Am thinking about an inline again. Is this heresy?

[Maven]

I'm thinking about purchasing a .50cal. in-line rifle again and have narrowed the choice to a Knight Big Horn, 26" Green Mtn. bbl. + breech plugs for shotgun, disk, and #11 primers; a T/C Black Diamond; or a T/C Omega. I'd be loading Lee REAL's or Lyman or T/C Maxi-Balls mostly with an occasional RB (at ~40grs. - 50grs. Pyro. or BP) for variety. What are your thoughts about them? Thanks in advance!

[jlchucker]

You need a traditional front stuffer with a big ole Hammer on the side! If you want a bolt action rifle, buy one that shoots smokeless cartridges!

[Maven]

jlc, See my post of 6/14/08 and posts last yr. re the Lyman Great Plains rifle.

[northmn]

Maven it is a free country and your money. You can buy anything you desire no matter how strange and unusual your tastes may be.

Northmn

[Geraldo]

Alright, I admit it, I have dabbled in heresy. I've got a lot of sidehammers, but I also have a couple of inlines. In fact, I'd have converted a M700 action to ML if it weren't so costly.

My experience is limited to Encore .50 barrels, but all of mine have shot very well with anything I stuffed in them. The current wisdom from those who have done more testing than me is that 209s aren't necessary, so I may convert to one of the small rifle primer systems as that's the only option in an Encore.

[Maven]

northmn, I am looking for good solid advice, not permission.

[45 2.1]

Since I don't own an inline, this is just what i've observed from those that do. All of them shoot sabots with the big pistols bullets or Barnes bullets. They ALL shoot like a modern centerfire rifles with those projectiles as to accuracy. I do not know of anyone who is shooting what you want to try. I would check to see what the twist is, seriously. If the twist is faster than 1:48, you will have accuracy problems with the projectiles you've listed. The inlines also have a new shotgun primer especially for them that won't blow groups like some shotshell primers will.

[ktw]

In addition to the twist rate issue, the inlines I have seen also tend to have pretty shallow rifling intended for use with the saboted bullets. I'd think you'd want deeper rifling to deal with soft lead conicals, at least out near the edges of their performance envelope.

I have not had any problems getting the shorter versions of the REALS to work well in my round ball guns (45, 54)

I guess you have to ask yourself why you want the gun. I live in a jurisdiction where there are no limits on the use of rifles during deer season. If I wanted to experiment with conicals over blackpowder I would be more inclined to do it in a cartridge gun (45/70, 45 colt carbine, contender, encore, H&R, etc).

If I was dead set on doing this in a muzzleloader I would look into badger/green mountain/etc barrels with a rifling depth and twist rate intended for lead conicals, then choose a rifle platform on which it would be easy to mount.

-ktw

[corey012778]

I say go with the knight. it is an conical shooter. most of the t/c's with there load system are not. I have started playing a little with roundballs out of my knight usak. did not get a great group but I only fired 5shots. I have patch and charge work to do to tighten it up.

[Maven]

corey, ktw, 45 2.1, That's the kind of information I am looking for and am indeed looking at one of the Knight rifles. Why an inline? Just something to play with and if .50cal., I already have RB molds of .490" & .495", but will have to purchase a Lee R.E.A.L. or Lyman or T/C Maxi-Ball mold. Why a Knight, specifically, their "Big Horn" model? First, because Knight rifles have Green Mtn. bbls. Second, the Big Horn comes with breech plugs for almost any primer type you can think of, including #11 caps and shotshell primers. Btw, a friend of mine has an inline (T/C I think) and has also found that the BP shotshell primers produce better groups than the standard [shotshell] primers. Thanks for the advice and keep it coming!

[alleyyooper]

My brother bought a T/C black dianond years ago right after the QLA thingy started showing up on T/C rifles. It won't shot a conical worth a hoot but works real well with sabots.
He bought a Knight KRB 7 for his son this spring and it shoots about any thing you stuff down the bore very well.
He is now thinking about a KRB 7 for his self since he is a caster and would like some thing different than his T/C Hawkins for shooting conicals.
Like me his eyes got as old as the rest of his body and feels it is sacareglis to mount a scope on and side lock. A peep works well I found till you get those stormy dark days.

:mrgreen: Al

[Boz330]

If you can find one, the Gonics shoot big slugs very well as that was what it was designed for. They have been out of production for several years though. I zeroed one for a client in the late 90s and it shot 4 inches at 200yrd with a 480 gr slug.

Bob

[rmb721]

I have a T/C Omega that I really like. I useT/C sabots and 240 grain 44 cal bullets with a 100 grain BP measure of loose Pyrodex. It cloverleafs three shots at 50 yards.

[Maven]

While I've had excellent results with T/C caplocks & bbls. in the past, I wonder about the accuracy of their barrels now, especially with conical CB's. As for Gonic Arms, I know their reputation for accuracy is unimpeachable, but alas, replacement parts are very difficult to find.

[alleyyooper]

People who own Whites swear by them when shooting Conicals.
Again out of production but can be found.

:mrgreen: Al

[corey012778]

People who own Whites swear by them when shooting Conicals.
Again out of production but can be found.

:mrgreen: Al
that is one I am looking out for but never can catch them on time. sold before I can figure out the fonds for one.

[725]

Maven,
I won a T/C Black Diamond and have wonederful results with it shooting T/C 250 gr Shockwaves. I mean to tell ya, it's ultra-reliable and accurate. If you want the grease on the fingers, spalling flint in the face, change the pan powder every half hour experience, the T/C isn't for you. If you want to put meat in the freezer, it would be hard to beat the T/C. Fortunately, I kind of like the grease, smell and all the rest of traditionals. But I do love the Black Diamond. Just haven't done any cast shooting with it yet. Once I found the shockwaves, I was good for anything around here. Also have the Rem 700ML. Again, it's accurate, reliable, etc., the only complaint I have is that the bolt needs to be cleaned the very day it's shot. The design lends itself to corrosion inside the bolt. No big deal. I usually have the chance to clean it properly after a days shooting and it's really not hard at all. Both solid performers. I have had a knight and loved it. (Had to sell because of those pesky bills one year). I think Knights are top shelf and would get another in a heart beat.
725

[stumpjumper]

i say go with the big horn. i have the lkII same as the big horn but a older model. i love mine. as far as accuracy mine will shoot 1 1/4 groups. 80 grains of pyrodex with rws #11 caps, and a sabot. i tried powerbelts. it did ok but i never tried any that you listed. good luck in your purchase.

[Junior1942]

>Am thinking about an inline again. Is this heresy?

Yes.

[Maven]

All, Thanks for your advice, which I certainly took to heart. After agonizing over the T/C v. Knight as well as the specific model of either brand that I desired (aesthetics, barrel length, caliber, accuracy, stock design, etc.), I ordered a .50cal. Knight Big Horn this morning. I also ordered 2 R.E.A.L. molds, 250gr. & 320gr. from Lee Precision shortly thereafter. In spite of the fast twist (1:28) & shallow riflling, my initial testing will be with .490" & .495" RB's with .018" patches, but only with 40gr. - 60gr. BP or Pyro. (don't yet know whether to try FFFg of FFg or Pyro. P v. RS first). Btw, I once had a Navy Arms Harpers Ferry dragoon pistol (percussion) designed to shoot Minie Balls (shallow rifling), which it did, but poorly. A .562" RB with a tight patch was impressively accurate @ 25yds. I expect the Knight to do much better than that. The second round of testing will be with the conicals with 80gr. FFg or Pyro. RS. I have nothing but admiration for T/C products (My caplocks were superbly accurate), but I thought the ability of the Big Horn to use many different primer types, was a major selling point, as was the Green Mtn. bbl. If Brownells stocks the Williams FP Legend Silver receiver sight I may consider adding it to the rifle in the near future: that will depend on how well (or poorly) I do with the open sights. And, you know I'll report my results here.


P.S. I practically fixated on the Knight & T/C offerings on Auction Arms & Gunbroker.com, but I was always a bit leery of purchasing, sight unseen, a used (but "nearly new") BP rifle after having done so last year: The Dixie TN Mtn. flintlock looked great in photos, but the bbl. was absolutely filthy, the lock less so. Fortunately it cleaned up well and is quite accurate.

[Maven]

the Knight Big Horn (NIB) arrived today and is a beauty: Nicely finished, nice trigger and well balanced. It even came with 5 saboted Pb conicals. Range testing, I'm sorry to say, will have to wait until Wednesday (darn!).

[Underclocked]

Maybe if people understood a bit more about inlines, they would not exhibit such disdain as it is mostly based upon ignorance.

Maybe some would even offer up some good group buy molds for inline conical shooters.

Maven, you need a good conical sized to your bore (proabably about .502 or .503. I would recommend you try some of the UC Shorts :) after Bullshop gets back in operation. The maxi's may shoot OK, but probably no better than that. You will be cheating yourself and your rifle of accuracy if you don't at least try some other conicals.

[Maven]

Underclocked, I purchased 2 R.E.A.L. molds from Lee, which arrived a few hours after I returned from the range with the Knight. They drop conicals of 250grs. & 320grs. and are .516", measured on the front driving band, but not on the parting line. I'm hoping they'll perform as well as the .490" RB + .010" patch combo did.

[Underclocked]

The REALs are a tapered bullet designed to fit bores of greatly varying dimension. They surely also require use of a short starter. A properly fitting straight sided conical, sized to barely engrave on the lands as it's loaded, is a delight to load and shoot - and often far more accurate. The Lee's and Maxi's are good to slug your bore and find out what you should really be shooting. ;)

Finding an off-the-shelf mold (un-tapered) at any reasonable price is a difficult thing for the .50 muzzleloader (unless yours has a very tight bore - in which case it might shoot the bullet from the Lee .500 S&W mold quite well http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/C501440rf.gif ). If it's a bit larger measure, the NoExcuses conicals are an option. But Bullshop offers a selection that can't be beat, IMO.

Overpowder wads sometimes help tighten groups with the REALs or any other conical.

[Maven]

Underclocked, Several things: First, I'm not new to muzzle loaders or conical bullets, having cast for and shot them for 38yrs.. As a matter of fact, my .45cal. T/C Hawken shot them very well: How's 5 shots touching @ 50 yds. with 70grs. Pyro. RS and Lee R.E.A.L.'s, Lyman Maxi-Balls (240grs.)and T/C Maxi-Balls (220grs.) using the open sights. As for the Knight, what makes you think it won't shoot Lee conicals? As I wrote earlier, I only hope it does as well with them as it did with the .490" RB's, which it wasn't supposed to do either. Also, there hasn't been a time that I haven't used a short starter with my muzzle loaders. Indeed, I can't imagine loading RB's or conicals without one. Lastly, thanks for the heads up about the Bullshop, which I may need to consider depending on the results of my next range session.


*The 5 swaged (?) HP bullets + 5 black sabots that were packaged with the rifle needed a plastic mallet applied to the short starter to, well, start down the bbl. Seating was easier, but the results weren't impressive: Minute of deer to be sure, but I'm looking for 2 m.o.a. or smaller groups...and a lot easier seating!

[725]

I've taken to shooting the REALs with a wool fiber wad over the powder (Wonder-Wad). Works OK in my ML's.

[Maven]

725, As Underclocked wrote in his post above, conicals do seem to shoot better with some kind of wad underneath them. While I don't have the lube-soaked Wonder Wads for the inline (have them for a BP revolver and they work great!), I did purchase a 1/2" arch punch to make my own overpowder wads. We'll see how well they do with the R.E.A.L.'s when I go to our range next week.

[Underclocked]

I use Wad 510-A from Track of the Wolf in my .50s. Can't beat the price and they work very well. They are a 1/8" thick, dry card wad.

Maven, did not mean to insult you in any way - just thought you might want to try something besides the old standards. And, if you do, I think you will see why I suggest those alternatives.

[Maven]

Underclocked, No offense taken! As it happens, I found 2 molds that have a longer bearing surface than either of the R.E.A.L.'s on one of the auction sites and will bid on them in the next several days. I wouldn't have looked there if not for your tip. As they are true conicals, I expect that they'd do very well. Meanwhile, I've got some cardstock to measure so that I can cut wads for the Lees. Thanks again for the advice!