250/3000 Marlin

[perotter]

A couple of days ago someone was showing me a Marlin(336?) that is chambered in 250/3000. There are absolutely no markings on this rifle. No numbers nor is there any words. There isn't even Marlin, an address, etc on it. There are no signs of anything being ground off either. This rifle is in very nice condition and he bought it very cheap at a farm auction a few years ago. Guess nobody wanted a 250/3000 Marlin.

A while back someone said that it is likely an experiment rifle that Marlin made and told him that Marlin did experiment with various calibers. He had thought when he bought it that some gunsmith had rebarreled it to 250/3000. How he's thinking it is a factory experimental.

I'm not sure if or how pointed bullets in the feed tube don't touch the primer in the round in front of it.

Anyone have any ideas? Or where one could look or go to find out if the factory did it?

[FergusonTO35]

Sounds like a one off custom job to me. Blunt nose bullets would have to be used in the mag of course, probably anything for the .25-35 WCF would work just fine.

[northmn]

Probably a re-barrel by a gunsmith. I bought my daughter a 300 SAvage bolt. Chilean Mauser with a Remington 300 Savage barrel. Was told once by a shooting friend that his dad was a gunsmith and re-barreled a lot Remington 722 with 308 barrels. Kind of think this rifle may have been a way of using the discarded barrels. Times have changed on gun smithing costs.

DEP

[OverMax]

I use to know a fellow who purchased 2-Model 62 Marlins in 256 Mag. Both guns were serial numbered but having no rifling. (smooth bore) Marlin contacted the fellow asking both rifles be returned to the gun dealer and would be swapped with 2 new 62s. (no cost) I don't know for sure what took place but I suspect the fellow never proceeded with the swap.

As far as a lever JM 336 in 250-3000 I highly doubt it was barreled in a Marlin factory without having any barrel engraving what-so-ever. The 250-3000 back in the day of JM Marlins as far as I know was a Savage introduction tightly controlled by Savage for their barrel marketing purposes only.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

For most of the 336's life the rifling would have been MicroGroove. Dating a 336 from the serial is pretty reliable, so it would be interesting to know if this one should have had it, but doesn't.

I can well imagine Marlin experimenting with cartridges like the .250-3000, and deciding against putting it into production. It might well be a safe and very useful cartridge for the rifle, if it feeds reliably, but they might not have felt there was enough demand. It is less easy to imagine them letting it get into private ownership, so I think it is much more likely to be some gunsmith's work.

Blunt bullets were surely a big argument against it, for a given size of flat becomes much more obtrusive in a .250 than in larger calibers. I don't think it is very practical to swage a spiral groove into the magazine, like the Remington Model 14. But it might be possible to solder a spiral metal strip onto the inside of the tube to keep each bullet off the following primer.

[perotter]

It does feed and eject reliably according to the owner. Also the ammo(several boxes) that came with it are pointed and were loaded be by a dealer. The dealer put a label on the boxes with his shops name and that the rounds were for this rifle.

BIS, it could be that there is spiral of some sort in the tube.

Does anyone here know if/when Marlin started to mark the receivers?

[perotter]

Never mind.

I found that Marlin did make a dozen or so in the 1970's. It did use some kind spiral magazine. They had extraction problems with normal loads and that might be why the ammo that came with the gun was handloads.

[Texas by God]

Layne Simpson wrote of those prototypes and they did use Rem 141 spiral tubes. That gun may be one if everything else on it indicates Marlin. Best, Thomas.

[Shawlerbrook]

Over on Marlinowners a member named swany had a post and picture of a Marlin in 250/3000. If I recall it was called Marlin 3600.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I use to know a fellow who purchased 2-Model 62 Marlins in 256 Mag. Both guns were serial numbered but having no rifling. (smooth bore) Marlin contacted the fellow asking both rifles be returned to the gun dealer and would be swapped with 2 new 62s. (no cost) I don't know for sure what took place but I suspect the fellow never proceeded with the swap.


There are probably people on Youtube now, posting about how useless the .256 Magnum is.

Here, if it comes through correctly, is a table of 336 serial dates, copied from the Wikipedia article, although I don't know if it applies to other Marlins:





Prefix(s)



1946
C



1947
D



1948
E



1949
F



1950
G



1951
H



1952
J



1953
K



1954
L



1955
M






Date
Prefix(s)



1956
N



1957
P



1958
R



1959
S



1960
T



1961
U



1962
V



1963
W



1964
Y,
Z


1965
AA






Date
Prefix(s)



1966
AB



1967
AC



1968
AD,
68


1969
69



1970
70



1971
71



1972







"Starting in 1973, the year of manufacture can be determined by subtracting the first two digits of the serial number from 100: Example: SN 2512345 would have been made in 1975 [100 - 25 = 75]."

I don't know if these prefixes applied to the cheaper model they marketed as the Glenfield 36 (previously the number of the Marlin model preceding the 336, or Glenfield 30. But I am fairly sure they had some sort of number. I believe Marlin always numbered their rifles, although it wasn't a legal requirement until 1968.

[Mk42gunner]

Assuming this rifle was rebarreled with no markings on the barrel, the serial number should still be on the action. Marlin used to put it on the lower tang, so the lever covers it.

I'm not sure when they moved it to the side of the receiver, possibly 1968???

Robert

[FergusonTO35]

Ballistics in Scotland: I don't know about all Glenfields but my Glenfield 30 was made in 1967 and has the AC prefix serial number. Also, the serial is on the lower tang, rather than the receiver as would be the case with a post-'68 gun.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've only had time for a quick look in Colonel Brophy's book, and didn't find anything yet about those prototypes. He was their technical manager, and it is the book on the subject, but maybe they are in there someplace. If there really isn't even a serial number, it would surely increase the chances of its being one of those prototypes. But it could also be a gunsmith job, possibly by someone who had heard of them.

The French successfully used pointed bullets in the tube-magazine and non-spiral Lebel, by means of an annular groove in the head intended to catch the bullet, and hard-jacketed round-nosed ones without it. But the Lebel case had a slight angle about half-way up the case body, to encourage it to lie at an angle in the magazine.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ballistics in Scotland: I don't know about all Glenfields but my Glenfield 30 was made in 1967 and has the AC prefix serial number. Also, the serial is on the lower tang, rather than the receiver as would be the case with a post-'68 gun.

That is about what I thought most likely. I think they probably followed earlier practice by having the receivers numbered as they were made, and by that time not lingering over a year in the bins before completion. Companies seem to have been more relaxed about long-term stockholding in earlier times, dropping parts on top of the bin and taking them off the top as required, as long as no significant design differences were involved.

[perotter]

I've only had time for a quick look in Colonel Brophy's book, and didn't find anything yet about those prototypes. He was their technical manager, and it is the book on the subject, but maybe they are in there someplace. If there really isn't even a serial number, it would surely increase the chances of its being one of those prototypes. But it could also be a gunsmith job, possibly by someone who had heard of them.

The French successfully used pointed bullets in the tube-magazine and non-spiral Lebel, by means of an annular groove in the head intended to catch the bullet, and hard-jacketed round-nosed ones without it. But the Lebel case had a slight angle about half-way up the case body, to encourage it to lie at an angle in the magazine.

The ones that Marlin made did have a serial number, used a spiral tube and the barrels are marked. I'm only familiar with Marlin 1894's and I do know now that I didn't look in the correct area for a serial number. Next chance I get I'm going to have a look again at this rifle to check about the .

It does look like this rifle that was sold a few years ago. Next chance I get I'll look to see if I missed the spiral tube, but at this point I'd say that it was done by a gunsmith.

FWIW. The 250/3000 was very popular where this rifle came from. Back in the days when a man or kid had only 1 centerfire rifle and hunted both deer and fox it was the thing to have. I think every guy, 3 or 4 of them, I went to high school with that did both of these huntings had 250/3000 rifles.

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-1569a-extremely-rare-experimental-marlin-model-3000-lever-action-rifle-40379/

[perotter]

From the link.

"*EXTREMELY RARE EXPERIMENTAL MARLIN MODEL 3000 LEVER ACTION RIFLE. SN 27037109. Cal. 250-3000SAV, 24″ rnd bbl, 2/3 spiraled magazine, serrated ramp front with bead sight and hood, Marlin flip-up sporting rear sight. Left side of bbl is marked “THE MARLIN FIREARMS CO. / NORTH HAVEN, CONN. U.S.A. MODEL”. Left side just behind rear sight “250 SAV.” Usual Marlin Model 336 receiver with serial number on top tang. Mounted with lightly figured walnut, uncheckered pistol grip, Monte Carlo, black hard rubber grip cap with white line spacer, Marlin hard rubber buttplate with white line spacer, fixed sling swivel 3-1/4″ from toe and Marlin bull’s eye 4-1/4″ from toe. Standard forend with nose cap with fixed sling swivel. Accompanying this gun are a series of correspondence between Mr. Rohal and outdoor writer Jim Carmichel. In a letter dated May 13, 1993 on Outdoor Life letterhead addressed to Mr. Rohal discussing his Marlin Model 3000 Lever Action Rifle chambered in .25/3000 Savage cartridge identifying the serial number of his gun “27037109”, it goes on to state his conversations with the Marlin Company about producing rifle in this caliber and the fact that it made it to final marketing due to the original box with printed label. It also goes on to state that he may have had something to do with changing their plans. He explained to them that due to pressures, the cartridge had difficult extraction and that the pressure was borderline safe in this action. He expects that his observation coincided with their own and the advice was heeded. As a result, we each own highly unusual Marlin rifles of which I know of only two in existence. I expect there may be another 1/2 dozen or so floating around somewhere. Another letter from Jim Carmichel to Mr. Rohal dated June 7, 1994 stating that yesterday he mailed, via UPS, the Marlin in 250 Savage. It goes on to tell of a transparency showing him with the rifle and a Prong Horn he shot in Montana back in ’73. A third letter dated the same day identifies Mr. Carmichel’s ownership of this rifle. There is also a letter dated June 7, 1993 written on Marlin Firearm Company letterhead telling Mr. Rohal that they experimented with chambering a 250/3000 in 1973. The letter continues, I can tell you that my records show only 4 were produced. Bill Osborne’s recollection is that we only made approximately six of the 250/3000 chambering. Four are still in the R & D department. This suggests that one or more guns were not processed through our inventory control system. You should certainly consider your 250/3000 a rare item. It is signed “Robert W. Behn, V.P. of Sales and Marketing.” Also accompanying gun is orig box with printed end label showing Model 3000, 250 SAVAGE caliber with hand-written serial number. Additional information and correspondence for this and the next gun (which is consecutively numbered to this gun) is an article from the July 1978 American Rifleman written by L.R. Wallack on the history of Marlin’s 336. It details the evolution of the Marlin lever action rifle concentrating on the current 336. A paragraph talks about Marlin experimenting with the 250/3000 caliber and using the spiral magazine reminiscent of the Remington slide action to keep pointed bullets from contacting the primer in front and mentions that he has one of these guns. There is a test target and additional letter on Bob Wallack letterhead to Mr. Anthony Aeschliman, Marlin Firearms Company, talking about taking the 250/3000 out to the range equipped with a 4X Marlin scope and target shows about a 1″ group. There is also a letter on Marlin Firearm Company letterhead, dated November 13, 1980, discussing the 336 and 250/3000 and ten rifles being made for evaluation. It goes on to state that they would use the old spiral magazine tube similar to one used by Remington. The rifles were successful but Marlin management felt there could be a problem with extraction with some hand-loaded ammunition and the project was shelved. It identifies gun number “27037108” as acquired by L.R. Wallack being made in 1973. It is one of only 10 ever made. Signed “William S. Brophy, Senior Technical Manager.”"