For thought and meditation

[rl69]

The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.—Psalm 19:9 (http://harvest.us3.list-manage.com/track/click?u=4f108f827aed8d503b5fca9fa&id=3905e776a0&e=3dd732485b)When it comes to God's judgment, sometimes people will say they believe in a God who is not judgmental. That sounds good, but here is what they are really saying: "I believe in a God who doesn't care about right and wrong." To put it more bluntly, they are saying they believe in a God they just made up in their heads.

If God really is loving, then God also will be just. That is what the Bible tells us. The love of God makes Him a righteous judge. Know this: No one will be in heaven who deserves to be there. Nor will there be anyone in hell who does not deserve to be there. No one will be in heaven who went there unwillingly. And no one will be in hell who didn't go there willingly.

God won't force anyone to go to heaven. He won't say, "Get up to heaven right now!" You don't have to go if you don't want to. On the other hand, no one will be in hell who did not go there willingly.

I like the way J. I. Packer summed it up: "Scripture sees hell as self-chosen. . . . Hell appears as God's gesture of respect for human choice. All receive what they actually chose. Either to be with God forever, worshipping Him, or without God forever, worshipping themselves."

How could a God of love send people to hell? He doesn't. He won't. If you end up in hell, then you went there willingly because you rejected His offer of forgiveness. You rejected Jesus Christ and all that He did for you. But if you ask God to forgive you of your sin, He will remove it from you and give you a change, a transformation in your life. You will be born again

[square butte]

Appreciate the morning study - Thanks rl69

[Pine Baron]

Thank you rl, fundamental truth for sure.

[Boaz]

....It's a choice . We have been given a choice using our freewill . It's so very simple that it confounds many .

[Ickisrulz]

When we speak of making a choice it can be misleading. It's not like all non-Christians flat out refuse to believe. The Parable of the Sower gives the the clues on how people respond to the Gospel. For some people the message is stolen through the work of Satan, for some they have no depth or strength to cling to the message, for others they have too many things going on in their lives for the Gospel to take hold. Finally, for some everything lines up and they accept the Gospel message and become followers of Christ.

Then there's those who never heard the Gospel. There are no loop holes described in the New Testament for these people. They are lost. That's why we spread the message. The people didn't refuse anything. They never heard the Gospel.

I have just about dismissed the idea that the fate of the lost is an everlasting place of torment. There is ample scriptural evidence that the lost are punished and then obliterated from existence. This matches the idea that everything God does is because he is loving. The lost finally find peace in their removal from the universe and their own fallen nature that causes them pain.

[rl69]

Rmans 2:14-16

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, 15since they (http://biblehub.com/greek/3748.htm) show that (http://biblehub.com/greek/1731.htm)the (http://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm) work (http://biblehub.com/greek/2041.htm) of the (http://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm) Law (http://biblehub.com/greek/3551.htm) is written (http://biblehub.com/greek/1123.htm) on (http://biblehub.com/greek/1722.htm) their (http://biblehub.com/greek/846.htm) hearts, (http://biblehub.com/greek/2588.htm)their (http://biblehub.com/greek/846.htm) consciences (http://biblehub.com/greek/4893.htm) also (http://biblehub.com/greek/2532.htm) bearing witness, (http://biblehub.com/greek/4828.htm) and their (http://biblehub.com/greek/240.htm) thoughts (http://biblehub.com/greek/3053.htm) either (http://biblehub.com/greek/3342.htm) accusing (http://biblehub.com/greek/2723.htm) or (http://biblehub.com/greek/2228.htm) defending them. (http://biblehub.com/greek/626.htm) 16This will come to pass on that day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.

[Ickisrulz]

Rmans 2:14-16

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, 15since they (http://biblehub.com/greek/3748.htm) show that (http://biblehub.com/greek/1731.htm)the (http://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm) work (http://biblehub.com/greek/2041.htm) of the (http://biblehub.com/greek/3588.htm) Law (http://biblehub.com/greek/3551.htm) is written (http://biblehub.com/greek/1123.htm) on (http://biblehub.com/greek/1722.htm) their (http://biblehub.com/greek/846.htm) hearts, (http://biblehub.com/greek/2588.htm)their (http://biblehub.com/greek/846.htm) consciences (http://biblehub.com/greek/4893.htm) also (http://biblehub.com/greek/2532.htm) bearing witness, (http://biblehub.com/greek/4828.htm) and their (http://biblehub.com/greek/240.htm) thoughts (http://biblehub.com/greek/3053.htm) either (http://biblehub.com/greek/3342.htm) accusing (http://biblehub.com/greek/2723.htm) or (http://biblehub.com/greek/2228.htm) defending them. (http://biblehub.com/greek/626.htm) 16This will come to pass on that day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.




In response to my post? Belief in the Gospel and personal conduct are not the same thing. A person that follows their conscience and has never heard the message will be lost.

[Preacher Jim]

Ickisrulz I agree with your post and call all to be the witnesses Jesus ordered us to be and quit waiting for someone else to speak for the Lord

[rl69]

Sorry Ickisrulz my wife was ready to go before I could finish my post.

Jesus said that " all that God has chosen for me will be drawn to me " if you put that with the scripture in Romans we see that we all have the spirit working in our harts and if we choose to follow it we will find Christ

[Ickisrulz]

Sorry Ickisrulz my wife was ready to go before I could finish my post.

Jesus said that " all that God has chosen for me will be drawn to me " if you put that with the scripture in Romans we see that we all have the spirit working in our harts and if we choose to follow it we will find Christ

John 6:44?

It seems this is a piece of the puzzle. But I don't think it implies that all non-believers flat out refuse to believe the Gospel. It is more complicated than that. Some never hear the Gospel; they cannot hear unless a messenger reaches them. Some hear but the results are unfavorable either due to a defect within themselves or the work of outside forces. Have you ever met a person who would like to believe but cannot?

Sure some are willfully disobedient to the message because it interferes with how they want to live. The pharisees are a good example. They saw Jesus doing miracles and knew his words were true. They killed him anyway.

[rl69]

Yes John 6:44-46

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 (http://biblehub.com/john/6-45.htm)“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OFGOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 (http://biblehub.com/john/6-46.htm)“Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 (http://biblehub.com/john/6-47.htm)“


I agree those that never hear the gospel can't refuse to believe. What I see it saying is that we all have the law written on our harts and if we choose to follow that we will seek out and find Jesus

[Boaz]

Pharisees didn't kill him . He was predestined to die for our sins . He gave his life with suffering , ridicule and imposed 'shame' . He out talked , out did and put them to shame . He paid our debt , he bought our salvation with his holy blood through suffering , he taught , he guided , he loved and died ,he was resurrected and lives now .....he lives now .

[Ickisrulz]

Pharisees didn't kill him . He was predestined to die for our sins . He gave his life with suffering , ridicule and imposed 'shame' . He out talked , out did and put them to shame . He paid our debt , he bought our salvation with his holy blood through suffering , he taught , he guided , he loved and died ,he was resurrected and lives now .....he lives now .

On the human side Pilate, Herod, the High Priest, chief priests, Judas, pharisees and a certain number of Judeans were responsible for Jesus' death. Everything else you said I agree with. But the humans involved in Jesus' murder were sinners.

[Boaz]

On the human side Pilate, Herod, the High Priest, chief priests, Judas, pharisees and a certain number of Judeans were responsible for Jesus' death. Everything else you said I agree with. But the humans involved in Jesus' murder were sinners.

Agreed they were directly/immediately involved in his death . But what of the whole crowd that screamed.....Crucify him...Crucify him ! Even after Pilot had given them more than one opportunity to save him saying ..I find no fault in this man . The guards that beat and scourged him finishing by dressing him in purple with a crown of thorns to mock him . The intended humiliation of bearing his own cross . The soldiers that nailed his hands and feet to the cross and raised it up then gambled for his clothes . The thief that mocked him even as he shared the same fate .
The disciples that hid or ran , Peter that denied even knowing him three times before daylight .

Yes they were all sinners . WE are still sinners.....would you agree ?

[Ickisrulz]

Agreed they were directly/immediately involved in his death . But what of the whole crowd that screamed.....Crucify him...Crucify him ! Even after Pilot had given them more than one opportunity to save him saying ..I find no fault in this man . The guards that beat and scourged him finishing by dressing him in purple with a crown of thorns to mock him . The intended humiliation of bearing his own cross . The soldiers that nailed his hands and feet to the cross and raised it up then gambled for his clothes . The thief that mocked him even as he shared the same fate .
The disciples that hid or ran , Peter that denied even knowing him three times before daylight .

Yes they were all sinners . WE are still sinners.....would you agree ?

My point was that although Jesus' sacrifice was according to God's will, those that took part in it were still sinners...murderers. They killed him.

[Blackwater]

Great post, RL. Would that all understood this subtle difference that makes such a great difference in results.

And guys, there are those who interpret the scriptures very strictly, and those who interrelate various packages that they believe are inextricably linked. I think one of the reasons we were ALL instructed to "study to show thyself approved," was so that we wouldn't get haughty, like the San Hedrin and so many others were towards Christ. I myself, FWIW, doubt any of us has the true insight into what all Christ meant by the messages He left us to rule ourselves by. And maybe, the reason he left it for us to rule OURSELVES by is so we wouldn't get haughty enough to argue such points of theology. After all, what he left us isn't theology, but Truth. What we make of it is what constitutes theology, and that's a very significant difference. "Ye shall know them by their deeds" comes to mind here.

I doubt very seriously whether the "strict interpretation" and the "interrelated verses" dichotomy will ever be settled with finality while any of us yet live. Just "study to show thyself approved," and don't judge others, or their interpretations, and we will all get along much more like we're supposed to as Christians, I believe. I've seen it go both ways, and the times it's been agreed to just keep searching are the ones that always seemed filling and satisfactory. It's time we started concentrating on our commonalities, and NOT on the things that separate us, one from the other.

It's good to discuss these things, but only at the right time and in the right context, and with the right spirit within us. And those aren't easy nor consistently achieved by many of us. Christ reveals Himself and His will to us gradually, and I'd dare say that not one of us on either side of this age-old controversy really has a full bead on the matter. And Christ didn't leave His words for us to fuss and argue over. He left them for our edification. Let's use them as He intended for us to, so that we might be closer to what He intended us to be as His followers. That really ought not be all that hard to do, should it?

[Boaz]

My point was that although Jesus' sacrifice was according to God's will, those that took part in it were still sinners...murderers. They killed him.

Of course the murdered/killed him and without reason . It took a lot of them to get it done .
Would you agree it was predestined that he was the sacrificial lamb sent to save us ?

[Ickisrulz]

Of course the murdered/killed him and without reason . It took a lot of them to get it done .
Would you agree it was predestined that he was the sacrificial lamb sent to save us ?

In post 12 you said the pharisees didn't kill him.

The plan to send the Son of God to die for man was established before God created Adam and Eve. The question then is why go through with the creation of humans if it will result in such pain for both God and man?

[Boaz]

Your off down another rabbit trail .

[Ickisrulz]

Your off down another rabbit trail .

And so what?

[Boaz]

LOL, your honest . Maybe next time ! Love ya brother .