Does lead hardness matter for powder coat

[Rp-]

Just started casting. I can dent the bullets with my finger nail with some pressure. Just wondered if hardness was an issue when powder coating (i.e.: too hard or too soft causing problems).

Im using wheel weights but wondered if i need harder of softer alloy.

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[runfiverun]

hardness does matter, but not as much with the powder jacket.
you can generally get away with a softer alloy by using it.

[Rp-]

Am i ok using wheel weights?

As i understand they harden over a few days after casting and after a few months they soften back to the original hardness. Is this correct?

I also understand that powder coating and air cooling causes them to soften. Is this correct?

Is there any need to heat treat and water quench after they are coated? And if i did so would i end up with too hard of a bullet to be efficient? (target only, I don't need to expand and I don't care if they shatter)

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[OS OK]

From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm)

Read first...ask second. You will get grounded right here and answer many of your questions before posting. Otherwise you'll run into one of the old greybacks here having a rough morning and he'll accuse you of wanting to be spoon fed!...:bigsmyl2:

[bpatterson84]

Well, I'm using straight range scrap (around 11 I think?) and shake and bake PC, my 440gr 500S&W loads are just fine without a gascheck these days using 39gr H110. Lotsa pressure. Same with 240's in a 44mag with a top load of HS-6. No bore issues or accuracy degradation. The huge upside to softer alloys is they will mushroom upon impact, hard cast needs alot of velocity to do so if at all.

In a rifle may be another story. Elvisammo on youtube is doing ok with it in .223 @ 2500fps, think he runs a 15brnl hardness? I will be experimenting in the coming months with rifle and softer alloys over 2000fps, we'll know more then. Anyone have experience here?

[paul h]

Yes, hardness matters. Powder coating does provide protection from leading from gas cutting and friction, but gas cutting and friction aren't the only causes of leading.

Leading can also be caused by the rifling of the barrel shearing the bullet. This is exacerbated in fast twist barrels. This can be dealt with either by using a harder alloy, and/or using a gas check.

[runfiverun]

good answer Paul.
lead takes a little while to settle down to it actual alloy hardness.
when you first cast it it is dead soft for a bit and starts hardening this can take 10-14 days for everything to get where it's going.
if it is water dropped it can take up to 2-3 months for everything to start really settling down.
you will be super close to the final bhn in about 3 weeks but the bhn can vary up and down a bit until everything has 'cured'.

when you make your own lube it takes a bit of time for the lube to settle in and be in it's final state too.
the viscosity right after cooling down, or even later that day, and in 3 day's can be vastly different.

[Rp-]

... you'll run into one of the old greybacks here having a rough morning and he'll accuse you of wanting to be spoon fed!...:bigsmyl2:

I learned it from Obama! Its someone elses fault.

Ill read up before i bug you guys again. I am a rookie here and have only been reloading for a year and a half now. I have only put about 5k-6k rounds through my presses and have only just started casting... I look around on here when i can but i don't always find the answers i need so please forgive my ignorance.

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[OS OK]

I learned it from Obama! Its someone elses fault.

Ill read up before i bug you guys again. I am a rookie here and have only been reloading for a year and a half now. I have only put about 5k-6k rounds through my presses and have only just started casting... I look around on here when i can but i don't always find the answers i need so please forgive my ignorance.

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It ain't ignorance Pard...that read oughta be required for everyone here as members. I think it's that beneficial. Bookmark it, you'll be back there over and over again before you're through. I'm always going there to see if I remember something correctly or get a new angle I've not experienced.

To one question, you'll receive many varied answers from the hobbyist collective...but, from an acclaimed and proven expert in the field, you get one answer and you can usually hang your hat on it.

The only difference is when new technology's are mixed into casting...as with the PC, Powder Coating, other coatings and original lube blends...here in this forum is prolly the only one-stop-shop you can trust as many members actually do test and publish results in the form of facts and figures, pictures of claims, etcetera.
Empirical evidence over the spoken word always Trumps the old adage.."Well I heard it was so in so...".
You get my drift...?

charlie

PS...You Newbs are NOT A BOTHER...DON'T GET THAT IDEA. Fellas here love to share.

[Rp-]

It ain't ignorance Pard...that read oughta be required for everyone here as members.

My ignorance was not knowing about it!

When i got into guns in high school i had a friend who taught me a lot about them. When i got into reloading a guy offered to teach me in his commercial shop (parabellum research). I didn't have anyone to teach me about casting.

I watched plenty of videos and read plenty of articles. My problem is i don't know what questions to ask until I'm wrist deep in lead wondering why something isn't looking like it was supposed to.

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[runfiverun]

well thankfully you have someplace to ask.
when I got going on my own, 10 years after initially learning the basics as a kid, I had nothing to work with and had to just kind of figure it out.
it didn't take me too long to figure out that melting ww's in my LEE 20 lb pot wasn't gonna cut it. :lol:

[Walter Laich]

experiment and remember...

your mistakes go back in the pot so there is no evidence for folks to see

[slim1836]

We all started out sometime, glad you have you on board. Learn from your mistakes, but most of all, look out for the tinsel fairy.
I had no one to mentor me in the arts of reloading or casting, but through research I've learned a lot. It is a work in progress, one step at a time.
Ask all you want if you can't find it, this site is a wealth of knowledge.

Slim

[Chris C]

My ignorance was not knowing about it!

I watched plenty of videos and read plenty of articles. My problem is i don't know what questions to ask until I'm wrist deep in lead wondering why something isn't looking like it was supposed to.

Boy can I relate to that comment!!!!! Thank God there are good people on these forums who have traveled this path and are still more than willing to extend a hand to those of us climbing behind them.............even if the "hand" is sometimes a link to read something on our own. Thank God for those guys.

[BNE]

Reading and searching this site will get you answers fast. AND save you a lot of mistakes.

To your original question.... It depends, What gun, what speed etc. I have shot 150 grain, powder coated bullets from 50% Clip on Wheel weights (COWW) + 50% pure lead +2% Tin from my 357 at 1,200 fps with no leading. The size of your bullet Vs. the size of your barrel are important also. Powder coating has been compared to copper plating. My experience would suggest this is accurate.

Welcome to the forum.

[Wolftracker]

I've shot pure soft powder coated 45 ACP at 900 fps with no problem so a harder alloy should be fine at most handgun velocities.

[Rp-]

First batch was toast. Splotchy, uneven, over-temped, and i learned not to use foil to cook them....

A kittle more research and im trying another method of dry tumbling in powder. This method mentioned a thin coat, pull just as they melt, then recoat, then cook as usual. Well i tried this one tonight. As soon as i pulled them and dropped them in the powder for a second coat they pretty much turned into a ball. Just pulled them out and they are pretty uneven still.

I cat seem to get a good even coat while shaking them. I've tried using Ziploc bags (with and without plastic BBs) in a tumbler and I've tried using a small plastic bucket and shaking the sh*t out of it...

I have read and watched 50 different ways to do it and these looked like the easiest ways. Is there a better way im missing short of buying a PC gun?

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[BNE]

Cool whip container with black airsoft BBs works well for me and I believe most who try it. One coat should be plenty.

Fill the container 1" to 1.5" deep with the ASBBs.

Add a small handful of bullets. (Go with a small number of room temperature bullets at first. As you gain experience you will know the amount you can add.)

Add spoonful of powder. (Once your BBs are covered, you will only need to add a little.)


Shake them round and round, THEN up and down. I try to shake about 20 seconds round and round and 10 up and down.

Open the container and all the balls should be completely covered in the powder. Your bullets should be also. You can then pull the bullets out with tweezers and place them on your cooking tray.


400F for 12 minutes works well for me. Start with a hot oven. If in doubt heat longer.


It helps to have a good powder like Smoke offers on this sight. Also, coverage does not have to be PERFECT for them to work. I tried the ESPC gun and hated it. Messy, slow and does not cover the bottom of the bullet.


Hope this helps.

[Rp-]

I was actually thinking more along the lines of taking a piece of metal and drilling 50-100x .25" holes, then adding bullets nose down in the holes. This way if i do spray them im getting the bases and enough of the ogive to cover anything contacting the barrel.

I dont have a cool whip container and the airsoft BBs i got are tan and green. Maybe this is the problem?


Eta: i have read 20 minutes for the cook time. My first batch turned maroon which i guessed was too high of heat.

This time i put an oven thermometer in the back and got it right to 400° and right at "20 minutes past glazed". A few were darker maroon but most still red.


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[BNE]

The container needs to have the triangular shape around the number 5 stamped into it. The cool whip container is not critical, but it is readily available. I have used the green BBs also. They seem to work fine. I also store my powder in a sealed zip lock with a desiccant pack in it.

Sounds like your oven oven may have hot /cold spots.

If the bullets pass the smash test, the coating should be fine.

[Rp-]

The bucket is number 2 plastic. I guess I'll have to find some of that number 5 stuff.

The first batch did pass the smash test with 1, 3, and 5 blows. I didn't check the second batch.

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[LuckyDog]

Have you checked out the stickies in this forum?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?184-Coatings-and-Alternatives

One of them gave a REALLY good description on how to coat and what to use. ( I hope I am pointing you in the right direction) Been awhile since I read the article. Are you using Harbor Freight Red? Use that as a search term (HF RED) (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/google.php?cx=partner-pub-6216953551359885%3A1942134700&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=HF+Red&sa.x=0&sa.y=0) and you should get some good links.

[Rp-]

Yes HF red. Ill read up some more and if i have another fail im going to buy some diff powder from the guy on this forum that sells it.

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[PBaholic]

Yes HF red

- Use Harbor Freight Red to start out. Get fancy later...
- Use a smaller container, mine holds about a cup. I grab a handfull (40, 230 grain .45's) at a time.
- Make sure the Tupperware container has a #5 triangle on the bottom.
- Less powder is better. Your boolits should not be swimming in powder. I don't use bb's in mine.
- Shake it longer than you really want too. Be aggressive, and turn it upside down a few times. I do 30 seconds.
- If you have trouble getting good coverage, heat your boolits up a little first in your oven before you coat them.

I bake for 20 minutes past the point where the powder turns fully shiny at 400 degrees, usually 25 minutes. Watch out with harder lead, as it may melt at 400 degrees. Test a small batch first.

If you are setting each boolit down individually, as you want them perfect, use a large tweezers to grab them out of the Tupperware. Tap the tweezers with a boolit on the top lip of the Tupperware to shake off the excess powder. Place on Reynolds Wrap "Non-Stick" aluminum foil.

Don't bother water dropping your boolits, as you will lose all hardening when baking.

Unless you are doing something weird, you can get away with softer lead. I had trouble with PC .38's made out of BHN 5 pure lead tumbling at the target, but BHN 10 works fine. I can probably get away with softer, but I have a lot of BHN 10.

I use a Lee molds and do not size mine before powder coating. I DO size them afterwards, but do not get any PC loss. It seems the boolit must get squeezed to the right size, as the only PC I get is from the drip edge on the bottom of the boolit.

If you are doing this right, you should be able to take your PC Boolit, and smash it to 1/4" thick and get no real flaking of the PC.

The upside is, very little smoke when shooting. No leading. I can shoot 1,000 rounds or more before I clean my guns.

[sw282]

Rp- After spending 20 years as a US ARMY Instructor let me tell you front and center.

There's only ONE DUMB question... That's the question NOT ASKED