Sucessful load ! Whoo hoo !!!

[bcp477]

My quest has ended sucessfully. The quest for the holy grail !!! (Well, no, not really...but MY quest "for the holy grail"...in a manner of speaking.)

I have found a cast/ PP load that works nicely in in my sportered (8 x 57) M48, with 20" barrel. That load being about 31 grains of IMR-3031, with a pinch of cotton fibre filler added, under a 170 grain, plain-base, flat-point bullet....BHN of 15....the bullet sized to .314" with a Lee die.... paper-patched with two wraps of ordinary lined notebook paper, to a final dry diameter of .324"....and lubed with one coat of Lee Liquid Alox.

The bullet is actually one designed for the old .32/40 Winchester....available from an outfit called Hunters Supply, in Regina, New Mexico. As for results, this load will produce 1.5" or smaller groups at 100 yards with complete consistency (if I do MY part)....using the aforementioned M48, equipped with a 4 x long-eye-relief scope. The load chronos at around 2060 fps avg., with an SD of 22 and an extreme spread for ten shots of 74 fps.

The barrel on my M48 is a military "takeoff" barrel, a spare (apparently) never mounted before on a rifle, with a pristine bore. I cut and crowned the barrel at 20"....and it is free-floated on the rifle. The action and first two inches of barrel are epoxy bedded into the modified (cut-down) military stock. The scope mount I made myself, by machining down a spare rear sight base, converting it to accept Weaver-type rings (I use an all-steel, windage-adjustable ring made by Millet, which they call "Angle-loc"). The scope, which I finally, reluctantly adopted because my aging eyes will no longer work well with ANY iron sights, is a Swift Premier, model SP-661M, 4 x 32. Zeroing was no problem, as I carefully bore-sighted the gun after mounting the scope (today was the FIRST time out with the scope in place)....I had all shots inside a 6" diameter circle within 5 rounds....followed by 20 used to refine the scope adjustments. The cast/ PP load mentioned above shoots about 2 1/2" low and about 1" or so to the right - so next time out I will zero for THAT load at 100 meters (maximum distance for my local range).

As I said in the beginning.....Whoo hoo !!! Please pardon my boyish enthusiasm,
but I am more excited about shooting than in a long time. Now I can kiss all over-priced jacketed bullets goodbye....and I have a good 150 yard or so (max.) whitetail load for the coming fall (as well as a very acceptable target load)....which is cheap to shoot. I also have the fun of saying that I did it myself....MY way....from building the rifle to developing the load (and the paper-patching technique).

A few words on the paper-patching. Observations only, really....as I claim absolutely NO expertise in this field, or anything else.

1) First, the lined notebook paper seems to work best for me, even though it is a bit thicker than the vellum I have tried. The vellum is about 0.0020" thick, while the lined paper is about 0.0025" dry. However, after patching the .314" diameter bullets with both, using two wraps....the final dry diameter of the bullets (wrapped with the vellum) is about .325", or slightly less...while the lined paper bullets are about .324", which definitely works best for my rifle. So, it would seem that the lined paper shrinks more as it dries.....leading to the conclusion that the important factor is NOT the dry thickness of the paper, but rather the dry diameter of the PATCHED BULLET, wrapped with whatever paper works best. So, perhaps one should always test-patch some bullets with a prospective patching paper, before concluding whether the paper will be workable....rather than simply measuring the dry sheets beforehand.
Duh....this seems very obvious (I'm sure it is to those of you with lots of PP experience)....but it is a bit of a revelation for a newby like me.

2) Only ONE coat of Lee Liquid Alox is needed, on the patched bullets (if that is the lube you choose). I used to apply two coats, on the theory that one just didn't "seem" to be enough. Wrong....one IS enough. I have obtained better accuracy with ONE coat, every time.

3) It makes NO difference whether the bases of the paper jackets are twisted to close them...or folded over. I used to carefully fold them over, then glue on a base disc of paper, to make a nice, flat bottom. Totally unnecessary....a waste of effort and time, in fact. Now, I just carefully twist the end closed, being careful not to tear the damp paper, then trim the twist back somewhat with a sharp scissors. Voila...finished...and good enough.

4) The "standard" technique of cutting the patches on the bias, at about a 30 degree angle does not seem necessary. I patched my test bullets with straight ends....simply cutting the patch strips to the right length AS I patch each bullet, paying no particular attention to the exact angle of the cut (trying to cut them straight with scissors, but not always suceeding). This made no difference at all to my results. Now, I make my patches by simply cutting strips of the patching paper about 25 mm wide (about 1 inch)....and trimming to length as I patch the bullets. I usually get 3 or 4 bullets from each 8.5" long strip of paper, depending on whether I tear one patch or not. Of course, I do roll the patches on the bullets so that the end will not conflict with the right hand rotation of the bullets in the barrel (I wrap my bullets with the nose-end to my left, rolling away from me). But, the angle of the ends seems not to matter, in my experience. I do seal my patches with a tiny line of yellow glue, being careful to keep the glue OFF any portion of the bullet....perhaps this has something to do with the cut angle not being an issue.

5) I do not know if the cotton filler that I have tried in this load is really needed....that is, whether it actually makes any positive difference, but I decided to add it only on the theory that it probably wouldn't hurt. The results are fine, as stated above...but I will test the same load without it. Certainly a load of 31 grains of 3031 does NOT require any filler for safety, not in a case the size of the 8 x 57. I will test both ways...and report my results.

6) Lastly, for those who are considering PP'ing....do try it. It really IS easy, cheap and effective. It is also easy to learn. Heck, if I can get such good results with so little effort...I would bet that anyone can !


Sorry for the long post, guys. I just wanted to share my good fortune. Thanks for listening (reading).

[docone31]

I know how it feels. After years of thinking about it, and being afraid to, I tried it.
WHAT THE HECK WAS I AFRAID OF?
I am going to try your square cut. I did mine with the 30* and it is time consuming. Square should work. The patch dries hard.
Have you tried a cigarette roller yet?
BAM, rolled.
Simple.
I like paper patching. My *1MKIII draws attention with its heavy barrel, stock, and stock cheek rest. Now with the patches, some of the old timers stop and look.
Sure makes a shiney bore when it is cleaned.

[bcp477]

Yes and another advantage....which you mentioned. The bore is surprisingly clean, even after shooting about 75 rounds, as I did today. I had not thought of a cigarette roller. This is, I assume, a machine or device that can be purchased inexpensively ? The way I am doing the job (now) is simple and easy, but I would certainly consider such a contraption, if it were simple and low-cost. I think that I will NEVER go back to gas-checked bullets, let alone jacketed ones, now. I am truly hooked on PP'ing !

[VintageRifle]

Did you feed these one at a time or load them into the magazine and have the bolt strip them off as a regular round would be?

[PatMarlin]

Outstanding... :drinks:

[docone31]

A cigarette roller is a simple plastic unit that is small enough to fit in a shirt pocket. It has a vinyl sleeve and two rollers. They are very inexpensive and very simple to use.
You cut the patch, dip it in water, put it into the roller, place the casting on top of it where you want the patch to be on the ogive, close the roller and away you go.
Very simple.

[compass will]

I bet if you ran a screw through the one end to hold the bullet in the same place, you would be able to just drop the bullet in with the base against the screw, then feed the paper in with the paper edge against the edge of the rolling machine, and it would line up perfect every time!

[floodgate]

Can someone post a source for a cigarette roller that works well for paper patching? Sounds like a neat idea - unless I get nailed for possessing "paraphernalia"!

Fg

[docone31]

This is the machine I use.
http://www.rollyourown.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=242
A person can get one at any convience store, or smoke shop.

[compass will]

This is the machine I use.
http://www.rollyourown.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=242
A person can get one at any convience store, or smoke shop.

But it's more fun to go into a "head shop" to buy one. :roll:
First check the parking lot to make sure the cops ain't staking the place out.

[floodgate]

docone31:

Thanks!

Fg

[docone31]

I tried, hand wrapping, I made the board with the groove. Nada, no wraps.
I read on this forum somewhere that maybe one of these machines might work. My shop is right next to one of those infamous head shops. I made the owner's wedding ring for him and his wife to be.
I asked him if he had one, he gave me several, with extra vinyls.
I took the casting, rolled it onto one of the strips I had cut, made my mark and cut the ends at 30*. I wet the piece, put it into the machine, set the casting onto it where I figuired it went, and closed it and rolled a wrapped bullet.
BadaBing, Badaboom! Did another 49. Learned about the machine, made 50 wraps. Just like that.
Even if there is a wrinkle wrapping, the machine rolls it into the wrap. It acts like a squeege so the excess water is removed while wrapping.
My first wrap, which was not in line with what I wanted, was the first one I fired. Point of aim! I had several which the paper was not in direct line. I got a pretty decent group with them.
It just works. I couldn't believe it. It was just that simple.

[PatMarlin]

Lawdy it's been a long time since I seen on of those... :mrgreen:

Be just the ticket for my Ruger #1 in 300 winmag.

[bcp477]

Thanks very much for the tip about the cigarette rolling device. I will start looking for one of these straight away.

[bcp477]

Some further information, for those who might be interested. I ran out of IMR-3031, but, having plenty of IMR-4064 on hand, I decided to try some loads with this slower powder. Today I tested from 32 grains to 37 grains, in 1 grain increments. About 33 grains of 4064 gives nearly identical results to the 31 grains of 3031, in my rifle (that is, good groups - 1.5" or smaller). I tested using the cotton wool filler, but I shall try the loads without. I must refine the charge weights, because I got quite good accuracy with 32, 33 and 34 grains of the 4064. With 35 grains and above, groups opened up considerably - so the "sweet spot" is somewhere in the 32 - 34 grain range.

[PatMarlin]

What kind of velocities do you think you are doin'?

[PatMarlin]

I think paper patching is the real old school cast boolit skill.. :Fire:

[Jon K]

Didn't work for my 45 cal .441 boolit. It is tight going into the cigarette rolling machine- has to be forced between the rollers, and removing it with the paper on, WOW, pry it out , bend the rollers, and the paper moves as you pry it. This is the Top Cigarette Roller like in the link posted.

Unless I can find a machine like Molly has, I think I'll hand wrap.

Jon

[docone31]

I do not like posting non-casting sites, or promoting other's products. This machine might do the trick.
http://www.ryotobacco.com/page/ryot/PROD/hroll/hump
I had one when Bugler sold it, years ago. It had a larger opening. Might just work for the larger diameter castings.
I like how the machines actually squeege the water from the wrap. My wrappings for my .303 British are some serious snug wraps. Of course, they are thinner, .308 to start, ending up with .314 that shrinks down to .3135.
My thin castings are hard for me to wrap at all. The machine makes all the difference.

[Jon K]

docone31,

Thanks for the link, I'll see if I can find one local......or order one.

Jon

[PatMarlin]

You need one that rolls Blunts... :mrgreen:

[bcp477]

Avg. velocity for the (31 grain) IMR-3031 load is about 2060 fps, so I expect that the 32 - 34 grain IMR-4064 load will be similar.

[bcp477]

A further update....FYI for any who might be interested. I am still working with the loads using IMR-4064...because I have lots of it on hand. I THOUGHT that the "sweet spot" was somewhere in the range of 32 to 36 grains, in my rifle (as I reported before). Not quite true. Subsequent (extensive) testing has indicated that the best accuracy actually comes with a charge weight of 31.6 - 31.8 grains of the 4064. This is interesting, because the best load with the IMR-3031 (a good bit faster powder than 4064)...with all components being the same, is 31 grains. However, the 4064 shows to be less sensitive to small variations in charge weight and anything from 31 to 33 grains produces pretty good accuracy (definitely more than good enough for hunting). So, I have "adopted" the 31.6 grain load as my new limited "standard" load.

I have yet to chrono the 31.6 grain (4064) load, so I do not know how it compares to the (31 grain) 3031 load (avg. 2060 fps). However, as long as it produces roughly 2000 fps, or not much less, then it will still be OK for my purposes (whitetail deer at distances not to exceed 150 yards). Even 1900 fps would likely be just fine.

Another update - as to the cotton fibre filler. I have tested both with and without it extensively...and the load described above definitely is more consistent WITH the cotton filler. Without it, group sizes open up considerably.

[GrizzLeeBear]

....the bullet sized to .314" with a Lee die.... paper-patched with two wraps of ordinary lined notebook paper, to a final dry diameter of .324"....and lubed with one coat of Lee Liquid Alox.

Would this work with as cast boolits from a mold that drops them at .314 like one of the Lee C312 (155, 160 or 185) molds ?

I'm looking to pick up a Yugo 24/47 and I like the idea of NOT having to buy another size of gas checks. I also have a 30-06 and a .308 and thought it MIGHT be possible to use the same boolits sized down and paper patched as well. If that worked out I wouldn't have to buy ANY gas checks! Even if I did have to get another .30 cal. mold for the '06 and .308 it would still be worth it without having to buy gas checks.

[docone31]

I use the C312/185C Lee mold for my .308s also. I paper patch them, and use them with just a gas check.
I found, with sizing that casting to the .308 diameter, .309 un patched, .308 patched, the .309 sizes real easily, .308 for patching is a pain.
I would paper patch unchecked at .308, and size .309 checked.
With two wraps of Meade Tracing Paper, sizing to .308 then wrapping, I get .3135 dry.
For my 30 cals., I size to .308, two wraps of Meade, then size to .311.
I load lowest charge for the weight on the Lee die sheet.
Not too shabby.

[bcp477]

Certainly, if you have a mold that drops the bullets at .314"....no need to size them for an 8mm rifle. Just paper-patch and go.

As for the 30 cal. rifle, .314" is too large. You will need to size the bullet to roughly .300", or so, depending on the patching paper you use (final, dry diamter of the patched bullet should be about .308 - .309", depending on what your rifle likes). It should be NO problem to size a .314" bullet to about .300" or so. I buy my bullets at .324"...then size them to .314" myself, with a cheap Lee die and hand press. Piece of cake.

No more gas-checks ? THAT is exactly why I tried paper-patching. I am incredibly glad that I did.

[GrizzLeeBear]

After doing some searching, I see that it is usually recommended to use a boolit that is at or slightly larger than bore diameter (across the lands) and then patch up to groove diameter. I think the C312 boolits would probably be a bit small on the bore riding nose to use them in the 8mm. Probably better to stay with the C324-175 boolit and size it down like you are doing. Would case lube work for sizing boolits down this much?
What is your barrel diameter across the lands? What is the standard for 8mm? I did some searching and it appears that people slug 8mm barrels anywhere from .312 to .318 at the lands. Quite a variety it seems. I think it would be best to get a .314 sizer and hone it out as needed to fit.
Looks like I've got my .30 cal. boolit covered for now. My dad is sending me a 311466 mold. I have shot this boolit in my .308 mauser with very good results (gas checked and lubed). Anyone paper patch this boolit? Could you hone out a lee .285 sizer to say .301 to size it for PPing?

[bcp477]

Case lube will work just fine for resizing bullets. The standard dimension across the lands (which is called BORE diameter), for the 8 x 57JS, is .318". As you already know, the GROOVE diameter is .323". My "new" old barrel measures exactly .318" across the lands....and just a bit under .323", across the grooves (more like .3227"- .3228"). The exact bore dimension (and groove dimension, for that matter) of each individual rifle will vary somewhat, especially ones with lots of rounds fired (due to varying rates of wear). As for the .312"/ .318" confusion, I think I have an answer for you. Originally, that is, before 1905, the standard dimensions were .312" bore/ .318" groove. This was referred to as the 8 x 57 J. Around 1905, a change was made , so the standard groove diameter became .323"..and the standard bore diameter became .318". This was designated the 8 x 57JS. (It happened to be that, as this change was being made, the switch to spitzer-type bullets was being made also. The "S" in "JS" refers to spitzer-type bullets, but also happens to designate barrels with the new dimensions.) So, any barrels referred to as "8mm Mauser" with bore/ groove dimensions of .312"/ .318" are of the "old" type. ALL modern "8mm Mauser" barrels will be of the .318"/ .323" dimensions, although it pays to slug any old rifle barrel, if one is not sure of the dimensions already.