45 Caliber PPB Question

[DHDeal]

After getting a couple of 40 cal PPB molds and finding that I more than like casting/patching/shooting them, I figure I may as well dust off my 45/70 and see what the larger bore can do. The answer to my question may be try it and see, but you may help me get somewhat ahead of the learning curve like I did with the 40/65 and not waste money.

I really don't care for heavy recoil anymore so I don't know if buying a 525 or heavier grain mold is where I want to go. My GG molds in 45 caliber are 525 grain and above, and while I don't consider their recoil punishing, I just shoot better without getting beat up. Will a 500ish grain bullet give me enough BC for 600 yards (my range's limit)?

While I am whining about recoil, I want to mention something I read, doubted, and found to be true (or at least seems to be true even though physics say it can't be true). I find shooting PPB that weigh the same as a GGB recoil less even though I have 8 grains more of the the exact same powder in the same cases. Recoil in this rifle (40/65 Crossno Hepburn) has always been a non issue, but shooting a Brooks 390 grain elliptical PPB is even milder to shoot than a 400 grain Money GGB. Crazy?

So, will a 500 grain bullet shoot as well as a 525-540 grain PPB. Should I stay with an Elliptical nose, or a Money nose and why?

Rifle specifics: CSA 1885, 45/70, 32" 1/18" twist Badger heavy octagonal, SST, Heilman Soule, XX fancy wood. I have no idea of throat angle or freebore, but my Paul Jones molds have their first driving bands undersized and I can and do seat them out quite a ways. This rifle has always been very accurate with GGB's and if it acts like my 40/65, it will shoot even better.

Not to blow smoke up your butts, but most of you helped me start out with very accurate ammo in my 40/65. In my other threads I mentioned that the PPB's are more accurate than any GGB's from the very beginning.

Thanks

[country gent]

One thing that may be a plus here is an adjustable mould. You can adjust it to right what your rifle wants. I have a Steve Brooks .443 dia adjustable PP mould that casts really good bullets and very easily. He will make it a flat base or cup base even.I think 500 grns will work fine out to 6ooyds probably even farther. I normally shoot heavier in the 550 grn range as I think they swell and seal the bore quicker than lighter does. The Brooks moulds are expensive but are great quality and being adjustble may save you buying several moulds. I believe any thing in the 485 grn to 550 grn range should do what you want.

[Don McDowell]

For shooting to 600 yards, a bullet 1.1 inches long ( 420 ish grain) .444 or 446 diameter will do just fine. I have shot that weight to 800 on gongs, but like 480 to 525 grain better when going Further than 600

[rfd]

i'm still a pilgrim to ppb, but have stopped loading/shooting due to weather and health, will pick up again come spring.

if it'll help, i load for the .45-70 and my ppb story (to date) is in this thread ...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?318480-paper-patching-pilgrim

[BrentD]

Will a 500ish grain bullet give me enough BC for 600 yards (my range's limit)?
Yup.


I find shooting PPB that weigh the same as a GGB recoil less even though I have 8 grains more of the the exact same powder in the same cases. Recoil in this rifle (40/65 Crossno Hepburn) has always been a non issue, but shooting a Brooks 390 grain elliptical PPB is even milder to shoot than a 400 grain Money GGB. Crazy?
Maybe, but you are not the first person say this. I don't shoot enough grease grooves to know, but I've heard this several times.



So, will a 500 grain bullet shoot as well as a 525-540 grain PPB. Should I stay with an Elliptical nose, or a Money nose and why?
Elliptical, more accurate. Specifically, you could have BACO make a shorter version of http://www.buffaloarms.com/Bullet_Molds_it-1173820.aspx?TERM=Jim443


Rifle specifics: CSA 1885, 45/70, 32" 1/18" twist Badger heavy octagonal, SST, Heilman Soule, XX fancy wood. I have no idea of throat angle or freebore, but my Paul Jones molds have their first driving bands undersized and I can and do seat them out quite a ways. This rifle has always been very accurate with GGB's and if it acts like my 40/65, it will shoot even better.
It will shoot.

[Distant Thunder]

DHD,

I have had 4 CSA rifles and all the original barrels had a generous amount of freebore. It would be good to know what your .45's chamber looks like before investing in a mold especially since you want to shorten the curve. Do a chamber cast.

As for ppb having less recoil, I've heard and read that too, but have not seen anything scientific that would support it.

The ppb I shoot in my Hepburn weighs only 520 grains and I have done well with it out to 1000 yards. A 500 grain elliptical ppb will have no problems at 600 and beyond.

One thing I know for sure is that when you get ppb to shoot well they are a much superior projectile to gg at whatever distance you choose.

I agree that they are almost too much fun to make, load, and shoot! We just have to keep those facts to ourselves or everybody will be using them.

Good luck with the .45 and please post your results.

DT

[DHDeal]

I'll give Brooks' a call and see what I can do. The last time I ordered from them, I got the mold in about 10 days. My paper gives me .005", so a .444" or .446"?

As far as the chamber is concerned, I've never done a chamber cast on it but I have looked at it with a Hawkeye often enough. Not that it has anything to do with freebore, but it has a very nice throat. The whole barrel is very nice when compared to either a Krieger or Bartlien. I wish Badger still existed in their original form.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

0.445 would be ideal.
in my badger barrel 0.446 is a bit hard to load with fixed ammo.
I have 1 bullet of that measurement for breech seating.
keep safe,
bruce.

[BrentD]

In my experience with 3 or 4 Badger barrels, they have always been pretty darn close to deadnuts on .450. If your paper truly adds 0.005" then I'd say you want to tell the mould maker NOT SMALLER THAN 0.450 when cast with 16:1. .446 is probably what you will end up with and if that is just a little too tight, then get an inexpensive push-through sizing die and size the patched bullets to .450 or .451 and you would have perfection.

[Don McDowell]

I'll give Brooks' a call and see what I can do. The last time I ordered from them, I got the mold in about 10 days. My paper gives me .005", so a .444" or .446"?

As far as the chamber is concerned, I've never done a chamber cast on it but I have looked at it with a Hawkeye often enough. Not that it has anything to do with freebore, but it has a very nice throat. The whole barrel is very nice when compared to either a Krieger or Bartlien. I wish Badger still existed in their original form.
My CSA 45-70 with the Badger barrel got along well with a .444 diameter slick wrapped in 9 lb. paper. .446 diameter slicks gave more consistent results with 8 lb. paper, but either way the finished diameter was right at .450.

[DHDeal]

How much powder can you usually stuff in the case with minimal compression? I use more Swiss 1.5F than anything else, however I have a bunch of Swiss 3F and Express 3F too. My 45/70 cases are Starline and R/P.

I know it depends, just looking for an "about" for curiosity.

Thanks again for the help (and it really has been a help).

[Don McDowell]

Can't speak to Swiss, but 72 grs of Olde Eysnford 1 1/5, or 2f of the long gone Express.

[DHDeal]

In my experience with 3 or 4 Badger barrels, they have always been pretty darn close to deadnuts on .450. If your paper truly adds 0.005" then I'd say you want to tell the mould maker NOT SMALLER THAN 0.450 when cast with 16:1. .446 is probably what you will end up with and if that is just a little too tight, then get an inexpensive push-through sizing die and size the patched bullets to .450 or .451 and you would have perfection.

Brent,
My paper is a vintage 9lb onion skin by Eaton. All I can say is my 40 cal bullet (I used a model you supplied me with) measures .395" and 2 wraps equals .400". I tend to wet wrap snug with an almost perfect match up on the paper. They slide in easily in the chamber.

Not that looks matter much (or maybe they do) but the prolate/elliptical bullets look like a one hole group sitting still. I probably will stay with this style instead of a "Money" profile.

I cast my PPB's in 16/1 fwiw.

[BrentD]

Vintage Eaton gives me 0.007" of diameter. That is my paper of choice and I've been using it for over 20 yrs now. I like my bullets to be between .443 and .444" with that paper. I wonder why you get so much less thickness? I get the same result whether I wet or dry wrap. I almost exclusively dry wrap now but spent many years wet wrapping.

[Distant Thunder]

DHD,

I can get 82.0 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 in my Starline brass and that will just a little to start the wad into. That is in a tight paper patch chamber, a standard chamber should hold a few more.

I load 83.0 grains and seat the .060" LDPE wad with the use of a compression bushing. The bushing isn't really necessary I guess, but it sure makes seating the .460 diameter wad into my .452 case mouths a lot easier even with the powder right up to the top of the case.

My 520 grain bullet is running right at 1285 fps with 83.0 grains.

DT

[DHDeal]

Brent I can't say why I only get .005" with my Eaton paper. What I have is Eaton Berkshire Eminence 25% cotton 9lb onion skin. Regardless, the bullets when patched measure .400" - .401". Very few measure the .401" diameter. I roll the patches onto the bullets really tight.

[BrentD]

I have several flavors of Eaton 9#, 25% cotton paper. Some sold as air mail paper, some as typewriter paper, some more generic. But they all have the Cockle finish and they all patch the same for me. I've always thought thought they were all the same paper, just marketed a little differently. I don't roll stuff super tight but I can't see that affecting things much.

[kokomokid]

How fast are you pushing the 45 cal with 82 grains 1 1/2 ?

[BrentD]

about 1300

[kokomokid]

Thamks Brent, I am only getting 1220 with 81 grs of 1 1/2 swiss on my 544 gr bullet.
DT, I put a .030 wad in my case and compress powder to .100 open then size my case neck down for the .100 open. Putting a .458 LDPE wad in a .450 case was not a joy for me. I am shooting a GG chamber.

[BrentD]

Maybe I better check my books. That number was from memory and my memory is not always good. However, my bullet is 513 grs. I also have a 537 gr bullet and I have numbers for that as well. I'll check for both of them and see what I find.

Brent

[Gunlaker]

In my paper patch chambered .45-70's the velocities I get are pretty close to Brent's. Last chronograph session was 1281 average with 80gr of Swiss 1.5 and a 530gr Money bullet. That's with a 32" barrel. Velocity measured at about 15 feet, not corrected to the muzzle.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

I should also add that my Badger barrels seem to have a .450" bore. I generally use .445" bullets patched with 8lb Seth Cole, although one of my .45-110's uses a .444" bullet patched with 9lb paper that I bought from Buffalo Arms several years ago.

My C. Sharps rifles with factory chambers have some freebore. The .45-110 shoots paper patched bullets quite well, but I never got the .45-70 to shoot them especially well for some reason.

Chris.

[Distant Thunder]

kokomokid,

Since my chamber is tight for ppb, chambered with Brent's reamer, the case mouth is .452" in unsized, fired brass. I can compress 82.0 grains of powder first and then fight the .460" diameter wad into the case, but why. When I stepped up to 83.0 and thinking I'd like try even a few more grains to find the sweet spot I decided the bushing was the best way to go. I did go up to 85.0 grains but 83.0 proved to be what the rifle likes.

So now I just set the bushing on the case, drop tube in the powder, very easily set the wad in the funnel shaped bushing and compress, then seat my .4505" patched bullet.

My Hepburn has a 34" Badger barrel with a bore that is too loose for a .450" bullet. If I patch to .451" the first one goes in just snug, but because this rifle likes to shoot a little dirty I'll start having trouble about the 3rd or 4th shot. So I made a .4505" sizing bushing for my patched bullets and we're both happy. I just have to watch my fouling very, very closely and I do that by feel with the single wet patch. If it starts to feel tight at the muzzle I follow with a 2nd wet then the one dry. Doing that I can average the 9-ring, with a little help from my spotter. Life is good!

DT