german stalking rifle

[tim338]

I recently picked up a single shot German stalking rifle at auction. It was originally chambered for 8.15x46r. I just did a chamber cast and it appears to have been rechambered for 30/40 Krag. The bore slugs out at .313. The rifle is in great shape and locks up tight with a mint bore. My question is will this rifle handle 30/40 pressures? It has the nitro stamp on the barrel so I can assume it was proofed for smokless.

[herbert buckland]

With a .313 groove size check to see if it is a 303 British(very close to the 30-40)

[tim338]

I checked that first. Definitely 30/40 Krag.

[Kraschenbirn]

What style of action...break-open, bolt action, falling block, etc.? Last German 'stalking rifle' in 8.15x46R that I ran across was a single-shot on what looked like a scaled-down M1871 action that I certainly wouldn't have trusted for rebarreling to anything producing 'modern' pressure levels. How 'bout a pic or two?

Bill

[roadie]

Yes, the type of action makes all the difference and quality of the action. Lots of Belgian guns around that couldn't be trusted with these pressures.

[tim338]

It's a break open. Nice light little rifle. I'll get some photo's in a few.

[tim338]

180885

[tim338]

180886

[adcoch1]

That's a pretty rifle...

[tim338]

Thank you. I went to the auction just for that rifle. I also bought a martini cadet. The barrel has been cut off to 19" and the sights are missing but I got it for a song. I'm going to send it off and have it re-bored and chambered for 357 magnum as soon as I find someone who can do the work.

[Toolmaker TN]

Talk to JES reboring. I'm having him do a 357 mag rebore for me on a cadet in the near future. He's already done 2 rifles for me, and his work is outstanding.

[tim338]

That's right I forgot about JES. I'll give him a call today.

[Tatume]

Do your plans for the gun require full-power loads? If that pretty rifle were mine I would shoot it with cast-bullet loads in the 1800 fps range and enjoy it. A 200 grain cast bullet at 1800 fps would be the bomb on deer and hogs too.

[tim338]

No I only intend to shoot cast through it. Moderate loads. I have other rifles if I need more. I wish it wasn't re-chambered and was left original. Oh well it's still a neat rifle and I will have a good time shooting it. Just need to find a load that shoots to the sights. Luckily I have 38 30/40 Krag cases squirreled away as they are tough to find. If anyone has any they want to sell let me know.

[marlinman93]

Beautiful rifle, and even rechambered it is still a great gun! I too would prefer the original 8.15x46R, but since you plan to load with moderate cast loads, it should be more than capable to handle your loads.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The things some people do to guns! In some cases I would suggest sleeving the chamber and rechambering for the original round. But in this case the first half-inch of what ought to be bore has been removed. It would remain a possibility if you can find a long, straight tapered cartridge made for combination guns. But most of those labelled 8mm. require larger groove diameters. Fully relining the bore and rechambering, with a liner made for .32-20, might be the best option available. You can get the liners from Mike Sayers of TJ's, but you can see the full range with specifications on www.trackofthewolf.com (http://www.trackofthewolf.com) .

There certainly were rifles of very similar style made for cartridges comparable with the standard Krag load. But the situation with your rifle would depend on things like action width, type of steel, the amount of metal removed to accommodate the moving parts, whether the hinge pin is shorter and slimmer than it looks, and covered with dummy screw-heads, etc. I am sure it is perfectly usable with mild but useful Krag loads. But I wouldn't go beyond that.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Thank you. I went to the auction just for that rifle. I also bought a martini cadet. The barrel has been cut off to 19" and the sights are missing but I got it for a song. I'm going to send it off and have it re-bored and chambered for 357 magnum as soon as I find someone who can do the work.

Any kind of Cadet for a song can't be bad. JES have a high reputation, and the .357 is a good cartridge for that barrel length. But a good alternative, if there are still octagonal barrel blanks for the 92 and 94 Winchesters, like Green Mountain used to do, would be to use one of those. I think it is easier to do a really stable bedding job on a two-piece stock rifle.

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/pistol-caliber-centerfire-barrels/

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/lever-action-rifle-barrels/

[tim338]

A octagonal barrel sure would look classic on the little cadet action.

[samari46]

Not to be a wet blanket but check the proof marks which are normally stamped on the underside of the barrel. You will have to remove the forend. I'm almost positive you will find the German markings for when it was a 8.15x46r rimmed cartridge. The 8.15x46r usually takes a bullet .321 or slightly larger. When you mentioned the .313 bore diameter that is what led me to post this. Frank

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Cartridge reference books often copy each other's mistakes, but Barnes, Donnelly and the database in my Load from a Disk program concur in making it .316in. For the 8x72R Sauer, a slightly later cartridge, they all give .324in. ( a figure presumably intended for the .323in. of the S-bore Mausers), and for the 8x75R Barnes and Donnnelly say .318in. For the rimless 8x75 Donnelly says both .318 and .323in. versions exist and only the latter is listed as 8x75S by Loads from a Disk.

Barnes lists but doesn't give the dimensions of a straight tapered 8x57R which is based on the 9.3x72R, and must therefore have a .427 head. It is slightly shorter than the Krag, but a reasonable basis for a bushed chamber. There is also an 8x58R Sauer with, if it isn't a typo, a head diameter of .438in. You could probably make this one by sizing down the .30-40 till you reach the solid part of the head, and turning down the rest.

[tim338]

Yes sir that was the first thing I checked and it is indeed marked for the 8.15x46R. As far as the bore diameter it is what it is. Luckily I can shoot it the way it is and decide later on what to do with it.




Not to be a wet blanket but check the proof marks which are normally stamped on the underside of the barrel. You will have to remove the forend. I'm almost positive you will find the German markings for when it was a 8.15x46r rimmed cartridge. The 8.15x46r usually takes a bullet .321 or slightly larger. When you mentioned the .313 bore diameter that is what led me to post this. Frank

[samari46]

Tim, such a small bore diameter for what was a 8.15x46r curious that. But kinda glad as there are a lot of cast bullets that should fit that .313 bore. Frank

[rhbrink]

Makes me wonder if the barrel has been re-lined? Some gunsmiths can do a really neat job and make it hard to see you have to look really close it see the liner?

RB

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I think it is unlikely that it was relined. If it was done for the Krag conversion, why not line it for .308 bullets? Parker-Hale made liners for the .303, but that was a practice confined to the UK, and if one was used, .303 would be the logical cartridge to use. Other than the .32-20 and various pistol cartridges, I don't know of any German or American cartridge well suited to the .313 groove diameter, and I think off-the-peg liners for .32-20 are a relatively recent arrival in the marketplace.

I think this is probably the original bore, and intended for the 8.15x46R. I've consulted the 1904 DWM catalogue, a most impressive graveyard of cartridges which haven't made it into any modern reference book. It doesn't, unfortunately, give shoulder diameters or length to shoulder. I think the 8.15x46R is their case number 455, which they describe as "Deutsche Schützen Kal. 8mm.", with 8.2mm. inside neck diameter, 46.7 overall case length, 10.75mm. head and 12.3mm rim.

The bullet they specifically link to the 455 case is illustrated with the number 246A, and diameter described as "(8.22) 8.45". I interpret this as meaning that this cartridge was produced with both a heel and an inside lubricated bullet, and 246 is the other one. Nevertheless I think they were intended to be squeezed through a bore as you describe. They are lead bullets with rather large lube grooves. I doubt if there would be a way of making it work well with jacketed bullets, but then why would you need to?

In your place I would want to make this rifle shoot with the original bore and a bullet close to groove diameter, and eventually a cartridge, even one of my own devising, more in keeping with this style of rifle than the Krag. The barrel may be chopper lump, i.e. with the lumps or underlugs integral with the barrel. More likely they are dovetailed and brazed or silver soldered in place. Either way a fairly low melting-point silver solder, such as Brownells 355 which comes in thin ribbon form, would secure a chamber bushing with ample strength. If you want to avoid limited-production (and perhaps unreliable-production) brass, you could use .38-55 with a straight freebore to keep the bullet aligned before it encounters the rifling where the Krag conversion left it. Weatherby do that just to slow down the pressure buildup, and there is a world of difference between that and a throat which has simply eroded longer than specification.

[dtknowles]

The critical piece of missing info is the words of someone who has shot this rifle. Has the rifle been shot with factory 30-40 Krag ammo. Even better might be talking with the Gunsmith who made the conversion. 30-40 Krag is a high pressure cartridge but lower pressure than more modern cargridges and that combined with the mismatch of the bore to bullet diameter might prevent damage to the gun from factory ammo.

On handloads, I would be wary of groove diameter jacketed or cast bullets as they would probably jam in a too tight neck. You probably could get away with .311 diameter bullets (loaded to starting load pressures or less) but I would measure my fired brass or do a chamber cast or pound cast of the neck and throat.

A custom or modified mold to make outside lubed rebated bullets a thousandth or two over groove diameter is the way I would go. If the throat is too short for that, there are still more tricks like shortening the neck on the brass or reaming the throat.

The existing chamber can be made to shoot well and it you were really worried about pressures you could stick with black powder and beat 32-40 ballistics. Have you measured the twist?

While it would be more trouble than I would go too, you could breach seat bullets and adjust the case neck length to match the location of the base of the seated bullet.

Regarding brass availability, I have use .303 British in Krag chambers, they end up being a tad short but in your gun that might be a good thing. I think the most dangerous thing that you could do would be to fire .303 factory ammo in that gun as the larger bullet diameter might make pressures too high for the action.

I think that that gun is too dangerous for anyone but me and you need to send it to me right away :)

Tim

[tim338]

I made a good chamber cast and it has a long throat so I don't foresee any issue with shooting it with proper diameter cast bullets. I did purchase the rifle from a deceased gunsmith estate and it was one of his personal rifles. I question if I should deal with this or pass it along and let the next guy have fun with it.

[Tatume]

Hi Tim,

I'm sorry to hear that people are causing you to doubt this gun. My opinion is you should get a 200 grain mold intended for the 303 British. The mold will probably drop 0.313" bullets, or maybe even slightly larger. Load them with 30-40 Krag data for 180 grain jacketed bullets using H4895, getting data from here:

https://www.hodgdon.com/

after having reduced loads according to the information here:

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf

Work up to around 1600 - 1800 fps, and you will have a rifle to be proud of for life.

Take care, Tom

[marlinman93]

Bore diameters run a large gamut of diameters for the 8.15x46R. Yes, the .313" bore is smaller than what's usually found on an 8.15x46R, but not out of the question. I've owned several, and slugged many more for friends working up loads for the caliber, and found most run in the .315" to .321" sizes. I consider .321" as strange myself, as I see most around .316"-.317" amongst those I've slugged. All three of mine were in this range.
Regardless of what the bore size is, it really doesn't matter now. The .313" bore for a .30 Krag is a good one, and it should be a really fun gun to use for either plinking or hunting.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

probably safer than most Krags...

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I made a good chamber cast and it has a long throat so I don't foresee any issue with shooting it with proper diameter cast bullets. I did purchase the rifle from a deceased gunsmith estate and it was one of his personal rifles. I question if I should deal with this or pass it along and let the next guy have fun with it.

It is quite a good idea to doubt this rifle, up to the point of avoiding standard Krag pressures. I think the odds are on this rifle standing it perfectly well, but from the point of view both of safety and conserving a rare and excellent rifle, odds-on is less than you want.

Even for reduced loads it is diameter of neck that counts. It might be that whoever did the work has given it a larger than standard neck, but the SAAMI specification only guarantees less than one thousandth of clearance, and a maximum chamber .002 more. Still it is a 19th century military rifle, and I think the chances are that a standard Krag reamer would give enough to accommodate .313 bullets. I would not go larger just because the 8.15x46R often did. You don't have the 8.15x46R neck any more, and just about any bullet material can run up pressures if the neck is clamped onto it by the chamber. You should check for eay chambering any time you start using a new bullet.

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/30-40%20Krag.pdf

A lighter bullet is a good way of keeping the pressure down. Besides, there is a good chance that this rifle was given a rifling twist too slow for 200gr., especially at reduced velocity. Velocity doesn't make a huge difference to the twist a bullet needs, but it makes some. The long throat may just be what the reamer had to accommodate the 220gr. military bullet, for although it doesn't look long on the SAAMI drawing, you will be comparing it with what you see on more modern rifles, and from some five inches nearer. I don't believe any Lee-Enfield, except maybe nearly-modern target barrels, was throated for less than the 19th century 215gr., and yet plenty of people have had quite good accuracy with 150gr. or even less.

I'd agree that if you have .303 rounds, you must segregate them carefully, for they give considerably higher pressure than the .30-40. It was quite common for Canadian shooters to use them in .30-40 rifles, but a lot of them would have been the 1895 Winchester.

[gnoahhh]

That is a pretty nice kiplauf you have there. (Translation: kiplauf= tilt up) I have a couple kiplaufs and find myself reaching for one of them more often than not anymore. One is a 5.6x35R, and the other is an 8.15x46R lined to .25 and chambered in .25-20. I keep my eyes peeled for a deer-friendly kiplauf...