Went back in time today

[starmac]

I got to drive an old pete log truck with a buzzin dozen. I didn't haul a load, just moved it for the boss, but it was like a time warp.

[tommag]

12v71?

[osteodoc08]

I looked up that motor family as I'm not well versed on big rig motors. Certainly an interesting modularity concept ahead of its time, and a 2 stroke motor on top of that. Too cool.

[starmac]

12v71?

Ypu. I never ran a truck with one even back when. They were never popular down south, but more so here. I did run scrapers with them, hated the noise, they just didn't make enough ear plug. lol

[rancher1913]

what do you think the newbie truckers would do if they had to use a brownie transmission, the one I learned on the main and brownie were backwards and it was real easy to miss a shift.

[starmac]

No problem, they would just demand the company furnish them a safe space. lol

[Mytmousemalibu]

There is NOTHING better than the sound of a Detroit 2 stroke! I love'em! Still lots of them out there working for a living but they are mostly gone from the road. I clearly remember as a tyke, at my dads carlot on the weekends, a local scrap yard had a fleet of old GMC brigadiers with 6v Detroits screamin past daily. I miss that wonderful noise from a bygone era. I would love to build a clean "rat" rod like a 37' Chevrolet truck with a 6v53 and Fuller twin stick. Done very cleanly, like something Jimmy Shine would build.

[tommag]

I've never drive a 1271, but have had an 871 and 892. They sounded better than they ran. As to the two sticks, they looked cool, but could be a pita, especially when the linkages wore out.

[robg]

Always hated 10 speed range change on Albion trucks here .

[starmac]

I am a bit rusty with twin sticks myself, have not driven one daily since the 80's. They did have there place and were needed at the time, but transmissions have gotten better, so no real need for 2 sticks anymore.

They still work pretty well in the log woods for the low gears though, and better than anything else behind a notorque two stroke.

There are a few 892's and very few 12/71's still running here in dump and log trucks. There are even a few old state dump trucks running around with 671's alive.

[rancher1913]

mine was a dimond rio hauling grain, nowdays there are a lot of automatics showing up, still don't like them in bad weather.

[shoot-n-lead]

My Dad had a couple of the 2-stroke Detroits....we did not care for them...no torque. Cummins and Mack would far and away, out pull them. Headlights on the Detroit trucks could hit a hill and you would have to start downshifting...comparable geared Cummins or Mack would bury'em.

BUT, they did get great fuel mileage.

[Deep Six]

Detroit 12v71 eh? We have some of those powering water pumps at the power plant I work at. Ours are supercharged and turbocharged, producing about 1200 hp. I've heard of them in boats but didn't realize they ever found their way into a truck.

[Alstep]

Detroits are the most efficient machines to convert diesel fuel into noise. But they were simple and efficient.
Took my driver's test in a 2 stick B model Mack when I first started out. Long time ago.
I have a 4-53 power unit for sale, anybody interested?

[labradigger1]

Detroits wound tight without a muffler just may be the loudest things ever made.

[shoot-n-lead]

Test y'all's knowledge...what does the 12v71 stand for?

I know that some will know...not sure if everyone will.

[Mk42gunner]

Twelve cylinders, V block, 71 cubic inches per cylinder.

Dad used to run them in Eucs.

Robert

[shoot-n-lead]

Twelve cylinders, V block, 71 cubic inches per cylinder.

Dad used to run them in Eucs.

Robert

Bingo!

[starmac]

I want to say that the 71 is the series, and the series stands for 71 cubic inches, but it has been forever since I have fooled with detroits except the 60 series.

Shootinlead. It depends on which detroit you had. Back in the day they would pull with any other make of truck engine, size for size. You just had to drive them different, it was always claimed the best thing to do was slam the door on your hand first thing in the morning.

The 12v71 iirc were only set up at 475 horse in trucks, BUT just an uinjector swao changed that tremendously and you could also add turbos.

[shoot-n-lead]

Yeah, that was the story around here...but, it did not bear out in real world performance and was the reason that we never used more of them. We used 318's with 13sp Spicer's...twin Stimco glasspacks...work you to death changing gears. A 237 6sp Maxedyne would run off and leave them, if there was any hill in the road.

I think they would have done a pretty good job in the southwest...open, flat (for the most part), straight road. There willingness to turn RPM's meant they were fast...provided the road was flat and straight.

[starmac]

I had a 318 (not my favorite motor by far) in a dump truck in the hill country in Texas. The 237 macks were real popular there in dump trucks and had more low rpm torque, but wouldn't outpull the 318's if you kept the rpms where thye had to be on the detroits.
As far as I am concerned the 237 mack was a great dump truck and town truck motor, but there is a reason they weren't popular in over the road trucks.
I started out driving a jimmy pulling a 50 ton lowboy hauling heavy all the time, most of the little 237 powered macks also had a 5 spd or 7'spd, no way they could do what that old (new at the time) jimmy did.
I ran a 76 with an 8v92, upgraded to the silver series, maybe even better, but it would run with the 1693's all day long. They were not as long a lived motors as the cats though, at least in my opinion.

[shoot-n-lead]

Our trucks were pulling dump trailers in hilly areas and the Mack's and Cummin's just performed better than the 318's...nobody wanted to drive the Detroits after using the others.

However, with those twin glasspacks...they would sing a song...and that was way back in the mid 70's.

Dad had a 60 series in the late 90's...never drove it, but road in it once and it was a much better performing engine than 71 series...at least, those that we had.

I have had no experience with trucks since the summers, the 3yrs following graduating high school. At that point, I had prepared to do something else...I had driven them enough.

[starmac]

60 series is a whole different animal than the old 2 strokes and does out perform them any way you can think of, longevity being one of the most important. that said until 08 any of the big three motors out performed their earlier counterparts.

Two strokes were always noisy, there best feature, and oil leakers, their worst feature. If kept wound up, they did the job and were used in all manners of equipment, but are basically just somewhat of a nostalgic thing these days, people remember them as better than they were in real life.

[tommag]

Starmac... Not as long lived as the 1693??? The old mechanical cats were sometimes good to 750,00 if you took care of them. A detroit was cheap and easy to rebuild, good thing since you had to do it every 300,00 miles. Nostalgia is right! The series 60 I'm running now has 1,750,000 on it (1,100,000 on a set of cylinder kits). Still running strong with not much oil consumption. The good old days of trucking weren't all that good. I have a fresh 60 series in a 1999 Volvo I'm going to put into service this January. It's basically stock, except for a touch of mechanical advancement. Thinking about getting pittsbugh power to do some ecm tuning to bring it up to 600 or so after swapping out the turbo and exhaust manifold. Well, maybe not, the last 60 I had done with old marine settings would break traction on a wet road. 500 ecm with the improved exhaust flow would probably be more comfortable! (I like my cruise control but couldn't use it much with my last hotrod)

[smokeywolf]

Drove and worked on a Greyhound a few times that had a 6-71 Detroit in it. No synchromesh. Shift (double-clutch) between 1820 and 1850 RPM or you just about had to stop and start all over again.

Also drove a early '60s Pete conventional that had a 5 & 4 in it; 5 in the main and 4 in the Brownies.

Drove a early '70s KW conventional a few times, with a 460 CAT in it. Could pull a 40 ft. box up a 7% grade at 60 MPH (empty of course).

[shoot-n-lead]

Drove and worked on a Greyhound a few times that had a 6-71 Detroit in it. No synchromesh. Shift (double-clutch) between 1820 and 1850 RPM or you just about had to stop and start all over again.

Also drove a early '60s Pete conventional that had a 5 & 4 in it; 5 in the main and 4 in the Brownies.

Drove a early '70s KW conventional a few times, with a 460 CAT in it. Could pull a 40 ft. box up a 7% grade at 60 MPH (empty of course).

None of the trucks that we had when I was driving, had synchronized transmissions...I seldom used the clutch other than starting off and downshifting into low gear. It was simple...hit the RPM's, lightly lift off the throttle and move the stick...a lot easier than using that clutch, repeatedly.

[rancher1913]

had to take a road test awhile back to prove that I could drive a truck and almost failed it because I did not use the clutch. guess nowadays you are supposed to drive just like a car or the knowitall instructors will have a cow.

[starmac]

Towmag, The longevity I was talking about with detroits was the series sixty, the two strokes not so much unless in a different application besides trucks.

There used to be a large outfit up here that ran 8v92's exclusively, infact many did. They handled the cold weather well. They claimed that Tennesee Miller got chapped if one made it to the 100,000 mile mark, as he wanted the engines replaced under warranty.

The series sixty in my 97, I had overhauled when it hit the 1,000,000 mile mark, it was not useing oil and was not showing signs of trouble, but I was steady running the alcan in those days and didn't want it to go down in the middle of nowhere. That was the ddec 3, I have not had as good of luck with the 4's, not bad, but not as good.

[smokeywolf]

None of the trucks that we had when I was driving, had synchronized transmissions...I seldom used the clutch other than starting off and downshifting into low gear. It was simple...hit the RPM's, lightly lift off the throttle and move the stick...a lot easier than using that clutch, repeatedly.

Only drove the Greyhound 3 or 4 times. Most of my driving was in a '73 Pete conventional which had a 350 Cummins and 13 speed Road Ranger. It was almost brand new. Yes, I was a bit spoiled.

[Iowa Fox]

Peterbilt + Caterpillar = King of the road. Well for a while.

Started with the 1676 in the 1960s

Next was the 1674 and 1693. These were overhead cam engines, you could half way make them run but they were fragile.

Next came the 3408. Now you could make these run but they were heavy and fuel economy was horrible, you almost had to run them low on coolant or oil to hurt them. This is were Cat turned into the king of the road. 100 MPH grossed or over gross not uncommon.

1973 is when the first 3406's hit the street. Just about put Cat out of the truck business

Cat turned the 3406 around and it was well accepted and remained the king of the road.

2008 the last hurrah for the C15.

Cat is totally out of the on highway truck business today. Lots of brand new ones sitting on the Caterpillar dealers lots. Nobody wants them. You can't keep them running and no fixes for them.

[starmac]

Not sure what you are talking about new ones sitting on cat dealers lot?? Cat pretty much told the epa to stuff it and quit building truck engines, but I know several that have bought new ones and got rid of the cummins in their new trucks. The kit trucks have come back on the scene to get a cat powered truck, and selling quite a few.

[Parson]

Detroits are the most efficient machines to convert diesel fuel into noise. But they were simple and efficient.
Took my driver's test in a 2 stick B model Mack when I first started out. Long time ago.
I have a 4-53 power unit for sale, anybody interested?

B model smoking Mack, that does bring back memories. The dorm I lived in going to school was on a curve on a main highway, when those old Detroits shifted down coming around that curve was pure music, Elvis couldn't hold a candle to them

[Houndog]

Starmac,
You have brought back some fond memories, and some REAL nightmares for me! I drove a 12v71 ,2 stick 5X4 KW for my first coast to coast bid run! It had been "black widowed" ( 4 turbochargers feeding the twin superchargers) and averaged a whopping 3 mpg and if you got 100K on an overhaul you were flying, but Diesel only cost 18 cents per gallon and about $2,000 would buy the parts for a rebuild! My biggest fine EVER came from that truck! I got caught in California doing 118MPH with 103K on the trailer chasing some stark nekkid female in a convertible yelling "if you can catch me you can have me" over the radio. Barney Fife wasn't amused and I spent the biggest part of a week in lockup waiting on a judge and paid $3500 in fines to get out along with being banned from the state for 5 years! That was in 1970, before I married and $3500 dollars was REAL money! I like to tell our new steering wheel holders that the "good old days" in trucking weren't very good AT ALL! They don't know how lucky they are.

[Iowa Fox]

Not sure what you are talking about new ones sitting on cat dealers lot?? Cat pretty much told the epa to stuff it and quit building truck engines, but I know several that have bought new ones and got rid of the cummins in their new trucks. The kit trucks have come back on the scene to get a cat powered truck, and selling quite a few.

I'm talking Cat Trucks. The ones made by Navastar for Caterpillar, lots of them have been on dealer lots for 3 plus years.

[starmac]

Well that is cuz, you can buy the same truck at a cornbinder for thousands cheaper. Quite a few that did buy them got chapped when they found out they had bought a binder. I have not heard anyone complaining about their performance here, at least not anymore than any other new truck.

The epa has basically destroyed all diesels for our climate anyway, none of the new epa compliant diesels are even halfway reliable, even in the pickups.

[Mtnfolk75]

Pushed my fair share of Yamaha's down the road, from 8v71 to the 8v92. Big differences in those motors, the 318 & even the 350 variety would lose 2 gears if it saw an overpass while the 8v92 would keep on haulin'. The last 8v92 I ran was a Silver Series in a COE Cornbinder, had 444 rears and would climb Grapevine in either direction loaded at about 42 mph. That was a good truck coupled with a 44' Spread Axle Flat I hauled some freight over the Western 11 :mrgreen:

Another interesting thing about the 2 strokes was that they would run backwards, I worked a local/LTL carrier for a while. One day I had 45' Open Top with scrap phone equipment that I was taking to the recycler, was driving an old 3 axle COE Day Cab Mack with a 318 that day. When I was backing down into the hole the landing gear caught on the angle from flat to slope and brought me to a stop, the motor belched and then restarted. It had an old Box Intake behind the driver's door, which immediately started to belch blue 2 stroke smoke. Took me a Nano-second to realize what had happened and I quickly pulled the fuel stop and got it shut down, it started back up no worse for wear ....

[DLCTEX]

I never drove a truck with the V12 Jimmy engine but ran a rock crusher with one on the impact machine. The first time I heard it rev up I thought it had to be running 7000 rpm, but it was only 1800. The Euclid rear dumps we had had straight 6 Jimmys that would run backward if you blew the shift and stalled out and the truck rolled back.

[starmac]

Any of the old 2 stroke detroits would run backwards, but not for too long. I used to see it with dump trucks that backed into the pile and it restarted as it rolled up.

The funniest one I saw was a black guy that had his bed halfway up. The pto was running backwards so it wouldn't raise the rest of the way. He got out and walked over to where I was on a dozer and ask if I had any idea why it wouldn't raise on up, I looked over and saw the smoke boiling out of the breather, and ask him if he had some extra reverse gears. lol He said, that is another thing, all the gears are reverse. I told him if he didn't want a blowed up motor, he might think about going back and kill it.

[Iowa Fox]

Some of the Cats would run backwards also. For a while, no oil going to the bearings. One of our customers employees was hauling a excavator and had the boom to high. He was flying along going under I-74 and caught the on ramp. The boom cut through 1/2 the width of the ramp going up to I-74. At the abrupt stop the engine pulled down to the point it started to run backward. Truck got towed to our shop for inspection. That was an expensive day for the owner of the company. Anyone on here from Davenport remember that one? Ramp was closed for a long time with lots of mad Iowa/Illinois folks trying to cross the river.

[Bookworm]

My first truck was a snub-nose White, with a 6v92T , and a Fuller a 9 spd. I would just slam my hand in the door first thing every morning, to get in the proper mood to run it.

Just get in, mash the foot-feed to the floor, and leave it there all day. To shift, I would just push (or pull, whichever was appropriate) on the stick until it came out of gear, then let up for a second to smack it into the next, mash the foot-feed again. Never used the clutch.

Air starter too.
I'd shut it down at the truck stop, then wait for a young feller to walk by, hit the starter and scare the bejabbers out of em. The thing didn't need a battery at all to start and run. All mechanical.

Gawd, I hated that truck. Made me money, but I just dreaded getting in it every morning.

[rancher1913]

air starters, now there is a memory. don't see many of them today. they were great at starting but woo to you if you ran out of air. still love my old pony motors for starting, loved seeing the smoke rings as you were cranking the main.

[marvelshooter]

Some of the Cats would run backwards also. For a while, no oil going to the bearings. One of our customers employees was hauling a excavator and had the boom to high. He was flying along going under I-74 and caught the on ramp. The boom cut through 1/2 the width of the ramp going up to I-74. At the abrupt stop the engine pulled down to the point it started to run backward. Truck got towed to our shop for inspection. That was an expensive day for the owner of the company. Anyone on here from Davenport remember that one? Ramp was closed for a long time with lots of mad Iowa/Illinois folks trying to cross the river.
I am not from Davenport but I have seen a picture and it was just as you describe.

[starmac]

Got to love them air starters. I was working on a roadway truck and told the driver to hit the starter, not at all thinking about the air. lol got the full blast of exhaust in my face and darn near caused a runaway. lol

[Mtnfolk75]

First time I heard an Air Start was when I was asleep in my bunk in a Rest Area, a CFI Line Truck next to me fired up. Took me several minutes to get unwound from the roof of the sleeper ...... :mrgreen:

[castalott]

The Cummins v12 engines ( That were used as pump engines only) had air starters . Hold the compression release in and hit the starter. You can really make them scream....

[shoot-n-lead]

We had an F Model Mack with a 220 Cummins and air start...that was a wicked sounding thing.

This was a half cab with a duplex trans...just an oddball truck, it was an Overnight fleet truck.

This is just like our ugly duckling...only, it was over 40yrs ago that we had that one.

180991

[Budzilla 19]

Want to see what 2 stroke diesels are capable of? YouTube the "Bandag Bullet"!!!! IIRC it has a pair of 8v71's hooked together with a lot of turbos on it! Also, John Deere had a couple of their bigger tractors from the past with 12v71's in them! Had a 5020 repowered with a "Buzzin Dozen", boy, did it sound good! As for hot rod Detroit diesels there are some videos out there! Saw a semi pulling truck with a 12v71 with 4 turbos, a header set up? Rpms were unbelievable ! As far as trucks, ran several 6-71's in the ground! Probably why part of my hearing in my left ear is gone!! Lol ,as far as loud? 225 Timberjack skidder with a straight exhaust on it! No hiding where you were! Just my .02

[starmac]

Differences and why the V12 was not popular.
Comparing my truck to his.
The V12 is heavier than my cat, by quite a bit, even more so than a cummins.
2 trannies are quite a bit more weight than my 15 spd
rearends are both ss's and same gear ratio, so no difference in weight.
his is walking beams, probably heavier than my air ride.
His frame may be one step heavier, but I am at least 6 feet longer and have a sleeper where his does not, should negate the heavier frame.
He ways in 11000 pounds more than I do, which means that much less payload per trip.
Same gear ratio, yet the V12 is burning 50 to 52 gallons a trip to my 32 to 35, so it costs at least 41 dollars more to make around 840 dollars less .
That 50 gallons if for app 100 miles round trip, loaded one way, not the most economical of engines. lol

[rancher1913]

did anybody ever use a pony motor in trucks. ag and construction equipment they were common early on but don't recall ever seeing one in an over the road truck.

[starmac]

did anybody ever use a pony motor in trucks. ag and construction equipment they were common early on but don't recall ever seeing one in an over the road truck.

I never knew of them used in a truck application. I still have a couple of road graders with pony motors. They work as good or better than the old starters, and seem to last forever.

[tommag]

B model macks, thermodynes, air starters..... Not sure where this will end, but I'm enjoying it! I'm starting to picture a rest home for old truckers, decorated to look like a 76 or Skelly truck stop.
The oldest thing I drove was a single screw 1962 autocar with a 4x4 and a 262 it was well taken care of, but still an uncomfortable old truck back in 1982.I started back in the winter of 80-81 as a "temporary" thing. $1,000 down bought me a 77 cornbinder cabover which I promptly trashed while getting a crash course in maintenance. 156" wheel base and a hendrickson stack of springs that must've been 20" thick at the center bolt. Boy was I proud of that ***!
Anybody remember the Marmon with the hooded instrument lights shining back on the guages?
Or, truck stops with $5 to $10 sleeping rooms upstairs?

[tommag]

Never heard of a pony motor in a road truck, but I remember them in old cats. Iirc, you used a removable crank to start the pony motor and then engaged the clutch to start the engine.
did anybody ever use a pony motor in trucks. ag and construction equipment they were common early on but don't recall ever seeing one in an over the road truck.

[starmac]

Union 76's had the upstairs rooms. Drivers on 287 actually had rooms next to it up through the 90's, probably not anymore.

I had a 75 co binder, 318, 4x4 and hendrickson spring over walking beam. It did the job and was basically a trouble free truck, but like most old work trucks, no driver comfort features. At least it did have power steering, and of all things an air cab jack.

[tommag]

Starmac, it's hard to find fault with the 60 series, isn't it? For a couple months mine was set at 585 hp marine settings with mechanical upgrades bringing it up to around 700. Not economical, but it would pull a 6% in tenth gear, no need to shift. Now, it's only making about 525, but it's a consistent 7mpg truck, down here in the lower 48.

[tommag]

Air jack! The only air powered cab Jack's I had were on an aerodyne cabover and a 110" k100.
Yep, sleeping rooms are a thing of the past.

[shoot-n-lead]

Yep, sleeping rooms are a thing of the past.

Trucks, near all, have a camper on them, now.

I have been removed from trucking, most of my life, now...but, I wonder if the common carriers still put bunk rooms in their terminals. Used to be, that every terminal of any size, had a pretty decent bunk/bath area for the over-the-road drivers.

[starmac]

Starmac, it's hard to find fault with the 60 series, isn't it? For a couple months mine was set at 585 hp marine settings with mechanical upgrades bringing it up to around 700. Not economical, but it would pull a 6% in tenth gear, no need to shift. Now, it's only making about 525, but it's a consistent 7mpg truck, down here in the lower 48.

Ddec 4??
Most major companies tried them up here on the haul road, and couldn't make them work. The factory even sent people up to ride in them, the last one I know of tried even had the factory rep install a pittsburg power box. It came apart at something like 56,000 miles.

I did know of 2 owner operators that ran them for one winter and they stayed together.

I do not know anything about the newest detroits, but since the cummins are not holding up, several owner ops have bought new freight shakers to try the detroits.

[tommag]

Yes, it's a ddec 4. Its been modified a bit.

[starmac]

One of these days, I need to get with you on what mods you liked and actually worked. I still have a ddec 4 in a T800, that I will need a little more out of, IF I ever get around to bringing it up here. lol

I have a ddec 3 that I do have up here, but haven't run it at all since I moved up here full time, just hang on to it incase I ever have to run the lower 48 again.

[daniel lawecki]

The first I heard or saw a air start 1979. I worked at American ship yard. Big generators on lake freighters for self unloaders now those were big cats.

[Iowa Fox]

Starmac, it's hard to find fault with the 60 series, isn't it? For a couple months mine was set at 585 hp marine settings with mechanical upgrades bringing it up to around 700. Not economical, but it would pull a 6% in tenth gear, no need to shift. Now, it's only making about 525, but it's a consistent 7mpg truck, down here in the lower 48.

The early 60 series were just about bullet proof. Cat choose to go with their goofy Peek engines which put several people out of business. What morphodites.

[marvelshooter]

Never heard of a pony motor in a road truck, but I remember them in old cats. Iirc, you used a removable crank to start the pony motor and then engaged the clutch to start the engine.
I remember reading about small motors to keep the truck warm or cool at a truck stop while using much less fuel than the main engine. Did these ever become common?

[Iowa Fox]

I remember reading about small motors to keep the truck warm or cool at a truck stop while using much less fuel than the main engine. Did these ever become common?

Before I retired I saw many of the owner operators have them installed, they were about 8K dollars. I never saw any of the fleets with 1,000 power units install them. ie CRST, Heartland. They were fairly easy to take from one truck to another. Certain states had no idle laws for the main diesel. When the 2008 emissions laws took effect you had to have a certified clean idle decal affixed to the cab to be able to idle. I retired 6 1/2 years ago and I'm darn glad of it.

Caterpillar installed a lot of experimental engines at Quad Cities Kenworth in Rock Island. Some made it to production and some were short lived.

[tommag]

They are common, now. Called auxiliary power units, or apu for short.
I remember reading about small motors to keep the truck warm or cool at a truck stop while using much less fuel than the main engine. Did these ever become common?