Mauser 98 45-70 Feeding Issue

[TCLouis]

I met a friend at the range today for a plink, shoot, test day on the range.

He had told me last spring he was going to build a 45-70 on a Mauser 98 action.
I told him I thought he would have feeding issues.

Well he shows up and hands a gun to me and it feels Wonderful.
Gadfry it really handled nicely with that 20" barrel (think I woulda gone 2 more inches).

My interest is piqued and I'm kinda thinking I might want, . . . NO, I NEED one of those.

Then he mentions the downside . . .

As I predicted it will not feed.
Is it possible to modify standard 98 feed rails to consistently feed 45-70 cartridge.

With the loads the gunsmith gave him (from way back when looking at the tape on the box) 29 grains 2400 and a RN 350 coated boolit it was getting less than 1" groups at 100.

Of course when he asked it I wanted to shoot it I would only put my 24.5 AA5744 and 378 gr. Ranch Dog in it. Off target but it was nice to shoot in that format. Hogue sticky stock really felt good and handled the recoil fine.

So can they be made to feed the 45-70 relatively easily?

[Texas by God]

IMO in the 98 Mauser the .450 Marlin would have been a better choice. The Siamese Mauser can & has been converted sucessfully to 45-70 as it was designed for fat rimmed cartridges. That said , I would relieve the web area under the rails before opening the rails. If it will feed one from the magazine now- I would just use it as a bolt action single shot. Best, Thomas.

[akajun]

I built a 45/70 mosin nagant, it feeds, had to open up and deepen the bolt face, open the receiver rails, and modify the mag box. Not an easy conversion but it does work. Outfitted it in a boyds stock, timminy trigger, and a scope. YOu would not believe how accurate the lee 500gr bullet is out of that thing at subsonic velocities. Now if the atf will get off their butts and issue me my form 1 for the suppressor.
I liked it so much that I decieded to build a .458 Socom, in an ar15, which is basically the same thing.
I was going to do another bolt action, but Mosins are so expensive now that unless I find another Junker it will not happen. I have decided to do a Turkish mauser action that I have in .458 socom as well. Its a nice rimless cartridge that will feed well through the mauser. 450 bushmaster would work too.

[pietro]

.

Your friend with the .45-70 Model 98 would be well-served to locate/buy/install the triggerguard/magazine box/follower/etc of a Siamese Mauser 98 from one of the mil-surp vendors.


.

[Blackwater]

It CAN be done, because an Ackley trained 'smith friend of mine did it .... ONE TIME! He said he'd never do it again. He's the type of 'smith and man that won't charge more than he thinks a job is worth, and he wasn't bashful about charging a good price on this rifle he did, ,but he said he'd NEVER do it again! He did get it to feed right, but it was very much a cut and try ordeal, and he also had to weld on some metal where he removed too much. He's really good, too, so if HE had trouble with it, I wouldn't try it myself, and I have traditionally been pretty daring at times with what I tackled. But this is one job I wouldn't touch with a 10 ft. pole! I've heard of others doing this job as well, and never have I heard anyone call it "easy." So if you elect to pursue it, I'd just recommend lots and lots of patience, and experimenting with dummy rounds, and a lot of observation and analysis if he wants it to function smoothly and consistently. It CAN be done, but it's one huge booger to do it!

[TRX]

On my Enfield conversion I used a Remington-Lee magazine. Not sure how old it is, but it has a patent date in the 1870s. It not only feeds perfectly, it latched correctly into my No.4. Of course, the No.4 is a descendant of the Remington-Lee...

The R-L magazine is single stack and should fit up between the Mauser frame rails. Devise a latch and cut the floor plate out to act as a magazine guide.

The mag has to be removable; you load it like a 1911; "push down and slide back."

[fivefang]

Pietro, I did a 95 Steyer straight pull using the en-bloc charger by reducing the rim to 8x56r dimension, it feeds well, I have not shot it much as I have 2 very bad rotators, 53 gr. of 30 31 is MURDEROUS on shoulders with a 500gr slug

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/003-6.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/003-6.jpg.html)
This is a Mauser 1871 action barrelled for 45.70 Black Powder.this action lends itself to take 45.70 Rounds but is only a single shot.When ejecting the Cartridge the rifle is tipped over.

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/002-20_zps51190dbd.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/002-20_zps51190dbd.jpg.html)
Another View.

[samari46]

Think one of our members here did a 45/70 on the French Gras rifle some time back. I have one of the French musketoons and often thought it would be a neat conversion. My search fu stinks and could never find the posts on the conversion. The Gras I have is a single shot and 45/70 cases fit the bolt head almost as if it were made for the 45/70. Little bitty carbine with brass bands and buttplate. Sort of like a pirate gun. Frank

[Red Elk]

I would have thought a .458 Win or .458 American would have been a better conversion. You can always load it down to .45-70 Velocities.
re

[Texas by God]

[QUOTE=Col4570;384785
Another View.[/QUOTE]

That is a beautiful sporter. If it shoots as well as it looks it must be accurate. Now I have seen an 1871 as a hunting rifle- I like it! Best, Thomas.

[SierraHunter]

If I was going to do a Mauser 98 to shoot a .458" bullet, it would be a 458x2". If you were not against a .451" bullet, the 450 bushmaster would be a easier build.

I have a Turkish Mauser I want to build into a 45, but have not decided between the 2 yet.

[RustyReel]

One of the nice things about the 458x2" is that you can make cases from almost any belted mag case, 7mm rem for example, which are usually quite plentiful and inexpensive. The 450 Marlin, which I have thought about, requires a 450 Marlin case and if you live long enough you will see this round fade away..............

[Traffer]

I might have an opportunity to buy a P14. Can they be converted to the 45/70? If so, would you use the same barrel or rebarrel it? How long of a barrel is practical? Or, I was also thinking about casting for the 303 maybe even paper patching. Any advise? I would have to buy the gun without seeing it and without actually knowing the guy selling it. I think for those considerations I will have to get it pretty darn cheap. More advise?

[EDG]

The Siamese Mauser can be made to work well with the 45-70 but (and it is a BIG BUT) the Siamese Mauser has tapered/angled feed rails. the Siamese Mauser also has an angled magazine box that makes the rim of the round below tuck behind the rim of the round above. I bought a Siamese Mauser when they were $12 in about 1970 and took it apart. I did the work on the bolt face, extractor and the feed rails and had it rebarreled. It was not a very difficult process but it gave me enough knowledge to never ever try that with a normal 98 Mauser.
The Siamese Mauser used a large tapered rimmed round and the magazine had to be designed for that rimmed case. A standard 98 Mauser would way too much work. Buy a ready made 45-70 single shot. If you have to have a bolt gun find a Siamese Mauser to butcher or make a .458X2".

[SierraHunter]

One of the nice things about the 458x2" is that you can make cases from almost any belted mag case, 7mm rem for example, which are usually quite plentiful and inexpensive. The 450 Marlin, which I have thought about, requires a 450 Marlin case and if you live long enough you will see this round fade away..............
Live long enough? I don't think I've ever seen a piece of 450 marlin Brass in person.

[Texas by God]

Live long enough? I don't think I've ever seen a piece of 450 marlin Brass in person.
It's right there beside the .30 TC and .25 WSSM. Just kidding. The .450 Marlin is an excellent round that can't accidentally be fired in a 7 mag like a .458X2" can. I built a P14 in .450 Marlin and thoroughly enjoyed it. Sadly it isn't as popular as Marlin wanted it to be.

[swheeler]

Just did a quick search for 450 Marlin brass, Midway, Midsouth and Graf's all show it in stock today.

[MT Chambers]

I wouldn't suggest that anyone subject the Mauser 71 to any kind of heavy load, sure it's a Mauser but made from 1871. .458 Magnum could be catastrophic.

[map55b]

I've built a Siamese in 45-70 and an Arisaka Type 38 in 38-55, which is closer to what you are doing. The first issues will be to open the rails so that the 45-70 pops up under the exaction claw. This will more than likely take some work on the claw too. I often enlarge the area gap between the back of the claw and the bolt face, be careful here, one doesn't just start grinding. The second "issue" is that since this is a rimmed cartridge you will need the stack the rims, so that the cartridge on top is always forward of the one below it. It was suggested that you use the bottom metal of the Siamese, but this will only fit (close that is) to an intermediate action. The Siamese bottom metal will naturally address the issue of stacking the cartridges. The majority of your work will be in the rails and extractor. My Arisaka had very similar challenges and it now feeds fine from both sides of the magazine box.

[405grain]

I'm going to be starting a P14 in 45-70 after I finish with the Mauser '98 I'm working on now. I sure would love it if someone would post a picture of the feed rails on either a converted Siamese or a P14 in 45-70 so that we could see what were up against before starting. Also, for a standard '98 action, it would almost be easier to bend up a slanted magazine box and weld up your own trigger guard than to try to fit a Siamese trigger guard. With the Siamese trigger guard, the trigger and the rear action screw would need to be modified so that they would line up with the receiver. That doesn't even begin to address the feeding issues. A standard '98 in 45-70? It could be done - but it would be hard.

[Sanchez]

Re making it feed. Hope this link helps.
It's from another site & features a different caliber/action, but does have great step-by-step text & some xlnt pics.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9411043/m/843106779?r=843106779#843106779

[Texas by God]

I'm going to be starting a P14 in 45-70 after I finish with the Mauser '98 I'm working on now. I sure would love it if someone would post a picture of the feed rails on either a converted Siamese or a P14 in 45-70 so that we could see what were up against before starting. Also, for a standard '98 action, it would almost be easier to bend up a slanted magazine box and weld up your own trigger guard than to try to fit a Siamese trigger guard. With the Siamese trigger guard, the trigger and the rear action screw would need to be modified so that they would line up with the receiver. That doesn't even begin to address the feeding issues. A standard '98 in 45-70? It could be done - but it would be hard.

Consider the .450 Marlin for the P14. No bolt face/extractor changes and much easier to get the feeding right. I did it and it is a great rifle. Due to the coned breech, I had ER Shaw install & headspace the barrel. Just my .02 worth. Best, Thomas.

[Sur-shot]

I've built a Siamese in 45-70 and an Arisaka Type 38 in 38-55, which is closer to what you are doing. The first issues will be to open the rails so that the 45-70 pops up under the exaction claw. This will more than likely take some work on the claw too. I often enlarge the area gap between the back of the claw and the bolt face, be careful here, one doesn't just start grinding. The second "issue" is that since this is a rimmed cartridge you will need the stack the rims, so that the cartridge on top is always forward of the one below it. It was suggested that you use the bottom metal of the Siamese, but this will only fit (close that is) to an intermediate action. The Siamese bottom metal will naturally address the issue of stacking the cartridges. The majority of your work will be in the rails and extractor. My Arisaka had very similar challenges and it now feeds fine from both sides of the magazine box.

Glad to see that some one on here has actually built a 98 in a 45-70 conversion besides me, I have built two. The Siamese is the last version of the 98, not an early version, built for the Siamese government under contract by Arisaka of Japan. I have built two as mentioned and I polish the bolt face and open the claw face distance by thinning the claw and rounding the surfaces that might catch on or dig into the rim. The feed rails are fairly simple to adjust for the 45-70 vs the old rimmed Mauser cartridge. I am pretty sure that ER Shaw still builds the 45-70 Mausers today with their 458 barrels. One of the things you should do is chamfer the chamber edge slightly to help feed the flat nose or HP bullets.

This is my Express rifle that I built about 10 years ago. It shoots about .75 inches at 100 with a 300 JHP and a lot of R-7 and it feeds like Roscoe.
Ed

181768

[map55b]

Nice reference Sanchez. This is the basic technique that I have followed. One has to understand what needs to happen then determine what is preventing it. It not a quick fix, but something that takes patience. I've built two Siamese in 45-70. With both it was bolt face, claw and widening of the rails to get the cartridge to pop up at the right time. I did nothing to the contour below the top of the rails.

I don't think it would be a big deal to fit Siamese bottom metal to an intermediate action or a standard action. Here are some pictures showing both.
181786181787181788181789181790181791

I do not think this would solve your feeding issues, as this is an issue with the claw and rails and maybe the follower. It would help eliminate issues with the rims over lapping. This isn't a big deal, as I did a 38-55 in Jap 38. My son locked the action once by improperly loading and I simply dumped the cases from the hinged floor plate and reloaded.

[leftiye]

.Your friend with the .45-70 Model 98 would be well-served to locate/buy/install the triggerguard/magazine box/follower/etc of a Siamese Mauser 98 from one of the mil-surp vendors..

I wouldn't even start without the Siamese Mauser's magazine. The rims have to be in front of the cartridge rim below them or feeding isn't gonna happen.

[Texas by God]

Sure-shot that is a beautiful rifle.

[405grain]

Wow! What a great lot of really good information. Sur-Shot; that's a beautiful rifle. You've got some impressive craftsmanship skills. Texas by God; Thanks for the recommendations about the 450 Marlin cartridge, but I'm set on the 45-70 even though the conversion will be harder. FYI: the 1917 Enfield has the coned breech, but the Pattern 1914 that I'm going to be using was originally in 303 British, and has a flat breech. Map55b: I can see from your photos that the rear action screw on the Siamese isn't nearly as far back as I thought it was. As you point out, adapting a Siamese trigger guard to a '98 action can be done with a little work. I appreciate your recommendation about the hinged floorplate. I can see where this could be used to clear a potential jam in a matter of seconds, and would be well worth making one. Even though widening the feed rails on the underside of the receiver might not be necessary on the Siamese Mauser, the magazine box on the P14 will need to be widened to accommodate a 60 degree stacking angle on the 45-70 cartridges in the magazine. This will require that the feed rails and the trigger guard area at the bottom of the magazine box need to be opened up a little too. The follower and the mag box on the P14 are already set up for a rimmed cartridge, so after widening the box I don't think I'll need to any more modifications to those parts. Getting the feed rails to work with the 45-70 will be the real challenge. Also, there are a couple of bolt modifications that need to be done on the P14. I've already swapped out the p14 firing pin for one from an M17, and enlarged the firing pin hole to fit it. The tiny tip on the P14 firing pin was designed for Berdan primers, and could cause piercing on Boxer primers. The M17 firing pin will work better on all types of primers. Also, I don't mind the "dog leg" bolt handle on the Enfield, but on rifles that have the potential of recoiling hard I think that I should weld on a straight bolt handle to keep the handle from stinging the fingers when heavy loads are fired.
I just picked up a copy of MacFarland's "Modern Gunsmithing" so that I can read through the part on modifying the M17/P14. I've got plenty of time before I get fully involved in building the 45-70 because I still have to finish a sporterized '98 that I'm working on first. This is a good time to study up on the project, and I appreciate the advise and insights that have been posted here.

[map55b]

Happy building 405Grain! Enjoy what you do.

[Sanchez]

Ed,
Could you (or perhaps anybody else) please advise what make/brand of front sight hood is mounted upon this beautiful rig?
I've been looking for that exact model of knurled hood for quite a while.
Tnx & regards,
Phil T.


This is my Express rifle that I built about 10 years ago. It shoots about .75 inches at 100 with a 300 JHP and a lot of R-7 and it feeds like Roscoe.
Ed

181768