welding barrel

[Traffer]

This would never be something I would even consider however, someone told me that 22 rim fire barrels were not heat treated and could be welded on. Here is my need:
I am in the process of making a break open 22 WRF. I have a 22 Rifle barrel from a Marlin 60. I need to put a lug on it for hinging the barrel. I am also going to place a schedule 80 pipe over the last few inches of the barrel to help with strength. I had originally thought to place a lug on the sleeve (pipe) and pin the sleeve to the barrel. Now however I see that if I bore the pipe it will have just slightly too large of a diameter to effectively pin to the barrel. So I am considering welding the lug directly to the barrel. Am I cooking up a recipe for disaster? Or can this be done?

[DougGuy]

It can be done but you will have shrinkage because it's the nature of steel that is welded. The bore could end up being slightly constricted where the weld is or at the very least become slightly "D" shaped. Silver brazing would likely be the better process to attach the lug with. In this process the whole barrel where the brazing will be done will be a dull cherry red, but will cool evenly and won't shrink as much if any and won't become "D" shaped where the lug is.

If you could get away with just tacking the lug in place with a little weld on each end, you could probably get away with it.

How thick is the barrel where you want to weld? What is the O.D. and how big do you expect the lug to be?

[country gent]

Another issue will be the stress induced by the weld. One thing that will help alot is to pre heat the pieces before welding to aid in welds penetration and flow. Then slowly cool the joints. I would also recomend instead of the schedule 80 tunig that a piece of mecanical tubing in the proper alloy be purchased for this. This will make for stronger more even welds also. A second thought is could the lug be welded to the tubing then bored and threaded with a fine thread. then the barrel threaded into this and timed up as neded? this would keep all the heat and distortion in a part that can be machined true after the welding and keep the high heats off the barrel. The barrel stub could even be soldered into the lug tube assembly. I would simply tack weld the lug in location onthe tube then pre heat in an oven or charcoa lfire to dull red or just below it, then tig weld with the proper filler. This will give the best flow mix and penetration for the weld. then back into the oben or charcoal fire and let it burn put and slowly cool to ambient temp. A lightly snug fitting plug in the tubeing will also help to make it easier to handle.

[Traffer]

Wow thanks for the expert insight guys. It dawned on me that I could thread the barrel and the sleeve and weld the lug to the sleeve (before attaching to the barrel. The barrel diameter the last 3 1/2" is .741". Do you think that is close enough to 3/4" to thread it to 3/4" extremely fine thread? Or go to just fine thread? Or a different size completely? The next practical size would 18mm but I don't want to take it down that much if I don't have to. Also where would I get the mechanical tubing instead of the schedule 80 pipe? Thanks again. Can't wait to get this done. If it comes out well I might make a 45/70 next. Probably go to a falling block for that though.

[oldred]

I did something very similar to this not long ago except it was a .410 shotgun round rather than a 22 RF, Country Gent's excellent suggestion seems right on and to me it sounds like the perfect solution.

[DougGuy]

Also where would I get the mechanical tubing instead of the schedule 80 pipe?

I think you could use chrome moly tubing. They make this CrMo tubing in a plethora of dimensions, mostly thin wall but probably quite adequate for what you are doing.

[Reg]

You might want to check bore diameters. Do you mean you are making a WRF or a WRM. The normal groove dia. of a .22 rimfire is .221 / .222 where the WRM is .224. Not sure about the WRF but I fail to see where anyone would want to make a WRF these days. Ammo , you know. Pricy and hard to get.
A WRM in a small bore would be a pressure machine.

[country gent]

Online metals may have what you need do a search for mechanical tubing. 4140,4440, or 8620 should all be aplicable for this use. SOme of the metal venders that cater to the home machinists will sell ny very small lengths. As long as the barrel is round and straight .741 is only .009 under 3/4" (.750) thats only .0045 on a side so it shouldnt hurt any thing there. As to thread pitch I wouldgo extra fine which I think is 28 threads per inch. Less thread depth not so important on barel but may matter more on the sleeves wall thickness. You might consider turning the barrel so there is a shoulder for the sleeve to but up to and lock on. maybe a 5/8 extra fine threaded stub on the barrel and this will leave a little more wall in the sleeve also.With out the shoulder locking it together in location may be tricky.

[BigEyeBob]

machine or cut a female dovetail into the underside of the barrel , male dovetail on the lug ,knock it in and silver solder it in place .

[Traffer]

Ugh! I meant WMR or 22 magnum. I The bore had rust so I honed it with some lapping compound. I have another Model 60 barrel to compare it with...you can tell I made it a little bigger but didn't slug it. I am happy with where it is at. Yes 22 Winchester Magnum Rifle. The reason I went with the schedule 80 pipe is that it is .15" wall thickness. The extra steel should give me some more strength.

You might want to check bore diameters. Do you mean you are making a WRF or a WRM. The normal groove dia. of a .22 rimfire is .221 / .222 where the WRM is .224. Not sure about the WRF but I fail to see where anyone would want to make a WRF these days. Ammo , you know. Pricy and hard to get.
A WRM in a small bore would be a pressure machine.

[Traffer]

It already has the dovetail right where I need it. (if I turn the barrel upside down)I wasn't sure if that would be strong enough. But it is a good idea ...maybe I will try it.

machine or cut a female dovetail into the underside of the barrel , male dovetail on the lug ,knock it in and silver solder it in place .

[Traffer]

Another novice question. Is silver soldering stronger than brazing? I thought that brazing was a little stronger but don't actually know. I have a bolt handle for a 22lr that I was going to braze on but if silver soldering is stronger I will do that (I assume you mean the high heat silver solder)

[Traffer]

Speaking of the bolt handle that needs to be attached. It is from a Remington 514. Originally it was "soldered" in the factory with a copper solder or braze. I broke it off pounding on it with a rubber hammer. Then I mangled it with a welder. So I made a new handle but have not attached it. I do not have a oxy-acetylene torch to braze it and it looks like it does not have the clearance to tig weld (don't have a tig welder anyway) My question is this:
Is there anyone out there who can do this that would be willing to do it for me. I will pay for the service. If you are interested, I can post pictures.

[DougGuy]

They are fairly close. Brazing (using brass filler rod) is better when the pieces aren't fitted tightly together, silver solder, which we also call silver braze or hard solder is better when the pieces fit together real tight and there is a very thin solder joint.

Some people call oxy-acetylene welding with carbon steel wire brazing, this would be stronger than brass filler or silver braze.

I do have a tig machine if you need your bolt welded.

[oldred]

Some people call oxy-acetylene welding with carbon steel wire brazing, this would be stronger than brass filler or silver braze.


Oxy-Acetylene welding is true fusion welding and not at all like brazing, it is almost exactly like TIG welding except for the heat source and shielding gas but the end result is pretty much the same. Of course TIG also has the huge advantage of much better heat control.

BTW, brazing is done with bronze alloy not brass.

[DougGuy]

BTW, brazing is done with bronze alloy not brass.

Yes, we call it brass because of it's color.

[jmorris]

If you have a break open rifle or pistol open it up and take a look. Many barrels are TIG welded to the lug. For low pressure rounds soldering or brazing with silicon bronze rod would likely work too.

I machine the lug and barrel for the most part then weld them together.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/Tc/IMG_20160304_121205_366_zpsgcvbonah.jpg

After the two are together, I chamber the barrel and machine for the extractor, machine the pivot and drill and tap for scope mounts.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/Tc/IMG_20160304_124329_788-1_zpsub6w2vfg.jpg

The first 20 shot group at 60 yards.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/Tc/IMG_20160404_125207_861-1_zpsp33jdd1f.jpg

[BigEyeBob]

Another novice question. Is silver soldering stronger than brazing? I thought that brazing was a little stronger but don't actually know. I have a bolt handle for a 22lr that I was going to braze on but if silver soldering is stronger I will do that (I assume you mean the high heat silver solder)

Silver or hard solder is very strong ,if the joint is a good fit . When I was working , I managed to get a packet of high grade silver solder msde by Astra iirc , the sales person told me it has been tested to 40,000lbs and was good for high pressure application . We used it on hydraulic fittings etc.
The most important thing is that the joint must be clean for the solder to stick and run into the joint.Best to "tin" the parts individually , fit them together and then heat the parts until you see the solder melt and run together .

[Ballistics in Scotland]

UOTE=Traffer;3844256]It already has the dovetail right where I need it. (if I turn the barrel upside down)I wasn't sure if that would be strong enough. But it is a good idea ...maybe I will try it.[/QUOTE]

I think he meant a lengthwise dovetail to insert the underlug. I don't know that I like that idea, which would either be closer to the bore than I like, or leave thin metal at the sides of the dovetail. If the underlug is only about ¼in. wide I think it would be better to mill a non-dovetail slot in the barrel itself, and silver solder it. Brownells Silvaloy 355 comes in a thin ribbon.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/solders-flux/silvaloy-355-silver-solder-prod584.aspx

The lugs of shotguns used to be dovetailed and brazed in, but somewhere around 1943 the introduction of good silver solders largely replaced it. The lumps would still be dovetailed, those that aren't made from chopper lump tubes, with half the lump forged as part of eah one. But there is a lot less thrust in a .22, even the Magnum. Silver solder isn't as strong as brazing alloys, but it gives better penetration into close joints, and the lower temperature, even to dull red, is useful. Even a little overheating in the brazing process can "burn" the steel. That is why the continental Europeans so often went over to a monobloc construction, with the barrels sleeved and soft soldered into a forged and machined stub.



If you do want to make a short sleeve for the rear of the barrel, the lugs could be milled in the bottom half of a piece of, say, 1½in by ¾in. steel. The top half is then drilled, and a couple of washers attached with a lengthwise threaded rod used to file the top to a round or octagonal section. If you use tube you could slot it, silver solder in the lugs just proud of the bore of the tube, and then ream it to the internal diameter for inserting your barrel.

[Traffer]

I know the differences between different types of welding and soldering. I have not done any brazing in perhaps 45 years. And have never silver soldered. When I did braze I used an oxy-acetylene torch. I would think that a propane torch would not have enough heat to braze or silver solder with. Here is a picture of the barrel and the schedule 80 pipe. The barrel from the dovetail back is .741" I had originally intended to just make a tight fit between the barrel and the pipe then pin it. But the pipe will have too big of an inner diameter if I bore or ream it to a good straight bore. I have practically no tools. A cheap solid core wire feed welder and dremels and a small drill press. So my options are very limited. If it was safe to just weld the lug on to the barrel, that would solve the problem. I will probably end up doing that.
The bolt handle for the Remington 514 is a different situation entirely. these pictures show that there is no place for any weld material. When it was attached in the factory they used a copper solder. You can see remnants of the copper on the bolt. I have made a new handle that would work if I could attach it. I only know of brazing and soldering with an oxy-acetylene torch. If I had one I would braze it on and be done with it. I am not a tig welder. Maybe if you chamfered the lug on the bolt handle you could get a bead in there. You might be able to tell by the pictures. I included a picture of a Remington 514 bolt with the handle attached the way it came from the factory for comparison also. The middle pic is of the bolt with fabricated handle being held in place.
180795180796180797

[jmorris]

What exactly are your intentions, as far as the rest of the firearm? What donor? What extra parts do you have to work with?

The bolt handle could be TIG welded even if it was just fused it would be strong enough and you could isolate heat to just that area.

[Traffer]

The bolt has nothing to do with the gun build. That was stated early on in the thread. I mentioned it because we were talking about soldering.
As far as my intentions with the gun,
I intend to make a receiver from welded steel with a slot in the middle for a trigger hammer assembly that I have from a shotgun. This is the auction with pictures of that module.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/322273840805?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
From a Noble 80 shotgun. I need to figure out how to cock the hammer after the mechanism is buried in the receiver. Those are the only parts I have so far. I just want something that will shoot 22 WMR because I intend on reloading that caliber. Also planning on making a new round. 22 WSMR. It will be a short 22 mag made from cutting the neck off of 17HMR cases. Making it .85" in length instead of the 1.05" of the regular 22 WMR. I am really looking forward to the loading work. Making the gun is not exiting for me because I lack decent tools. If I had a mill and a lathe, tig welder etc. I would be making guns all the time. Would love to make my a 45/70 with a long barrel to play with. Why don't I just buy the guns? Good question....for the same reason I started reloading 22lr. Poverty stricken.

[jmorris]

Would be a lot easier project with at least a lathe and/or mill. You have your work cut out for you with the tools you have.

Be sure to take lots of photos as you go and post in the special projects area once you get there.

Not sure how you were intending to "bore" your pipe out with just a drill press but you should take a look at Wicks aircraft they sell seamless 4130 tubing in many diameters and wall thicknesses by the foot and list the ID's to the thousandths of an inch.

[Jeff Michel]

Just a suggestion(s) if you go the silver brazing/soldering route. Make sure your have clearance at the joint, a couple thousandths is enough. I use a prick punch and raise a couple burrs through out the joint surface. Use a jig to hold the two parts. They will be at a red heat and hot things like to move when you least want them. Clean the mating surfaces clean, use acid or abrasive, no oil based solvents and do not touch the surfaces with a bare hand after you cleaned them. Flux, use alot, make sure it's rated to the temperature that you will be brazing at 1100-1250F usually. Use 55% silver bearing braze, Safety-Silv is a good brand, cadmium free. I like to use 50% Ez-Flo, it does contain cadmium but if you have proper ventilation or do it out doors it's nothing to worry about. The higher percentages of silver and or containing cadmium flows better and is more appropriate for joining surfaces that are closer fitting (no buildup). Do not use HVAC type silver solder, it is not suitable for joining ferrous metals. As for a heat source, if you have a big propane torch (Sievert) that works real well, oxy/acetylene I have found is a bit too hot and harder to control, I use a rose bud for Oxy/Acetylene. Have a proper place to do this, a brazing hearth if you will, to better control your process and to be comfortable and safer when you do it. And lastly, practice........a lot, develop a technique. Your dealing with some pretty impressive temperatures, knowing what to expect and having the proper safety gear is real important. Silver soldering/brazing is a real valuable skill to develop. I wish you luck should you like to try it.

[leadman]

The current method to hold new liners in barrels that have been drilled out is to use glass bedding material. You could call Mike Sayer's at T.J.'s, phone 859-635-5560 and ask him is this could be used in your situation. If possible to use this it would make it a very simple job.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

For fitting a full-length liner what the professionals mostly use now is one of the bearing-fitting grades of Loctite. There is a whole series of them, specified in the width of gap they will fill, the temperature they will withstand, etc. If you search for posts on lining by John Taylor, who does the job, you will find more information.

http://na.henkel-adhesives.com/industrial/retaining-compound-14963.htm

In that application they are entirely reliable. But I wouldn't use them for a short sleeve. Strength of the joint is proportional to its length, and it is located at the part of the barrel that gets hottest, sometimes even in a single shot. Epoxy certainly loses some of its strength when it is either hot or cold, and I would be surprised if Loctite doesn't.

In answer to an earlier question, other things being equal brazing is stronger than silver soldering. But things aren't equal if you are filling an excessively wide gap, or don't get perfect penetration. A lot of bad joints are made by overheating when something other than insufficient heat is the problem. That is why I would favour a thin ribbon of solder, or a solder and flux paste. You don't have to get it to travel into the joint when it is already there.

Work like jmorris showed us isn't for the amateur (e.g. me) who has just rented his first TIG machine. When I spoke of a lengthwise dovetail I was thinking of something like an antique Tranter rimfire with a an underlug only a quarter inch wide. With one as wide as the TC design that wouldn't be possible. Silver soldering or brazing ought to be fine for that, but if you were designing from scratch I would recommend an extractor with two round rods. That way you could have a continuous concave curved surface, matching the barrel, all the way along the lug.

Attaching a bolt handle is a much easier situation than a barrel underlug. It isn't the gas pressure operating on the handle, just you, and if the joint fails, the worst that can happen is that the bolt doesn't get opened or doesn't get closed. Extremely good heat control is important in a centerfire bolt action, where a hardened cam adjacent to the weld applies primary extraction to a large and tightly expanded cartridge case. But it shouldn't be critical in a rimfire.

[Traffer]

Wow, nice work! I only dream of being able to do that kind of work. Pretty sure I'm going with threading the barrel and welding a lug to that (while it is off the barrel)


If you have a break open rifle or pistol open it up and take a look. Many barrels are TIG welded to the lug. For low pressure rounds soldering or brazing with silicon bronze rod would likely work too.

I machine the lug and barrel for the most part then weld them together.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/Tc/IMG_20160304_121205_366_zpsgcvbonah.jpg

After the two are together, I chamber the barrel and machine for the extractor, machine the pivot and drill and tap for scope mounts.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/Tc/IMG_20160304_124329_788-1_zpsub6w2vfg.jpg

The first 20 shot group at 60 yards.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/Tc/IMG_20160404_125207_861-1_zpsp33jdd1f.jpg

[DougGuy]

The bolt handle for the Remington 514 is a different situation entirely. these pictures show that there is no place for any weld material. 180796

The easy way to do this one is to bevel the longitudinal sides of the dovetail, and TiG weld in this bevel. I would not weld across the radial surface for risking drawing the bolt to the point it may not go back into the receiver but I think making two welds, one on each side running longways would be sufficient to hold your bolt handle and not draw the bolt so bad it wouldn't go back into the receiver.

Also, as far as welding the lug on your barrel, if you can re-ream the chamber after TiG welding the lug, this would be the best way.

[Traffer]

I appreciate your insight into this stuff. You are educating me for many future projects by sharing your wisdom. I have a tube of loctite 360 in the refrigerator that I had forgotten about. Do you think it would be OK to tap the schedule 80 pipe for a short sleeve even if it is a bit .750" compared to the barrel .741" oversize? I could screw it on with the Loctite 360 and that should be plenty strong. Considering the barrel attachment scenario and my tools and skills, (I agree with you about jmorris.) I know enough about welding to know that tig welding, especially at that level is not something you just watch a video on and start doing. It reminds me of a time when I was a process server (serving subpoena's and summons') I walked into a shop in Chelmsford Massachusetts. There was a guy welding with a "bunch" of those 500 watt Halogen lights and a big very powerful magnifying glass. He apologized for the lights as he turned them off and said that he used them so he could see what he was doing without lifting his welding helmet. He was a welder that as he said "the boys" at Raytheon, would bring him stuff that nobody else could weld. He had to study the alloy compositions before even beginning to set up. I told him I wanted to quit my job and just sit and watch him work.
Concerning the bolt handle...On this particular gun, the Remington 514, the bolt handle is actually the locking lug also. You may be able to tell by this picture.
180876
You maybe able to tell by this picture. "Douguy" has offered to tig weld it so I am sending it to him for that.
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

[QUOTE=Ballistics in Scotland;3846763]For fitting a full-length liner what the professionals mostly use now is one of the bearing-fitting grades of Loctite. There is a whole series of them, specified in the width of gap they will fill, the temperature they will withstand, etc. If you search for posts on lining by John Taylor, who does the job, you will find more information.

[DougGuy]

There is also some stuff called Fluid Weld. It has the same stuff in it they use to attach tiles to the space shuttle and can withstand temps of 3,000F and if your sleeve can be made to fit snug enough, all you need is some Fluid Weld. It joins metals by etching them so it is chemically welded together. I can tell you one thing, I have set a steel bearing retainer nut into a billet aluminum bore, and I was really not ready for the fact that I had to totally destroy both pieces to separate them.

Loctite compared to Fluid Weld is like comparing lepage's glue you used in first grade to super glue.

This is the baddest stuff in the entire world for fixing cracks in aluminum cylinder heads..

If you can push your barrel tightly into the sleeve after welding the lug on, like coat the barrel with with Fluid Weld, you best make DANG SURE it is where you want it, because once that stuff sets, you will NEVER move it without totally destroying both pieces..

http://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/kl1378.html

As an afterthought, I have both a lathe and a Sunnen hone, so it is possible to get a piece of CrMo tubing, weld a lug onto it, hone it to make it round, turn the barrel to an interference fit, and press the two together using Fluid Weld to bond them. And I also have some Fluid Weld.

[Tokarev]

My son says that with a proper pre-heat he can weld almost anything to almost everything. After graduating from a TIG/MIG/SMAW welding course last year he's been very busy studying for university admission, but still managed to make some re-enactment gear, including a few hand-axes, battle-axes, helmets, bodkins, spearpoints and other stuff, where he welded a mix of stainless and carbon heat-treated steel together and to mild steel with ease. The only weld failure he experienced was with a curved helmet made completely of mild steel 20 gauge sheet, where he was afraid to burn through with TIG and held the Ampers down too much.

This can be done by a qualified welder!

Also, the shotguns of the olden days were almost exclusively soft soldered and still survived a hundred years of recoil. Soft solder is incredibly strong as a thin layer between the steel parts. 22 WMR should have no problem with a soldered on lug. I would not use brazing, as that would require a large area of a barrel to be heated to red glow for quite some time, completely annealing it.

John Taylor here, whom I hold in highest regard, swears by Locktite, and I had a chance to test his theory in my revolver cylinder and caliber conversions. This stuff holds like nails.

[jmorris]

The only weld failure he experienced was with a curved helmet made completely of mild steel 20 gauge sheet, where he was afraid to burn through with TIG and held the Ampers down too much.


With a TIG you can get really precise in the application of heat.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/tig.jpg

[Traffer]

No, with a tig YOU can get a precise application of heat. Us mortals just melt holes.

With a TIG you can get really precise in the application of heat.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/tig.jpg

[SSGOldfart]

This would never be something I would even consider however, someone told me that 22 rim fire barrels were not heat treated and could be welded on. Here is my need:
I am in the process of making a break open 22 WRF. I have a 22 Rifle barrel from a Marlin 60. I need to put a lug on it for hinging the barrel. I am also going to place a schedule 80 pipe over the last few inches of the barrel to help with strength. I had originally thought to place a lug on the sleeve (pipe) and pin the sleeve to the barrel. Now however I see that if I bore the pipe it will have just slightly too large of a diameter to effectively pin to the barrel. So I am considering welding the lug directly to the barrel. Am I cooking up a recipe for disaster? Or can this be done?
You might want to check out special projects section,I think Jmorris,has done the very same thing making a contender barrel by welding lug on his blank barrel, very good step by step write up.

[Traffer]

Well I figured out a solution: Get all the parts together and send them to jmorris to machine and weld. Easy peazy!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Also, the shotguns of the olden days were almost exclusively soft soldered and still survived a hundred years of recoil. Soft solder is incredibly strong as a thin layer between the steel parts. 22 WMR should have no problem with a soldered on lug. I would not use brazing, as that would require a large area of a barrel to be heated to red glow for quite some time, completely annealing it.

No they weren't. The ribs and packing-pieces between the barrels were soft soldered, but don't bear the force of recoil. The barrels were normally flat on the last few inches of their inner sides, and brazed together for most of the double shotgun's history. At first the lumps or underlugs were dovetailed and brazed into the barrel assembly, but later, in quality guns, this was replaced by chopper lumps, in which half of the lump was an integral part of each tube, with the joint running vertically down the middle. This device was known as a theoretical possibility long before it came into common use, because the lumps needed to be of a harder steel than could be made into good barrels. But eventually it could.

After WW2 a change was made from brazing to improved grades of silver solder, which may have been marginally weaker if the job was done right, but was better at flowing into the joint, and melted at temperatures less likely to be exceeded enough to "burn" the steel. Despite the annealing, good shotguns and extremely powerful big game doubles have been assembled by brazing or silver soldering.

Soft solder is definitely not safe to attach an underlug, even for a .22, unless it is in the form of an integral underlug and tubular sleeve and secured by a mechanically fitting thread or flange on the barrel. I would say the same of Loctite, but it does have one important advantage, which I think accounts for its replacement of soft solder as used by the best barrel liners. If Loctite deforms by an exceedingly small amount under pressure, it springs back. Lead solder stays where it is put, ready to creep a bit further the next time.

Fluid Weld looks extremely promising. But the way it is described as working, it may require a very closely fitting joint. Also I have "The NRA Gunsmithing Guide Updated", which has an article on lining with now-superseded versions of Loctite. With these the liner had to be a smooth running fit, and inserted without stopping, or it would be arrested and stay where it is, removable only with heat. There is a chance that that might also apply with Fluid Weld.

[John Taylor]

I have made more than a few replacement barrels for shotguns and T/C pistols. Most of the ones I have done are silver soldered together. Welding that is done on factory T/C barrels is done under controlled conditions so there won't be hards spots in the barrel. All welds shrink as far as I know and I have tried welding on barrel with the result being a tight spot in the bore. Welding a lug on a T/C barrel and then chambering it might take care of the tight spot if the chamber is long enough. I still weld on barrels but they get a liner after the welding so the bore is good. The welding is reserved for old barrels that would be hard to duplicate.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Hard to duplicate and possibly not as subject to air-hardening as modern ones. I would feel happier with a carbide chambering reamer for use after welding, and the economics of a chambering reamer for the amateur become even worse with one of those.

This is totally guesswork, but it may be that people like Thompson Center weld their barrels preheated to a high temperature, which probably means some kind of low-oxidising atmosphere and equipment that can operate in it. That would bring barrel and lug close to contracting the same amount, and could permit much slower cooling.

[jmorris]

Welding that is done on factory T/C barrels is done under controlled conditions so there won't be hards spots in the barrel.

I have seen more failed T/C welded lugs than ones I have welded but I haven't welded near as many as they have.

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=175

I use regular HSS reamers to chamber when I am done.

[Traffer]

jmorris' link to the failed lugs is revealing. I have been a production welder and know exactly what is going on there. Some pretty bad welding and quality control. When you have welded for a while you can tell if you are getting good penetration or if you are just laying a pretty bead on top. The guy who welded that must have been a noob that was not supervised well or someone who knew they were making a very poor weld and did it anyway. I have seen people do that kind of thing on purpose. Bad workers, people with a grudge against their company or boss etc.
I came up with another idea that is going to be the way I proceed here. The barrel will be threaded to 3/4-10. I got a threaded rod coupler that is hex shaped. Going to weld the lug to the rod coupler and thread the barrel and screw it on with Loctite 380 in the threads for a good strong fit. That ought to hold. The only problem is threading that barrel straight. I have come up with a plan for that too. I sure hope I don't screw this up.

[jmorris]

When you have welded for a while you can tell if you are getting good penetration

Yes, the guy or gal laying it down will be the only one that knows too, unless you X-Ray and there is no way that would have made it out the door had that been done.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I once MIG welded a stainless forestay fitting for a sailing boat, which stood hard service but looked ugly. Strength and neatness together are the hard bit, and it looks like that Marlin welder, with luck exceptional and on an exceptional day, tried too hard for elegance. I'm not surprised jmorris left more of a bevel than they did, to admit the weld.

[jmorris]

more of a bevel than they did, to admit the weld.

What it looks like on that 2nd specimen is a failure in design. It looks like the part was machined to match the contour of the barrel so a fusion weld had very little contact between the two parts.

With an area for a fillet weld to be placed it is much less likely to have such a small area actually welded together.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20161123_112543_125-1_zpsndehdllc.jpg

[justashooter]

Why not just buy a junker shotgun barrel with existing underlug, cut off the shotgun barrel in front of the chamber, and turn the 22 barrel OD to slip fit, then silver solder it into place. Hell, in the case of a 22WRF, why not just drill and thread the sleeve for a set screw and divot the barrel for the pointed set screw?

[DougGuy]

Concerning the bolt handle...On this particular gun, the Remington 514, the bolt handle is actually the locking lug also. You may be able to tell by this picture.
180876
You maybe able to tell by this picture. "Douguy" has offered to tig weld it so I am sending it to him for that.
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

I think we got something here that will work..

181336 181338

[jmorris]

Why not just buy a junker shotgun barrel with existing underlug, cut off the shotgun barrel in front of the chamber, and turn the 22 barrel

He doesn't have a lathe. If he could turn, there would be no reason to ruin the shotgun just machine the barrel as an insert.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151110_173054_193_zpsv7rbpnbt.jpg

[Traffer]

I'm really glad this thread is generating so much interest. I am learning a lot here, about many things. Great stuff guys. But just a reminder...I am doing this as an alternative to buying a cheap 22 Mag because of my budget. Trying to get this gun completed for under $80. And my tools are dremel, cheap table top drill press, hand tools and a flux core wire feed welder. This is all easy stuff if you have the tools and money. But for my parameters quite a challenge. So far I have spent:
$15 on a trigger group with hammer (not even sure I can incorporate it into the design yet)
$23 for two Marlin Model 60 Barrels (Old longer type) I have two because the first one was rusted inside. I complained to the seller on eBay and he sent me another one that looks almost like new old stock. I paid $13 for the first one and felt bad that he gave me such a good deal that I sent him another $10. And when I found out that the 22 mag has a very slightly larger diameter bore, I honed the pitting out with some lapping compound and it turned out pretty good.
$3 for a 3/4" rod coupling.
$14 on some flat steel
$7 on a piece of schedule 80 pipe
I also have purchased some tools and some more steel which can also be used on other projects so it is not really fair to count it in the cost of the gun. But my budget is going to go over the $80 anyway.
But even if you have ideas that are out of my price range please keep them coming.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Why not just buy a junker shotgun barrel with existing underlug, cut off the shotgun barrel in front of the chamber, and turn the 22 barrel OD to slip fit, then silver solder it into place. Hell, in the case of a 22WRF, why not just drill and thread the sleeve for a set screw and divot the barrel for the pointed set screw?

If the shotgun is a 12ga or similar, it is going to be either a very heavy or unpleasantly bottle-shaped barrel. But unless the barrel is very thick, silver soldering into that shotgun-barrel sleeve may cause a bore constriction as it cools. In this particular situation a rimfire barrel held by fitting the rim recess will do very well with soft solder or Loctite. For higher pressures and a larger area of pressure, which are permissible with some though not all single shotguns, it would make sense for the barrel to closely fit the shotgun forcing cone too. If the shotgun barrel extends a few inches forward of the underlug it would both look better, because it is thinner, and provide an easy way of drilling for a rear open sight or scope bases.

In rmorris's picture in post 43 the left-hand picture, although badly suited to welding, is just what you would need for silver soldering. Not surrounding the bore, it can't constrict it. I'd prefer, in this case, to arrange a tunnel for the extractor, with continuous metal to metal right across the underlug.

Obviously rmorris has established that the effect of welding heat isn't deep enough, in his work, to do any harm. As an illustration of what ill-considered welding can do, however, I once experimented with MIG welding on pieces of scrap O1 tool steel. This hardens easily enough for the milder quenching action of oil rather than water, but although nominally it isn't air-hardening, that does take place to some extent. Heat a thin piece and let it cool quickly in air, and it sometimes hardens enough to be a bad spring. I found that the weld broke out under stress, and it wasn't the mild steel MIG wire, but the tool steel that should have been far stronger. Maybe annealing would have set that right, but I don't know.