Two guns to rule them all!

[Blackwater]

I know a lot of folks here are seeking to improve their shooting, and I salute every one of you. I figured it might help to note that there are 2 guns, that, if you learn to shoot them well, you'll be able to shoot ANY handgun well. Those 2 guns are the Super Blackhawk .44 mag. and the .45 ACP 1911 type pistols.

With the .44, you'll have to learn a good, consistent and FIRM (not tight, but firm) grip. With the .45, and its double shuffle recoil due to the slide's back and forth action, and its effect on recoil sensation, you'll learn "follow through," or the ability to keep the gun steady throughout the recoil cycle.

Learn to shoot these 2 guns, and you'll pretty well be able to pick up most ANY handgun, and shoot it well. This ain't no small thing, either! When one can pick up a gun and deliver accuracy with it, if it's got accuracy in it to get out of it, it breeds a confidence and satisfaction that continually practicing with milder, easier to shoot guns will NEVER be able to create within you.

With the .44, you'll need to learn a good, FIRM grip, which means firm enough to keep it under control in firing and through the recoil process, where that rounded back on the grip will allow the gun to "slip" in your hands as the barrel rises in recoil. That pressure you grip it with HAS to be very consistent, or it'll affect your POI, and you'll get vertical stringing.

The .45 teaches you to keep the gun stable in your hand as it goes through its unique recoil cycle, and the slide first pushes it back and then forth as it closes. Learn to shoot one of those, and your follow through will be greatly improved with all other handguns you may ever shoot.

Just throught I'd drop this little pearl in here for those who are struggling for accuracy. Don't be afraid of the .44. It won't hurt you, as long as you don't "limp wrist it," which CAN make autos malfunction because the gun doesn't have a firm "wall" to push against while the slide comes back against mainspring pressure. Limp wristing also is an anathema to shooting stronger recoiling SA's, too, because it doesn't keep the gun under much control, and it will inevitably be inconsistent as well, usually rising in grip tension as follow up shots are made, and thus, giving lots of vertical dispersion. Remember, recoil begins when the bullet first starts to move in the cylinder, continues as it passes the barrel/cylinder gap, and proceeds down the barrel. A firm grip makes it shoot lower. A light grip higher, simply because a light grip lets it recoil higher before the bullet leaves the barrel.

If you want to shoot better, and have friends with either or both of these guns, try them. You may be surprised at how a simple challenge like they provide CAN make you a MUCH better shot, and it usually doesn't take nearly as long as merely continuing to shoot the "wrong way." There's really no "wrong" way, but there ARE ways that tend to work best, and most consistently. And in almost all cases (not quite, but almost all), a firm grip will yield your very best results, and some people are shocked when they see what a difference it can make.

FWIW?

[RJM52]

...would have to disagree in part only because you have failed to address Double Action shooting at all...

Bob

[adcoch1]

I am amazed at how comfortable to shoot the 44 blackhawk really is, and i usually am almost suprised at the jumpy feeling of smaller caliber guns after I've been shooting the blackhawk. I do believe that single shot accuracy is best mastered in this platform. But the use of a firm grip AND double action control instantly becomes important when I pick up the 44 Redhawk... Just my .02

[psweigle]

The only fault I can find in your post is the absence of the double action revolver. They take an entirely different technique .

[patrick_ford]

Let's not forget the Da/Sa semi auto with its differing trigger pull.

[Dan Cash]

No good deed goes unpunished. The OP is saying learn these two basics and you can branch out with success. I tend to think of the DA revolver as several of you do but when I finally got consistent with my single action Colt, the DA revolver improved too.

[str8wal]

Both are single actions. I don't know how much that will lend to the DAO and DA/SA guns.

[44man]

I do not allow any "slip" in the hand.

[DougGuy]

Here is the basic core skill for mastering a handgun. It is very simple. You *MUST* be able to dry fire the handgun and hold the sights motionless, in perfect alignment as the hammer falls.

When you can do this with any handgun, you will always be a good shot. When the sights jump around when the hammer falls, that boolit went to wherever the sights were pointed. If you pull the front sight down and to the left when it falls, your groups will show this too. You must practice until you can "teach" your finger how to pull on the trigger so it maintains proper alignment of the front sight, and then you commit this to memory and employ it in live fire.

If your handgun is so stiff or gritty at the trigger that you simply cannot hold the sights in alignment, then it is time to address the trigger mechanism and or the springs so that you can get the mechanics of the gun to allow you to hold the sights in proper alignment.

[Bigslug]

Nope. I would have to call the DA revolver the better "cure all" for marksmanship difficulties.

A 1911, SAO revolver, or even Glock-ish triggers will often create a misconception that you can yank the trigger when you think the sights are going to cross your intended point of impact. When I see that among my students, I break out a .22 Smith 63 and it usually helps the light bulb come on. A DA wheelie clearly points out that it's more about executing a clean trigger press than mashing the trigger while trying to force the gun to hold still - which is an impossibility. The SA systems are great, but not until you assimilate that.

[ole 5 hole group]

I don't know about this "shooting hypothesis" - as a young lad I was taught perfect sight aliment and trigger control with everything else being consistent. Your grip had to be consistent and you knew what grip pressure was needed after that 1st shot.;)

Keeping those sights aligned wasn't a problem for me - the problem was controlling the handguns movement with excellent trigger control. In order to shoot small one has to keep that "wiggle radius" small with good trigger control & sight alignment and the only way I know how to do that is with strength training. There are other factors but I put them into the "classification" of fine tuning.

If you don't possess the arm, wrist and finger strength necessary to shoot small - sufficient quality trigger time will get you to the party, but you'll never find that special gal without strength training and the older we get - the more important strength training is. Once you have sufficient strength - then it's getting your timing down as those sights come & go across that X-ring. Just my opinion.

[Green Frog]

If I were limited by law or finances to a specific small number I would at least TRY to keep 3 handguns to handle all of my basic needs. I would want at a minimum a 45 on John Browning's patent, probably my 70 Series Colt, a stainless adjustable sighted revolver, probably a Model 66 S&W, and some sort of 22 rimfire, either a K-22 from S&W or a High Standard Supermatic. Of course I could use a 22 conversion on my Gold Cup (a "Gold-Ace" or an "Ace-Cup"?) then I could have 4 options for little more than the cost of 3. Yep, 2 is just too confining a number, but 3 is getting close to right! :mrgreen:

Froggie

[44man]

Once you have sufficient strength - then it's getting your timing down as those sights come & go across that X-ring. Just my opinion.
Does not work. You must apply pressure so the gun is not made to go off even if it wiggles.
Strength is needed to keep wiggles down but you must never make the gun shoot as it crosses the target. Speed shooters still have trigger control. The best are adding pressure before the next steel is in line.

[ole 5 hole group]

I don't know about that Jim - once your sights have crossed that X-ring you crease applying trigger pressure until the sights start coming back - otherwise you're gonna punch a 7 or 8 at 50 yards - a 9 at 25 yards.;)

I'm thinking you're misunderstanding my meaning of "timing" - In no sense of the definition was I implying that you "jerk" the trigger upon the sights arriving at the X-ring. You've got "Zen" in your corner, if every time your sights just arrive at the X and your barrel starts to rise with recoil - Magic I tell ya.:)

Applying steady even pressure as your sights are coming on the X-ring and then seeing the barrel in recoil when your sights just arrived at the X-ring, you know you didn't drop a point and you just keep on squeezing and letting up as your sights do their thing and if you've got your timing down - you'll shoot your average or a tad better.

Going from target to target - you still have to have timing relative for good trigger control to put rounds on target.

And as you know, strength/conditioning keeps that "wiggle area" smaller and that's a good thing.

[Blackwater]

All points well taken, and yes, I DID leave off DA revolver/auto shooting. I was mainly directing my thoughts at simply learning to shoot well, and those two guns, if one learns to shoot them well, will provide the basis for learning to shoot pretty well ANY handgun at least acceptably well.

As to DA shooting, I learned long ago that it's in its own class, and leaning to do it is a very specific skill set. It involves much more muscle control and consistency than SA trigger pulls do. But even so, learn the SA pulls well, and DA shooting will become a LOT easier and significantly faster to you, or a new shooter.

Sight alignment is the prime factor, but KEEPING those sights aligned through a good trigger squeeze, as Doug describes, is THE thing that determines where your bullet finally lands. Sight alignment is the beginning, but follow through and good squeeze without moving those sights is the final arbiter for every shot we make. And that .44 makes you learn a good, firm and consistent grip, and this shrinks one's groups more than most would ever give it credit for.

And 44man, I don't doubt you one whit, but you must have forearms like Popeye! Mine always slipped a bit, but a good firm grip minimized it, and consistency made it repeatable, so POI was not affected.

The handgun is the least powerful (generally) and hardest to learn to shoot accurately firearm we use. And I still think those two guns provide the key, if we'll learn to shoot them well, to learning to shoot ANY gun well, even the DA revolvers, and the DA autos. I've never been able to find a DA auto I liked except for one Colt that had the factory Seecamp (I believe?) DA conversion from the factory. They didn't make many of those, but the DA on that one is so smooth and light that it's amazing. One DOES have to have slightly longer than normal fingers to use it properly, though, and mine just do meet that criteria with no room to spare, at least on that gun.

One of the keys to getting women to shoot well is making sure the grips on their gun CAN provide the best reach to the trigger. A too long trigger reach will always be frustrating for women with small hands, like my DIL, to shoot well. Saddling them with a gun with too long a trigger reach is kind'a handicapping them out of the starting gate. That's my experience, at least.

[Groo]

Groo here
As much as I like my Single Actions, the correct pair are the 1911 and a Double action revolver.
The single action trigger pull on the revolver can equal the cocked doubleaction revolver.
The 1911 will teach you about any single action auto in trigger and grip.
Modern SA/DA auto and Striker fired autos try to copy a DA revolver or are moded to copy a 1911.
And a DA revolver will train for those few Da only auto's .

[shoot-n-lead]

Here is the basic core skill for mastering a handgun. It is very simple. You *MUST* be able to dry fire the handgun and hold the sights motionless, in perfect alignment as the hammer falls.

When you can do this with any handgun, you will always be a good shot. When the sights jump around when the hammer falls, that boolit went to wherever the sights were pointed. If you pull the front sight down and to the left when it falls, your groups will show this too. You must practice until you can "teach" your finger how to pull on the trigger so it maintains proper alignment of the front sight, and then you commit this to memory and employ it in live fire.

If your handgun is so stiff or gritty at the trigger that you simply cannot hold the sights in alignment, then it is time to address the trigger mechanism and or the springs so that you can get the mechanics of the gun to allow you to hold the sights in proper alignment.

This is only partially true..."flinch" enters the picture, regularly, with live fire...much harder to consistently overcome that tendency.

[44man]

5 hole does have a good observation and is what steel shooters do, more like staging the trigger.
It is just my seeing things even with my shooting and all my friends where they and sometimes me too, make the gun fire as the sights cross the bull. It is the hardest battle we have and I work hard to keep control. The Older I got, the harder it is to reduce the motion. I suppose I lost half my strength. Off hand with a scope is near impossible today so the red dot is better. I just see too much movement with a scope.
Now from bags I don't move at all and can hold on a gnat. But to apply trigger control to off hand is very hard. I shoot better if I shoot fast or on a moving target and is why a walking or running deer is easier. I have to lead and move the gun.
A stationary target means you need to hold more still. Gad I hate paper targets.
Long ago I would put my mark I in my left hand, throw a bottle with my right as hard and far as I could, grab the gun and break the bottle in the air.
The very hardest was at IHMSA at field pistol and my 10-1/2" SBH. The barrel would droop on me and take effort to get back up. It took time to get used to weight out there so I got good with the 45-70 BFR. After the real long and heavy guns, the little Marks shake like crazy. I used to head shoot squirrels at 50 yards off hand with my Mark II, opens, off hand, now it bangs into trees.
You will lose it, be assured. Age is EVIL!
Do what you want to do before becoming a decrepit old goat.
It still does not remove the most important thing of all. Your gun MUST be accurate or you can spend 50 years with no results. Nothing on earth will make you better if the gun sprays and prays.
I found no way to steer a boolit.

[Blackwater]

Amen to that age thing, 44! Add in diabetes, failing eyesight, and other factors, and it's a wonder I can hit a barn from the inside! But I'd still hat to be me with me shooting at me! Not nearly as satisfying as it used to be, but at least I think I can still defend myself capably, if ever more slowly over time. And now, all those fundamentals mean even more to me than they once did. Life has many stages, and I'm just glad to still be here to post! And shoot!

[W.R.Buchanan]

BW: I think you were pretty close in your original assessment. I would change the 1911 out for a Glock simply because the Glock is a simpler pistol to learn fundamentals on and then you can add the safety of the 1911 with no real set backs in training..

As far as the Revolver goes the SBH is the correct one. Many have said you need a DA gun in there too, however if it is a .44 I doubt many rounds will be fired DA. I know I almost never did with my M29. It was always fired SA. Even my 696 is fired SA because I can't hit anything in DA with it and the whole object of shooting a handgun is to hit stuff with it. it is nearly as fast for an aimed shot and if you are drawing the gun from a holster and have actually practiced it with a SA gun you will see it becomes second nature to cock the Hammer with your support thumb during the presentation. you can do that just as easily with a DA gun as you can with an SA gun.

One thing I learned in my recent Front Sight Handgun Class was to modify my Weaver stance to get my support elbow way over on my gut and end up with the gun very close to my face. This was accomplished by blading further away from the target to 45 degrees(formerly about 20). My whole upper arm is in contact with my left chest, and my firing arm is down at about 45 degrees so as to not get shot.

Note: how close the gun is to my face. What this does for you is it puts the sights directly in front of you and makes it very easy to focus on the Front Sight as well as making it very easy to cut the sights into alignment quicker. Note also that my head is totally erect and I am not "turtling," or scrunching down to the gun. The gun is brought up to your line of sight, not the other way around.

At the end of the class I was able to call all my shots and most were only an inch or so off the POA out to 10 yards. I could make head shots at 15 yards easily but they required a little more time to execute. By that time my trigger control was nearly perfect, but even so sometimes from shot to shot I'd have a little deviation usually on the first shot from the holster. Second shot was right on as I had time to make sure the grip was right and my finger was on the trigger in the right place. This was all happening in less than 2 seconds.

I posted these pics so that you could see that even at 67 (today!) you can learn new tricks. It is pretty obvious at least to me in these pictures that I am not some young whippersnapper. But you get the idea.

Randy

[44man]

Amen to that age thing, 44! Add in diabetes, failing eyesight, and other factors, and it's a wonder I can hit a barn from the inside! But I'd still hat to be me with me shooting at me! Not nearly as satisfying as it used to be, but at least I think I can still defend myself capably, if ever more slowly over time. And now, all those fundamentals mean even more to me than they once did. Life has many stages, and I'm just glad to still be here to post! And shoot!
I am glad to have you all but W.R. is still a whippersnapper! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[robg]

In our comps when we still had pistols etc ,the speed shooting comps I always shot my 686 double action no need to change grip to cock the hammer just concentrate on sigh picture and squeeze. After awhile I shot better da than sa .that revolver had a 4 lb as trigger and a 9 lb da trigger but it was butter smooth.

[Blackwater]

The S&W's lend themselves well to trigger cocking - that is, pulling almost all the way through, but hesitating near full cock, and checking the sights, making any minor adjustments, and then finishing pulling through and letting the shot go. It all can be done very quickly. But real "combat shooting," IMO, involves a straight pull through with NO hesitation at all, unless maybe at 50 or more yards. Then, trigger cocking it can provide some real improvement in results as to hits. I'm conditioned to S&W triggers, and am having a tough time getting really used to my Sec. Six, but what's life without a challenge. I love the toughness of the SS. Great pistols. The triggers just can't be made nearly as smooth and even as a S&W's. It ought to do what I want/need to do these days, though. I've just never been able to warm up to the GP-100's. Too heavy, IMO, and not as svelte in handling as a S&W 19/66 or even the SS. Wouldn't it be nice to have all the traits we want in one gun? Alas, that will likely never happen. Just makes us keep trying harder, I guess?

[44man]

Although I love the SA more then any other one, I love all revolvers and the 1911 was always a favorite but I never acquired one. As a kid I carved one from wood as perfect as could be done. I stained the grips with ox blood shoe polish. I often wonder what happened to it. I suppose it went the way of the tons of comics I had and the lionel train set. I could be rich!
But nothing grabbed me more then a Colt SAA, don't know if it was movies or what but the looks and feel can't be denied.
The best S&W I had was the 8-3/8" ribbed barrel model 27. I could hit the little frozen juice cans at 100 yards from prone. I put a Phantom scope on it and shot the 358156HP. You are not old unless you remember the Phantom. Another gun I should have kept.
My first .44 was the flat top in 1956, then over the years 5 or 6 model 29's.
I sold them off because of the grips. With my hands I shot better off hand then I could from Creedmore, POI change in how I picked the gun up. Still wonderful guns and custom grips might have helped. Never had much money. To buy guns meant selling guns. I even had the long 29 with the adjustable front sight that never worked. Good idea that failed. Had some TC sights that never worked either.
To start work as a mechanic at $1.75 and get another job at $2.25 was amazing but prices went up faster. $8,000 for a VW beetle and $15,000 for my first house. All we did was pay. You never get anyone to fix things so you learn to do it, Everything and anything and even TV's went bad fast so I learned them and fixed them, had TV's in my garage from all over Ohio. Gunsmith work was needed too and I learned them. No machines and just hand work.
Even later I wanted boolit molds but am still frugal. Made my mold vice from cast iron risers and had scrap aircraft aluminum. Make my own cherries.
Youngsters today want all given to them. Get off the bed and set up and cast concrete basement walls or lay a ton of block. Pour footers. Roof a house. Make furniture.
Complain and protest, come back in 80 years and tell what your life was worth.
I am sorry but shooters look for EASY too. You need to work.

[ole 5 hole group]

I don't know about that Weaver style, I gave it a good go but never liked it. I mainly squared away and developed my own style, which is now called the Isosceles Stance - There were a lot of us shooting that way while most others were shooting Weaver style. Today, the Isosceles is used by most in most pistol competitions, when shooting off-hand.

67 years young - just remember, it's only a number and just keep at it until you run out of numbers.;)

[W.R.Buchanan]

5 hole: please to understand that Weaver stance is for shooting at "conversational distances," with a Semi Auto Pistol. If I tried to shoot my SBH Bisley like that with full house loads I'd probably have a big groove in my forehead.

As the targets move away I use a looser Weaver stance which is essentially an Isosceles Stance with the left elbow dropped. The biggest problem with the Isosceles Stance is that encourages "Turtling" which is scrunching your head down between your shoulders to the gun instead of bringing the gun up to your eye level. The most exaggerated version of this I've seen is Randi Rogers (Evil Roy's Grand Daughter) and she has her head down to where her eye level is literally between her shoulders.

It is hard to argue that her style is counter productive simply because she is one of the most successful Female Shooters of all time, but she will probably have neck problems when she gets older.

I dry fire my Glocks a lot, and with my current style as shown I can hold the sights nearly perfectly still thru the Trigger Press 90% of the time and the other 10% isn't that far off. Part of this is attributable to the stabilizing effect that having your support arm firmly planted on your gut has on the hold.

I have Dawson sights on two of the Glocks and there is about half the Front Sight width of light on either side of the Front Sight when lined up. Any minor deviations in shot POI are as a result in minor variations in sight alignment as the shot breaks. However major deviations are more about mashing the trigger and it will take along time and a lot of both dry and wet firing to knock that down to almost nothing. I know I'm closer now than I have ever been and surprisingly what I am doing now is exactly what they were trying to teach me all along at Front Sight. This was my 7th pistol class!

I am a slow learner when it comes to muscle memory type things,,, but once I get it,,, I got it.

Anyway here's a pic of my grip on the SBH. Going to shoot it at the Short Range Silhouette shoot this Saturday with some of my New PC'd Keith Boolits. That gun has excellent Bowen and Weigand Sights on it and should be pretty accurate.

Randy

[ole 5 hole group]

Ya, I started out by rounding my shoulders and dropping my head also, but then came along the "speed" boys and they brought the sights up to eye level and of course, the rest of us just tagged along, as everything "they" did was an improvement and ole Jerry has it down to a science.

I jumped on the bandwagon relative to milling a 1911 slide for the micro red dot. That's the best improvement for the 1911 since hot home made bread with butter & honey - in my opinion anyway.;)

[W.R.Buchanan]

44man: We are seeing the zenith of pussification right now with the college kids protesting Trumps Election. They have been so programmed and mis-informed that they really don't even know what they are protesting. 90% are just there for the ride but think hey are accomplishing something. My statement about this, I got from Hildegard,,,,

"At this point, what difference does it make!"

These people when they fully mature, if you could ever actually call it that, will be virtually useless. It is like they were bred to be the next generation of welfare recipients, and educated to be morons. Idiocracy?.

I was listening to one speaking on Tucker Carlson's new show a few days ago and he was spewing all these big esoteric words in sentences that made no sense. This is a primary trait of people who are pushing an agenda that they don't really understand and I have seen it thruout my entire life.

My rule is that if you can't explain it to me in plain English, you don't understand it yourself. And that extends to those who "Invented it," but don't understand what they did or are doing.

My life Philosophy has been , "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It how well you do what you don't know how to do!"

In order to pull this off you must know something about a lot of subjects, and in doing so it becomes much easier to know when somebody else is FOS!

Randy

[44man]

I love the way you say that. The two woman down the road are Mensa class but can't handle a dollar. Live check to check and feed a pile of cats. They always call me for help and can't even buy new spindles for the mower. Been broken all year and it was only $38 for two spindles.
One worked for FEMA so she has to have a retirement plus SS. My feeble 12th grade education can't compute this.
But the saving grace is they let me hunt and are republicans.
Smart does not mean common sense. Can you imagine a kid going to school to learn liberal arts, Just what the hell is that junk? Better is to tell the punk to take the 80# bag of cement over there. Only 200 more when you come back or go home. You have only 200 bundles of shingles to get on the roof. OH, hurt your pinky, no pay today! Amazing how stupid we were and made the country but now "That string goes over that one or you will lose a shoe".

[dtknowles]

...........My rule is that if you can't explain it to me in plain English, you don't understand it yourself. And that extends to those who "Invented it," but don't understand what they did or are doing.

My life Philosophy has been , "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It how well you do what you don't know how to do!"

In order to pull this off you must know something about a lot of subjects, and in doing so it becomes much easier to know when somebody else is FOS!

Randy

If you are willing to accept an explanation of Particle Physics or Thermodynamics that does not include some things you don't consider "Plain English" you will remain ignorant even after you think you understand. For some subjects "Plain English" is not adequate for the task, actually words often are not sufficient and numbers and graphs are probably required. Try and explain the Carnot cycle in Plain English.


This "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It how well you do what you don't know how to do!" is idiocy. Being excellent at what you know is very important and not doing things you don't know is just as important. If you don't know plumbing don't do it and hire someone who does.

Tim

[garym1a2]

I would pick the .22 semi first, could be a Ruger Mark2 type, a Sr22, a P22 or many others. The 22 lr is great to start with. No need to get a hand cannon and get them scared of it. The second gun could be a 357 shooting 38s.

[Drm50]

I agree with a lot of OPs statements. If you can handle a SBH, you should do well with a D/A or
1911. The long hammer fall of SAs, makes a S&W feel like a target gun. I hunt and target shoot
I never fire my S&Ws on DA anyway, not even K22s. I never went in for "trigger cocking", after
a while thumb cocking becomes automatic and just as fast. I have never been involved in DA
type competitions, so my experience there is limited. I can tell you one thing going back to SA
is a lot harder that going to a S&W and firing it SA. It's not like riding a bicycle, it's like shooting
pool. You can get rusty.

[Green Frog]

OK, I've thought about it some more and would settle for two guns IF and only if I could get these two specific guns,equipped as follows;
1) A 70 Series Colt Gold Cup with a 22 conversion kit from Kart, Day, Marvel or Pachmayr. At least 2-3 magazines for each at a minimum.
2) A Model 66-1 or 686-1 S&W.
So I've "cheated" my way to three guns and the ability to do my "minimum requirements" for shooting. Of course ASAP there would soon be some sort of S&W or High Standard kit gun in 22 LR, and probably a Model 36 or 60 for CCW and... but here we go again! :roll:

Froggie

[Lloyd Smale]

add a bolt action 06,22lr rifle, a 12guage and your ready for anything. Not that id want to restrict myself to those five guns but if push came to shove you could hunt anything in the US with that in your safe. To be honest though if shtf id personaly rather have a glocks or m&p's. To me there a bit better if your just looking for a tool. But the super Blackhawk would have to be there too.
I know a lot of folks here are seeking to improve their shooting, and I salute every one of you. I figured it might help to note that there are 2 guns, that, if you learn to shoot them well, you'll be able to shoot ANY handgun well. Those 2 guns are the Super Blackhawk .44 mag. and the .45 ACP 1911 type pistols.

With the .44, you'll have to learn a good, consistent and FIRM (not tight, but firm) grip. With the .45, and its double shuffle recoil due to the slide's back and forth action, and its effect on recoil sensation, you'll learn "follow through," or the ability to keep the gun steady throughout the recoil cycle.

Learn to shoot these 2 guns, and you'll pretty well be able to pick up most ANY handgun, and shoot it well. This ain't no small thing, either! When one can pick up a gun and deliver accuracy with it, if it's got accuracy in it to get out of it, it breeds a confidence and satisfaction that continually practicing with milder, easier to shoot guns will NEVER be able to create within you.

With the .44, you'll need to learn a good, FIRM grip, which means firm enough to keep it under control in firing and through the recoil process, where that rounded back on the grip will allow the gun to "slip" in your hands as the barrel rises in recoil. That pressure you grip it with HAS to be very consistent, or it'll affect your POI, and you'll get vertical stringing.

The .45 teaches you to keep the gun stable in your hand as it goes through its unique recoil cycle, and the slide first pushes it back and then forth as it closes. Learn to shoot one of those, and your follow through will be greatly improved with all other handguns you may ever shoot.

Just throught I'd drop this little pearl in here for those who are struggling for accuracy. Don't be afraid of the .44. It won't hurt you, as long as you don't "limp wrist it," which CAN make autos malfunction because the gun doesn't have a firm "wall" to push against while the slide comes back against mainspring pressure. Limp wristing also is an anathema to shooting stronger recoiling SA's, too, because it doesn't keep the gun under much control, and it will inevitably be inconsistent as well, usually rising in grip tension as follow up shots are made, and thus, giving lots of vertical dispersion. Remember, recoil begins when the bullet first starts to move in the cylinder, continues as it passes the barrel/cylinder gap, and proceeds down the barrel. A firm grip makes it shoot lower. A light grip higher, simply because a light grip lets it recoil higher before the bullet leaves the barrel.

If you want to shoot better, and have friends with either or both of these guns, try them. You may be surprised at how a simple challenge like they provide CAN make you a MUCH better shot, and it usually doesn't take nearly as long as merely continuing to shoot the "wrong way." There's really no "wrong" way, but there ARE ways that tend to work best, and most consistently. And in almost all cases (not quite, but almost all), a firm grip will yield your very best results, and some people are shocked when they see what a difference it can make.

FWIW?

[Lead Fred]

I am not a handgun person, never have been, never will be. I do my magic with rifles.
I was raised on 1911s, first one was my ole man's, had them in the Army until they decided to go girlie caliber.
I do have two handguns.

45ACp Sig P220. SA/DA no safety, decocker. Finest 45 Ive ever shot. Store bought, reloaded, cast, it dont matter, it shoots them all. Did not care to have any other.

Then my buddy sold me a rusted shut 1969 Ruger Blackhawk in 357 mag. Its the fast to unload, and the slowest to reload. Cleaned it up, Duacoated it. I would have preferred 45 Colt.
It sits by the bed, loaded with 1 CCI snake shot, and 5 XTP 158s.
Fun plinker, and if Im ever in a show down in Dodge City, Im ready.
The standard load is a 160gr Keith hollow point from an original Ideal mold.
Its not made for anything serious, its good practice, and simple to load for.

So as far as Im concerned, there is only ONE, A P220

[MT Gianni]

I see the frustration in trying to master a Blackhawk/Super Bkwk and the factory grips. I have no idea of the size of the late Bill Rugers hands but the best thing I have ever done is toss all of his factory grips and get some that fit. I have 4 Ruger SA at the present time but If I needed three guns it would be a DA 44 Magnum, 1911 and a 32 H&R. I can cast for the 32 long/H&R for a lot less than I can shoot 22's. If a redhawk 45 weighed less, or if DW still made a 45 I would go there. If I were stuck with the CZ75 in either 9 or 40 I wouldn't fuss too much either.

[hp246]

I'll throw my .02 in here. If I cold only choose two handguns for all purposes and to learn how to shoot, I'd go first with a 1911 type. You can pick any high quality manufacturer. This gun would be in .45 ACP. My second choice would be a DA revolver, probably a K or L frame S & W. This gun would be a 38/.357 mag.

Breathing, sight alignment are skills easily transferred fromone system to the next. Of course as already mentioned numerous times above are the differences between a DA and SA trigger. But I have another reason. Grip/grip angle. The 1911 has what I consder to be a relatively straight grip that requries the wrist to be locked. The grip on the K frame (and most other revolvers) is basically a quarter of a circle. If you don't grip the revolver properly, you are most likel to miss what you are shooting at. If you learn to handle these two systems, you can handle about 90% of the hadgun systems out there.

[robertbank]

With the young folks into polymer guns, the Glock dominates, outside of hunting and competition shooting, the baby boomers maybe the last generation that embraces the 1911 to the extent most here do. It is heavy and expensive to make. Of course the demise of the 1911 has been predicted for the past 115 years and maybe predicted again 100 yeas from now but I rather doubt it.

The 1911 would not be my choice as a gun to learn how to shoot a handgun on and not n 45acp.

Any of the striker fired pistols in 9MM in my view would be a better choice and if limited to only one gun...a DA/SA pistol like a CZ, Beretta 92 or SIG 226. The Revolver would do equally well in 38spl if limited to one gun. Just a thought and an opinion worth what you paid for it.

Take Care

Bob

[2ndAmendmentNut]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161123/e1dfb103611c8e81e3100a3d862f6d8e.jpg

While I don't shoot this little best "well" I do practice with it more than anything else. I also find just about any other gun "easy" to shoot after practicing with my 340.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Multigunner]

Everyone should have at least one .22 LR handgun. A high quality .22 revolver will last several generations.
For a handloader the .38/357 revolvers are the most flexible and easiest to reload for. The power range can be tailored to your needs, target, small game, self defense, hunting up to deer sized (anything bigger deserves a clean death from a high velocity rifle) game, without worry of ammo sensitivity malfunctions so long as sane loads are used.
If I lived in Grizzly country I might go with a .44 Mag or larger, but we only have medium size Black Bear here.

I like autoloaders but if limiting myself to only two handguns I'd go with revolvers for the durability and ease of maintenance and replacement of worn parts if necessary. Most internal parts of revolvers subject to wear can be fabricated with only the most basic hand tools.

[paul h]

Assuming a handloader, the two I'd pick would be a 38sp/357 which will do everything a 22 lr will be used for as well as most of what it won't, and then either a Ruger Bisley convertible 45 acp / 45 colt or the Ruger Redhawk 45 acp / 45 colt.

The 45 convertables are much more flexible than a 44 mag and don't give up anything with top end loads. And you've got 45 acp for practice, small game and two legged predators.

[W.R.Buchanan]

If you are willing to accept an explanation of Particle Physics or Thermodynamics that does not include some things you don't consider "Plain English" you will remain ignorant even after you think you understand. For some subjects "Plain English" is not adequate for the task, actually words often are not sufficient and numbers and graphs are probably required. Try and explain the Carnot cycle in Plain English.

This "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It how well you do what you don't know how to do!" is idiocy. Being excellent at what you know is very important and not doing things you don't know is just as important. If you don't know plumbing don't do it and hire someone who does.

Tim

Tim: you missed the whole point of the phrase. The more things you know the easier it is to figure out things you don't know. One thing often leads to another, right? Diversity is the key to a successful life, not specialization. Nothing wrong with being Specialist, as long as you can do others things as well. It's the guy who can't do other things that I consider useless, as I probably won't have any use for what he is actually specialized in.

I have a friend who is actually a Brain Surgeon, However he also is a CA State Champ National Match Rifle Shooter and Reloads all his Ammo, and builds his own Target Rifles and Pistols, and has an old Porsche he races. He is highly intelligent and we have great conversations which usually go on for an hour or so about so many different thing you'd be amazed. I don't know everything about anything we talk about, but I usually know something about most of it and can ask intelligent questions to fill in the blanks.

If you are listening to someone who is using nothing but babble in every sentence and you can't understand anything he says. It doesn't mean you are stupid,,,, it means he is probably FOS!

The left would have you believe otherwise and that's why Hillary should have won, except more people figured out they were FOS,,, so they lost! Right?

Also I bet I can find someone who can explain the Carnot Cycle in Plain English. Oh, Here's one from Wikipedia.

The Carnot cycle is a theoretical thermodynamic cycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_cycle) proposed by Nicolas Léonard Sadi Carnot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_L%C3%A9onard_Sadi_Carnot) in 1824 and expanded upon by others in the 1830s and 1840s. It provides an upper limit on the efficiency that any classical thermodynamic engine can achieve during the conversion of heat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat) into work (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(physics)), or conversely, the efficiency of a refrigeration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigeration) system in creating a temperature difference (e.g. refrigeration) by the application of work to the system. It is not an actual thermodynamic cycle but is a theoretical construct.

From Wikipedia and all the words are plain English.

And since I went to the So Cal Edison Steam School in 1975 and learned all about basic Thermodynamics as it applies to a Steam Generation Plant I do know what the Carnot Cycle is, and the simple definition is . It defines the theoretical upper limit of efficiency of a heat engine. Or more simply BTU's generated, converts directly to Horsepower minus mechanical loss. Practical Result; The Average Oil Fired Steam Generation Plant is about 40% efficient.

I have very little use for a Thermodynamasist or Physicist who can't tie his own shoes. I have less use for Movie Stars or Musicians who pontificate about things they know very little about, and try to get their fans to follow, and try to create movements based on their BS. The fact that people even listen to them makes me puke. Oh Lena Dunham and Chelsea Handler are going to leave the US if Trump gets elected so you shouldn't vote for him! You'll notice neither one has left? Maybe they were FOS?

I would add that Einstein couldn't tie his shoes and wore slip-ons. But he could explain complicated things in terms that normal people could understand, to a depth only modified by their vocabularies. He had to do this because the majority of people he needed to talk to stay in business didn't understand what he was talking about otherwise, and he needed the funding.

I rest my case.

And on the original topic,,, just to return from the hijack I caused.

I do still agree with Blackwater that a .44 and a .45 are the two handguns everyone needs. Everything else is nice to have as an add on, but the .44's and .45's will do everything you really need to do very well.

Randy

[robertbank]

Interesting. Not sure your Hillary comment is correct. More people voted for her than Trump but he won the Electoral votes sufficient for him to win. :)

Do like you definition of idiocy though. Enjoy your Turkey.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

Interesting. Not sure your Hillary comment is correct. More people voted for her than Trump but he won the Electoral votes sufficient for him to win. :)

Do like Knowles definition of idiocy though. Enjoy your Turkey.

Take Care

Bob

[dtknowles]

Tim: you missed the whole point of the phrase.

Also I bet I can find someone who can explain the Carnot Cycle in Plain English. Oh, Here's one from Wikipedia.

The Carnot cycle is a theoretical thermodynamic cycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_cycle).

From Wikipedia and all the words are plain English.

He had to do this because the majority of people he needed to talk to stay in business didn't understand what he was talking about otherwise, and he needed the funding.

I rest my case.

And on the original topic,,, just to return from the hijack I caused.

I do still agree with Blackwater that a .44 and a .45 are the two handguns everyone needs. Everything else is nice to have as an add on, but the .44's and .45's will do everything you really need to do very well.

Randy

Randy, I did understand the point but I thought the phrase was not accurate in portraying the sentiments. I should not have called it idiocy.

Let me try my turn of phrase, "it is important to be able to execute your primary skill at a very high level but it is just as valuable and necessary to be able to perform many tasks at acceptable level.' I am sure this can be improved but I think it better expresses the idea.

We also had a bit of difference in understanding on what you consider Plain English. I would not have thought that you consider Thermodynamics and Theoretical as Plain English. What you quoted from Wikipedia (you left out the real explanation, many paragraphs) is not an explanation of the Carnot Cycle but a description of the Carnot Cycle, a proper explanation should have included Adiabatic, Entropy, Enthalpy, Isothermal, and Isentropic, which are even less Plain English.

It is likely that you have a better grasp of Thermodynamics than I do, I pick that as an example because it was one subject that makes my head spin.

I spent a lot of time pitching my research, I understand picking your vocabulary to suit your audience, Chief Engineers, Corp. VP's and Senators all need to hear it in a way they can understand or at least believe they understand.

On the issue of 44 and 45 cal. handguns, again we disagree. I have the S & W 44-40 in my avatar and a Ruger Old Army but I see no need for a big bore not that they don't have their uses but I would be fine with my .357 Mag. and Max. Dan Wesson's and no big bores. My Carry Gun is a 9mm.

Tim

[shoot-n-lead]

Just a little thread drift going on here...

[Blackwater]

Yep, shootin'. I originally was talking about LEARNING to shoot well, and that the .44 and .45's teach two very important things to the aspiring shootist. But now that I come to think of it, they may be excessively powerful for small game, and much louder than necessary (important to those of us, like me, who have tinnitus). But though I'd never really thought about us since I've always believed more gus are better than fewer, I guess one COULD well do just about anything with a SA .44 and a 1911 or other .45 auto. So I guess I've learned something here myself!

[44man]

The point is that we can't have enough guns and no matter what they are, they are all fun.
I have to agree that getting used to a few will make you better with all.
Once I started to work backwards I seen more success from friends. I started Don with my .500 JRH, BFR and he was doing very well to 100 yards, then I handed him my SBH to see smiles. He bought the Hunter and gave up his deer rifle.
Now I have shot some light .357 revolvers that were plain nasty even for me. Some guns just have a sharp recoil. A few friends have revolvers that after every shot, they swear and shake their hand.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Tim: really proud of that saying and I made it up about 20 years ago to promote diversity in personal knowledge. Every once in a while someone calls me out on it, usually because they read too much into it.

It is merely stating that "the more you know, the better off you are."

But that point can be carried directly into this conversation about Two Handguns.

The .44 Special and Magnum are arguably the most versatile handgun cartridges alive. They will do everything well from shooting rats to taking big game, and the man who gets shot with one probably is going to be dead soon.

I have 190gr. SWC's that I can load down to 600fps. They shoot high but you can adjust easily, and they are just right for shooting Rats at the dump.. Then at the other end is the Keith Boolit or larger versions like LBT's WFN's which have taken all the big stuff on the planet. That's a pretty diverse range.

The .45 ACP was simply designed to be a Man stopper and replace the .38's of the day. It worked really well for 100 years until now and everyone is going back to the 9MM? FBI Marines, Army, and Glock is going to sell a lot of guns, which I have no problem with, as I like Glocks.

But it seems like they forgot why they invented the .45 in the first place, cuz they could have had the 9mm 100 years ago.

The .45 ACP simply excels at it's primary purpose of knocking down bad guys.

Sometimes you don't understand all you know about a subject, or you forgot that you did,,,

and that's when "being able to do, what you don't know how to do,,," comes in handy.

Randy

[dtknowles]

Tim: really proud of that saying and I made it up about 20 years ago to promote diversity in personal knowledge. Every once in a while someone calls me out on it, usually because they read too much into it.

It is merely stating that "the more you know, the better off you are."

But that point can be carried directly into this conversation about Two Handguns.

The .44 Special and Magnum are arguably the most versatile handgun cartridges alive. They will do everything well from shooting rats to taking big game, and the man who gets shot with one probably is going to be dead soon.

I have 190gr. SWC's that I can load down to 600fps. They shoot high but you can adjust easily, and they are just right for shooting Rats at the dump.. Then at the other end is the Keith Boolit or larger versions like LBT's WFN's which have taken all the big stuff on the planet. That's a pretty diverse range.

The .45 ACP was simply designed to be a Man stopper and replace the .38's of the day. It worked really well for 100 years until now and everyone is going back to the 9MM? FBI Marines, Army, and Glock is going to sell a lot of guns, which I have no problem with, as I like Glocks.

But it seems like they forgot why they invented the .45 in the first place, cuz they could have had the 9mm 100 years ago.

The .45 ACP simply excels at it's primary purpose of knocking down bad guys.

Sometimes you don't understand all you know about a subject, or you forgot that you did,,,

and that's when "being able to do, what you don't know how to do,,," comes in handy.

Randy

Yep, nothing wrong with what you say.

Their is more to the story as well. Can't argue with the more you know the better off you are but then some people say ignorance is bliss. They could be blissfully dead.

Turns and roundabouts.

In the beginning it was 45's then we had revolvers in 36 for killing men and 44 for killing horses.

Why don't we all carry big bores, they are heavy, eat lots of lead and powder and are overkill for most jobs and hold less shots for a given size. If I lived in Alaska or some such place I might have decided on a different carry gun.

It has been an interesting thread. I value your contribution. I hope you take my contradiction in the good nature way it is intended.

I don't dispute that the more hardcore aficionados will gravitate to big bores but for those with a limited amount of practice I bet most shooters will be more effective with .357 or 9mm than with a .44 mag or 45 acp.

Personally I would rather carry around and shoot a K frame than a N frame or a Sig P290 than a 1911 even a commander and I don't want to be shooting 45 acp out of anything smaller than a commander.

Tim