A3-03 advice

[Fernando]

Want to start playing in cast matches and think I want a springfield.
Thinking on a really nice example or not so nice and have CMP redo it.
Which route and ballpark price I should look for?
What pitfalls to avoid?
Any other advice is appreciated.
Thanks

[runfiverun]

on a nice one your looking in the 700-750 range.
make sure the numbers and stamps match.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Lyman 311299 sized to .310 with 25 gr of 5744 or 16-18 gr of 2400. No need to look further.

Most of the 03A3's made by Remington have 2 groove barrels. Don't be scared of that, they still shoot cast very well.

Smith Corona guns have 4 groove barrels and are preferable.

Randy

[too many things]

springfields in the A3 are hard to find

[runfiverun]

now I don't remember if mine is a Winchester or a Remington.
but it actually likes the 311041 on top of 19grs of 2400, I'd bet it shoots that better than jacketed ammo.
I have never tried jacketed in it and I'm not really itching to find out either.

[dg31872]

Smith Corona's are usually in better shape than the others. S-C did not start building 03a3's until later in the war, so they saw less usage.
I think I remember this correctly.

[Scharfschuetze]

Bore condition and bedding will be paramount if you want to use it for a match rifle. The 03A3 makes for a fine cast boolit rifle. Bores will either be two groove or four groove depending on the date and location of the barrel's manufacture. I've had good luck with both forms of rifling when using either cast or jacketed bullets. My favorite cast boolit for them is the 311299 by Lyman or its clones by other manufacturers. Make sure the bore riding nose is supported by the lands for best accuracy. Barrels were made in wartime, so slug your barrel to find you best diameter to size to.

Most 1903A3s were rebuilt at some point during their military life, so don't get too hung up on barrel dates matching the serial number's date of manufacture. Bolts on the Remington produced rifles were usually stamped "R" under the stem of the bolt handle, but it's not uncommon to find other bolts. Smith & Coronas may show and "X" on the handle. As long as the headspace is good, you'll be good to go. Stocks were often replaced too, although most that I've seen were bedded up pretty well. Any of the three types of stocks (straight grip, pistol grip or scant grip) used for the issue rifles is correct due to arsenal rebuilding. Many WWII issue stocks will take both the 1903 action and barrel or the 1903A3 action and barrel. Only the hand guard of this genre of stocks is 03 or 03A3 specific.

In the US arsenals, rebuilding rifles was a mix and match affair with no thought given to maintaining manufacture's specific parts. Bolts and other parts were not numbered to the receiver as in the European arsenals and the Mauser or Enfield rifles. Rifles were rebuilt, gauged and then either placed back into use or into storage.

Only Remington and Smith Corona made the 1903A3 rifles to my knowledge. S&Cs are most often seen with barrels other than the 2 groove pattern although my Remington 1903A3 enjoys a four groove barrel by Remington.

[TNsailorman]

According to everything that I have read including Brophy's book on the 1903 and 1903A3, Remington was the only manufacturer of the 1903A3. There was a company that used spare parts and an after market cast receiver to make up some 1903's and 1903A3's but the workmanship was very shoddy. The only one I ever saw was at the rifle range one day when some guy showed up with one and he was tickled pink because of his "new" 1903. That was until he pulled it out of the box and tried to load it. The bolt would hit the receiver ring when he tried to chamber a round. The only way it would go home was to pull up on the handle while pushing the bolt forward. Several guys looked it over and advised him to send it back for a refund of his money. I never saw him again so I don't know whether he did or not but he did take the advice of the group and did not fire it. I can't remember the name of the company right now but the only legitimate makers the 1903A3's were Remington, Smith-Corona and I believe maybe Rock Island Arsenal(not real sure about RIA though. Springfield never made the 1903A3, only the 1903 and Winchester never made either of them. Winchester did make 1917's,M1 Garands and M1 Carbines. The 1903A3 came about when Remington took over production of the 1903 and requested changes in order to speed up production and reduce costs; which the government approved and thus it became the 1903--A3 variation. I have a 1903A3 that shoots as well as you could expect any military rifle to shoot and it has a 2 groove barrel. Jphnson Automatic made 2 groove barrels but I think nearly all of them were used to rebuild 1917 Enfields. I had one of those 2 groove JA barreled 1917 and it shot great. I have found the 2 groove barrel likes bullets heavier than 150 grains although it does well with the 150, just not as accurate as the 175 to 180 grainers. I have not shot lead in my 1903A3 much but I would lean toward a heavy bullet there also. The lead 165 grain boolits that I did try would only give me groups around 2 1/2" consistently, while jacketed 175's will go 1 inch or less with RL19 and IMR4350. My rifle is glass bedded and has a free floated barrel, even to top handguard. My experience anyway, james

[bob208]

Remington made 03's on the old rock island tooling. so rock island did not make any 03 a3. Remington streamlined the 03 and that became the a3. s.c. got a contract to make the a3 also. Remington made to 03 also. all my Remington a3's have 4 grove barrels. my a4 has a two grove barrel it shoots as good as any other.

[Fernando]

This is what I'm after - keep it coming

[Dutchman]

Smith-Corona 03A3 can be found with SIX groove rifling.

Remington owned S-C.

The 1903A3 was a slam-bang get-er-done rifle. Not pretty. Not finely finished. Their value today rests solely on being USGI WW2 collectibles. They are, technically, not "Springfield" rifles. http://media.fotki.com/1_p,sfgkbqgkbtdsrqgxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/gqrqtgkskxrstkrrqkk/4/28344/9865882/TM912701903Springfield-vi.jpg

My 1918 double heat-treat 1903 Springfield in a C-stock. Ex-Greek rifle from CMP.
http://media.fotki.com/1_p,sfgkkgfrfdsgqsfxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/kkdbqktbxfkggwtgbf/4/28344/9865882/c1-vi.jpg

Remington 1903 in a scant stock as received from CMP. Ex-Greek rifle from CMP.
http://media.fotki.com/1_p,sfgkkgdttdskktdxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/ttsrkfrwkxsdswtrwfw/4/28344/9865882/03a-vi.jpg

U.S. Model 1905 Bayonet made 1918 rebuilt for WW2 service. Also fits M1 Garand.
http://media.fotki.com/1_p,dtsdqbbbqgrtgwxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/grsdgkwqqxgssbsrbgk/2/28344/2974527/bb12-vi.jpg

[Hardcast416taylor]

If I remember correctly Sarco or some other parts for sale company made up both the 03 and A3 rifles for sale back in the 1980`s from surplus parts on hand. My brother bought 1 of each model, never shot them before he died. I had to have a chamber reamer used to remove the old hardend cosmoline in the chamber as it wouldn`t allow a cartridge to fully chamber. Both rifles now shoot very nicely miltary ball 150 gr. `J` loads.Robert

[35 Whelen]

I have a couple of 03A3's and am pleased with both of them. The first someone took off the rear sight and dropped it in a "sporter" stock, mounted a Lyman 48S receiver sight and a Lyman 17A XNA sight and put a Timney trigger in it. It doesn't look like much but good grief it shoots cast like the proverbial house afire.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Target%201903A3/03A3afterbedding.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Target%201903A3/03A3afterbedding.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Target%201903A3/03A3afterbedding-1.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Target%201903A3/03A3afterbedding-1.jpg.html) Someone needed the 48S worse than I so I sold it, put the rifle in the safe and sort of forgot about. Then about a month ago I decided I'd shoot it a little and maybe list it to sell. Out of my junk drawer I was able to piece together a Williams 5-D to mount on the rifle. Found some years-old cast loads and hied off to the bench to sight her in.

100 yds.- http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Target%201903A3/03A3%20100%20yds.%20labeled_zps7mzvl0t6.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Target%201903A3/03A3%20100%20yds.%20labeled_zps7mzvl0t6.jpg.html)

Not too bad, but I much more enjoy 200 yds., so made the sight adjustment and swung over to my 200 yd. gong and fired two groups:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Target%201903A3/200%20yds%20labeled_zpsdlo61go2.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Target%201903A3/200%20yds%20labeled_zpsdlo61go2.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Target%201903A3/200%20yd%20group-1_zpsskd2ameu.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Target%201903A3/200%20yd%20group-1_zpsskd2ameu.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Target%201903A3/200%20yd%20group-2_zpsxeqgmyra.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Target%201903A3/200%20yd%20group-2_zpsxeqgmyra.jpg.html)

The other is a....Smith-Corona, I believe (too lazy to take it out of the safe). It had been a drill rifle and a gentleman in Montana rescued and installed a NOS 12-'43 barrel on it and restored it to its original glory. I LOVE this rifle.

URL="http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/03A3/P1010007descr-1.jpg.html"]http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/03A3/P1010007descr-1.jpg[/URL]

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/03A3/314299RedDot.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/03A3/314299RedDot.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/03A3/31129110shot.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/03A3/31129110shot.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/03A3/311291Targetmod.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/03A3/311291Targetmod.jpg.html)


So there's a couple of success stories for you. Hope they encourage you and hope you find what you want!

[RU shooter]

Whichever route you choose you will do well if the barrel is good those springfields seem to all shoot cast very well . I sold mine off last year as my eyes just aren't up to match shooting anymore but when they still was I humbled quite a few younger men shooting ar15's at our reduced course CMP/Highpower matches shooting cast bullets out to 200 yds . Another possibility for you to consider is find a National Ord gun generally way way cheaper than an original and get a nice C stock set for it . That's what mine was barrel was a brand new feb 44 Remington mfg . Only thing that isn't usgi is the receiver . Still shot great for me .

Tim

[30calflash]

From reading Col. Brophy's book, High Standard was approached on building A3's but could not due to large Gov't contracts already in the works. They did agree to make barrels though, if another company could build the rifles.

S-C got the contract and built about 1/4th the number Remington made. The early ones had 6 groove rifling as mentioned, later ones had 4 groove. IIRC it was sometime in mid 1943 that you see the date change on the barrel with respect to the rifling change.

Unless really worn or mis treated I've not heard of an A3 that will not shoot. The first one I acquired had a dark bore but strong rifling in the barrel. I purchased a new in cosmo 2 groove and planned to swap it out. It shot so well with the dark bore I couldn't bring myself to do it. Like 2.5 MOA at 100 yds.

[casac47]

Bought my 03A3 on the internet. It's a sporter conversion that has been drilled for a scope. The thing looks like ****, has a shortened barrel and shoots 1" groups. Think I'll just leave it the way it is !

[pietro]

According to everything that I have read including Brophy's book on the 1903 and 1903A3, Remington was the only manufacturer of the 1903A3.




FWIW, The Federal armories at Springfield (SA) and Rock Island (RIA) were the only manufacturers of the model 1903 rifle prior to WW2.

Winchester never made any 1903 or 1903-A3 rifles, as they were contracted to make Enfield pattern Model 1914 (P-14/.303 Brit) & Model 1917 (P-17/.30-06) rifles for WWI.

Remington began by making 1903's for the UA Gov't at the beginning of WWII before switching over to the updated 1903A3 economy (of manufacturing) model.

US Gov't contractors Remington and Smith Corona were the only manufacturers of the model 1903A3 during WWII.

A Model 1903 or Model 1903-A3 made by any other manufacturer is a commercial, post war replica. (Santa Barbara, Golden State,etc, etc)

And also FWIW, the "Springfield Armory", that you see advertising various US and foreign-made rifles and pistols in gun magazines today, is a fairly recent commercial company based in Illinois, and has absolutely no connection whatsoever to the actual Federal armory at Springfield, Massachusetts - which served as our nation's primary source of infantry rifles from 1794 to 1968 and is now a designated National Historic Site.


.

[Char-Gar]

A good 1903A3 either Remington or S-C in military or sporter dress will make you a fine cast bullet rifle. I have one of each. My Remington is a WWII Ogden Arsenal rebuild with a 4 groove barrel and my S-C has been built into an NRA Sporter clone. They are both 1.25 MOA cast bullet rifles on a good day and a 1.75 MOA rifles on any day. Well, no sleep and to much coffee will boost that up to 2 MOA.

[leadman]

I have 2 1903a3 CMP Greek returns. one a 2 groove Remington, the other a 4 groove Smith Corona. I also have a SC that was a sporterized junker when I bought it for about $100. Got it in shooting condition with the original barrel and it groups around 1/2" to 3/4" at 100 yards with cast.
I had a Remington 1903 and it shot well but I had issues seeing the barrel mounted rear sight so sold it.
The first 3 rounds our of the CMP Remington were the hunting loads for my Savage 110 30-06. The holes were all touching in the X. This without me touching the sights, so whoever sighted this before me did a great job. I did use it a couple of the 200 yard matches with cast and shot quite a few 10s and Xs. Then there were the 8s and 9s. LOL

[samari46]

National Ordnance used cast receivers for their A3's. I seem to remember reading some posts on gunboards.com about a couple that disasssembled themselves. So I would seriously get either a Remington or Smith Corona to avoid such problems with suspect after market receivers. Aimsurplus.com had A3 actions for sale but have not been on that site in awhile. Sarco does advertise either actions or complete rifles. Frank

[fa38]

Want to start playing in cast matches and think I want a springfield.
Thinking on a really nice example or not so nice and have CMP redo it.
Which route and ballpark price I should look for?
What pitfalls to avoid?
Any other advice is appreciated.
Thanks
If you are considering Cast Bullet Assoc. Military matches you need to get an original military barrel. The Criterion barrels are not allowed in those matches but are fine for any other cast bullet matches.

I don’t know if the CMP has any original barrels for sale but they do sell the Criterions.

[Fernando]

That's the plan - still looking - I'm sure something will fall into my lap.

[Char-Gar]

That's the plan - still looking - I'm sure something will fall into my lap.

There was a time, not that long ago, when new in the grease 03A3 barrels could be bought for a few dollars. The last one I bought was about 15 years ago and cost me $35.00. They are still around, if you look long enough, but will cost you many times that.

[Scharfschuetze]

There was a time, not that long ago, when new in the grease 03A3 barrels could be bought for a few dollars. The last one I bought was about 15 years ago and cost me $35.00. They are still around, if you look long enough, but will cost you many times that.

I squirreled away a few of those also. I built an accurate 1903 Match/cast boolit rifle with one of them. The action (already tapped for a Lyman-so now collector value) and bolt were free, so I rebarreled it, dropped it into a 1903A1 stock with an 03A3 handguard and have been enjoying it since.

Sadly, I haven't seen those once common barrels at any gun show for some time now.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Here's a pic of Charles' 03A3 NRA Sporter Clone. It is one of the nicest looking rifles of this particular type I have seen. I used it at SHOT Last year to try to get Boyd's to make a run of NRA Sporter Stocks, but they kept putting me off and eventually flaked out, and gave me stupid excuses, so I am still looking for someone who will cut a decent stock for me.

The bummer is that Boyd's inletting is perfect and requires virtually no fitting at all.

I tried a Macon Gunstocks NRA Sporter Stock and it was a complete $200 *** !!! not even 50% cut, and after I returned it they tried to clip me for a $50 restocking fee.. Do yourself a favor and avoid this outfit !!!!

Hopefully someday I will find someone who can make me a stock as I already have the correct Barrel Band and Butt Plate that I need to do something with.

Randy

[WILCO]

Want to start playing in cast matches.....

Sanctioned event?

[Fernando]

Sanctioned event?

I think they are - but if not I'd still like to cover that base if I ever learn what I'm doing

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The only one I've shot was a 1903 with the old heat treatment, which had seen enough meticulous and unadventurous handloading for me to trust it. But if those matches require the original sights, the 1903A3 has an advantage which is worthwhile for anybody, and the older you are, the more worthwhile it gets.

I know the requirement for alloying elements in the steel for both actions and barrels was relaxed in wartime conditions, I think not immediately and possibly only for Smith-Corona. Not many soldiers fire thousands of shots in a war. It would be useful if there was some way of telling those apart. But I don't believe it is a question of any drastic deficiency.

[Fernando]

Well I jumped on one and a bbl date of 10-43
Looked OK from what I've seen the last 6 months
Probably over paid a little but missed on a few and got sick of waiting.
It's a 2 groove and except for some wood dings looks good to me.
So which is better 2 or 4 groove?? JUST KIDDING already searched that feud.
So the journey begins

[Scharfschuetze]

Congrats Fernando. I think that you'll have a great time with the old warhorse.

[Fernando]

Well all cleaned up and bore is mirror bright and the button marks are still visible
at the muzzle - I've looked down enough bores to know this is real low milage.
Wish I had one of those hand dandy armorer gauges for muzzle and throat.
Now it's time to load up some test rounds and stretch her legs
Metal all looks like it wash't carried much if at all - maybe CMP put all new guts in
but they all have R's on them.
Stock is a little rough but thinking on having a new C stock fitted - but we'll wring
it out first and see how I like the straight grip first.
I'm happy happy and the wife even said it was pretty neat (that's really weird):confused: