Spanish Copy of a Top Break Smith with Britsh Proof

[dtknowles]

I was AR shopping at the gun show today but of course I check out all the guns. One table had a Spanish copy of a large frame top break S&W with British Proof marks and the owner said it was a WWI relic in .455 Webley. It was tie wrapped and since I was not going to even make an offer I did not ask them to cut the tie and let me check it out. They wanted $600. Seemed fair if the bore was fair. In years past I would have made an offer, it was my kind of toy.

Tim

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You may have seen a Garate, Anitua No.1 Mk.1 revolver ordered by the British for WW I use in 1915, and remaining in service until 1921. They were a 6 shot hinged top revolver in .455, fully proofed, and considered of high quality.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, there were some dreadful revolvers made in Spain, worse than Belgian, but the British contract revolvers were among the best. I'd want to be sure that it really was, though. General Hatcher describes much of the Spanish production just after the First World War (the latest a break-open is likely to be) a of extremely bad quality, and often meant to deceive by misleading inscriptions, crests etc. Writing in the 1930s he describes the products of the best factories as up to a high standard, but those were revolvers with swing-out cylinders. British proofmarks are reliable as to the gun when made, but not for the rate at which it will wear or get out of timing afterwards, and I would want a really close look to be sure they aren't just marks which look like proofmarks.

I don't have a late S&W top-break in front of me, but looking at my No3 single-action in .44 Russian, the lockup is quite a bit weaker than the Webley. Unless they changed it, the topstrap connection is by the latch and its rather small pivot pin, while in the Webley there are mating surfaces on topstrap and frame. I also think you ought to be able to do better than $600 for a good Spaniish revolver.

[dtknowles]

Yes, there were some dreadful revolvers made in Spain, worse than Belgian, but the British contract revolvers were among the best. I'd want to be sure that it really was, though. General Hatcher describes much of the Spanish production just after the First World War (the latest a break-open is likely to be) a of extremely bad quality, and often meant to deceive by misleading inscriptions, crests etc. Writing in the 1930s he describes the products of the best factories as up to a high standard, but those were revolvers with swing-out cylinders. British proofmarks are reliable as to the gun when made, but not for the rate at which it will wear or get out of timing afterwards, and I would want a really close look to be sure they aren't just marks which look like proofmarks.

I don't have a late S&W top-break in front of me, but looking at my No3 single-action in .44 Russian, the lockup is quite a bit weaker than the Webley. Unless they changed it, the topstrap connection is by the latch and its rather small pivot pin, while in the Webley there are mating surfaces on topstrap and frame. I also think you ought to be able to do better than $600 for a good Spaniish revolver.

I have a #3 New Frontier double action S&W in 44-40, the action is adequate for cartridges of the era. I doubt I would have paid $600 if I started to negotiate. See my avatar.

Tim

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, this from "Pistols of the World" by Ian V. Hogg and John Weeks, in Great Britain by Arms and Armour Press and in the United States by Presidio Press, 1978--the source of my knowledge on the subject:

Garate, Anitua. "Under their own name, the company produced only two pistols. The first is of considerable interest to students of military weapons since it became an official "British Army revolver under the title "Pistol OP (Old Pattern) No.1 Mk. 1*This was approved "to guide supply as may be ordered" on 8 November 1915, and the description in the official announcement was "The grip is small with projecting head on top and fitted with short, horn stock sides. The components are non-interchangeable. Barrel length five inches, weight 1 1/2 lbs. rifled with 6 grooves, right handed". It was a six-shot double action, in .455 in. caliber. It was declared obsolete for British service on 15 November 1921. So far as can be determined, it was never offered commercially." ---- "The quality of their products appears to have varied according to the intended market; some of the work is poor, but other designs are extremely well made." ---- "They were one of the only two Spanish makers to receive a pistol contract from the British Army during the first world War, which in itself, must be looked upon as a testimonial to their quality. The company, like so many others, went out of business during the Civil War, and was not permitted to return to the pistol field."

What was the other one? Trocaola: "The quality of these arms varies. The pre-1914 pistols appear to be well made and of sound material, and this is reinforced by their sharing, with Garate Aniuta, a British Army contract to supply revolvers 1915.These entered British service as "Pistol OP with 5 inch barrel No. 2 Mk 1* on 8 November 1915. A specimen examined has the inscription 'Fa de Trocaola Aranzabal Eibar' on the frame and is, of course, chambered for the 455 British cartridge. It was declared obsolete for military service in 1921."

Both of these revolvers did have the S&W-type frame lock, as shown by photos in the book.

I seem to recall that Holt Bodinson did a write up on the Garate in one of the gun magaizes several years ago, complete with color photos and a test firing, and I'm sure I saved it....somewhere......I do recall that he was favorably impressed.

This is one of those fascinating niches of arms collecting. The British were short enough on revolvers that they were willing to purchase them abroad, and like the French turned to Spain as a source. But, unlike the French, were a bit more selective, limiting their acceptance to only two makers; whereas, the French obtained the "Ruby" pistol from many manufacturers and they were of widely variance in quality.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have a #3 New Frontier double action S&W in 44-40, the action is adequate for cartridges of the era.

So it is, but it was a black powder era, and modern reproductions are mostly investment castings in stronger steels. I'd suspect that many of the early Spanish clones of this model would loosen up even with black powder.

[Bob in Revelstoke]

I have a Spanish made clone of a S&W 3rd model in .455 cal, It was made by Orbea Hermanos in Eibar Spain. It has British proof marks and appears to be well made.
It came with a leather military style holster with brass cleaning rod. I reload for it using Unique powder and I have a hollow base RCBS mould in .455 cal and use soft lead bullets. The sights are miniscule but at close range are adequate.

[dtknowles]

So it is, but it was a black powder era, and modern reproductions are mostly investment castings in stronger steels. I'd suspect that many of the early Spanish clones of this model would loosen up even with black powder.

Mine is not a reproduction, it was made over one hundred years ago. Why do you think they would loosen up even with black powder?

Tim