The big four!

[Bad Ass Wallace]

You have to love those old black powder rifles from last century.

My collection is still growing but 3 of these are originals with near mint barrels. The same 566gn minne boolit is fired from both 58's but I must source a smaller boolit for the 577/450 to reduce the awesome recoil of a 520gn in a 6.5lb carbine. Both rifles have bores of 0.461 and I use a 0.462 mould.

Top to bottom

1861 58cal Musketoon (repro by Parker Hale)
1868 577 Snider (J.C. Lord sporting rifle)
1878 577/450 Alex Henry (left handed) (issued to mounted police)
1883 577/450 Martini Henry Artillary carbine

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Big_4_B.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Big_4_C.jpg

[Buckshot]

...............Some pretty nice old rifles (even tho' the P-H is technicaly a repro). I forget the date of submission for the AH, but interestingly, from Musket to Martini there's what, only 10 years difference in use? That is if we pretend your Snider sporter were a military model.

http://www.fototime.com/7CD7CAD02940F78/standard.jpg

I have 4 old militaries, which were all contemporaneous (if we allow a bit of slack in details) and vastly different. From the top:

1884 Trapdoor 45-70
1871 Mauser .43 Mauser
1887 MkIV Martini Enfield 577-450
1879 Argentine contract Remington RB .43 Spanish (takes the bayonet above it).

...............Buckshot

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Buckshot,

What loads do you put through your trapdoor. I just bought an original one, an 1873 Model (1884 just on the front of the receiver). They say they're a bit weaker action than my Sharps but any secret boolit to make them perform or will any reasonable BP load work?

Thanks

[Boz330]

BAW,
Slug the bore, you will probably need a .462 slug to get it to fit. It should shoot anything from 405 up pretty well. The original was a 500gr boolit and they dropped down to a 405gr and 55gr of black for the carbine. IIRC twist is 22. The action is definately not up to a Sharps but I don't think you can go wrong with a BP load up to 70gr. It won't kick as hard as that 577-450 carbine thats for sure. Mine is unpleasant even with a 385gr slug. If I drop the load down and use kapok as a filler it doesn't shoot worth a darn, so it is accuracy and pain or no accuracy and pleasant.

Bob

[Doc Highwall]

Actually the original load for the 45-70 was with a 405gr HB bullet with 70grs of powder. the Govt found that the 405gr plain base did not provide enough inertia to seal the bore so they used a hollow base to help seal the bore. The Martini Henry Rifle in 577-450 with a 33.85" barrel gave 1253fps with 85grs of loose powder and a 480gr bullet. The 45-70 Springfield with a 32.6" barrel and 70grs of compressed powder gave 1360fps with a 405gr bullet, and 1220fps with a 500gr bullet. The Martini with a 21.25" barrel 577-420 70grs powder had a velocity of 1140fps and the 45-70-405 with a22" barrel and 55grs of powder had a velocity of 1130fps. Remember the Springfield first came out with only the rifle with a 32.6" barrel, then they came out with the Carbine with a 22" barrel. When they found the recoil to much in the carbine that is when they reduced the 70gr powder charge to 55grs using fillers. The 500gr bullet did not came out till later an is known as the M1881 BULLET, the loaded cartridge was called M 82. The biggest difference between the Martini and the Springfield is the 45-70 had the powder compressed. I love shooting the 45-70, it is the first cartridge the I ever hand loaded for and the first cast bullets that I cast for also back around 1972 in a 1884 that was made in 1890. The BEST BOOK on the TD Springfield and LOADS for it is. (LOADING CARTRIDGES FOR THE ORIGINAL .45-70 SPRINGFIELD RIFLE AND CARBINE) BY J. S. and Pat Wolf. This is where I got the above information. I hope this helps. Doc Highwall.

[218bee]

Very cool, I really like that Snider!!!

[Bigjohn]

BAW,
I have two molds here which may suit the task; one is a H. T. BUGG 420gr RNHBPP design for paper patching. It could be lightened a little but not much.

I also have a CBE 420gr RFN (.462") mold.

Both were cut for the MH 577/.450 rifle/carbines.

I once had an original casing from a 577/450 which had a cardboard sleeve inside of it to reduce the powder charge. If I am correct I recall that this is the method 'BOXER' used to reduce the charges for the carbines. From "The BOXER Cartridge in the British Service".

John.

[Buckshot]

Buckshot,

What loads do you put through your trapdoor. I just bought an original one, an 1873 Model (1884 just on the front of the receiver). They say they're a bit weaker action than my Sharps but any secret boolit to make them perform or will any reasonable BP load work?

Thanks

BAW, sorry for the tardy response. The TD action IS weaker in comparison to the Sharps (or several others for that matter). Yet when it was designed and put into production there was only ONE type of propellant. That was BP. It was supposed to safely fire the military 50-70, and then the 45-70 with it's 405gr slug. They then went to the 45-70-500 and it handled that without issue.

During the long range tests of 1879 at Sandy Hook, NJ it also handled the 45-85-500 without a whimper. I'd say it should handle most any BP load you'd care to put up in a 45-70 case. I cannot offer any help as I've never tried loading BPC ammo for mine.

...............Buckshot

[ResearchPress]

1878 577/450 Alex Henry (left handed) (issued to mounted police)


Are you sure that rifle is 'left handed'? I had understood that the hammer was located on the left, to facilitate loading the rifle right handed, without interference from the hammer.

David

[martinibelgian]

I can only confirm what David said - the hammer was put on the 'other' side to make loading easier, all military AH's are like this. Only the sporters have the hammer on the 'right', traditional side.

[irish66]

BAW.
the first bp rifle I ever owned was a trap door 1873 that had been cut.
raping bullet molds makes a great 500 gr govt mold and it will cast to .463
behind this monster I used to shoot 65 grs goex 2fg, with a fed 215 primer, with a card wad between the powder and bullet.
i do not remember how much I used to compress it, but in my rifle and a full length 1884 it would shoot under one inch at 100 yards.
i currently have an 1878 that is a friends and he wants to m,ake it go away!
irish

[hydraulic]

Doc Highwall: J.S. Wolfe, when he was still living, used to argue with me about the hollow based 405 gr. bullet. There is such a shallow "hollow" in the old original bullets that I felt they were formed accidently as a result of swaging. I used to pick up 405 and 500 gr. bullets on the old firing range at Fort Niobrara in northern Nebraska, and melt them down for fish sinkers. I still feel that if the bullet needed a hollow base for a 70 grain charge, then surely it would need more than that for a 55 grain charge. It is interesting to note that the 500 grain bullets I found didn't have that shallow "hollow", so maybe he had a point. Anyway, he had Lee make a hollow based 405 mould and sold a lot of them, though they don't look anything like the originals. I sold a number of trapdoors to Spence, the only name I ever heard anyone call him, back in the good old days, and I credit the sale of his book to raising the price of those $200 trapdoors to $700. You mentioned that your 1884 trapdoor was made in 1890. It should have been a model 1888 ramrod bayonet if made in that year. The 1888 was marked 1884 on the breech.

[hydraulic]

Irish 66. I think you may be mistaken about the model number of your trapdoor. The stamp that was used on the 1873 often looks like 1878 because the ends of the 3 hook around till almost touching. There is a Model 73 in the Cody Wyoming Buffalo Bill Historical Center that has a sign identifying as a Model 1878. Same situation. You sure can shoot better than I can. Under an inch at 100 yds with a trapdoor? You ought to go out to Forsyth, Montana, and show those Sharps shooters what a real rifle can do.