Best load of powder

[fishleclair]

I have been shooting some round ball and Hornady .45cal (240gr) sabots outta my Pedresoli .50 cal Muzz. My question is do I keep upping my load of powder to find best results for grouping? I seem to be kinda all over (6-18" group) I was running 70 gr of FFG. What's your suggestions. I know that the round ball on the sabots will preform different of each other.

[mooman76]

What is the twist rates and why are you bothering with sabot? Also where did you start grain powder wise? You could try more but if you are already at 70gr with a 45, and shooting that bad, going up more will likely not get you to good groups.

[johnson1942]

you have to give us details. 50 cal but what is the twist rate as stated above. then we can give you info.

[rodwha]

I've considered trying my 0.457" balls in my .50 cal by double patching. This would be for small game until I get something more suited. These would be light loads. What are your intentions?

[Lead Fred]

do I keep upping my load of powder to find best results for grouping?

Get a paper & crayon, there will be a quiz at the end.

I only shoot patched round ball out of my home made 45 cal flintlock. What I do know is there is only so much powder you can use. My load is standard and close, 55gr 3f (1650fps), max load is 74.5gr 3f (2030fps). Anything more is wasted.
How do I know this?
I used the Davenport formula.
It does not tell you your most accurate group is, but it will tell you the point where you are wasting powder.
Once you know this, you can work backwards via 1/2 grain charges until your group is tightest. Mine is 55gr 3f.

Here is the formula, Im cutting and pasting it from an email I got last decade.

Math is not my long suite. That is why I became a lawyer. But, the Davenport formula is worked by using some of that darn math they tried to teach me back in HS.

The Cubic area of the bore would be done this way:

Take the bore diameter( or groove diameter and then calculate both cubic areas. Then subtract the area created by the lands, to get the actual true Cubic area of a rifled barrel. Generally, the difference is measured in a couple of grains, and is not worth the extra brain power used.) and divide it by 2 to get the Radius of the bore. (r)

Area of a circle is determined by the formula A= PiR Squared. Pi= 3.1416. So, Multiply the Radius by itself(to square it) and then multiply that number by Pi to find the area of the circle the diameter of the Bore of your gun.

Now Multiply that number( area) times the 11.5 to get the amount of powder in one inch of your bore. Multiply that number by the length of your barrel to get the total capacity for your whole barrel.


Example:

( .50 cal. divided by 2 = .25; times .25 = .0625; times 3.1416= .19635; times 11.5 =2.2580; times 28(barrel length)=63.22 grains of powder.)

If you want to know the cubic space inside one inch of a .50 caliber rifle, you can use .50 as the diameter, or measure the actual land to land dimension, and then the groove diameter, and then the groove depth, to work out EXACT the cubic area of that particular bore.

Here is how to calculate the Davenport Formula:


.50 divided by 2 = .25
.25 x .25 = .0625
.0625 times Pi( 3.1416)= 0.19635
.19635 x 11.5 = 2.2580

2.2580 x 28 inches( barrel length)= 63.22 grains of powder.
___________________


Assume you are shooting a 28 inch .50 caliber rifle barrel. The cubic area of that bore will be 28 x .19635 = 5.4978 cubic inches.

Now, because you do have grooves in that barrel, you can refine that a bit more.

Assume that the actual groove diameter of your gun is .501" ( my .50 caliber rifle's actual bore diameter)

Run the Davenport formula and you get:

.501 divided by 2 = .2505
.2505 x .2505 = .0627502
.0627502 x 3.1416 = 0.197136
0.197136 x 11.5 = 2.267064
2.267064 x 28 = 63.477792 grains of powder.

A cube of anything is determined by multiply the height times the width, times the depth, of the object. When you need to compute the cubic area of a cylinder, or other non-square object, it gets a bit more involved.

Now assume that the bore diameter is actually .490, and groove depth is .0055"( .501 minus .490 divided by 2 = .0055")( again, my gun's actual bore diameter)

Now assume that there are 6 lands and grooves, of equal width. The circumference of that bore( .490) is .769692" Divide that by 12( 6 grooves and 6 lands) and you get the width of the lands and grooves to be .064141".

To adjust the cubic area to correct for these "obstructions", you need to subtract from 5.519808 the area occupied by those 6 lands, that are .064141" wide, and .0055" deep.

So, multiply 6 time times .064141 times .0055 = .0003527"

5.519808 - .0003527 = 5.5194553 Cubic Inches
______________________________


If we ran the davenport formula using the Land to land diameter( bore diameter) of .490, we get:

.490 divided by 2 - ..245
.245 x .245 = .060025
.060025 x 3.1416 =.1885745 square inches. ( for a circle that is .490 in diameter.)
.1885745 x 11.5 = 2.1686067 grains per inch
2.168067 x 28 = 60.720987 grains of powder.

So, if you use the smaller diameter of the bore( land to land[.490])

The Davenport formula will give you only 60.72 grains of powder in that 28 inch barrel.

If you use the nominal .50 caliber, the formula gives you 63.22 grains of powder in that 28 inch barrel.

And, if you do all the math needed to actually get the ACTUAL cubic area of that barrel, you get a figure in between those two, 60.7, vs. 63.2! That is a difference of 2.5 grains, and half( assume that the lands and grooves are of equal width) that is only 1.25 grains!( Approx. 61.95 Grains!) Not enough to bother about, NO?
_______________________

Enjoy!

[rodwha]

I'm not familiar with this Davenport formula or what the waste of powder is, but I've never seen that anything about 65 grns of powder in a .50 cal is a waste. This is typically somewhere above 100-120 grns where the return isn't much.

[GoexBlackhorn]

I have been shooting some round ball and Hornady .45cal (240gr) sabots outta my Pedresoli .50 cal Muzz. My question is do I keep upping my load of powder to find best results for grouping? I seem to be kinda all over (6-18" group) I was running 70 gr of FFG. What's your suggestions. I know that the round ball on the sabots will preform different of each other.

Pedersoli (WHAT) 50cal?
What powder?

Also, always build-up a load/bullet combo with more than one option of bullet. Go buy another sabot/bullet of another brand and try those.

[Hogdaddy]

Twist will make a difference.48 is good for round balls or maxi balls ; )
H/D

[fishleclair]

Sorry for not including all the info, This is the one I have http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_94/rifles-alamo-alamo-percussion-model.html. I was using 70gr of Hodgens? FFG.

[rfd]

that's a trad sidelock w/1:48 twist w/dst. forget the sabot nonsense, shoot patched balls - or maxie's or lee REALs if you want more hitting power on game. get more knowledgeable about the powder yer using, and if possible use real black powder. sounds like yer a pilgrim to muzzleloaders, if so we can help you get on the right path if you like. are you hunting or just shooting or both?

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/uploads/prodotti/mid/94S.217.jpg

[fishleclair]

Shooting and want to hunt deer with it. I am fairly new to it and was getting a bit discouraged. I know they aint the most accurate but I know they can be tighter. Ill take the advice and tune er in to the best it can be. I am looking for 75 yard shots.

[rfd]

honestly, yer best bet is a patched ball - a .490 ball will blow right through a deer's vitals at 75 yards - and it'll probably prove to be most accurate of all. i use 80 grains of 3f (and 3f in the pan, as i prefer flintlocks), .015 linen patching over a .490 pure lead cast ball. tough all around load to beat. balls 'n' maxie's will both work well with a 36" tube and 1:48 twist. you have a fine rifle, shoot it a lot, experiment with different types of powder and charges, try different patch thicknesses, maybe give the lee REAL a try, too. it's all good, have fun!

this article may be of help --- http://traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/tradml/index.html

[fishleclair]

Thanks for the advice, Ill be back out running the round ball load, Start at 60Gr then work my way up or down from there.

[rond]

Are those sabots for round ball? The ones I have are for .45 pistol bullets and work very well with 250 gr. RNFP. My start load with a new muzzleloader is 2x the bore and work from there.

[Edward]

I am shooting 535 ball in a slow twist TC Hawken w/.010 mink lubed linen patch,and found that over the 2F /80gr powder I put 2/ 0.15 lubed wads and then the patched ball .The one fat hole@50yds (scoped)does change to a larger group with flyers with a single wad. And because I am retired (time on my hands)I got similar results with 45& 50 cal Guns using 2 wads ,don't know why but it is consistent accuracy !

[rfd]

Are those sabots for round ball? The ones I have are for .45 pistol bullets and work very well with 250 gr. RNFP. My start load with a new muzzleloader is 2x the bore and work from there.

he has a trad sidelock w/1:48 rifling that's representative of the 19th century, not a modern fast twist inline. these trad rifles were meant for patched lead balls and black powder (though it's a cap lock and a good sub will work ok), and it's twist will accommodate a greased maxie or a dry lee REAL.

"start load" should be dependant on the manufacturer's advise and also the type and granularity of powder. starting this .50 with 100 grains of anything would not be a good nor smart choice, imo. using 2f bp, 50 volume grains to *maybe* 90 grains, but always within the manufacturer's limits. be safe.

[rfd]

I am shooting 535 ball in a slow twist TC Hawken w/.010 mink lubed linen patch,and found that over the 2F /80gr powder I put 2/ 0.15 lubed wads and then the patched ball .The one fat hole@50yds (scoped)does change to a larger group with flyers with a single wad. And because I am retired (time on my hands)I got similar results with 45& 50 cal Guns using 2 wads ,don't know why but it is consistent accuracy !

it's about filling up the rifling grooves to seal in the gas, and it works for best accuracy for most folks, like you. bet yer hammering down the double patched balls, too.

[Lead pot]

If the Davenport formula is to complicated then try the old way to come up with a load.
Put the ball in the palm of your hand and pour some real black powder over it till it's covered and that will be your load.

Things just get to complicated for the none scientific mind.:coffee:

[rfd]

If the Davenport formula is to complicated then try the old way to come up with a load.
Put the ball in the palm of your hand and pour some real black powder over it till it's covered and that will be your load.

Things just get to complicated for the none scientific mind.:coffee:

HAH!!! allow common sense to prevail, at all costs! :mrgreen:

[waksupi]

If the Davenport formula is to complicated then try the old way to come up with a load.
Put the ball in the palm of your hand and pour some real black powder over it till it's covered and that will be your load.

Things just get to complicated for the none scientific mind.:coffee:
That kinda works for smaller calibers. Get over .45, and you'll be way short.

[quilbilly]

78 gr of 3F has been my load for all of my 50's with 1/48 for over 20 years with either PRB, sabot + 255 gr CB, or various conicals. All have shot well. Both deer and elk seemed to fall over. I use PRB for deer. Of course, every barrel has its own personality which you will have to discover on your own.

[Lead pot]

That kinda works for smaller calibers. Get over .45, and you'll be way short.

waksupi just for the heck of it I just checked it for the .54 and the .58 round ball. I didn't have any .45 or .50 laying close by. But the .58 it took 82.3 gr of 2F to get it covered on my flat hand with a little cup to hold the ball from rolling and 75 -1/2 for the .54 ball.
I mostly use 80 gr of the 2F in my .58 Hawken and 70 gr in the .54 flint just shooting paper or bowling pins :)
It's a beautiful morning and I'm looking at the Southern flinter on the wall, I think it's time I pull it down and make some smoke :)

[rfd]

geez louise. honestly, cupping a ball in yer palm and sprinkling powder over it as a method of determining each load is, well, really silly. the volume consistency from charge to charge could, would, should be all over the map. this is why we have and use an adjustable volume dynamic measure. trial varying precise throws of powder and once the good load is found for a particular ml, replicate that in a static volume measure (like a 45-70 or 45-90 case, or a plugged length of 7/16" brass tube). this ain't rocket science, either, nor should it be. :)

[Lead pot]

rfd,

I wouldn't even think of holding a ball in my hand sprinkling powder out of the horn over it to load and have the wind blow it all over. LOL. I put a tube on my horn when I use it or a couple 1/2 copper pipe with sweat caps for a quick charge.
Reading the old Fox Fire books and some old books of what the southern hill folks used and did things I saw it mentioned several times how they judged a powder load for their rifles.
But no, I wouldn't do this for every load I shoot.

[rfd]

yep, i've reread the foxfire article on flintlock rifles a dozen times at least.

it mentioned lotsa things the olde tymers did - most made sense, some sure as heck didn't. :)

[fishleclair]

All great advise, Ill just do the ole 50, 60,70,80,90 Grain shootin. See what works best then fine tune from there. I do know when I looked at my video there is a pretty good delay from the pop to the hit on the target and a bit of a hissing sound, Maybe I need to double patch and lube the patchs as well. I was running them dry. Newish to this so I didn't think of the lube. Here is another question. Finding muzz supplies here is tough. Is there a substitute for over the counter patch lube? Can I use lard off a deer or moose? I can get that way easier then any store bought lube.

[rfd]

you'll be trialling and testing for lots of things, which may include - powder brand and granularity, powder charge volume, patch type and thickness and lube, pure lead ball diameter, and maybe even percussion cap brand and size. powder compression will also matter. for lubing the patch, use most anything such as the ever present spit, or crisco, olive oil, tallow, water soluble oil, whatever - it's a must-have, but not as finely important as some suggest. are you cleaning between shots? that would mean the tube, the patent breech ante-chamber, nipple and maybe the bolster (via its clean out screw).

[fishleclair]

I was cleaning ever 2-3 shots. Using #11 primers, Brand I could not tell you off the top of my head. I have some FFFG as well, Ill have to experiment with it and take all the suggestions into play as well. Thanks everyone for the input. Ill use Tallow from moose and deer for the patch lube. When I get home I can answer most of the questions asked on what I am using.

[rfd]

for the latent kaa-booom thing, i'd clean the tube really well, making sure to use a small brush (like a .22) with a patch wrapped around it to get into the ante-chamber - lotta folks forget about that with the offshore guns as they almost all have those patent breeches. use whatever cleaning solvent you think is best, for me that'd be plain old tepid (never hot) tap water, then drying patches, then sightly oiled patch for rust protection.

http://i.imgur.com/hQv38Kw.jpg

[mooman76]

You can get a little creative with the lubes. Some use a little olive oil and I started with Crisco many years ago. It doesn't take allot but stay away from petroleum based lubes. I usually use spit patch. Still works good but only if you shoot soon. It will dry out when hunting so won't work as well. You may be surprised how well that gun shoots once you get it dialed in. Most shoot better than we are capable of.

[waksupi]

waksupi just for the heck of it I just checked it for the .54 and the .58 round ball. I didn't have any .45 or .50 laying close by. But the .58 it took 82.3 gr of 2F to get it covered on my flat hand with a little cup to hold the ball from rolling and 75 -1/2 for the .54 ball.
I mostly use 80 gr of the 2F in my .58 Hawken and 70 gr in the .54 flint just shooting paper or bowling pins :)
It's a beautiful morning and I'm looking at the Southern flinter on the wall, I think it's time I pull it down and make some smoke :) I must cup my hand too much. Doing a .54, I only got around 45 gr. 3fff. Usable, but pretty light. It's been some years since I tried the method, usually just found safe starting loads.

[jjarrell]

It comes down to what your rifle likes to eat. Two identical rifles from the same manufacturer will have different average muzzle velocities with the exact same load. Tool marks in the barrel are slightly different. A burr or very slight constriction in the bore that you can't see or feel. The steel will be different to a degree because it's impossible to have the same molecular structure in two barrels, which will change harmonics as the projectile travels down the bore. There is no shortcut. You have to shoot it and put in the time and work to find what your rifle prefers. We can give a general starting point but it comes down to you finding your rifles pet load. That's the fun part.

[Omnivore]

The math terminology should be corrected here, so people don't think it's complicated or confusing.

There's no such thing as "cubic area". That's called "volume". Area is two dimensional, volume is three.

The simple formula for the volume of a cylinder is;

Pi R squared x height (the area of the circle times the length of the cylinder). Very simple.

Be sure to use the same units throughout, so bore radius in inches, length of barrel in inches, and the answer will be in cubic inches.

That being said; I use 110 grains 2F black in a 48" twist 50 cal barrel that's 24" long, with a .495" ball and a tight fitting lubed patch. It may be an "overbore" load but it works for me. It's filled the freezer for more than a few years now.

[Hanshi]

If I tried the powder in the hand for measuring I'd have powder sticking to my palm and most of it spilled on the ground. I am pretty sure, however, that I'd get enough powder in the bore to push the ball to the muzzle.

I've killed many deer with 80 grains of 3F in my .45 and 100 grains in various .50s. I now use 60 grains of 3F in my .45s for some 1700fps. In my .50 it's 70 grains for the same velocity. I did kill a deer at 75 yards, complete pass-through, using 65 (I believe it was) grains of 3F.

[TCLouis]

fishlecalir

Give use details of what you are doing
Ball Diameter
Patch material
Patch lube
Powder weights tried.
Distance shot for those 6-18" scattered shots

Standing offhand
Rested on a bench

Buncha variables not given for us to provide you with usable assistance.

The "proper" load likely somewhere between 50 and 90 grains for what you seek




Lube, got my formula here years ago

5:4 Beeswax to EVOO firm lube
Patches . . . . TC's Bore Butter.

[725]

Just to throw my two cents in: Everybody is concerned about powder / projectile considerations, which, of course, is proper. I think I'd look further and examine the rifle itself. How is the bore ? Does it cut patches ? Any chance of a bore scope or a look-see by some young eyes ? I've been exposed to a pedersoli that had a VERY rough barrel. Chatter marks and very poor machining that rendered the barrel unusable. Just sayin' ................ Better to check the basics and go from there than to waste efforts without the hope of success. Best of luck.

[fishleclair]

No patches getting cut when I clean it and the residue that is left on my patch look nice and uniform for the rifling I think? Ill take a few pics of it when I get back at it. The barrel is rough on the outside so I imagine the inside may be just as bad possibly? I bought this rifle from a gun shop for $100.00 and I had to spend a bunch of time clreaning it out the first time.

[725]

Well, I sure hope the barrel is good. If not, you are spinning wheels and dishing out a big spoonful of frustration. All is not lost, bad barrels can be made good. Better, in fact, than they could ever come from a factory. Lots of barrel guys out there. One, of renown, is Bob Hoyt. He has done a couple of my ML's and I couldn't be happier. If you know the projectile type (RB - Conical) you want to use, he can recut the rifling, in a larger caliber, to suit your rifle perfectly. I'm not a machinist, so I'm not giving particulars, but rather options to investigate. Once you shoot a pampered barrel with a boolit it's specifically designed for, you'll see what I'm talking about. It's great. Best of luck.

[fishleclair]

Thanks for the info, If its messed up Ill just make it a wall hanger and look into getting another one.

[rodwha]

Phooey! Have the barrel rebored or lined if it's bad.

[fishleclair]

No one around my parts do that, and if I did find a spot the cost would be more then its worth for sure

[rodwha]

Bobby Hoyt is highly recommended. From what I understand it's no more than $100 plus shipping. That rifle is worth a lot more than that, though it may still look good on the wall. I've considered this with a less expensive rifle.