Skool me on the scout scope.

[fastdadio]

I've never handled a rifle with a scout scope set up. Here's my dilemma. M94 trapper ae, 30-30. I couldn't see the sights any more so I mounted a reflex type red dot on it. I love it. Fast, light, simple, and a great sight picture. What I don't like is the 6" moa dot. It's too big at 100 yds and the bright sun light on white paper bleaches out the dot. OK, so maybe I bought the wrong red dot. The sun bleaching is only a problem at the range and is a non issue in the woods. I'm thinking of moving the red dot over to the Bisley and now the Trapper is open to suggestions. Let's compare the two sights strengths and weaknesses. I am unbiased here. I love the dot, but I like a good glass just the same. For me, It's really down to sight picture and speed of target acquisition. A little magnification wouldn't hurt me none either. Say maybe 3x at best. So, my question to those that have experience with both is which would you choose and why? Do I get another dot with a smaller moa or go scout?
:coffeecom

[Wayne Smith]

It really depends on how much you need the magnification and light gathering ability of the scope.

[buckshotshoey]

If you are limiting your shot to 100 yards, magnification should be a non issue. In a wood type environment, magnification can be more of a detriment then an advantage.

Edit....except as mentioned above about light gathering ability.

[Pipefitter]

I just put a Leupold 2-7x on my Win 94 trapper in 45LC, bought it from Optics Planet for about $200.

[fastdadio]

I really don't need magnification on this rifle. It's my deep woods brush gun. I have other rifles with good scopes. Consider it a 100 yd gun. I'm curious about the sight picture. What do I see when I look through the scope with that long eye relief? I can only assume that I see more with the open reflex sight window and I like that. I don't want to give that up. It's fast and makes for easy quick shots. I have shot scoped hand guns before and found the sight picture quite small and felt I had to 'look' for my target. Does this compare to the view with a scout scope?

[hc18flyer]

Last year I set up my Yugo M48 with a 'scout' ier Leopold 2.5 x. I like it, and will use it for deer season. 2.5X seems to match the ranges I will shoot cast at, and my style of Hunting? Flyer

[fastdadio]

I just put a Leupold 2-7x on my Win 94 trapper in 45LC, bought it from Optics Planet for about $200.

Is that a scout scope? I don't want a scope that is half the length of the rifle. I would notice the added weight and I like the minimalist look of the smaller scopes and the reflex sights.

[725]

I've used a couple scout scopes. They are different and you have to let yourself get used to them. Once you do, they are great. Both eyes open and you get the benefit of a set of crosshairs. Very fast target acquisition. I would suggest a low power, even a variable if the low setting is down around 2X or less. You'll have to shop around to see what's available now-a-days. Been years since I looked for a scout scope. I recommend them highly.

[stubert]

I had a Leopold M-8 2x mounted scout style on a Ithaca deerslayer. It was fast, accurate, and dependable. Oh Yea, It looked cool also. The M-8 is a extended eye relief pistol scope.

[PositiveCaster]

I used a Leupold 2X EER scope on an M94 in the late 70s before the angle eject was available. At less than 2X (actual is closer to 1.75X) it worked well as long as I kept both eyes open. But once I tried a red dot sight I never looked back and have a Burris Fastfire mounted on the receiver ring of my M94 Trapper right now. For a 100 yard gun the 4 moa dot is perfect IMO.




.

[725]

FYI, evil-bay has the Leuopold M8 2X for sale for about $130.

[MT Gianni]

I have a 2x scope on a rossi 92 and love it.

[kungfustyle]

same here. I bought a used Burris 2x pistol scope for my Rossi 92 and it is working out great. Looking at my scoping my M48 Mauser but I'm leaning to http://www.midwayusa.com/product/854643/vortex-optics-crossfire-ii-scout-rifle-scope-2-7x-32mm-matte Vortex scout scope. Leupold and Burris have lifetime transferable warranties and you can find them on e-bay for $100 to $120. Good luck and good shooting.

[fastdadio]

I had a Leopold M-8 2x mounted scout style on a Ithaca deerslayer. It was fast, accurate, and dependable. Oh Yea, It looked cool also. The M-8 is a extended eye relief pistol scope.
Loves me some Ithaca Featherlight. I have two.

[fastdadio]

same here. I bought a used Burris 2x pistol scope for my Rossi 92 and it is working out great. Looking at my scoping my M48 Mauser but I'm leaning to http://www.midwayusa.com/product/854643/vortex-optics-crossfire-ii-scout-rifle-scope-2-7x-32mm-matte Vortex scout scope. Leupold and Burris have lifetime transferable warranties and you can find them on e-bay for $100 to $120. Good luck and good shooting.
I just book marked this scope and will look into it further. Thanks.

[Greg S]

Look at the scout scope/intermeadiate eye relief scopes by the different manufacturers. Looking a one for general purpose on several rifles. Leupold now has on with a red dot superimposed overma duplex reticle I believe.

[fecmech]

I have a Leupold 2x scout scope on my Rossi 92 .357 and it is a nice scope. That said a 2x scout or pistol scope has about half the field of view that a regular 2x has. I would look for at least a 4 minute dot (or less)for your gun which is much lighter and way less expensive than a scout scope. The Leupy is 8 oz.+rings so you're looking at an extra 11-12 oz. on top of your rifle. A dot will be less than half that with a wider FOV. I shoot a 4 min. dot on my pistol silhouette gun @ 100 yds on the reduced targets. More than enough definition on a target the size of a Schnauzer. My $.02 on the topic

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have the Burris 2.75X which I think was the first of them, and after experimenting with taping it on a rifle or two, have never fitted it to anything. I believe Jeff Cooper was thinking of a unitary power scope, or not much more, with the aim of having the pictures formed by the two eyes merge, one with crosshairs and the other with an unobstructed view. It is possible that he was inspired by WDM Bell's drawings of the quite different sight pictures obtained on an elephant, with open sights, when both eyes were open and only one. The former gives a much more inclusive picture, with a ghostly see-through rifle superimposed upon it.

One problem for me is that I don't have binocular vision, and never did. I have permanent double vision, which I have learned to live with, partly because I also had the good fortune to be abominably short-sighted, and could have just one eye corrected for long distances. When you get used to it, it is nothing like as troublesome as the same condition temporarily, on a Saturday night.

So this is conjecture, but it wouldn't surprise me if the scopemakers thought the market needed power, and went for too much to make the merging of images easy. I bought the scope with the intention of using it on a Martini, which needs space above the breechblock. But they have made it one-size-fits-all, to suit longer bolt actions, so the eye relief is longer than most of us need.

Magnification isn't as important at many people think. I got good service from my Weaver steel K1.5. I recently bought an old K1 shotgun scope, but found it a disappointment, as for me it gives an image slightly under life size, and you can have too much (Or should it be too little) of a good thing. A scope I really like, with just the right eye relief of five inches or so for a small Martini, is the now discontinued Tasco Bantam. It is short and light, with a slightly stippled finish which means you could touch up any scratches quite well. Mine, unfortunately, is the version without a front bell, but they also made a 2.5 X 32, which appears occasionally on eBay.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have a Leupold 2x scout scope on my Rossi 92 .357 and it is a nice scope. That said a 2x scout or pistol scope has about half the field of view that a regular 2x has. I would look for at least a 4 minute dot (or less)for your gun which is much lighter and way less expensive than a scout scope. The Leupy is 8 oz.+rings so you're looking at an extra 11-12 oz. on top of your rifle. A dot will be less than half that with a wider FOV. I shoot a 4 min. dot on my pistol silhouette gun @ 100 yds on the reduced targets. More than enough definition on a target the size of a Schnauzer. My $.02 on the topic

Standard Schnauzer or miniature? The closer the weight comes to where the hinge-pin of a shotgun would be, between the hands, the less it will be noticeable. The Scout scopes are, at least, an improvement on the pistol scopes which some used on Winchesters etc.

One thing I found annoying about the original Steyr version of the Scout rifle was that for a very light rifle, it had an enormous amount of windage in that enormous plastic bathtub of a forend and handguard, making it unnecessarily wobbly in a sidewind. Handguard? I have done a lot of shooting without ever feeling in danger of being burned.

[W.R.Buchanan]

You could certainly mount a Scout Scope on that gun,,, but it would destroy the handling, which is one of the reasons you have the gun in the first place.. Your first idea with the Red Dot Optic was the way to go, you just got the wrong one.

A Red Dot with a 3MOA dot would have worked perfectly for you.

I will suggest, as I have numerous times here and other places,,, to get a Bushnell TRS 25 which weighs in at 3oz and won't affect the handling of your gun in any way. The 3 MOA dot has 11 brightness settings which allow you to run it in bright sunlight down to almost completely dark. Target Acquisition Speed with a Dot Style Sight is second to no other system, and your old eyes will take to it immediately.

They run anywhere from $69.95 to $89.95 depending on the source.

This product is one of the few items available in the Optics World that is worth far more than it costs. Reviews are now in the thousands and still at 4.6-4.8 stars!!!

There are many others available as well, ranging from $50 to $600. One of my other favorites is the Burris Fast Fire which only weighs 1 oz! they are about $250 and are excellent. I have one on my Glock 35.

I have 6 of these sights and have them on all my .223 carbines, pistol caliber carbines, and various other guns. With the AR, SU16, and Mini14 I can hit a man sized target at 200 yards every single time off a rest. I also have one for my Ruger Scout which is used when targets are inside 300 yards and I have to shoot fast.

The Red Dot Sight is not about "Pin Point Accuracy." It is about getting hits on a target as fast as possible. Kind of what you need in the deep woods.

Here's what some of my guns look like with this sight attached, it may help you visualize what it would look like on your M94 Trapper. If I ever get a Marlin Guide Gun it will have one of these sights on it immediately after I make sure the irons are sighted in correctly.

Randy

[buckshotshoey]

Ive been looking at this for my Henry. Haven't heard anything bad about it. Still considering it. Made by HiLux. Should be good.

https://www.amazon.com/Hi-Lux-Optics-Red-Dot-Riflescope-Rings/dp/B00BJXM3KW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1478385816&sr=8-2&keywords=hilux+red+dot+sight

[cainttype]

You don't have to have IER scope with the AE versions, although I do like them (the EER pistol scopes are useable, but not a "best choice"). A good standard low power, even the older Weaver K 1.5s and K 2.5s, are very effective choices, and mount normally. A good Leupold 1x4 (Vari-x 2 or VX 1) can offer lots of versatility, a huge field of view at the lowest settings provides super-fast target acquisition in dense cover and decent magnification if wanted for close to moderate ranges when zoomed to 4x, without adding bulky weight and reducing the handling qualities.
The older Vari-x II 1x4 can often be picked up very reasonably, and is a hard choice to beat for an all-around optic for thick cover and/or moderate range versatility on short-to-moderate range carbines. I have considered them a favorite for decades that are light, ruggedly dependable, and possibly the most versatile option available for the use you have planned, without spending an arm and a leg.

The lowest-powered variable VX IIs (and older Vari-X IIIs, 1.5x4.5) are a step up in optics, while the VX IIIs may be the best optics available in their price ranges.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, but those rifles all have quite a bit of all that confounded modernity people seem to go for nowadays.

[fecmech]

I missed the fact that the gun we were talking about was an angle eject. If you want a scope there are a lot of old Weaver K 2.5's floating around in the $50. range. Those are perfect for that gun and balance over the receiver unlike the scouts on the barrel. Personally I still think the Red Dot is the best idea.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

what kind of carbine is in the center there, it looks like a carbine upper for a pistol? I saw a website for those once, but forgot the brand

[rwadley]

Kel-Tec?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Top left is Ruger 10/22, Top Center is Kel-Tec Sub 2000 .40S&W, Top Right is Kel-Tec SU16 CA .223, Middle Left is Ruger Scout .308, Middle Center is Ruger Mini 14, and Bottom is Bushmaster Carbon 15 AR15.

Randy

[firefly1957]

180303I have my grandfathers Remington model 81 in 300 Savage when i was young he told me that if he put the front sight on a deer from the muzzle to 300 yards he had venison for dinner . I asked why he did not use it anymore he said "OLD EYES" i am now understanding what he meant! This gun loads and ejects from the top and has NO scope provision i noticed the barrel shroud was 1" same as a scope so i used the rear sight holes and a modified scope ring to do this (picture attached) it works quite well the scope is an inexpensive 2-7 X pistol scope . This gun will shoot M.O.A. with factory ammo.

[Texas by God]

180303I have my grandfathers Remington model 81 in 300 Savage when i was young he told me that if he put the front sight on a deer from the muzzle to 300 yards he had venison for dinner . I asked why he did not use it anymore he said "OLD EYES" i am now understanding what he meant! This gun loads and ejects from the top and has NO scope provision i noticed the barrel shroud was 1" same as a scope so i used the rear sight holes and a modified scope ring to do this (picture attached) it works quite well the scope is an inexpensive 2-7 X pistol scope . This gun will shoot M.O.A. with factory ammo.

You sir know how to fix it. That's a damn good idea as long as it doesn't mar the finish. Way to think! Best, Thomas.
Oh and by the way I tried a scout scope on several rifles. Not for me I guess. Or red dots. They seem to get left on.....

[gwpercle]

If you can , try a peep sight on the Winchester. My vision started going and one day a used Williams 5-D receiver sight (marked model 94) was spotted at the local shop....$15.00 seemed fair. I knew the 94 was drilled and tapped for one from the factory.
Mounted it and something about looking through the peep that sharpened the front sight and helped with the target .... a whole lot more than you would think. I can hit with it again and it's not a scope. The sight is compact .
Scopes on a model 94 just mess up the look and balance.
Gary

[buckshotshoey]

I think im going to try this Marbles sight. VERY interesting for the money.
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sights/rear-sights/bullseye-rear-sight-prod27265.aspx?avs%7cManufacturer_1=MARBLE%2bARMS

[AggieEE]

When I first saw a picture of Col. Cooper's scout rifle my first thought was a solution looking for a problem. Years later I got to handle one and the whole handling felt off. Too muzzle heavy for my tastes. As for "tactical awareness" if you have a tendency to get target lock having the scope that far out in front of you is not going to help. Shooting skeet I got used to having an idea of where that second target was.

[buckshotshoey]

Ordered one on Brownells just a few minutes ago. Too interesting to pass up. Especially when considering the price of receiver mounted ghost ring set ups. Will let you'all know if its any good.

180358

[firefly1957]

It has not marred the barrel sleeve at all , It does change the guns balance but the only negative is when standing the gun against an object as it needs more lean .

You sir know how to fix it. That's a damn good idea as long as it doesn't mar the finish. Way to think! Best, Thomas.
Oh and by the way I tried a scout scope on several rifles. Not for me I guess. Or red dots. They seem to get left on.....

[Malamute]

Ive been somewhat of a fan over the years, but after handling some, have fallen out of like with them. I think the point for using one would be on a gun that regular mounting doesn't work well, like top eject Winchesters and such.

Reading about a number of fans of scout rifles and scope, it seems quite a lot have gone to regular scopes and consider them much better all around, without the downsides that the forward mounted scope has, such as light reflection off the rear lense, smaller field of view, and poorer light gathering ability.

Theres several good red dots that don't run batteries down, but they aren't cheap. Reports of several years of battery life when left on full time seems fairly common with better grade sights. I believe several of the Aimpoints have such battery life. I like red dots, but also like the regular scopes, especially ones like the medium/compact Leupold VWII 2-7x.

[Texas by God]

It has not marred the barrel sleeve at all , It does change the guns balance but the only negative is when standing the gun against an object as it needs more lean .
That model 81 will definitely test that scope. And with the extra weight might kick a little less. I love those Browning pogo sticks.

[yondering]

I think the most important detail to know about scout scopes is that pistol scopes are NOT scout scopes. I suspect many people who have "tried" the scout scope concept and didn't like it did so with a pistol scope; they just don't work well for that purpose, you need an Intermediate Eye Relief (IER) scope, not Long Eye Relief (LER) like a pistol scope.

I used the Leupold scout scope on my scout rifle, and found it an excellent combination. The back of the scope was right over the top of the receiver/barrel junction, not way out on the barrel as some do. The handling was excellent, and being a Leupold, light gathering was excellent as well.

High mounted scout scopes are also a very poor way to set up a rifle; mount them low, almost touching the barrel, so the rifle shoulders like you're using iron sights. Tall scope mounts throw everything out of balance and ruin the whole concept.

[Malamute]

I think the most important detail to know about scout scopes is that pistol scopes are NOT scout scopes. I suspect many people who have "tried" the scout scope concept and didn't like it did so with a pistol scope; they just don't work well for that purpose, you need an Intermediate Eye Relief (IER) scope, not Long Eye Relief (LER) like a pistol scope.

I used the Leupold scout scope on my scout rifle, and found it an excellent combination. The back of the scope was right over the top of the receiver/barrel junction, not way out on the barrel as some do. The handling was excellent, and being a Leupold, light gathering was excellent as well.

High mounted scout scopes are also a very poor way to set up a rifle; mount them low, almost touching the barrel, so the rifle shoulders like you're using iron sights. Tall scope mounts throw everything out of balance and ruin the whole concept.


I don't believe any of the people I was referring to were using pistol scopes as an intermediate eye relief scope.

[yondering]

Ordered one on Brownells just a few minutes ago. Too interesting to pass up. Especially when considering the price of receiver mounted ghost ring set ups. Will let you'all know if its any good.

180358

I have one of these sights on a 12g slug barrel, the middle one in your pic I believe.

It is a neat sight, and very fast to aquire a sight picture. I don't think it's quite as good for precision, but is perfect for a shotgun slug barrel. I wouldn't mind it on a lever action as well.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Misc/IMG_2813.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Misc/IMG_2815.jpg

[buckshotshoey]

[QUOTE=yondering;3839819]I have one of these sights on a 12g slug barrel, the middle one in your pic I believe.

It is a neat sight, and very fast to aquire a sight picture. I don't think it's quite as good for precision, but is perfect for a shotgun slug barrel. I wouldn't mind it on a lever action as well.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its going on my Henry. Dont care for the semi buckhorn that came with it. It might have been ok 10 years ago, but my eyes have went south in what seems like a hurry. This should give me a better view of the target. The semi buckhorn and front bead block out more then half the target. If this dont get the job done, Ill have to go red dot. I just dont like the looks of a scope on a lever gun. I temporarily mounted (tape) my sons Eotec on the Henry to see what it would look like. IT LOOKED BUTT UGLY TO ME!

[ironhead7544]

The Burris Scout scope works just fine. Takes a bit to get used to it but once you do, it is very fast. Also allows easy access to the action of a bolt rifle.

[ironhead7544]

I have the Burris 2.75X which I think was the first of them, and after experimenting with taping it on a rifle or two, have never fitted it to anything. I believe Jeff Cooper was thinking of a unitary power scope, or not much more, with the aim of having the pictures formed by the two eyes merge, one with crosshairs and the other with an unobstructed view. It is possible that he was inspired by WDM Bell's drawings of the quite different sight pictures obtained on an elephant, with open sights, when both eyes were open and only one. The former gives a much more inclusive picture, with a ghostly see-through rifle superimposed upon it.

One problem for me is that I don't have binocular vision, and never did. I have permanent double vision, which I have learned to live with, partly because I also had the good fortune to be abominably short-sighted, and could have just one eye corrected for long distances. When you get used to it, it is nothing like as troublesome as the same condition temporarily, on a Saturday night.

So this is conjecture, but it wouldn't surprise me if the scopemakers thought the market needed power, and went for too much to make the merging of images easy. I bought the scope with the intention of using it on a Martini, which needs space above the breechblock. But they have made it one-size-fits-all, to suit longer bolt actions, so the eye relief is longer than most of us need.

Magnification isn't as important at many people think. I got good service from my Weaver steel K1.5. I recently bought an old K1 shotgun scope, but found it a disappointment, as for me it gives an image slightly under life size, and you can have too much (Or should it be too little) of a good thing. A scope I really like, with just the right eye relief of five inches or so for a small Martini, is the now discontinued Tasco Bantam. It is short and light, with a slightly stippled finish which means you could touch up any scratches quite well. Mine, unfortunately, is the version without a front bell, but they also made a 2.5 X 32, which appears occasionally on eBay.

Check out the Vortex 1X scope. It is about 1.2 or 1.3 actual power. 90 foot field of view at 100 yards. Works like iron sights you dont have to align. Eye relief should be long enough for you. I have then on 4 carbines.

I can quickly adjust the focus for use without my glasses or with my reading glasses. Lifetime Warranty, too.

[yondering]

[QUOTE=yondering;3839819]I have one of these sights on a 12g slug barrel, the middle one in your pic I believe.

It is a neat sight, and very fast to aquire a sight picture. I don't think it's quite as good for precision, but is perfect for a shotgun slug barrel. I wouldn't mind it on a lever action as well.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its going on my Henry. Dont care for the semi buckhorn that came with it. It might have been ok 10 years ago, but my eyes have went south in what seems like a hurry. This should give me a better view of the target. The semi buckhorn and front bead block out more then half the target. If this dont get the job done, Ill have to go red dot. I just dont like the looks of a scope on a lever gun. I temporarily mounted (tape) my sons Eotec on the Henry to see what it would look like. IT LOOKED BUTT UGLY TO ME!

Yeah that sight is a lot better than a buckhorn, big improvement. I think you'll like it, given what you've described.

I agree on looks of a red dot on a lever action, although they can work well if done right. I wouldn't use an Eotech though; there are lots of smaller and better options. Look at Leupold's Deltapoint Pro for a real minimalist red dot; they don't look too bad on a lever gun, and the glass is clear enough to work really well (unlike the Trijicon RMR, which I really don't like on a rifle because of the glass). The T1 clone that Primary Arms makes (the MD-ADS sight) is a good option too, for a very reasonable price. It's smaller than an Eotech, but still bigger than a Deltapoint. Any T1 mounts work.

[eagle27]

The scout scope does have advantages over a reflex type sight, a magnified picture, a fine aiming point and much superior for working up loads on targets. The scope can be used with one eye shut as most do when using a scope or both eyes open as you have to with a reflex sight which does give a good view of the whole picture. I found the reflex sight difficult to use when working up loads on a target where when trying hard to get a good steady sight picture and trigger control my eyes would start to lose the dot, plus of course most dots are too big for precise target shooting.
The scout scope gives the best of both worlds IMO. The magnification available with the scope also aids seeing animals in bush and threading bullets through bush on stationary shots. It is not always about shooting moving targets.
If you are going the scout scope way best to invest in a good one. The M8 2x Leupold EER scope is probably about the best to be had, I think the later model maybe a 2.5x.

Because of the 20mm objective on the lighter and compact scout scopes e.g. the M8 Leupold, the light gathering and FOV are not as good as found on normal larger objective lens scopes, hence you need to go for quality optics to get the best from the Scout scope.
I replaced a Single Point green dot reflex sight on my 404J with a 2x Leupold and it has given nearly 30 years service.

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt146/Lindsayb_01/OberndorfSporter404J_zps42878705.jpg (http://s606.photobucket.com/user/Lindsayb_01/media/OberndorfSporter404J_zps42878705.jpg.html)

[yondering]

The M8 2x Leupold EER scope is probably about the best to be had,

I agree that the Leupold scout scope is the best one out there, but the EER is a pistol scope, not a scout scope. It may seem like a small distinction, but in use there is a big difference. Leupold makes an IER scope specifically for scout rifles; that is the best one to be had. Maybe that's what you're thinking of? Here:
https://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting/scopes/fixed-power-riflescopes/fx-ii-scout-ier-2-5x28mm/

Mine was the earlier version, I thought it was either 1.75x or 2.25x, some odd number, but maybe it was 2x? That was about 15 years ago though.

[buckshotshoey]

[QUOTE=buckshotshoey;3839928]

Yeah that sight is a lot better than a buckhorn, big improvement. I think you'll like it, given what you've described.

I agree on looks of a red dot on a lever action, although they can work well if done right. I wouldn't use an Eotech though; there are lots of smaller and better options. Look at Leupold's Deltapoint Pro for a real minimalist red dot; they don't look too bad on a lever gun, and the glass is clear enough to work really well (unlike the Trijicon RMR, which I really don't like on a rifle because of the glass). The T1 clone that Primary Arms makes (the MD-ADS sight) is a good option too, for a very reasonable price. It's smaller than an Eotech, but still bigger than a Deltapoint. Any T1 mounts work.

Ouch! $419.00 on Amazon! My butt hurts just thinking about it! Jokes aside, that wont be in my budget for the foreseeable future.
Nice product. Small wallet.

[eagle27]

Yes I know Leupold and others do make IER scopes but back when I bought my M8 2x EER scope I don't think they made the IER scopes. Anyway the main reason I went with the EER pistol scope was that it is guaranteed to stand up to the constant abuse from the heaviest recoiling pistols which back then was the 44 Magnum. In my case this has proven well worth the money as I haven't experienced any issues at all with my 2x EER scope on a fairly light Mauser in 404 Jeffery. The eye relief is perfect on the Mauser which does have a long length of pull.
Not so sure what you get different with the Leupold FX-II 2.5x28 IER scope, same FOV as the FX-II 2x20 EER pistol scope but bigger, heavier and less eye relief than the pistol scope which is designed for heavy recoil. Whats the pay back?

[W.R.Buchanan]

I found the reflex sight difficult to use when working up loads on a target where when trying hard to get a good steady sight picture and trigger control my eyes would start to lose the dot, plus of course most dots are too big for precise target shooting.

The secret to accurately indexing a Red Dot type of sight on a target is to use a Diamond Shaped Target Spot and index the edge of the dot on the target on either of the side points. This type of target is also superior when adjusting Iron Sights as it provides a precise point of aim that can be accurately indexed in the center of the front sight. If you can't focus on the Front Sight get your glasses adjusted until you can focus on it, other wise you are wasting your time..

With a 3 MOA dot the best you are going to do on a round spot target is 3MOA. If you index the side of the dot on a point on the diamond target you remove all of the slop. Thus the POI should be adjusted to be 1.5" off the point of the target, but will be centered in the dot when you are done.

Elevation works the same way.

Typically Red Dot Sights are not about pin point accuracy. They are about speed of target acquisition, and there is nothing faster. You put the dot on the target and let fly! Simple as that.

There is a trade off for sure, but for a Hunting Rifle or Pistol to be used at close to moderate ranges >10-200 yards, the speed of target acquisition TRUMPS :bigsmyl2: pinpoint accuracy IMHO, as the kill zone on most deer sized game is a 9" circle. With very little practice you should be able to hit a 9" Pie Plate at 100-150 yards every single time off a rest.

With a Cross Hair you invariably will line up one hair, then the other, and tend to study the sight picture until you are satisfied and then pull the trigger..

With the Red Dot and some practice you break the habit of studying the sights and it eventually becomes, Target bang, target bang, target bang. Plinking with a Semi-Auto.22 will accomplish this in fairly short order.

You learn to not tell yourself to pull the trigger. When the sight comes to bare the shot breaks. It is the sight picture that triggers the response to pull the trigger, not the little voice in your head telling your finger to move.

The other advantage that the Red Dot Sight has is the ability to shoot accurately until nearly dark. If you can discern any target silhouette you can place a shot on that target. It is pretty hard to miss a bright Red Dot against a black or dark colored background.

Trying a Red Dot needn't cost more than $90 for a Bushnell TRS-25, after you mount the thing and use it for a while you will be sold on the concept. I posted pics of my guns with these sights above and I didn't do it to show how bitchin' I am. I did it because they work! And with them on 6 different guns you would think I'm pretty sure of it.

The Red Dot Sight is a relatively new thing, but it is going to be the norm soon,,, and in my recent Front Sight Pistol Class with 34 people there were 6 guns with Red Dot Sights. That's nearly 20%! It's the wave of the future, and when I see Professional Hunter Ivan Carter with a Burris Fast Fire on his .500NE Double Rifle as an everyday gun in Africa, I know they are here to stay.

I realize this is a little unconventional and certainly not traditional, but if you can simply swallow all your preconditions for a while and try one, you'll see it is a better way to accomplish the intended purpose.

Randy

[yondering]

Not so sure what you get different with the Leupold FX-II 2.5x28 IER scope, same FOV as the FX-II 2x20 EER pistol scope but bigger, heavier and less eye relief than the pistol scope which is designed for heavy recoil. Whats the pay back?

That should be self explanatory - you get the correct eye relief for a scout scope. Pistol scopes are intended for use at arms length. Scout scopes are closer than that, hence the intermediate eye relief. The pay back is that it works a whole lot better with the correct eye relief.

[kingstrider]

I have owned a number of Leupold and Burris scout scopes over the years but my favorite is on this this .308 Ruger Frontier. It started as a gunmetal Leupold FX-II scope that I picked up cheap due to a broken reticle. I sent it back to Leupold and they replaced it with a German #4 at no cost. While it was there I had them add VX-3 finger adjustable knobs which cost about $100. Some find a 2x scope limiting but this gun will cloverleaf shots at 100 yards using a good rest and handloaded Nosler 150grain Accubond bullets.
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t138/kingstrider/gun%20stuff/frontier%20scout%206.jpg
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t138/kingstrider/gun%20stuff/scout%20scope%202.jpg
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t138/kingstrider/gun%20stuff/scout%20scope%201.jpg

[mcdaniel.mac]

[QUOTE=yondering;3840773]

Ouch! $419.00 on Amazon! My butt hurts just thinking about it! Jokes aside, that wont be in my budget for the foreseeable future.
Nice product. Small wallet.
I use a Burris Fastfire and a Primary Arms microdot and save the $400 stuff for other projects. The PA micro is a nice little sealed red dot for $90, and a good many of them live on AKs over the gas tube nd manage to survive the heat well enough.

[timalso]

The Scoutscope allows one to look with both eyes open to find a target. Low powered from 1.5 to 2.75 are the norm for fixed scopes and all kinds of options for variables. They take a while to get used to and then they are indispensable. Leupold, Burris, Nikon and Leatherwood are manufacturers with frequent new offerings.

They are not the best scopes at dawn or dusk as light gathering capabilities are less than perfect. In addition, if one's eyes are cross dominant, they can cause,issues.

Prior to purchasing, try a friend's rifle first.

Have fun fun out there.

Regards to all,
Tim(also)

[44man]

Light is the only concern. A pistol scope is the worst but IER can suffer some. Your eye needs a 5mm exit pupil in dim light but the farther from your eye it is the more that scatters.
Low power gives more light with 1X the largest exit pupil and more light to your eye.
I have tried scopes on revolvers a lot and could see deer fine in the AM and PM but the scope had some gremlin put electrical tape over the eyepiece.
I went to Ultra Dots on all mine, 4 minute dot and will never go back.
Adjustable dots gave me trouble with POI changes and those that change the reticle picture the worst. The masks they use in front of the diode are near impossible to get perfect.
I found long ago to keep brightness down and even a 4 min dot does not cover that much at 100.
As I hunt and the day gets brighter I turn the dot on to see how I see it and just turn to that setting needed. I never leave the light on and have not changed some batteries in over 6 years.
It is second nature to dial the light when I see a deer.
I would use an Ultra Dot on a scout rifle in a second.
I worry about rain or snow on the heads up reflex stuff.

[fredj338]

I have a 2x Leupold on my Marlins GG, really like it. It is fast to mount & 2x is enough for me out to the 150yds or so that I consider the 45-70 limit.

[fastdadio]

I'm still out here guys. Lurkin n lurnin. I've bookmarked several of your scope suggestions. This is a great thread.

[danmat]

My sons first rifle 94 ae trapper, 1.5x5x20 vx3 leupold mounted low rings, its small enough to not affect handling. Adjusted properly when you shoulder the gun at 1.5 setting, its as fast as anything I have ever used. 30 yrs. later he still uses this gun more than any other in his safe, ask him why and he shrugs and says, I just never miss with it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Check out the Vortex 1X scope. It is about 1.2 or 1.3 actual power. 90 foot field of view at 100 yards. Works like iron sights you dont have to align. Eye relief should be long enough for you. I have then on 4 carbines.

I can quickly adjust the focus for use without my glasses or with my reading glasses. Lifetime Warranty, too.

They look good. I'd prefer the conventionally styled one to the prismatic ones, ingenious as they are. I suppose the latter have a roof prism to turn the image upright, rather than an erecting lens. The conventionally styled one is termed "muzzle-loader", but can hardly be sensitive to which end the ammunition goes in.

But all I can find in their current range have an eye relief of only 3.7 to 3.8in., and that is suitable only or conventional mounting. I agree that eagle27's Leupold 2x, in post 44, looks about the optimum position for two-eyed shooting with a bolt action rifle, and would also be good for shorter actions. Even that doesn't quite conform to Jeff Cooper's vision, as he wanted the scope not to protrude over the magazine at all, principally to allow the use of stripper clips. That doesn't matter to many of us, and I can't ever remember a magazine jam that made that much improvement in access significant.

[hc18flyer]

180957Works just fine! 2.5 Leopold IER, on a S & K mount on my Yugo M48 Mauser. I bought the scope used on 'evilbay' for $200, sent in in to Leopold, cause the recticle was loose(free repair). Only thing better, would be some type of ballistic recticle like my Nikon scope. The combo of only 2.5 power and generous eye relief, makes it easy to shoot. Flyer

[yondering]

Old low quality picture, but this was my VZ-24 Mauser converted to 30-06 in a scout configuration with the Leupold IER scope. Note the very low scope mounting to the receiver, this is important for the concept to work well.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Misc/Scout-1.jpg

[mnewcomb59]

Scout scopes magnify parallax errors compared to norma eye relief scopes. Parallax is like reading an analog speedometer from the passengers seat. If your eye isn't perfectly centered in the scope, you will miss by some measurable amount. Even with a good bench rest, expect to lose an inch off your group size. My scout scope had a fixed parallax at 50 yards. That means that the eye placement errors had less effect at that range. At 100 yards I could send a round 2" high by holding my eye a little low, or 2" right by holding my eye a little left, etc.

So take a 2 moa gun and add a 4 moa scope... You do the math. It was no Leupold however, so I might get a $300 scout scope and try again in the future. For now I am happy with my virtually parallax free Fastfire 3 which is noticeably more accurate for 2 eyes open snap shooting. If the dot is on target you won't miss, even if you shouldered the gun bad in all the excitement. Sometimes I miss magnification for 100 yard target shooting, but then I hang up a round paper plate and put the round dot in the center and shoot 2 moa and I'm happy. Maybe I can't see 2" targets at 100y with the 3 moa dot, but I promise the dot works great for everything else.

[holtzfan]

I have a savage scout and took a gamble on a. u t g / scout scope. I have shot a few hundred rounds and the scope is dead on.

[HangFireW8]

You could certainly mount a Scout Scope on that gun,,, but it would destroy the handling, which is one of the reasons you have the gun in the first place.

Please explain why you believe this.

Reason is, I have several scout and lower power scopes mounted, and it is a joy to carry a rifle at the balance point with the scope sitting entirely ahead of the action. If you're talking about the weight of the scope, if the mount/rings/scope weighs that much, it's not a proper scout scope.

Likewise, if the entire mount/scope/ring is not forward of the action, it's not a proper scout scope setup.

[olafhardt]

Being a cheap skate I bought BSA 2 or 2.5.× pistol scopes for scout guns. They worked OK. Better are the 2 power Bushnells I picked up cheap at gun shows. I don't know why but a Leupold pistol sight did not work well. I made a couple scout 20 gauge single shot squirrel killing machines with flat steel drilled and tapped for rings and held on by hose clamps and Gorilla glue.

[yondering]

I don't know why but a Leupold pistol sight did not work well.

Because it's a pistol scope, not a scout scope.

Guys, scout scopes are not the same as pistol scopes, they are two different things.

[44man]

Because it's a pistol scope, not a scout scope.

Guys, scout scopes are not the same as pistol scopes, they are two different things.
Exactly, pistol scope will be darker and darker if power is too great and as power is turned up the picture gets smaller and darker.
But comes the way to use a scope or dot of any kind is always with 2 eyes, even a regular rifle scope. You do not need a scout scope to use both eyes. You will still get less light to your eye with a scout, remember the exit pupil? It can shorten your hunting day. Most states are 1/2 hour before and after sunrise and sunset. You might be blind.
I argued with a scope maker once, they told me the exit for a LER was 5mm but the scope is 2' from the eye. Exit is a mathematical measurement, not at the eye.

[Mk42gunner]

I'm not a big fan of scout scopes. I did try it on a hackjob K98 in .30-06, that I subsequently turned into a .35 Whelen.

I used a cheap pistol scope, (not the best, but it worked for proof of concept) that I built the base so I got the full field of view. It worked fine and I was about to cut the barrel and make the rifle more compact, when the last plinking expedition into the desert we happened to set up with the sun behind us. Massive glare on the objective lens that no amount of high priced scope would correct. There was no problem with conventionally mounted scopes that day.

If you go with the scout mounting, definitely go with a real scout scope. Just be wary of the sun shining over your shoulder.

I'm not really a fan of dot sights either, but a small one on the receiver ring might not screw up the balance on a Model 94 trapper too bad.

I don't understand the "You can't shoot a high magnification scope with both eyes open" argument, up until a few years ago I had very good vision and I shot everything with both eyes open.

Robert

[W.R.Buchanan]

Please explain why you believe this.

Because the gun is a 16" Winchester Trapper Levergun which is designed to be a small, lightweight, quick handling gun. Any scope would add a pound to the gun and defeat the primary purpose of having the gun in the first place. IE; Light, and Quick Handling.

Also the scope would increase the overall size of the gun which would decrease it's "Carryability."

On the other hand a small Red Dot Sight Like a Burris Fast Fire or even a Bushnell TRS-25 would only increase the weight by 1 to 3 oz, and not be some Big Tube hanging off the gun, and not affect handling or carry one bit.

This is a "to each is own" situation and the guy will set the gun up however he chooses and was only asking for ideas.

Now if it was my gun I'd mount an XS or Skinner Ghost Ring on the back and a XS White Line Front Sight and be done with it.

Once you learn that the Front Sight is all you need to focus on you will find that a big white line against a dark background is pretty easy to hit with.

Randy

[fastdadio]

'Carrayability' Is very important here. It's what this rifle is designed for. And being a top priority, has led me to decide to stick with a dot. I have two picked out from suggestions made above. 1 being an economy model and the other is quality model made in the US with a life time warranty. I just have to mull the advantages of each for a bit before I reach for my wallet. As for ghost ring/peep sights, the rifle has a Williams peep mounted. I'm no stranger to peeps and I like them a lot. The problem is that it has the wrong front sight. It's too thin and I simply can't see it. It's a problem that has to be addressed and also is what led me down the optics rabbit hole to begin with.

[W.R.Buchanan]

FD: take and paint the back edge of your front sight white. it will show up a lot better like the ones in my pic above. See if that works for you, you can always wipe it off if you don't like it.

Also I'd go get a Bushnell TRS 25 to try on your gun. I assure you that you will be pleased with them (I have 6) and for $80-90 they are a bargain. If you're not in a big hurry you'll be able to find one on sale this time of year and I have seen them for as little as $64.95. $89.95 is the normal everyday price.

If you already had one on the gun then you should have some Picatinny Rail attached to it and mounting it will be a bolt up.

Randy

[fastdadio]

FD: take and paint the back edge of your front sight white. it will show up a lot better like the ones in my pic above. See if that works for you, you can always wipe it off if you don't like it.

Also I'd go get a Bushnell TRS 25 to try on your gun. I assure you that you will be pleased with them (I have 6) and for $80-90 they are a bargain. If you're not in a big hurry you'll be able to find one on sale this time of year and I have seen them for as little as $64.95. $89.95 is the normal everyday price.

If you already had one on the gun then you should have some Picatinny Rail attached to it and mounting it will be a bolt up.

Randy
Haha! Since my last post the family was over for left overs and we picked names for Santa. I put the Bushnell on my name card as a suggestion. We'll see what Santa brings... No hurry here. And yes, the Trapper has a Pearson's picatinny rail mount in the rear sight dove tail.
http://mod94scoperail.com/
I was also looking at the XS front sights you suggested. I like them and think one would be fine. How do I know what height post to buy? I never shot the rifle with the existing front post to know if it's right or not. I will likely call Williams also to find out what they suggest. Williams Gun Site is about 45 min. drive from me. Thanks for posting.
Dave.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dave: so it sounds like you're all set up.

As far as the correct height Front Sight to buy,,, XS measures from the top to the bottom of the sight itself. If you call them they will walk you thru it. Should be the same as your existing front sight. If it was a stock sight it should be dead on with Factory.30-30 ammo.

Randy

[Mk42gunner]

What I did when I installed one of the XS white line sights was measure the existing front, then I ordered the next taller one and filed it to get my basic zero.

Robert

[fastdadio]

The problem is that I don't know if the existing sight post is factory or not. It is a very thin post with a small white bead. I'll call Williams when the time comes for that. Excellent gun shop by the way.