Giving it a try

[Toymaker]

The rifle is a Pedersoli 1885 High Wall in 38-55. The twist is 1:12. I'm using Starline 2.125" brass, new and trimmed to 2.125 - 2.126. Really pleased how the trimming came out. I slugged the bore all the way through, the first 6 inches from the chamber and the last 6 inches at the muzzle. The measurements for all three sluggings came out the same. Bore = 0.372"; Groove = 0.379". The goove was dead on, the bore could be +0.0005" so I'm not going to worry about it.

To start I want to patch to bore diameter, or close. I test wrapped 10 different papers and settled on A) BACO 9# Onion Skin wrapped 3 times (0.3733"). Down the line I'll probably try B) Aquabee Layout Bond, 2 wraps (0.3754") and C) Staples Notebook paper, 2 wraps (0.3741") as they were close.

The bullets are the BACO 0.365", 300 grain pure lead slicks. Actual measurements were 0.364" and 299.5 to 300.8 grains. The average length of 10 was 1.16875". Very nice looking bullets.

I had to mess and fiddle with getting the paper the right length so it didn't overlap. I thought I had it and wrapped 10 bullets, leaving them to dry over night. Next morning I found that 7 were actually overlapping edges so I took them apart and started over. Took me a couple of tries before I figured out that the paper was still stretching as I rolled them bullets. After learning that lesson I watched carefully and stopped before getting an overlap. I dried these 7 in the oven and they look great. I took the micrometer to all 10 and found the 3 that dried overnight were 0.3729" (yea, all 3). The 7 oven dried ranged from 0.3731" to 0.3734". This is amazing because it isn't me - I'm a bumbling fool with 11 thumbs.

Next is working on the load. But I wanted to share the bullets. I've enjoyed and learned from this forum and wanted to share. Comments welcomed.

179977

[country gent]

3 wraps may give you some release problems with the patch. Are you wetting the patch when wrapping? Wet paper will stretch more than dry does. Try setting a spounge in a plate of water and let capilary action bring the water to the top surface. This will very lightly dampen patches set on it. Set 3-5 patches on it and start with 1st patch set it off and replace with another. Wrap bullet and repeat working thru the patches replacing each used. The number of patches sets the time moistening on the spounge. I have also used a mixture of Lee sizing die wax ( the water souluable one) and water mixed 4 parts water to 1 part wax. This makes a good wetting agent and a little lube to the patch along with a light water proofing. Its kind of interesting waching thepatches on the spounge as they will curl some when set on it then slowly uncurl again as the moisture evens out and the patches normalize. Ive been using Seth Cole paper to wrap 40 and 45 cal bullets. Its .0018 thick. So with your .365 dia bullet + (.0018 X4 layers ) = .3725 or so. I like about .030 gap between the edges this is because when the paper covers the begining edge there is a light radius there that can cause a tighter fit to be proud sometimes. Cut a patch thats a perfect match on the ends and measure cross the seam and 90* top it may be a thousandth or so proud. Wrapped with a small gap between the bullets come out very round and true. If possible recoveer your patches when fired this will tell you alot about how they are performing. You may eed someone watching to see where they go.

[Lead pot]

Toymaker
Three wraps is not ideal unless your using very thin old type writer copy paper like they used under the carbon sheet. It is less then 1-1/2 thousands thick then you will get good separation with three wraps. But again I know a fellow that uses printer paper that would be like using three wraps of onion skin and gets very good accuracy using it.

Try this for getting your correct patch length.
Take a strip of your patch paper and if your using three wraps make four tight wraps around your bullet and take a sharp knife and cut through the wraps down to the bullet base. Unroll the strip and use the inner most slit on the paper and use the first and third slit from the bullet and cut your taper. This will get your patch length where the ends meet if you had the strip tight on the bullet.
Wet patching tends to stretch the patch, this will give you a over lap where dry patching wont do this.
When you have the correct length with the angle cut, I like a 50 degree patch angle my self.
Take some brass sheet stock you can find at a hobby store or use some plastic that most things now get packaged in that you might use some bad words when getting the product out :) and make a template of your proper fitting patch to use for cutting more. Make one for wet wrap or dry, they will be different in length.
Get out and shoot and have fun.

[Toymaker]

Country Gent - got your message also. Thank you. A friend loaned me his copy of Wright's "Loading and Shooting Paper Patched Bullets - A Beginner's Guide". Anybody who will "guarantee" following his process will get 3 MOA results got my attention. It was also well laid out and simple to follow, plus he uses stuff you'd have on hand without buying a mess of new stuff. So I'm following it to see what happens.

I am using wet patches. I dry wrap first to make sure I have the patch straight. Then I unwrap until I can see the base of the bullet. Then I measure to make sure I have the patch in the right position, wet the patch under a dripping faucet and wrap. I have a patching board that I'll use to check what I've done and roll the patched bullet to get things tight. This is more involved than it needs to be, but I want to become confident with things before simplifying.

Lead pot - I did pretty much exactly as you suggested for making a template. Mines temporary, made of two thin sheets of very hard wood (Quebracho) sandwiching a layer of JB Weld. It works surprisingly well. I set up a 40° angle. My problem with the overlap was in my rolling technique after wrapping. I was rolling too much, stretching the paper, making it thinner, and getting an overlap. Once I figured that out I was able to adjust and things worked out perfectly.
Remember, I'm bumbling along with 11 thumbs. :roll:
Current issue is with the grease cookie. I know I can eliminate it since I'm able to wipe between shots but I want to use it to start. I charge the case, insert the card wad and get it to the proper depth, then invert the case and press it into the sheet of grease to cut a cookie. When I turn the case up to insert the over-wad the grease is trying to come out of the case. I figure the seal is air tight and air pressure is pushing the cookie out.

[rfd]

i'm a newbie to the ppb, too. i prefer wrapping dry, just lots easier and the paper shreds to confetti when exiting the muzzle. i don't want to use a grease cookie, i want as much powder in the case as possible (.45-70) and get in at least 80 grains of swiss 1-1/2 with a deep bullet seat and 83 grains with a 1/8" seat. a bit more recoil than 65 to 68 grains, but man do those slicks fly fast and straight!

randy wright's ppb book is excellent, even though it's 90% about grease cookie loads. but i think he mentions, or was it brentd?, to prick the edge (next to the case mouth wall) of the gc to allow trap air to be released which allows the cookie to seat firm on the over powder wad card. the over cookie cars is 'sposed to seal up that prick hole.

[Lead pot]

If your wiping between shots you don't really need a lube wad. Just add a second wad if your using a .030" over the powder.
If you cut the lube wad with the case just stick a pearl head stick pin or straighten a paper clip and stick it through the lube wad this will let the air out so it stays down.

[Lead pot]

This is how I cut my patches.
I draw out a sheet and use it for a patty. Then I run it through a scanner and make several sheets with the pattern and staple one sheet with the pattern to 15 blank sheets and put a staple through every strip to hold them in place when I cut it. Then I use the roller cutter and cut 16 sheets at once. This takes me less then a hour to cut over 300 patches.

https://c8.staticflickr.com/8/7206/6881853303_287666692a_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/bu8iea)IMG_0538 (https://flic.kr/p/bu8iea) by Kurt (https://www.flickr.com/photos/leadpot/), on Flickr

[Toymaker]

I finally had the opportunity to disassemble my test round. It sat around for 4 days which would be less than normal because I try to keep one or two boxes ahead of need for competitions. The lube definitely saturated the wads above and below and contaminated the powder charge. I had cut the wads from a 0.03" sheet of fiber/rubber gasket material and they were soaked through. I suspected this would happen because it is designed to absorb oil and swell to seal the joint.
I rebuilt the cartridge using commercial veggie/fiber wads to see if that will do any better. Because I would have the time to wipe or blow between shots I know I don't need the lube cookie but I want to test a "full deck" before I start simplifying. Can always use that space for a little more powder. I was pleased with two things 1) As suggested, pricking the lube cookie did let the air our and the cookie didn't try to ooze out, and 2) As I put things together I checked measurements against the first test round. The final OAL was within 0.006" so I'm feeling pretty good about the process and my technique.

[country gent]

My wad cutter for the 45 cal cuts a wad around .460-.465 dia this depends on material being cut some what. but the larger dia gives a better seal witht the case. I have used a playing card wad also to help seal things up. They are roughly .020 thick and plastic coated. My wad seater is hand operated and has a .060 spring loaded pin in it to poke the hole in the grease cookie and dosnt affect other wads when seating them. Maybe a thicker base wad would seal and not allow lube to pass thru as easily.

[Toymaker]

The Walters Veggie Fibre wads @ 0.03" seemed to do the trick. They did not absorb the lube and contaminate the powder. Neither did the lube leak around them.

Shooting yesterday had mixed results. My range maximum is only 100 yards :( and the position I was in had clogged holders at 100 so I had to set my frame at 75 yards. :( I measured everything, cases were selected for 2.126" length, grease cookie (0.08175"), 2 wads (0.03125" each), seating depth (0.20") to figure the volume of powder (Olde Eynsford 2F). The powder was trickled through a 24" drop tube and the depth checked with an indicator gauge. Every load was checked. NO additional compression was added. OAL on each cartridge was within 0.006". The powder charge weighed 47.9 grains, but volume was what was important. Two blanks were fired, wiping between each. Rounds 1 - 5 were fired, wiping between each shot. Elevation and windage were adjusted slightly and rounds 6 - 10 were fired. Results were not great, but they were better than they have been. That's an 8" black bull - I modify the X and 10 ring for sighting.
180384
Fragments of the paper patches were found, but none of the wads. Someone at the range told me that the patches were cut by the rifling (obvious) and this was bad. Further they said the leading edge of the rifling was likely the culprit and I wouldn't get any accuracy until that edge was reamed slightly so the edges were relieved. The information I have says this isn't bad unless there is leading. Cleaning showed no indication of leading. The barrel is being treated for leading again this morning and will be cleaned after lunch.
180385 What say you?

My plan now is to increase the powder charge by 5 grains, determine the volume and load up 10 more cartridges with enough compression to give me my OAL.

[dave roelle]

The higher charge weight and resulting harder "bump up" will be a positive for improving fired bullet fit and so accuracy.

Ask your range guy how many PP rounds he's put down range :)

Keep on having fun

Dave

[country gent]

My patches outer wrap is cut and the inner wrap is heavily engraved. It shows the lands markings full length. From all ive read and seen you want the patch to cut as it aids the release of the bullet when fired. I recover most of my patches withing 5' of the muzzle normally. I havent ever recovered a wad either. They may lay flat and become a" frisbee" and go about anywhere. I ussually recover the outer wrap in strips and the under in the wrap with the fold over base still attached. If possible when testing chronograph the loads as you work up. Watch extreme spreads and or standard deviation, as you get to the sweet spot on charge and compression these go down and accuraacy up. I have some loads that are almost single digit ES consistantly. I normally work up in 3 grn increments and then test again at low and high and middle of the best performing 2 loads. IE 51 and 54 to start were 2 best then retest with 51,52.5, and 54. I chronograph all of these to see where they are running at and the ES and SD numbers.Thios ussually finds a welbalanced accurate load pretty quickly. Every thing Ive read and seen says that outer wrap should be cut and shreads or confetti and under intact with the engraving markings showing. Patches shouldnt be burnt or seriously discolored. You want them to release right at th muzzle or as close as possible to it. A patch that stays on the bullet really messes with accuracy

[Toymaker]

Wooo Hooo!!! Yesterday's test kept everything exactly the same except I boosted the powder charge by 3 grains. Of course that increased the compression to keep the OAL the same. I was also able to shoot these through the chrony. They averaged 1,373 fps with a standard deviation of 8. This batch definitely gave me a group. Next step is to increase the powder charge by another 3 grains.

[rfd]

congrats - awesome! love it when it the improvements happen!

[country gent]

Watching those numbers chronographing gives a good idea when the load is at optimum for compression and pressures. Extreme Spread and standard deviation can tell you alot at times. Glad to hear of your success. Sounds like your getting into the right pressure range to nump up the bullet.

[rfd]

yer right on about using a chrony for load development, wayne. i need to get me a labradar and quit messing with the opticals!

[country gent]

I hate to say it but after years of using diffrent chronographs for load development it greatly simplifies the process. The LabRadar just makes it so darned easy to do it. I have used an ohler, Pact, and now the labradar units. The Pact profesional was sent back once for program up-grades even. Wacthing velocites, extreme spreads and standard deviations can really point you in the right direction on load development. They are a very usefull tool and offer other options as well. Knowing velocity ( even better at 2 distances) allows you to calculate trajectory tables for the given load. WIth 2 velocites on a shot BCs can be calculated for a given bullet, with cast a big plus since most cast bullets dont have them available.

[Toymaker]

Picked up a Lyman #55 Black Powder Measure. The drop tube on the powder measure is ¾”. When I dropped a charge it appeared, to me, to fill the case more than I expected.

I weighted the charge and it was correct. I dropped another charge and it filled the case to the same point.

The case is 2.1255” long. The charge is within 0.059” of the lip after inserting the 0.03 card wad.


I dropped a measure into the scale pan, being very careful not to lose any. The weight was what expected.

Then I trickled the powder down my home-made ½” drop tube. The charge was lower in the case.

The case is 2.1250” long. The case is within 0.153 of the lip after inserting the 0.03” card wad.


The charges will be compressed, with the compression die, to the same depth as in the previous two tests to keep the OAL the same.


CONSISTENCY is the key. My previous two tests used the home-made drop tube.
By compressing to the same depth as before, the amount of measured compression is going to be greater.

BUT the compression should be the same, just more of it was provided by using the ½” drop tube.

And I’ve got more kinks than a twisty tie…………………. HELP.

Is my previous testing screwed?
Should I drop my charges into the scale pan and trickle them through my home-made drop tube?
Am I wondering about nothing and should just go ahead?

[rfd]

i think we each will find what works best for building cartridges. i've given up on powder measures and just scoop into a digital scale that does +/- .02 grains, then drop tube 29" into the case, add wad(s), compress with a BACO die in a lyman M body, ready to accept the pushed in ppg or gg bullet. messing with the powder charge weight, powder compression amount and bullet seat depth are still all part of the game.

[country gent]

On drop tubes length is the bigger variable rather than dia. My drop tube is 3' long 1/2" od X 3/8" id aluminum seamless tubing. The end for the case is simply a coned end with tapered hole from .400 at the top down to .300 at the bottom of the hole with the coned end to center the case. Te top is a modified RCBS plastic funnel. The hole was made smaller with JB weld epoxy to provide a trickle effect when pouring slowly into it. I made a 24" one to see the diffrence, Same tubing same ends and got less "stacking" compression from the shorter tube. I use the 3" tube now. The longer tube gives more drop or freefall to the powder and packs it into the case better. If the drop tube is mounted on the measure the powder drop may not be the slow trickle your using when pouring your home made tube. It may be more of a "slug" of powder going down the tube, not the long strung out string that allows powder granuales to bounce and find the best fit in the case.

[rfd]

i agree on how the powder gets down the drop tube, i "jiggle trickle" by holding the brass pan in one hand and tapping it with a finger of t'other hand. this gives more uniformity to the drop in terms of how much powder leaves the pan at any one jiggle, and the space of time it takes for the next jiggle.

there are so many factors involved in cartridge loading that all need to be done well, not just one or a few. no small task for the impatient or ADD types!

[Toymaker]

Test 3 is going to be repeated. Because I changed the procedure I don't trust the results. I used the powder measure to drop charges but into the scale pan not a case. I checked the weights, just to be sure, then I trickled them down my home-made drop tube. They definitely settled more than previously which means they were compressed less with the compression die. There's a good chance it will rain on Tuesday so I may not be able to test. At least its still warm enough not to snow.

[country gent]

With a given charge of powder ( volumne) the drop tube does lower its level when trickled into case and the compression die finishes the compression to whats needed. The amount of compression is the same in the end just being done in 2 steps. I find the drop tube compresses the bottom half of the charge more than the top half. The compression die finishes this compression and it ends up pretty consistant through out the charge.

[Toymaker]

Country Gent, so "compression" to you is the amount of settling you get from trickling the charge into the case plus the amount of compacting from the compression die?

I've an idea how that would be done, it's a lot of steps.

To me the height of the powder column after trickling is the starting point and "compression" is the amount of compacting from there by the compression die.

[rfd]

for me, the drop tube compacts, and the plug compresses. two different processes and each with different results. i do both.

[country gent]

Settling, stacking, or compressing with the drop tube happens wasnt sure what to call it above. But a charge dropped thru a drop tube sets lower in that case than one dropped threw just a funnel. A slow trickle thru the drop tubes increases this even more. With the slow trickle thru my 3' tube if I pour it back out of case I ussually have to dig out the last little bit. When compressed with the compression die it all has to be dug out. Ounce I find the charge I make note of the distance from case mouth to the wad stack and maintain that. I only measure the actual compression with the dropped tubed charge. This assunes the drop tubed charge is a constant.

[Don McDowell]

Try not to overthink the compression/drop tube thing. If drop tubing the charge gets enough of a charge to satisfy bullet seating depth with the accuracy and velocity needed then all is well. If drop tubing doesn't get you there then you need to further compress the powder with some sort of tool. It's not a complicated thing.

[Lead pot]

I pretty much have quit using a drop tube. I use a short plastic funnel that has about a 4 or 5" tube on it and I slowly pour the powder from the pan filling the case. Then I tap the powder pan on the edge of the funnel and compress the depth I need. Tat short drop with the tapping on the funnel rim settles the powder in the case just as far as when I use the 36" or the 24" tube.
But think for a minute, why worry about the tube? your compressing the same amount either way anyway.
The only time I use the long drop tube is when I use the powder drop and the loading block is on the floor. I lift and drop the handle and move the tube to the next case and do it again. I see no difference in accuracy at 200 yards with 3/10's grains more or less what the powder drop drops.
Now match shooting out to the 600 mtr or the 1K is a different story. I weigh the powder but still use the same short funnel.
It's a security blankey thing I think :)

[Toymaker]

Ate lunch and went to the range. I had to wait but the rain stopped long enough for me to set up the chrony and get my test rounds down range. It was a repeat of Test 3 except I used the Lyman powder measure to dump a load into the scale pan and then trickled it down my home made drop tube. First thing I noticed was the powder compacted a lot more. Compression was more in line with what I was expecting too.

Down range I got a 4-shot group the size of a half dollar with one flyer that was close but out. Now I'll increase the charge by another 3 grains and test again. If it opens up I'll drop back and test 1 grain up and down. If it gets tighter I'll go up another 3 grains.

Think I'll work on testing twice a week instead of once. I don't see any problem with that. Maybe even three times a week, but that might be pushing it. [smilie=1:

[Toymaker]

First, I thought the designations FFg, FFFg etc. were standards, indications of granulation. So I was a little surprised when I looked at some Olde Eynsford 2F and thought it was closer to 3F. So I did some volume and weight checks of Olde Eynsford 2F, regular Goex 3F and regular Goex 2F. Well, OE is larger than 3F but smaller than 2F. Not by a little bit either; by several percentage points.
Well, OE 2F at 53.6 grains volume had given me "interesting" results that I wanted to explore. But being curious I filled the powder measure with Goex 3F instead and loaded up 10 cases. BTW, that was 50 grains by weight.
Set up at 100 yards and did a sighter shot. Made a minor adjustment and knuckled down to business. Between shots I wiped with a patch damp with Moose Milk. The first three were in the 7 ring at 9, 4 and 12 o'clock. I didn't think this was going to be very informative. Then the next shot was in the 10 ring at 3 o'clock. Well, blind squirrel ............
Next I wiped between shots with the damp Moose Milk patch and then a dry patch between shots. 8 o'clock 10 ring; 9 o'clock 10 ring. Hmmmm. Then three shots touching at 11 o'clock 10 ring.
Ok. So does it take 5 shots to get dirty enough to shoot straight or is it the change in wiping procedure?

sigh....... wonder if 5744 would work...............

[country gent]

It may take 3-5 shots to get to consistant barrel conditions after cleaning or changing loads. Not so much dirty enough but to the consistant fouled condition the rifle wants to shoot well. Buffalo Arms I think has a chart on their web site that gives the grain size or range for diffrent granulations also.

[Gunlaker]

With paper patched bullets you can notice a big difference with changes to your fouling routine. I would try 2 damp patches followed by a dry one and you might notice another increase in accuracy. I never bother with less than two damp and one dry. Sometimes I use more.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

With a given charge of powder ( volumne) the drop tube does lower its level when trickled into case and the compression die finishes the compression to whats needed. The amount of compression is the same in the end just being done in 2 steps. I find the drop tube compresses the bottom half of the charge more than the top half. The compression die finishes this compression and it ends up pretty consistant through out the charge.


CG I have to disagree with this in part.

A friend and I were talking about the benefit using a droptube or not. I said that I pretty much quit using a tube except when I just want to drop a charge from the powder drop into the case with out weighing the powder. Then I use the tube with the loading block on the floor and using the 32" tube filling the cases. I just use the funnel that has a short tube and tap the side of the funnel with the powder pan. This settles the powder very well.
I'm not one to assume how things work with out first checking just what is going on. Checking compressed powder is not easy to see unless you can do it looking through the case. :) But I made some compressed powder cores with using the drop tube for one and the other with just a funnel. And some with .200"-.300" and .400" compression and looking at the compressed loads using a drop tube then compressed with the compression die the compressed powder is not consistent through out the case. Even with just .200" compression the top is a solid cake of powder.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_f8e11558-3076-4217-b3b0-ef9e702ae2ae_zpsd3qjqr5o.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/f8e11558-3076-4217-b3b0-ef9e702ae2ae_zpsd3qjqr5o.jpg.html)http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/th_IMG_0610_zps6ffaef06.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_0610_zps6ffaef06.jpg.html)http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/th_compressedpowder002_zpsc4e63eb3.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/compressedpowder002_zpsc4e63eb3.jpg.html)

[RobertS]

I am just beginning to read and learn about this stuff, but wonder if anyone has tried incrementally compressing their load in stages? Maybe pour half, compress it, and pour the other half and compress again? Maybe that's just another way to needlessly complicate the process.

[semtav]

Just get a glass or plastic tube and drop powder into it. then you might be able to see better what the powder actually does.

[Toymaker]

Took a "time out" and decided to play with a 243 Win that had proven difficult to find a load. Found a combination that shot a 5-shot 3/8" group at 100 yards. Didn't believe it so I retested and shot another 3/8" group at 100 yards.
Now back to the 38-55.... when I started I'd found a YouTube video by Pedersoli that gave two loads and pictures of their performance. One load used a custom bullet, the other used a bullet available from Buffalo Arms. When I looked it up on BA the description said it was designed specifically for the Pedersoli 1885 High Wall 38-55 so I ordered it.
Using Goex FFg, FFFg, Olde Eynsford 2F, Swiss 1 1/2 and a number of smokeless powders I have not been able to get the expected performance. With the black powders I haven't used BR primers (don't have any) but I did everything else.

I went back to the video and took a screen shot of the target, bullet, cartridge and data. I figured I could calculate the seating depth and, therefore, the compression and get all sorts of useful information. Careful measurements and a bit of math got me real close to the 2.125" case from Starline; the bullet is close to the 1.46" BACO 380 360 M4, and ........ wait a minute .... My BACO 380 360 M4 has 5 grease grooves; theirs has 4.

[Gunlaker]

Have you read the Summer 2011 article in the Black Powder Cartridge News? It has an article about the .38-55 1:12 twist Pedersoli.

The load with the Buffalo Arms bullet was:

WW brass, CCI BR2 primer, 53.0gr Swiss 1.5, Buffalo Arms 360gr money bullet, SPG, 0.030" poly wad, 1280 fps. The article doesn't mention the OAL, but implies that it's as long as possible. I have no idea why the load used the short brass when the chamber is designed for the long brass. That won't help...

From the picture, the bullet they are using is the 380360M3, and yours is the 380360M4. Seem like very similar bullets to me though.

Chris.

[Toymaker]

Chris, there is a Pedersoli video that covers the same information and was the basis for some testing. After my "break" I went back to it and duplicated their load as close as possible with what I had on hand. I used CCI Large Rifle primers instead of BR2, fiber wads and the 380360M4 bullet. The M4 has one more lube groove than the M3. I calibrated my powder measure with Swiss 1 1/2 until the charge dropped weighed 53 grains. For seating depth, compression and OAL I used the picture showing the cartridge and how many lube rings were exposed. They may have said they were using the short brass but based on the picture my cartridge with the long brass was an exact match. That cartridge was a little long and had to be mechanically cammed into the chamber. I shortened it just a tad with a little more compression and it firmly engraved on the rifling using just thumb pressure. I figured on 2 fouling shots and 5 for group. I wiped the bore with a Moose Milk patch, then a dry patch before starting and between each shot.

The first shot was 6 inches high at 11 o'clock. Shots 2 through 7 were 2 inches low at 7 o'clock and bunched up into a 4-inch group that was almost square. Yahoo!!! Velocity was 1,296 fps.
Next I switched only the powder to Goex Olde Eynsford 2F. I hadn't touched the settings on the powder measure so I dropped charges until several came out weighing the same then I loaded the same 7 cases used before. The OE charge weighed 54.4 grains. Visually you can see that OE 2F is finer than Swiss 1 1/2. (interesting). I followed the same procedure as before, wiping the bore with Moose Milk and then a dry patch before starting and then after each shot.
The first shot was 6 inches high at 12 o'clock. The 6 remaining grouped a little over 6 inches and slightly elongated vertically. Velocity was 1344 fps. The spread and standard deviation was better with OE than Swiss. It was a windy day and I won't swear my target backer wasn't flapping back and forth which would give me a vertically aligned string. BUT important to me was the velocity.

Now I want to reduce the OE charge and move the velocity to 1280 fps.

[Gunlaker]

Good stuff! I shoot OE 1.5 in addition to Swiss 1.5. My .45 cal PP loads are a little faster with OE than with Swiss, although I still use Swiss 1.5 in that rifle. I haven't used OE in a .38, but use it in my .40-65. It is good stuff. I think it's the only powder that's in the ballpark with Swiss.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

OE and Swiss are the same screen sizes, so yes your OE 2f is finer than the Swiss 1.5
Rp 91/2 primers seem to be the go to primer with OE.
Your vertical could be coming from not running enough patches between shots.

[country gent]

Ive been using the rem 9 1/2 primers with swiss and Olde Ensford both with good results.

[semtav]

Rp 91/2 primers seem to be the go to primer with OE.



Ive been using the rem 9 1/2 primers with swiss and Olde Ensford both with good results.

Interesting, I've never found a BP load that was accurate with Remington Primers. May have to try them on the OE sometime.

[Lead pot]

I don't get anything I can call accuracy from Rem primers. I shot up a brick of 2-1/2 and one of 9-1/2 with OE and KIK and the vertical with a bunch of different ladder loads and granulations at times would not hold black on a SR target at 200. Used them in the .44-75, .44-90 St. .44-90 BN and the .45-90

[Chill Wills]

You know - it is funny with this BPCR stuff.
You ask ten people and you get ten different answers.

I've been using Rem 2-1/2 for my match loads unless the old rifle won't shoot them with out piercing them. The old large firing pins pop them. The 2-1/2 has a good track record winning for me.
For the old rifles I substitute CCI large rifle Match. They are almost as good.

About the accuracy requirement.
As Brent said, testing and just plain trigger time is a large help all on it's own so if you enjoy it - shoot a lot!
As for me - some days the best rifle and ammo - even well proven, shoots low scores.

This was yesterday in the silhouette match here. The ground was frozen and sticks were not right. Lots of high winds above 20MPH. Bad shadows from the winter sun. I was shooting 4-5 moa high lows.

Excuses. Yes.

The rifle and ammo shoot fine but if I did not know it because I was kinda new to game, I would have thought it was back to drawing board!

As it was - it was just a winter day at the match and happy to get out and play. We take the good with the bad.
BTW - scores were low for all.

[Gunlaker]

I burned through a brick of Rem pistol primers in my .40-65 and I think they worked very well. I switched to Fed LP Match as they are much easier for me to get here.

Here is a nine shot, 200m prone target shot with them. It's just about a minute of angle and I think the first ( and one of the last ) times I've ever done that. :-)

187309

Edit: I should add, this was not with OE powder, but with Goex Express FFFg, still the best 200m load for this rifle.

Chris.