Can a barrel be TOO smooth?

[tomme boy]

I have a TC inline that has a stainless barrel. It shoots fairly well, unless you try to shoot round balls. I have tried to use different thicknesses of patches to help load the round balls. I keep trying to find thinner and thinner patches but none have worked very well. What happens is they are extremely hard to load the more you shoot.

I use TC bore butter for patch lube and also use a lubed wool felt over powder wad between the powder and patched ball. It is not like it is not getting any lube. I have also tried it without the wad. But I also have a wet patch over my jag to seat the ball. So it is getting wiped also.

It is just a bear to load! TC has that really shallow rifling and bore contact seems really high. Thats why they recommend a 0.495" ball and ???? patch. But I am using a 0.490" ball and the patch I am using slips my mind right now.

Anyone else have problems with SS and round balls?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Its not the barrel smoothness but the twist. Most likely you are trying to shoot it in a twist of 1:28 or possibly tc's slightly slower twist of 1:32.

[rodwha]

Wait, it's not a smooth bore?

Just kidding... I've read (not too many) that find the faster twists will shoot a PRB with much lighter charges. I'm not sure to what distances they've found it works though.

[curator]

tomme boy:
A T/C inline .50 caliber can be made to shoot round ball at moderate velocities without too much experimenting. What powder are you using? Real black (should be FFFg for light loads) will require a wipe with a slightly damp patch between shots to keep the fouling from making subsequent reloads increasingly difficult. A .495 ball and .015" canvas patch will work as will a .490 ball and .020 patch. Use the least amount of lube possible as more is not better. Spit is one of the best! A load of 40 to 50 grains of FFFg black powder will give you about 1250-1400 fps and excellent accuracy assuming your components and loading technique are uniform. If you are using all store-bought components, don't expect match-grade accuracy. "I don't know why these didn't work better when the advertisement spoke so highly of them." My T/C Encore 209/50 and CVA Wolf will shoot under two inch , 5-shot groups at 100 yards with the above recommended load. I cast my own balls and make my own patches because commercial stuff is unreliable.

[Outpost75]

In a .50 cal. I hunt with patched round ball of tight enough fit thatI must start with mallet and short starter, 120 grains of Swiss 1-1/2Fg for 2000 fps in 72" twist. Use 100 grains in 66" twist, 80 grains i 48" twist.

[tomme boy]

It shoots good, don't get me wrong. It is just a bear to load. I am using real black 3f at 70gr measured. I am shooting a 1"-1.25" group at 50 yds. The patches are marked 0.018" and the thinner ones are 0.015" And I am wiping the bore as I seat the ball so the build up should not be too bad. This is how I load the Maxi-balls and LEE REALS.

I tried loading a few sabots to see how they loaded and they were fine???? I don't get it? Maybe find some 0.012 cloth

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

209 primers make the powder a lot dirtier. They just seem to bake the powder in the bore causing crud build up. The maxis are a lot more forgiving in this department as they'll fatten up once the powder sets off and seal the bore.

[runfiverun]

and yes a barrel can be too smooth.
anything more than 6-800 grit finish is too much.
I remember story's of guys roughing their barrels back up back in the day.

[Omnivore]

If you can get a looser fit patched ball to shoot well, then more power to you, but it is fairly common to wipe between shots. My hunting load is a very tight fit patched ball, and if I don't swab, a second loading is possible with difficulty, bit a third load is murder. Since I've never fired more than two shots on a hunt, it works very well for me. YMMV.

A sabot or a Minie can be made to load more easily in a fouled bore and still shoot well because they have an expanding base.

In my experiments in BP pistol shooting, I've found that it takes way more lube than you'd typically find even in a lubed wad, or a bullet with a relatively large grease groove, to keep the bore fouling soft enough to just load and shoot and load and shoot and never be concerned about hard loading with a tight fit projectile. No mere patch will hold even as much lube as a lubed wad.

In theory then, if I wanted to keep my tight patched ball load shooting, over and over and over, without any swabbing between shots, then I could stick a big ol' honkin' lube pill over the powder, under the ball. Ah, but now the fouling/lube mix that's all nice and soft, which allows me to clean my revolver or cartridge rifle bore with ease, often having it look clean after one swipe with a dry patch, will get pushed down into the breech with the next load, and my rifle is probably not going like it. I'd be pouring the powder over soft goo, and then cramming more of the soft goo down onto the powder each time. It might work for a while, but my existing load works well enough that I haven't been motivated to try to improve on it.

Additionally, while this is common knowledge among BPCR shooters, it doesn't seem to cross over to muzzleloader shooters; The blow tube is commonly used to soften fouling.

Elmer Keith and others have extolled the benefits of blowing down the bore and over the chambers of a BP revolver after every cylinder full has been fired. I do it all the time, and you can feel the gun loosen up in seconds in the process. This may be of little use to muzzleloaders, who would need a tube long enough to reach the breech from the muzzle, but understanding the effect of humidity on powder fouling might help clear up a mystery or two.

On the advice of old curmudgeon muzzleloader shooters and skallywags, who've shot black powder longer than I've been alive, I've taken to running one spit patch down the bore between shots instead, wet enough to soften the fouling, and remove most of it. That practice is hundreds of years old. It's also one very good reason to have the old patch box in the buttstock, and so I added one to my Lyman fifty cal. Shoot, grab a clean patch from the patch box and stick it your mouth. Suck on it a bit while you pull the ram rod, swab using the spit patch (no need to get the patch all sopping wet; just uniformly moist) and you're ready to load the next shot.

There is one very serious drawback to the centuries-old, tried and true spit patch method though; the accessory manufacturers and peddlers can't sell you any modern, high tech lube/solvents, and so they don't get any of your money.

[M-Tecs]

I remember story's of guys roughing their barrels back up back in the day.

I have read the same. The belief during the mid 1800'2 was that the patches smoothed the bore too the point it wouldn't shoot as well.

[tomme boy]

I am using a wet patch to swab to barrel. The barrel is like a mirror. Not like the corn cob CVA/traditions or Knight rifles.

This is just for playing. I just don't like to beat the round down the barrel. Everytime I have to beat it down, I have no idea where the ball or sabot or conical will go.

[Omnivore]

No ones saying anything about beating the ball down. Let's stay on topic. It is fairly common that, once someone gives the answer, the original question or problem will be altered, so as to keep any solution just out of reach. Stop it.

Some people use a mallet as a starter whether they really need it or not, but understand that when I say "tight patched ball" I mean that once started, it's a firm push.

If at first none of the modern methods do succeed, try the well proven methods.

The idea that you should be able to shoot over and over and over without swabbing is the problem here. Generally you should not expect that.

[dondiego]

Try using a 0.480 ball.

[waksupi]

Get rid of the Bore Butter. The beeswax in it builds up in the bore, making it harder and harder to load.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

The idea that you should be able to shoot over and over and over without swabbing is the problem here. Generally you should not expect that.

Exactly. If you want shoot all day easy reloading, you'll need to switch to a water based lube that actually washes the fouling away as you load the ball. Greases just smear, they don't "melt" the fouling away while reloading.

[mooman76]

Tight twists need a tight patch/ball combo to shoot well or it doesn't folow the twist. I'm not saying you have to use a mallet but only trial and error will tell you what works. It would be allot easier to accomplish with a slower twist gun. Water based lube is good advice but if you are hunting, it may dry out before you get to shoot it.

[tomme boy]

Get rid of the Bore Butter. The beeswax in it builds up in the bore, making it harder and harder to load.
What do you recommend? That is all I have ever used.

I use it all the time on the conical also. That is where I would really like to replace it.

[tomme boy]

No ones saying anything about beating the ball down. Let's stay on topic. It is fairly common that, once someone gives the answer, the original question or problem will be altered, so as to keep any solution just out of reach. Stop it.

Some people use a mallet as a starter whether they really need it or not, but understand that when I say "tight patched ball" I mean that once started, it's a firm push.

If at first none of the modern methods do succeed, try the well proven methods.

The idea that you should be able to shoot over and over and over without swabbing is the problem here. Generally you should not expect that.
I am not talking about starting the ball. I'm talking about the barrel is so smooth that it actually creates more friction than is necessary . thus making it harder to load. I have two other guns that are carbon barrels and they don't do this. thus the ? about SS barrels.

And it only does this with a patched round ball. It shoots sabot very well. And conicals very well until about round 10 and then the barrel has to be completely cleaned at home.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

there is no beeswax in bore butter, paraffin wax and other ****.

[rfd]

the stainless barrel should not be an issue. play with the patch thickness = go thinner for starters. i trial a new gun with .010, .012, .015, .018, and see what works the best. lots also depends on the bore and groove diameters. the powder brand and granularity also play a role. my patch strips are lubed with 'original lehigh valley patch lube' or 'gato feo' bpcr lube (that's been rubbed into the patching and then heat gunned into the cloth weave - this works well for me, with easy loading and no tube fouling control for many shots). i do NOT like, nor need, tightly patched balls that require a hammer to bang down to the powder charge. i try to emulate our nation's colonial forefathers with regards to loading flintlocks. ramming the patched ball down should be easy pushes, followed by whatever patched ball seating works best for you, and the resulting accuracy should be good.

[johnson1942]

make a range rod that is stout and has a big ball or handhold on the end. use a small rubber mallet to just start the patch and when the ball is just barely under the muzzle, cut the patch off at the muzzle with a straight razor. use the rubber mallet to tap the starter down as far as it goes. then use the stout ramrod with a good hand hold to push onto the powder. use pure cotton denim washed and when dry ironed flat for patches. as to lube, let the experts in that area here tell you what to use. as to the bore being too smooth, this is my experience. i have lapped bores with a good rotateing ram rod with a bore guide on it useing red jewlers polish 5000 strokes. the barrel got too hot to touch. i took no metal off and man was it polished. loaded easier and shot with perfect accuracy. from what i under stand the last 3 inches at the muzzle should not be polished and my barrels are not as the set up i use doesnt allow for that. you must wipe between shots and i never like to disagree with some one here but i have never found that 209 primers make a barrel harder to clean. i only use real black and 209 powder. they are easier to clean with the 209 primers. i cant speak for other kinds of powder. also if your gun is a real real high quality one and a keeper take the barrel off and send it to cryo plus and have it cryo treated. it will load easier then also as the cryo process really slicks up a barrel. my sons 270 shot 100 ft per second faster after the cryo process with the same hand load. also on the two inlines i have,they had that easy loading thing on the muzzle for sabots. the cut out lands for about a 1/2 inch. i cut the barrel off behind that area and recrowned them better that factory. now they will shoot not only sabots but paperpatch and round balls if i so chose. with a muzzle like that some rifles only shoot sabots and nothing else. it depends how well the machine job was done. for the load behind the round ball in a fast twist start a 50 grains and work up untill accuracy goes bad. 70 may be the best but each gun and how you load it is different. again the pure cotton denim is a very popular good patching material but i have since switched to tight weave medium weight pure linen that i got off the internet at a linen web site. they hold together so well you could collect them and relube and use over if you desired.

[waksupi]

What do you recommend? That is all I have ever used.

I use it all the time on the conical also. That is where I would really like to replace it.


Can't help you with conicals,but for PRB, I've used Moose Milk for probably twenty years, after testing many different lubes one summer. For hunting purposes, pre-lube the patch, let it dry for the hunting load. Spit on the patches for follow up when hunting.