A load I never see any more?

[Blackwater]

Some years back, a regular and oft recommended load for .357 was 8 gr. Unique with most any J or cast 158 gr. bullet. It was as common as dirt to see it recommended, and I and friends shot thousands and thousands of them. I quit taking the glossy mags long ago now, and haven't kept up with new developments because of that. So can anyone tell me why I never see Unique in any of the manuals any more, except the really old ones I used way back when? What have I missed?

Got my Security Six slicked up and want to take it out for a spin, and that's one of the loads I want to try in it. I see in Lyman 47th that they recommend 7 gr. of BULLSEYE but nothing with Unique! They also show only 7.5 gr. of Herco with 158's, which is notably slower than Unique in all uses I've seen. If 7 gr. Bullseye is OK, why would 8 gr. Unique NOT be????? This doesn't make sense to me. Can anyone help me here? Has piezo pressure testing revealed it has some sort of dangerous secondary pressure spike, as I've read about with some other loads? What gives? Seriously, I need some help here, and thanks for any explanation/info you can provide.

[DougGuy]

Straight from Alliant's site:

357 Magnum

158gr Speer LSWC 1.57" COA, CCI 500, 6.0gr Unique, 1034fps

158gr Speer GDHP 1.575" COA, CCI 500, 7.7gr Unique, 1040fps

The only load data they list for 8.0gr Unique is with a 140gr Speer UCHP at 1.6" COA for 1185fps.

[AZ Pete]

Straight from Alliant's site:

357 Magnum

158gr Speer LSWC 1.57" COA, CCI 500, 6.0gr Unique, 1034fps

158gr Speer GDHP 1.575" COA, CCI 500, 7.7gr Unique, 1040fps

The only load data they list for 8.0gr Unique is with a 140gr Speer UCHP at 1.6" COA for 1185fps.

Kind of looks like using over 6g is a waste of powder.


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[telebasher]

I used to have a 4-5/8 Ruger Blackhawk that just loved 9 gr Unique over a 125 gr Hornady or Sierra bullet. Was prariedog accurate well past 100 yds if I had a rest and the wind cooperated. Sold that gun to a friend and to this day he won't sell it back for twice what he paid me for it !!

[RedHawk357Mag]

It's in the older books. One says 1250fps and the other says 1350. No personal experience with it though. Neither of those were taken from the "Book of Spells" although pretty sure it's in there as well.

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[Artful]

One thing is that most of the newer reloaders I've talked too don't like that "dirty" old unique.

[DougGuy]

It's not dirty "old" Unique anymore, the newer Unique burns cleaner from what I read, smokes a lot less in my present experience over the Unique I used 30yrs ago.

[rond]

I use 7.5 grains of Unique with the 158 RNFP, for a little more power I use H 110.

[leadman]

With all the new powders that have been released in the last few years the older powders are getting less attention. The powder and bullet companies have to make a choice of what to publish. A call will usually get you data for the older powders, as well as the latest powders.

[Scharfschuetze]

I've always liked to shoot my 357s with a 150 to 158 grain boolit right at 1,000 fps for plinking and small game hunting. That Unique load was perfect for that.

During the great powder shortage a few years ago, I ran out of Unique. I substituted 231 and found that powder to also produce good results in achieving my goal of 1,000 fps. I might add though, that with 231, muzzle flash was much more noticeable than with Unique.

[james nicholson]

I love Unique, its not nearly as dirty if you keep the pressure up. I typically use 7.5 gr in my Dan Wesson pistol with the 4" barrel, switch to H110 for the 10" barrel. But if you really want to see something awesome fire a full house load of H110 thru the 2" barrel at dusk.

[WebMonkey]

I'm using 8gn unique under the lee 158 rf in a Blackhawk convertible 6.5"
came up from 6.8gn and ended up with 1235fps average.

i'll use it for deer this season.

[mdi]

The only time Unique burned "dirty" for me was when a faster powder would do a better job (light Unique loads). But I don't go shooting in my white tux, nor wear my white kidskin gloves. The indoor ranges I went to all had restrooms with soap and water and when I go up in the hills I take water and rags/paper towels with me. Besides I have rags in my shooting bag so if I'm afraid someone will think I'm a slob, I can wipe some of the soot off my guns. I clean my gins when I get home from shooting and I've never had a gun fail due to being "dirty"...[smilie=l:

[John Boy]

158-160 grain JHP or JSP (Jacketed Hollow or Soft Point)
Unique 7.7 gr. 1,040
Unique 7.8 gr. 1,280 max

[Blackwater]

As to Unique burning "dirty," ANY powder will burn dirty when it's used at a pressure level below its optimum burn pressure. Unique, in warmish to max. loads always was fairly clean burning for me. I was just wondering if I'd missed some reason why it no longer seems to be in favor. I and friends shot thousands of that load with narry a problem, and I'm sure millions of that load have been shot in various guns, and I've never heard one problem from so doing.

The only bad part of no longer getting the glossy mags is that I DO sometimes miss some "new info" that's published. And knowing piezo pressure barrels reveal a lot more about a load's pressure curve, I just had to ask, since that has been aleged (no proof I know of) to cause "problems" with loads. Maybe I need to subscribe to at least one, other than the American Rifleman? I just HATE reading "evals" by what is now effectively "company salesmen." And the lawyer induced PC evals of loads and data just aren't very helpful. It seems writers assume you're an irresponsible first time reloader, and I realize the necessity of that, but I just don't want to pay for those kinds of reviews and evals.

I've used more Unique, probably, than any other powder. It was long my go-to powder for everyday .357's and .38's, and for the .45 ACP, and any other calibers, it was my first powder to try. It's so predictable, fills the case well, easily ignited, and generally accurate, that it simply fulfilled most of my wants and needs, and it was cheaper than H110/296 or 2400 for heavy loads. It was easy to find, too, which was important way back when. It's an old friend, and there are many new powders, but I don't know of a single one that's as versatile and useful and consistent as Unique. Wouldn't be nice to spurn an olf friend, would it? Especially if it's used in a pressure range where it burns pretty clean?

[gwpercle]

Unique is just soooo old and out of fashion.
It's DIRTY , it can't be measured , it has grey hair and whiskers....retire it !
With all those new powders on the market the old stand by's just get left out ....forgotten.

My 1971 Ruger Blackhawk 357 magnum would put 6 shots into a group you cover with a quarter , the load : 7.5 grains of Unique under a Lyman #358156 155 gr. SWC GC. It was the first load I fired from it 45 years ago and I haven't found one that beats it yet.
I loaded for many years with nothing but cast boolits and Unique in several handguns and rifles .

I keep my older manuals around just to have data on the older powders that have fallen out of favor ...if something works , it works !
Gary

[Frank V]

He he he all you guys that don't like Unique can send me your old dirty Unique, I've got good uses for it!
I'll use it any day, it's so old because IT WORKS & it has for years.
Yes there are some newer powders on the market that some say are better.
Still I'll use Unique as long as I can get it.
I don't use it in the .357, I use (horrors, shudder, cringe,) 2400 for most loads in the .357.
Unique is great in the .38 Special though!

[dragon813gt]

Jack of all trades, master of none ;)

[tmc-okc]

I believe Charles said something to the effect that manufactures produce stuff to sell. Some stuff we really don't need but they want to sell. So don't advertise Unique and publish loads for other powders they really want to sell.

Just a thought.

Ron H

[Jack Stanley]

May Unique soldier on for another hundred years ........................


Jack

[Guesser]

Lyman Handbook #49 lists the Unique max at 8.3 under a 158 gr. Jacketed bullet for hand gun. No change over the years from about 1970 that I can see.

[nicholst55]

Unique, Bullseye; two of my favorite flavors of 'flaming dirt!'

[Bullwolf]

Some years back, a regular and oft recommended load for .357 was 8 gr. Unique with most any J or cast 158 gr. bullet. It was as common as dirt to see it recommended, and I and friends shot thousands and thousands of them.

Can anyone help me here? Has piezo pressure testing revealed it has some sort of dangerous secondary pressure spike, as I've read about with some other loads? What gives? Seriously, I need some help here, and thanks for any explanation/info you can provide.

Here's some information from an older 2014 Cast Boolits thread.

Outpost75 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?30839-Outpost75) Has an excellent answer.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?231732-357-Unique


With heavier.357 loads with Unique, when fired in revolvers, you will get accelerated forcing cone erosion. This is the reason Alliant dropped its maximum charges, it wasn't for pressure. I can tell you from personal experience, that 1000 rounds of 8 grains of Unique with Remington lead 158-gr. SWCs in R-P cases with Remington 5-1/2 primers at 1.58" OAL will erode the forcing cone on a Colt Python past the No-Go on the Browell's forcing cone gage, necessitating an EXPENSIVE factory repair!

In the past I have also loaded these heavier charge weights of Unique. (following data from the manuals of the time) While I did not see any pressure signs or have any problems, in most cases I was NOT shooting the loads in revolvers. I've made a note of the information that Outpost75 provided above, and will not likely be loading 8 grains of Unique for any of my revolvers in the future.

I think the modern reduced 357 Magnum Unique Loads (compared to some older data) that we see today are because good accuracy is often found with lower charge weights of Unique. When testing out a load, as soon as decent accuracy and performance are found, the testers probably just stop there.



The current online guide from Alliant shows 6.0 grain as a max load with the 158gr SWC and Unique.That load has been around since at least Speer #10. The reason it is 6 grains is that's where best accuracy and least leading occurred with the swaged Speer SWC bullet. The old Hercules and later Alliant loads show a max of 6.8 Unique with a 158LSWC. I've used up to 8 grains with good results. I don't recommend this load, just passing along my experience.


- Bullwolf

[Tenbender]

Try this
\
http://alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?type=1&powderid=3&cartridge=28

[runfiverun]

6grs is a good load I know a few guy's that use it.
I use 7grs of herco for pretty much the same reason, it's enough without going too far for what it is.

[michael.birdsley]

Jack of all trades, master of none ;)

That's kind of how I view it. I'm only a year into reloading but, it seems like i like its good for a lot of things. But, not great at it. I run bullseye for my 9mm plinking loads and Unique for my hornady 124 grn XTP's. As a beginner I didn't know what to get so I bought both of those as it showed for a lot loading in pistol and cast bullets. I got three lbs squirreled away of each.


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[Budzilla 19]

"Flaming dirt!!!!!!"" Hahaha!! You guys kill me sometimes! I love the flaming dirt so much, I will never be without! Seriously though, it's great powder, and yes, I clean my guns when they need it. (Ps, have an 8 lber stored away for hard times.) carry on, Unique, flaming dirt of old, may you be around forever! I surely hope so!

[Lloyd Smale]

the old skeeter skelton load.
I use 7.5 grains of Unique with the 158 RNFP, for a little more power I use H 110.

[runfiverun]

Skeeter only had the one powder measure and it was rusted together at the 7.5grs of unique mark.
I think he used that same load in his 30-30.

[Frank V]

Hah, Bullseye, Unique, 2400, will do almost anything needed doing with a six-gun. Most autos too except maybe 2400 isn't suited for most autos? Throw in Red Dot & we have a very usefull bunch.

[Bushrat]

I loaded over 15,000 357s with cast and they all shot well in my 686. During the last powder shortage a friend sold me an old 16 lb kegs of. Unique, it still shoots great in the 357 and 45acp. If you only have one squirreled away that is a good one.

[runfiverun]

it's hard to cram enough 2400 in most auto sized cases.

[Blackwater]

Bullwolf, thanks! That's exactly the kind of info I was hoping for. I shot tons of that load with the Lee 358-150-SWCHP. It was my go-to load in my 4" M-19, and I really shot a lot of that load. Tried 8.5 gr. but it didn't seem to offer anything I needed, and was just a tad less accurate, so I just shrugged and settled on 8 gr. with that bullet. I don't know how many thousands of that load I shot, but that was back when I was either loading or shooting or casting any time I had to do so. It was a ton, I know that.

Also used it a lot when I had the $$$ to buy cast or jacketed bullets, too, but usually used 2400 or 296 with the jacketed 158's. It has a lot less flash than 296, and is cheaper than the 2400 loads I used, and back then, in college, married with a kid, economy was pretty crucial if I was going to get to shoot! That old pinned and recessed M-19 was a great gun, and never showed any excessive wear that I could see, but I wasn't as sophisticated about many things back then, too, so .... I can't certify that I wasn't getting some forcing cone wear. If I was, it hadn't affected accuracy, though ... at least yet.

It's good to see ol' reliable Unique still has lots of fans. Not everything new is "better" just because it's new, and Unique is one of the most useful powders in so many calibers and applications, I can't imagine ever being without it. It may not be the BEST possible answer all the time, but it sure has shot well for me, accuracy wise, and it's given me the performance level I wanted at the same time, and I never noticed its being "dirty." But then, I clean my guns after every outing, so I may miss things others are more concerned with, I guess.

Thanks for all the input on this. At least now I'll know to check my forcing cone for any signs of wear. And now that the subject has come up, how are the newer, hot-burning powders like Lil' Gun, CFE Pistol and Tightgroup doing as to forcing cone wear???? Looks like a hotter burn would erode everything more, doesn't it? Or does it????

[Possum Lickaa]

Man... I'm ashamed of myself now. I'm a young(ish) 46 years old, and I have been loading unique in my SW 28-2 .38/357 for as long as I can remember. Imagine...a young guy like me using such an unfashionable powder! Too bad it works so good!
- But I do have to admit that I have recently gone the way of Frank V in my heavy 175 gr 357s. and use 2400 now.

[country gent]

One other thing is alot of the original load data for the older powders has been droped down in more recent years. the old Elemer Kieth load of 24.0 grns of 2400 under a 240 grn bullet is now around 22.0 grns in the manuals. unique has also had alot of its data slightly lowered. Blue dot has been droped from alot of manuals in 41mag. WHy? is it because they were to close or over pressure, produced pressure spikes, or liability reasons? I load unique in several cartridges with good results. Its an old stand by thats been around forever.

[DougGuy]

This is pretty simple if you look at it like this. What is the typical boolit weight for the caliber? If you are at that weight, all of the powders that you typically see listed with this boolit weight and caliber will work great, and any powder with a similar burn rate will work great. Any boolit with similar weight will gladly interchange, AS LONG AS case capacity is not reduced.

Ok that's more or less a guideline that holds with any pistol caliber since they invented smokeless powder.

When you start getting to either end of the range of pressure or boolit weight, both on the light end -or- the heavy for caliber end, is when you need to start paying really close attention. The lighter the boolit, the faster burning powder is most efficient. The heavier the boolit, the slower burning powder is needed to prevent over-pressure events.

Look up a powder burn rate chart and see where Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, Titegruop, Green Dot, 2400, LilGun, W296/H110 are placed in this chart. You will notice direct relationships between boolit weights and powder recommendations in every caliber.

If you reload long enough, you pretty much get a mental concept of the same relationship between boolit weight and burn rate.

If the hole in the end of the barrel is small, boolits will be light and burn rate will be fast. If the hole in the end of the barrel is big, boolits will be heavy and burn rate will be slow.

There are FEW if any exceptions to this, as it is just plain physics. The same physics that see a combat missle launched off the wing of an F-18 with a horrendously fast and short burn rate, vs. the Saturn V with it's humongous amounts of liquid fuel and a slow burn that lasts long after ignition. Same thing, not a bit of difference from that Saturn V to the Colt SAA that Elmer blew up. It's all about matching components for maximum efficiency and ultimately governed and established with SAFETY in mind.

Unique is great stuff. It is best when used in it's most efficient loadings. It will run out of headroom QUICK when tasked with pushing a heavy slow moving boolit down the bore, it burns too fast for magnum velocities in the larger calibers. As a general rule, if you look up a load or a boolit, and you DON'T see a recommendation for Unique? It is because it is not recommended for that caliber and boolit. They don't print what NOT to do in loading manuals, they just leave that information out and they tell you not to deviate from the load data that they DID include. So, if you don't SEE it? Don't DO it. Simple as that.

[rond]

the old skeeter skelton load.

Skeeter and Elmer taught me most of what I know about reloading.

[Frank V]

it's hard to cram enough 2400 in most auto sized cases.

[smilie=1: Yes it is, had to throw it in for the Six-gun ctgs though.:Fire:
It's been very useful to me in the larger revolver cases.

[Blackwater]

Some great comments about Unique, a powder I've used a lot of for many years, and with good satisfaction. No other powder is as versatile, and those of lower charge weights, and thus cheaper to shoot, often don't shoot as accurately. Unique kind'a sits "in the middle," and does a lot really well, but often not the "best" if you're looking for top velocity, accuracy, economy, etc., but it never seems to be very far from optimum in all regards. I kind'a get my lips pooched out a little when someone badmouths it, but then I think that just means more for ME, so that brings a smile back to my face. It's the most versatile powder I've ever used, and very, very useful in so many ways in so many calibers. No powder "does it all," but Unique comes closer to that than any other powder I'm familiar with, and it's been doing it for a very, very long time. If it ever disappeared, I'd kind'a feel lost a bit without it.

As to the data being missing these days, I've finally graduated to the point that I know the powder companies usually have good reasons for their actions, even when it no longer recommends a favored and much used load. So Bullwolf's comments have made it understandable now. Part of me wants to re-subscribe to the glossy mags, but every time I pick one up off the news stands, I re-confirm my lack of real need for them. I always though ads should be paid for by the manufacturer, not the consumer? A lot of things mystify me today, though.

Thanks again Bullwolf. Now, maybe I'm "up to date" on at least this aspect of Unique. It's tough being a knuckle dragger, but I guess everybody's got to be something?

[DerekP Houston]

I just tested unique in my 45 yesterday...it was the most accurate out of the 5 loads I tried. I still use it on occasion, the ball powders just metered easier.

[9.3X62AL]

Skeeter only had the one powder measure and it was rusted together at the 7.5grs of unique mark.
I think he used that same load in his 30-30.

And his 44 Special.

Like R5R, Herco gets a lot more of my mid-level magnum revolver work with castings than Unique does. Herco makes points with me for its utility in 28 gauge shotshells, so in the off-season (from bird hunting) Herco gets tasked with handgunning chores.

[9.3X62AL]

it's hard to cram enough 2400 in most auto sized cases.

True that, even in 10mm. Blue Dot & AA-7 do good work, though. Both are just a bit "faster" and are close to 100%-density with 180 and 200 grain bullets.

[cainttype]

Jack of all trades, master of none ;)

That's high praise for any powder... and a proven fact for many years.
For moderate level loads in both handguns and rifles Unique has earned it's name for a very long time.
Few powders can lay claim to the "All Around" title in cast shooting better than Unique. There is good reason for it's long-lived popularity.

[9.3X62AL]

That's high praise for any powder... and a proven fact for many years.
For moderate level loads in both handguns and rifles Unique has earned it's name for a very long time.
Few powders can lay claim to the "All Around" title in cast shooting better than Unique. There is good reason for it's long-lived popularity.

Agreed. The thing that has always confused me is the "data canyon" that largely stays uncrossed with Unique for shotshell loadings. There are beaucoup loadings for Green Dot in 12 gauge, 16 gauge (for all 17 of the folks loading and shooting that bore), and light 20 bore. Then Herco takes up for field loads in 20 gauge and both target and field 3/4 oz loadings in 28 bore. WTH happened to Unique as a data point? Data was tough to find when I was deep into shotshell refilling, so I went with the flow and got Herco, which serves well in the 28 and for heavy-field 12 gauge loadings.

[376Steyr]

One other thing is alot of the original load data for the older powders has been droped down in more recent years. the old Elemer Kieth load of 24.0 grns of 2400 under a 240 grn bullet is now around 22.0 grns in the manuals. unique has also had alot of its data slightly lowered. Blue dot has been droped from alot of manuals in 41mag. WHy? is it because they were to close or over pressure, produced pressure spikes, or liability reasons? I load unique in several cartridges with good results. Its an old stand by thats been around forever.

As far as Blue Dot and the .41 Magnum goes, a few years ago Alliant retested their old .41 Magnum/Blue Dot loads using modern pressure testing equipment and found the peak pressures produced exceeded industry standards. Everybody immediately yanked their 41/Blue Dot loads out of publication, and waited for new loads to be developed.