PP Success with 40/65

[DHDeal]

I shot 30 rounds at 300 yards today and other than the fouling being harder than when I shoot GG bullets, I'll say they are every bit as accurate as I had hoped. As I shoot from a very solid platform and use a Randolph front rest and Edgewood bag, the rifle can't be held tighter/better.

I find that I need a few less points to reach 300 than using GG too. My confetti wasn't cut in perfect strips, but they were cut. I fired 1 round for verification, made a sight change and fired 9 remaining rounds from that recipe on a 12" square piece of steel. Very slightly over MOA. The 9 shots on steel were a 3.5" group. Nice stuff there. You know when one of the bullets hit as it jumps like crazy and makes a very nice ring.

I've been considering scoping this rifle, but I don't know if an MVA will make it any better.

The rifle liked both the Brooks elliptical and the Accurate flat nose equally, surprisingly. We'll see if a 16 twist will stabilize a 1.4" bullet to 600 as soon as I get a chance.

[big bore 99]

Good shooting. PP is the way to go.

[DHDeal]

I had more trouble pushing the patch through the bore than when I shoot GG bullets. The patches were just damp with moose milk. I probably have to have them closer to wet.

Call it 2 wet and 2 dry. Same patch flipped. When this barrel gets clean, it sings, for a lack of a better word. On the second pass through with the dry patch, she sang and sent he bullets in he same place.

Glad I went on to the 300 yard line instead of starting closer. I have no idea of velocity or the other numbers.

[rfd]

wow, awesome results, congrats!!!

[BrentD]

Sounds great! I wish my .40-65 was shooting now. This spring, for sure.

[DHDeal]

I don't know if I was just imagining it, but recoil did not seem to be any different than when I shoot GG bullets. These octagonal barrelled rifles act a certain way off of the rest for me, and even though I had 7 grains more powder, it was still a gentle rifle to shoot. That really helps in accurate shooting for me not having to worry about recoil. I'm not a sissy about recoil, but I do prefer high performance smaller calibers for smokeless rifles as they are easier to shoot accurately.

I know physics have to be involved, but these PP bullets are travelling faster than the GG bullets (7 grains more powder same weight bullets) but very similar recoil. Interesting.

I am curious about the hard fouling though. Whenever I've shot Swiss 1.5F (any Swiss really) fouling has always been easy to push out. I always use damp Arsenal patches with a correctly sized delrin wiping rod. The end of the rod kept pushing through the rod. Never happened before over thousands of rounds of GG bullets. I know the lube helps keep everything softer, but this stuff was hard. I'll try wetter patches next time. Still, the fouling came out with 2 wet and 2 dry. Conditions here are extremely dry and that may be a part of it.

[rfd]

going from 65 grains of swiss 1-1/2f to 80 grains made a noticeable recoil difference in my .45-70 roller. more of a thump than push, but not at all hard to handle, just more recoil.

without grease grooves, the papered slick is followed by a glut of bp residue. i originally used a 1:10 ballistol:water wet patch, followed by a dry patch, and then a chamber swab dry patch. i recently used LVL (http://lehighvalleylube.com/index.html) patch lube instead of the ballistol mix and i think it does a better job of removing most of the fouling while softening what's left

[Bent Ramrod]

Glad it's working for you, DHD. Obviously, you will be depositing more hard fouling in the bore with more powder and no lube. I went through the X number of moist/wet and Y number of dry patches thing and found it good for only a finite number of shots, and then flyers began to occur. You may notice at Silhouette shoots that whatever the shooters are doing with their bores while shooting, when the relay is over, the rifles are mostly back of the line getting a good cleaning out. They know how fouling accumulates.

I would recommend that while you are still "in development," that you clean the bore until it is clean and dry it until it is dry before firing the next shot. Don't be shy about using wet patches, soaking wet patches, extra patches, bore pigs or whatever. If you don't like the looks of the last dry patch, or feel any resistance pushing it through, do another wet one "just for luck" and then another dry one.

Once you see how your rifle really performs with perfect bore condition, then you can work out a programmed routine (two wets and a dry, etc.,) and see how many shots you can get out of it before "outers" start showing up.

MVA makes great scopes, but I'd give a lot to have eyes that could use iron sights again. There's more "machinery" involved with the scope settings, which in my case means more things to go wrong at critical moments. If you can shoot iron sights well, I'd say stick with them as long as you can.

[rfd]

at least for me, wiping between shots adds a huge amount of time to the shot process, and when you have 45 minutes to touch off 30 rounds for score and 5 sighters, time is precious and having more of a bore cleaning task adds to the shooting anxiety. it takes me 1 good wet patch, and at least 1 dry patch, plus a chamber dry patch - but sometimes i need to use more wet patches. i'm gonna try the BACO bore pigs. if the ppb cleaning 'tween shots can't be done better/faster/easier for those 35 round matches, i'll probably hafta to back to gg bullets.

as long as i can see reasonably well with glasses, i'd never wanna mess with scopes of any kind.

[DHDeal]

I was letting my barrel tell me when to fire the next shot. I mentioned earlier about my barrel "singing" when I pushed a dry patch through a clean barrel. When I heard it, I loaded and fired the next shot. I didn't necessarily hear it with 1 wet and 1 dry. It sang when it was ready. I didn't have any unexplained flyers of any sort so I wasn't having any issues there. I just was surprised at how hard the fouling was. I guess I am just used to shooting GG bullets and all of that wonderful lube softening the fouling.

No problems really, just takes more time starting out. As soon as I get a better feel for my wet patches I suspect things will speed up. I'm under no time limits but my own, but I was slow yesterday. I won't forget what the target looks like as that, in the end, is what I'm interested in.

[country gent]

The lack of the lube is contributing to your dry hard foulig also. The grease grooves carrying lube down the bore leave a coating and fine mist of lube to help keep the fouling soft. Some use a thin grease cookie under the PP bullet to provide this lube also. A felt wad impregnated with SPG or emmerts might help here also. On my 40-65 PP loads I use a 3/32 thick spg lube cookie on top of the heavy wad and a playing card wad on top of the grease cookie with a tracing pper wad betweel playing card wad and bullets base. These shoot very well I can get 15 accurate rounds blow tubing and fouling stays soft and easy to remove. I also very lightly wipe my PP bullets with JoJoba oil when seating them. In my 45-90 with the 530 grn PP bullets a 1/8 grease cookie is used. I might try a modified emmerts lube for grrease cookies thts a little "harder" or stiffer. 60% beeswax, 30% crisco unsalted vegtable shortening, 5% canola oil, and 5% lanolin. This should be a pretty stiff lube and help to seal things better alnog with providing a more solid base to push against..

[rfd]

however, with just a card wad and no grease cookie i can get in a bunch more powder, making a 45-70 into a virtual 45-90. always a compromise of sorts. :)

[DHDeal]

I'm not considering it a problem, just not what I was used to. I'll try wetter patches before I go to a lube cookie. The only concern is have about using a lube cookie is buying something else and adding another variable to the mix. The Accurate Molds bullet I have goes in the last 1/8" snug and any fouling from a lube cookie, even if it is softened by a blow tube, may cause problems. I suspect I'll continue wiping with PP bullets until I have a better grasp.

Accuracy hasn't been a problem here and I know the conditions weren't ideal yesterday. I'm feeling pretty good about the whole process and I bet it will get better.

[DHDeal]

Shot 45 more today. With no experience with a lube cookie, I figured I would try it. Not as good as I had hoped for a first try. Call it 2.5 MOA.

I also shot some with thicker wads. To my standard .030" veggie fiber I added a .060" LDPE (.090" total). This shot best so far. A .030" and a .060" (.090" total) veggie fiber was very good, just not as good as the LDPE.

The hard fouling I was whining about was my fault. Well, getting it out being a chore was my fault. I made sure my patches were closer towards wet, and one wet, flip it, one dry, flip it, and no more fouling. The RH is still very low for South Carolina, so the conditions last weekend was not my problem. Patches that were closer to dry than wet was my problem.

Much more testing to come, but the rifle already shoots PP more accurately than GG.

[beltfed]

I am shooting my 40-65 with PP bullets over 74.5 gr Swiss 1.5/0.060LDPE wad and then a 0.011 target paper wad.
I control fouling well with two dist. water wet(squeezed out until not dripping) followed by one dry. Works for me- minute of angle or under.
and no build up of fouling.
beltfed/arnie

[ketland]

I took the .45-70 barrel off a Pedersoli Bodine rifle, and rebarreled to 40-65 specifically to shoot Paper patch with less recoil than my big sharps 45-110, and have been very pleased with the result accuracy wise, however I'm toying with the idea of re-chambering to a case with more capacity as the 40-65 does not seem to work well out at distances beyond 400 yards. Beyond 400, the bullet gets there, it just is not giving me accuracy. I have tried to compress as much powder as possible into the case, but there is only so much compression that can be obtained, and then it just seems logical to scale up.

[BrentD]

Catlin, maybe it's your bullet not your chamber or your barrel. What twist is your barrel? What length is your bullet? What weight is your bullet? And what Profile is your bullet? The answers to those questions will likely be helpful in diagnosing the problem. Also, when you say it does not shoot past 400, do the errant shots go low? If they are almost always low, it's the bullet.

[DHDeal]

Brent makes a good point about the bullet. I used his elliptical idea when I had Brooks make my mold. I don't have a range beyond 600 yards, but my Douglas 1-16" does keep the Brooks 40 cal bullet I have stable to 600 yards. I didn't beat 1.5 MOA @ 600 yet, but I'll come back to it when it gets cooler. I haven't been shooting the BPCR's much this year as I happened to pick up a Freedom Arms 83 that has kept my attention.

[Gunlaker]

Brent is likely correct about the bullet. I don't shoot paper patched bullets in .40 cal, but my .40-65 grease grooved bullets shoot quite well at the 600 bptr targets.

DHDeal, don't worry too much about not holding 1.5 minutes of angle total at 600. I've never seen it done in competition. I'm not sure how many perfect scores have been shot at 600, or if any have been shot at all. Certainly 1.5 minutes of angle or less in the vertical direction is doable, but the wind always smears them out horizontally. It would take a very very calm day, or a super skilled wind reader to keep ten shots in the ten ring at that distance.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Brent's right it's not the chamber in the gun, it's the bullet. The 40-65 is a good midrange cartridge when fed a bullet that is comparable with the barrel twist.
Chris the national record at 600 yards is 99 6x, it's held by Terry York, heck of a nice guy, and fun to spot for.

[ketland]

Been using the buffalo .395 425gr heavy PP bullet in the 40-65 rolling block. The barrel is a green mountain .40 cal they used to make, I do not remember off hand which profile it is, or the twist rate ( I do have the info written down somewhere, though not in front of me at the moment) it is a fairly heavy barrel with a nice taper which suits the action well. Rifle is very accurate out to 400 yards, but at 600, the group opens up multi directionally. Suggestions on a better bullet would be welcome.

[Don McDowell]

I like that BACO 396 415 gr money bullet. The same diameter bullet in the 385 gr weight might be a better choice for the twist in your barrel.

[ketland]

Thank You Don, looks like Buffalo arms has a .395 in 370gr or 400 gr, but no .396. I have always tended towards heavier bullets though perhaps that was not the best route for the smaller case on the 40-65, so I will try a lighter bullet and see if I can find some of the money bullets or a mold to cast them.

[rfd]

BACO custom cut my .40-65 Jim392425 mould to 393 for an added $10.

[Gunlaker]

Brent's right it's not the chamber in the gun, it's the bullet. The 40-65 is a good midrange cartridge when fed a bullet that is comparable with the barrel twist.
Chris the national record at 600 yards is 99 6x, it's held by Terry York, heck of a nice guy, and fun to spot for.

Thanks Don. I was pretty sure that no one had shot a perfect score at 600, but not 100% sure :-). That would be a nice record to have.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

I have a 40-70 ss that the only bullet it will shoot reliably to 600 yards in any conditions is the .400 360 gr BACO bullet. Longer bullets will shoot well in it, until cross winds start kicking up, then things start getting a little goofy on target. Sometimes I think we get caught up to deep into trying to run long heavy bullets, especially in powder charge capacity challenged cases.

[Don McDowell]

Chris I wish you would of been at Byers when Eddie shot that sizzling score on the 500 yd target. It was something to watch.

[Gunlaker]

Yeah that's a tricky target for sure. If you can stay in the 10 and 9 rings it's not a big difference over the 600, but you sure can't make any mistakes on it or you pay big time. Hopefully I'm at Byers next year. I do like that match quite a lot, and Robert's BBQ is a pretty darn good too!

I might switch from the .40-65 to my new Long Range Express in .45-70 for midrange. I'm just waiting on some new sights, but I think it might be able to pick up a couple of points at 500 & 600.

Chris.

[DHDeal]

Brent is likely correct about the bullet. I don't shoot paper patched bullets in .40 cal, but my .40-65 grease grooved bullets shoot quite well at the 600 bptr targets.

DHDeal, don't worry too much about not holding 1.5 minutes of angle total at 600. I've never seen it done in competition. I'm not sure how many perfect scores have been shot at 600, or if any have been shot at all. Certainly 1.5 minutes of angle or less in the vertical direction is doable, but the wind always smears them out horizontally. It would take a very very calm day, or a super skilled wind reader to keep ten shots in the ten ring at that distance.

Chris.

Chris,
When I shoot these rifles, I'm shooting off of a Randolph front rest and have all the time in the world. You are correct in that I was referring to vertical when I mentioned no better than 1.5 MOA. While I don't have the wind that they get out west, those bullets tend to go way up before they come down so the wind still does it's thing on me.

I do well with the wind through my Benchrest scopes and an array of flags/daisy wheels, but with aperture sights, I just have pay attention to my 300 yard flags.

All this talk is making me want to pull the Crossno Hepburn back out and let her sing.

[Gellot Wilde]

Excellent stuff, your boolits look great by the way.

[beltfed]

DHD,
I have been shooting a 1.325" long Elliptical ogive profile/Prolate Minigroove bullet in my 16 twist 40-65, wt 368 gr
over 70 gr Swiss 1.5/RP cases/1375fps...stability and accuracy out to 1K.
Now went to a similar, profile Elliptical ogive PP bullet , same length, over 74.5gr Swiss 1.5/WW cases for 1400 fps
Also good to 1K. I wipe for the PP bullets- 2 wet w/distilled water, 1 dry works.
beltfed/arnie

[ketland]

I ordered some BACO .395 370gr PP bullets to test. Looking forward to seeing if the lighter (as opposed the 425gr. bullets I am now using) bullets do better.
Appreciate all the advice here. Great thread, and hopefully this will help get my 40-65 into the game.

[Lead pot]

I ordered the JIM395415E and it is a little to large in diameter for my Douglas barrel that runs a tight .399" bore diameter and even using .0015" paper it is a very hard push to get it seated with out sizing it. I don't like sizing bullets so I ordered another mould custom from BAco at .393" and I had Jim make it 1.460" long for my 14 twist barrel and it turned out to be a good combination, it shoots very well.......Kurt

[rfd]

that's the bugaboo of ppb's - getting the right mould cast diameter and the right paper thickness .... not to mention getting the right mould shape and mould builder, and the right paper type. and all with a specific rifle/bore/chamber in mind. i tend to err on the skinny side, close to bore diameter, but not at bore diameter.

[Lead pot]

I get the best out of the rifle patched 1/2 thousands over bore diameter seated in the case 1/8". The .395 mould actually ended as a .396" diameter. This is very unusual getting the wrong diameter from baco but it used for breach seating and it works very good patched at .403" but this is the largest diameter bullet that fits in Starline cases fired in my chamber.



Ketland get your supply of paper you will use, .0018" or '002" thick and get a mould made for the paper you can get the most.

[ketland]

Lead Pot, appreciate the input, I have a few thicknesses of paper, and one that works well with the .395 heavy bullets, so I will use that paper as the starting point for the lighter bullet. The heavier 425 grain bullets work very well out to 300 yards, so the experiment with the lighter 370 grainers will be first, to see if the bullet works well at 200 and 300 yards, then to see if it works out at 600 and 1000. I was never able to get the 425 grain bullet to work at 600, and I never tried it at 1000 yards, so this should be interesting.
My other PP rifle is a big heavy barreled Sharps 45-110, and that rifle shoots beautifully at 600 and 1000 yards using 550 grain bullets.

[Lead pot]

Very good. Sounds like your all set to get it worked out.
:) use the .45/2-5/8 for past 600 :)

[ketland]

Lead Pot, I'm heartened here by reading that others have been able to make 40-65 work at longer distances, and I'm willing to make the effort to (hopefully) find a load that will work in mine at least out to 600 yards. The bigger 45-2.6 works so well it is almost boring to shoot, and that is where I'd like to be with the .40-65. Also, the 40-65 is built on a rolling block action, and I want to have a rolling block rifle that works well enough to bring to the range on a regular basis. The action started off as a Pedersoli Bodine rifle, and has an amazing piece of wood for a stock. I re-barreled it to 40-65 since I had the .40 barrel in the shop and a bunch of 40-65 brass, however I did not initially do testing with lighter bullets and that may well have been a/the mistake. Now I need to take the time and make the effort to find the best working load that works for this rifle, and this thread has provided the impetus for taking action to do so.

[Lead pot]

ketland the .40-65 is very capable of shooting long range. I shot with beltfed at the long range matches at Lodi Wis. and I pulled the target in the pit, cant remember if it was the 800 yard or the 900 yard when he shot the .40 and for 9 shots they went in the 10 and the X ring, the very last shot went just in the 9 by 1/2" so I know that the .40 will shoot long range.
I have a .40-70 I used for a long time that I used for the gong shoots with good results and I also have a .40-65 Browning BPCR I got in the mid 90's but I very seldom shoot it, it also shoots well but I just don't use it.
Last year I started shooting silhouettes and I really like it but I figured the .45-90 I was using for it was way over gunned for this game so I had a .40-65 CPA build and it just shoots the lights out but I have not shot it past 500 yards sofar but next summer is just around the turn of the new year :)
Kurt

[Don McDowell]

A couple of observations. The 40-65 certainly can shoot long range provided the winds don't get to rank. The biggest thing is to be sure and match the bullet length to the barrel twist. The other thing a person can get into with the 40's is there are some ranges that specify a minimum bullet weight for long range target, and that's where a 40 can get into problems as the bullet weight specified at over 400 gr. may be to long for the 16 twist the majority of 40 cal rifles now have.
Regarding paper weight and bullet diameter, what I'm seeing generally is that a bullet that is from bore diameter to .006 under bore can get by very well with a good quality 8 lb paper. Seth Cole 55 w, and the 8 lb tracing paper rolls Staples sells in their drafting dept both work well. When the bullet diameter goes smaller than .006 under bore that's when 9 lb paper really shines. When you get past .008 under bore diameter then you're looking at using 15 lb and heavier, but long range accuracy may not happen. 7 lb paper works well when you start getting into the .002 under bore diameter and larger.