.22 Lead dust won't melt ??? What it is?

[igolfat8]

I've been smelting and shooting pistol range scrap for years, with great success. I usually takes 20 minutes to heat before I see molten lead. I recently got some .22 lead (fine dust) from a [.22 only] indoor range. It is very clean and consists of gray-ish looking small granular material. Its our local range which holds .22 matches so I can confirm its ONLY .22 "lead". I also know that the majority of the .22's shot there are "high end" match grade ammo.

I heated this stuff for 1.5 hours, using my usual propane gas turkey fryer, before I saw any signs of molten lead. In a 100 pound pot, I only yielded about 40 pounds of lead. What I skimmed off was HEAVY coarse granular dust. While it was hot it was an orange-ish color. It turned dark gray after it cooled. I showed it to some local guys at the range and one guy thought it might be tungsten or antimony. Any ideas what this stuff is?

[Ola]

And the "stuff" was floating on top of the molten lead? If so, it's definitely not tungsten.

[georgerkahn]

I was at a gunshop nearby early this summer where a conversation re a similar occurrence was in progress. The shop generally has its five or six chairs filled ;) with experts from global warming to International economics :) :) :). The shop owner -- who is a fairly knowledgeable chap -- suggested that the wax-coated lead .22lr bullets are indeed that (lead), while the copper-clad bullets are anything and everything that could be swaged into a .22 lr bullet shape. The question being discussed was using the wax- vs. copper washed versions in semi-auto target pistols. The shop owner's thoughts were he only uses the wax ones in his, and has never had a build up which wasn't cleaned vis normal maintenance. On the other hand, he neither wished to plate his barrel with copper nor suffer possible degradation from the (expletive) the clad bullets are made of.
Once again, the source is from "barber-shop talk" at a local gunshop -- but, if what you got is from clad bullets, there might be some credence to it.
geo

[igolfat8]

And the "stuff" was floating on top of the molten lead? If so, it's definitely not tungsten.

Yes, it floated to the top.

[igolfat8]

I know a lot of the guys shoot Ely match bullets but I have no idea if they are clad or not? I'll have to ask around next time I'm there.

[Mica_Hiebert]

Graphite? Copper plating? Oxidized lead?

As far as the barbershop experts soft lead is swage then copper plated for jacketed 22 rounds, the plain lead bullets go through a process to blacken them but as far as I know it is just tumbling in graphite. Once loaded they are lubed with plain paraffin wax. There are a few rounds that are solid copper for the California market but most do not buy them if they are not forced to.

[starnbar]

That orangish stuff is a copper alloy it will melt with a direct flame of acetylene from a torch

[igolfat8]

What amazes me is that 60% of the mix had to be discarded. It looked VERY clean visually.

[too many things]

its most likely the lead free ammo . Winchester came out with lead free that was tin. but as you know tin got to be high. they have dropped the tin. some have gone to bismuth. but that was hard to work. It could be the swaged that is made from a powder. its made to desenagrate .I don't know what they used for the powder.If you can get some of the boxes it may say what they are made with
Its most likely the "green" ammo its copper powder and plastic. Its not cheap. and only good for about 50yds

[runfiverun]

that orange stuff is lead oxide.
your whole problem is lead oxide.
the oxidized coating around the lead insulates it from melting.
what you needed to do was add it to some melted alloy then heated it and used a reductant to break the oxidized bits down.
you could have recovered 90 sumthin%.

[Forrest r]

It's glass.

They use crushed glass in the priming compound for the rimfire cases. That's why you look at the 6 o-clock in 22lr bbl's for wear. A shots fired some of the glass goes out into the bbl and most of it lays on the bottom of the bbl. The next shots fired and glass that's in the bbl is pusher out and ends up down range.

If you don't clean the 22lr cases before you de-rim them to turn them into bullet jackets. You will end up around a 1/2 teaspoon of glass (looks like fine sand) per 1000 pieces of brass.

Anyway that's my story and I'm sticking to it.:roll:

[igolfat8]

that orange stuff is lead oxide.
your whole problem is lead oxide.
the oxidized coating around the lead insulates it from melting.
what you needed to do was add it to some melted alloy then heated it and used a reductant to break the oxidized bits down.
you could have recovered 90 sumthin%.

I did add some of the .22 scrap to a pot of molten range scrap. It did melt but I still had a LOT of the unmelted dust to discard. Certainly as much as before, and not 90% as you've suggested.

[longbow]

What runfiverun said, it is dross from lead oxide... or at least most is I think.

The fine bits tend not to melt easy as they float on top of dross already there and are insulated from the melt, and they have a lot of surface area so oxidize easily forming more dross.

Did you flux lots when you were melting? Not only will that reduce some dross back to lead but the dross itself often has lead trapped in it and fluxing will release it.

Also, in the case of fine stuff recovered, it may well have some sand/dirt, or whatever the backstop material is, along with it if it hasn't been separated so you are likely to get more dross and "stuff" on top of the melt.

Longbow

[igolfat8]

I flux each batch twice with sawdust, stirring aggressively until the sawdust was burned off then skimmed off dross and repeated one more time. The dross was the consistency of coarse sand. The backstop is rubber face and steel plate behind. Surprisingly there is no rubber in it.

[badbob454]

i have found that old candle wax about a tablespoon on top of the powder dross mix will smoke badly , light on fire and this stirred into the dross will provide enough heat to melt the dross into the melt , if it doesn't it isnt lead.. in my experience any way.... you may need to do this several times .

[igolfat8]

I'll try that on the next batch. Thx for the tip.

[Vinne]

I heated this stuff for 1.5 hours, using my usual propane gas turkey fryer, before I saw any signs of molten lead. In a 100 pound pot, I only yielded about 40 pounds of lead. What I skimmed off was HEAVY coarse granular dust. While it was hot it was an orange-ish color. It turned dark gray after it cooled. I showed it to some local guys at the range and one guy thought it might be tungsten or antimony. Any ideas what this stuff is?

Might be paint from the steel bullet trap in the backstop!! Maybe?? I had removed some lead from an indoor range years ago and what floated to the top was about the same as you described but my batch was mixed bullets. I also find that it takes me using a hotter pot to melt some 22 bullets.

Vinne

[igolfat8]

I don't thinks it's paint as paint would combust at ~300*F. The lead mix resembles the consistency of coarse sea salt, not that I tasted it �� My lead smelting pot was so hot, the bottom was glowing red

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Some of it is probably lead oxide, and that should be handled with care. That, rather than pure metallic lead, is what is most poisonous. It is also a bad idea to let a lead pot get red hot.

Copper clad bullets must turn into fragments of copper foil. If there is a steel bullet trap or ricochet plate it is constantly being blasted clean and acquiring some atmospheric rusting for the next time. I don't know if frangible bullets are bonded or sintered iron powder nowadays, but it is a possibility.

[runfiverun]

like Bob suggests.
'a reductant' not a flux is needed.

[scottfire1957]

Ha ha ha. "It's copper oxide." "It's glass....." "paint," "lead oxide," "graphite."

Nobody knows ****.

Edit: I have been accused of using this term too much, but I have no problem saying: have it analysed. Nobody here knows what your material is. EVERYTHING else is a guess. If you are fine with a guess, cool.

Edit 2: you don't even post a picture. Hahahahaha.

[longbow]

I stand corrected, runfiverun has it right again... I use old engine oil to "flux" and actually should act as a reductant. As per the candle wax, I add a small amount (container cap full) then light it and stir. If the dross is thick and gummy when I start is is dry dust when I finish.

Once again, it works for me but YMMV.

Longbow

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It's glass.

They use crushed glass in the priming compound for the rimfire cases. That's why you look at the 6 o-clock in 22lr bbl's for wear. A shots fired some of the glass goes out into the bbl and most of it lays on the bottom of the bbl. The next shots fired and glass that's in the bbl is pusher out and ends up down range.

If you don't clean the 22lr cases before you de-rim them to turn them into bullet jackets. You will end up around a 1/2 teaspoon of glass (looks like fine sand) per 1000 pieces of brass.

Anyway that's my story and I'm sticking to it.:roll:

There usually is glass. I don't know about all manufacturers, at all times, but a lot of them. But I can think of various reasons to doubt that the OP's substance is glass. I am sure that it will only make it downrange to the target if it is embedded into the bullet surface. If it isn't, could gravity pull it down to the bottom of the barrel and not pull it down to the ground in the distance it would have to travel? If it is, why would it create wear on the bottom of the bore? The bullet may pick it up there, but it spins all around the bore circumference.

[NavyVet1959]

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellFluxing.htm

[Harry O]

Many years ago, I had a bunch of .22 Short "gallery loads" to shoot up. They were made of iron filings stuck together with some kind of a binding agent (glue). When they struck a steel backplate, they would disintegrate into iron dust. Some of the filings would burn when they hit, making a sparkler effect.

Not likely, but a possibility.

[Ola]

Lead oxide.. I always thought that orange stuff is rust from the ww-clips or something. No wonder it miraculously always disappears.

[Ola]

Sometimes I'm just slow.. I just NOW realized that Lead Oxide has been used as pigment. From wikipedia

Lead(II,IV) oxideRed lead is virtually insoluble in water and in alcohol. However, it is soluble in hydrochloric acid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrochloric_acid) present in the stomach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stomach), and is therefore toxic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic) when ingested. It also dissolves in glacial acetic acid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_acetic_acid) and a diluted mixture of nitric acid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_acid) and hydrogen peroxide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide).
When heated to 500 °C, it decomposes to lead(II) oxide and oxygen. At 580 °C, the reaction is complete.
2 Pb3O4 → 6 PbO + O2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II,IV)_oxide

[tomme boy]

I smash it against the side of the pot and that seems to turn lots of the junk back to lead. I go back and forth between smashing and candle wax on fire to get 90% of this to go away.