Case capacity differences between Starline and Winchester 45 Colt brass?

[Naphtali]

As a rule of thumb, how much difference in case capacity (filled with water or, perhaps, H110) is there between Starline and Winchester 45 Colt brass? Which generally has greater capacity? How much greater?

Does case capacity change when brass is nickel plated? I ask because I haven't looked inside nickel plated brass to find out whether entire case is plated. or only its exterior.

[dubber123]

I never noted a capacity difference between plated and non-plated cases of the same manufacturer. I don't have any Starline cases to check for you, but it's good to do. Years ago I found a big difference between the thicker Federal 45 Colt and thinner Remington cases. A repeatable 1.5 grain charge weight difference using the same pound of powder. It took my normal load to "interesting".

[44man]

Sure not enough to worry about. Same loads work in all modern brass.

[dubber123]

Sure not enough to worry about. Same loads work in all modern brass.

Not always the case Jim, the difference between Fed and Rem in 45 Colt took my loads from fine to sticking HARD, same batch of boolits, same primers, same pound of powder. I actually did it one other time in .357 mag. Worked up in PMC brass, shot many with no issues, switched to a particular lot of Winchester brass, 6 pierced primers in the first cylinder, the brass being the only change. Both loads were max to start, thicker brass put them over the edge. It happens.

[44man]

But pierced primers are not the same. You have other problems.
I have shot all brass from Fed, PMC, WW, hornady, Starline, Rem and Midway without a problem.
WW is usually more capacity from being thinner. Should be LESS pressure.
I actually shoot more Rem in my .44 then anything.
What I found with WW brass is rim thickness varies.

[dubber123]

But pierced primers are not the same. You have other problems.
I have shot all brass from Fed, PMC, WW, hornady, Starline, Rem and Midway without a problem.
WW is usually more capacity from being thinner. Should be LESS pressure.
I actually shoot more Rem in my .44 then anything.
What I found with WW brass is rim thickness varies.

Nope, weighed and averaged the brass, the Win .357 weighed on average 11 grains heavier than my batch of PMC. This load was using 180 jacketed from the same box, same pound of powder, same primers. The brass was the only difference. Brass CAN make a difference. If you are shooting light or middle of the road loads, you probably won't notice.

[44MAG#1]

I am with 44man on this one. Unless one was at the ragged edge on load data the capacity will not make a great change. Some change yes, not a huge change.
The only way to really determine how much a light case verses a heavy case makes in load data would be to load the same load, with same powder and lot number with the same primer and lot number with the bullets cast at the same time and same alloy with the same amount of crimp and chrono the two different cases caps. back to back in the same session.

[ole 5 hole group]

Conventional thinking would indicate the case having the greater volume would also have less pressure, all else being equal?

[contender1]

Why not do the water measurement yourself if it is that critical to you? As noted above,,, unless you are pushing the max load envelope in general,, you will not notice any issues. I'm not saying it can't happen,,,or that some brass is thicker or thinner,,, but due to most powder types & charges,,, if you are going to max or near max, USING THE PROPER LOADING MANUALS,,, you will not experience any issues.
I have several 45 Colt handguns. I never sort my brass by brand. I make sure my brass is in good shape, clean, and uniform in length. I then load my test ammo for each gun to find the most accurate load, while using the guidelines in the loading manuals. What I have found is that for most guns,,, I do not need a max charge of anything to get the best accuracy. And I'm man enough to not need to show off my manhood by loading some "loundenkickinboomer" loads just to see how much power I can handle. I have other calibers & guns if I need more power. I also shoot 454 & 480's a lot.

Nickel plated brass only has plating on the outside.

[str8wal]

Conventional thinking would indicate the case having the greater volume would also have less pressure, all else being equal?

Agreed. I haven't taken the time to measure volume of various cases but I do stick with the same headstamp each session. I don't load to the max, albeit close, and haven't noticed any changes with different brass other than the feel on the press handle.

[44man]

While some calibers need max to work best, the .45 Colt does not. To notice much of anything will not mean anything. Now the .454 needs driven. Yet differences between brass should not take it over the top.
My problem with WW brass was rim thickness. Some would not allow a cylinder to turn. Seems to be where more weight was. I had to file the bases to fit. .375 rifle brass the worst and since they were the only maker of the brass, I was stuck with it. You might not notice in a rifle. Head space!
But my 45-70 WW brass has thinner necks.

[44MAG#1]

Conventional wisdom does not necessarily work all the time.
Lets say the lesser volumn case is of a softer brass will maybe hold the bullet with less neck tension and have a crimp that is easier to force open verse maybe a harder case that will hold the bullet tighter with a crimp harder to force open or a case that is not as slick of material as the other that holds the bullet tighter along with more case neck tension.
Many variables that involve more than capacity. VOLUMN is only ONE variable.
A thicker case with a thicker case mouth with the crimp die set for the thinner case will crimp the thicker case more.
Just give this subject a dose of gray matter and then expound on it.

[44man]

Gray matter must be a billion an ounce. Look at who will vote this time.
Most success I have had is from holding my head at the bench to imagine what is going on.
You have said it better.

[Naphtali]

My understanding of H110 is that the difference between a STARTING LOAD and MAXIMUM LOAD is small. If its safe loading range is so inflexible, does capacity of cartridge case become important?

[44MAG#1]

Your understanding is for most purposes is correct. Only up to a point. Dont over think this. It will serve no purpose but to confuse you.

[dubber123]

Ok, so lets look at it from this point of view. If I shoot the same lot of powder, same box of primers, same box of boolits cast on the same day, across the same chronograph, and can replicate the average velocity of load "A" with 1.5 grains LESS powder using only different brass in load "B", even if it didn't cause an issue, that certainly points out to me that consistency is not the best it could be.

In the 45 Colt, I may have inadvertently tried the 2 ends of the brass spectrum, the thinnest and the thickest. It does affect pressure and therefore velocity, and loaders should be aware of this. If most of your brass falls within a few % of each other, you will probably never notice due to that. Varying case neck tension between brands probably matters more at that point. Yes, I noticed it with max loads in both instances. It doesn't mean that if you don't notice it in a milder loading, it doesn't exist.

[44MAG#1]

No one said it doesn't affect velocity and pressure. But there can be other things at play other than case volumn.
As a reloader I DO pay attention to the small things but I give small things small amounts of my attention.
I will say this if one is loading a load in large capacity brass and goes to a smaller capacity brass and you stick cases, blow primers etc. etc. etc one needs to look at the load they are using in the larger capacity cases.
That is it. If,one does this then thempressures one is running in the larger capacity cases are way to high. Especially when one can run pressures to 50,000 PSI with pistol primers and not blow them

[dubber123]

I pierced primers in .357 mag. It was a hot 180 grain jacketed load with 2400 powder. Now there could have been other factors, but the load functioned 100% and primers looked acceptable, ejection fine, etc., I know none are good pressure indicators, but the load FUNCTIONED fine. Switching only cases, 6 pierced primers in a row. 11 grains difference in brass weight on a small .357 case is a good bit. A bit too much on an already max load, I should have backed down.

In the 45 Colt, I was using Unique, and was loading to 10.5 grains with a 265 WFN in R-P brass. That was safe and I shot a lot of them. I switched to FC brass for some unknown reason, and the first 6 seemed to recoil more. Then the stuck brass clued me something was up. The difference was 1.5 grains in charge weight to produce equal velocities, which I find pretty significant. We agree under normal circumstances, you probably wouldn't notice, and a lot of brass has similar capacities further reducing the pressure increase.

The OP didn't specify if these were plinkers, mid range or full on max loadings, so I was suggesting it would be well worth checking before switching brass. If I had reduced the load when changing a component, (should be a rule or something), I wouldn't have had any issues either.

[Naphtali]

. . . I will say this if one is loading a load in large capacity brass and goes to a smaller capacity brass and you stick cases, blow primers etc. etc. etc one needs to look at the load they are using in the larger capacity cases. . . . This is why I ask whether, as a handloader of H110 in 45 Colt, I need be aware of a normal or routine difference between the case brands of 45 Colt brass. If it's a worthwhile thing, I ask: What case capacities I should routinely expect?

[44MAG#1]

The Winchester case I weighed and the Starline case I weighed were within 5 grains of each other.

[44man]

Primers are no indication of pressure. Stuck brass IS. But there will be max loads to do it. Unique and other fast powders SPIKE all of a sudden. You fool with fast powders and brass gets important. I shoot the .45 and .44 with 7 gr of Unique. Keep adding it and also 2400 to spike should teach something. Work loads with the brass you have.

[reddog81]

Why don't you just measure your brass and find out? You have a scale right? I imagine different lots of brass have different properties and considering 45 Colt brass has been manufactured for over 100 years one persons observations might not apply or could be totally opposite of yours.


I've never loaded 45 Colt, but the large case capacity should have very little effect on any SAAMI spec load. My Lyman manual has no powders close to H110 listed for 45 Colt if that's the powder you were planning on using.

[truckboss]

ok i"m bored.WW 108.5 starline 106 Grains:coffee:

[Naphtali]

ok i"m bored.WW 108.5 starline 106 Grains:coffee: I believe this obligates me to buy you and yours supper at Lindey's, the best steak house in Seeley Lake, the next time you're here?

[HABCAN]

Confounding the post above to the contrary, all MY nickle brass is plated inside AND out.

[dubber123]

Confounding the post above to the contrary, all MY nickle brass is plated inside AND out.

As has been every piece I have ever seen. It isn't thick enough to amount to much, but it's there.

[square butte]

It's been a while since I was in Seeley Lake. Lindy's must be the only steak house there - Unless things have gotten a lot better in Seeley Lake. I hope it's a good'un

[swc-tr]

The H2O capacity of my fired Starline brass is an average of 43.4grs, while my W-W brass averages 44.1grs.

[psweigle]

Case capacity with max charges of h110 is important, period. In 357 magnum,( no experience with 45 colt, sorry.) different brass has different case capacity. The powder charge from min to max is very small. Pressure signs are almost always noticed by me. Just my two cents. I load for a ruger 77/357, security six, blackhawk, and a coonan.the coonan and the rifle seem to show the sings of pressure more quickly due to no cylinder gap. If it were me, I would measure the capacity before making a decision on what the max load was going to be. Good luck.

[44MAG#1]

The new Win case and the new Starline I weighed showed the Win case slightly heavier.
The .7 gr of H2O difference actually amounts to very, very little difference in powder charge.
Again if one is using a charge in the greater capacity case that when it is used in the slightly lesser capacity case and it give alarming pressure differences then the load in the slightly greater capacity cases is TO HIGH.
P-E-R-I-O-D..