Using .38 cal cast bullets in 9mm [Archive]

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Cloudpeak

10-31-2005, 11:27 AM

I've been toying with the idea of buying a CZ75 in 9mm for steel target shooting. Can I resize bullets of .358" that are designed for 38 Special down to .356" using the Lee resizing die? This would give me more options in bullets including heavier bullets for use when shooting steel targets.

Cloudpeak

Bullshop

10-31-2005, 12:05 PM

mike in co

10-31-2005, 12:24 PM

the real question is...will a revolver shaped boolit feed in a semi-auto pistol...so pick the shape that will feed...then size to fit... i have a 140 rn (35864) i plan on doing the same with.

Cherokee

10-31-2005, 12:44 PM

I do it all the time in 9mm and 38 Super

KCSO

10-31-2005, 01:22 PM

Slug your bore as a lot of CZ's run a little large and shoot better with a 357/358 bullet. I shoot a 357 140 in mine.

MTWeatherman

10-31-2005, 01:26 PM

You certainly can do it if the right bullet is picked. Two concerns when picking that bullet.

1. It has to feed well. SWCs pose problems in many semiautos.
2. Going to a heavier .38 bullet in a 9mm can eat up powder capacity in the small case since many .38 bullets require relatively deep seating to function...they're designed for revolvers. This means pressure can spike rapidly...the combination of a heavy bullet and a compressed powder charge has to be watched carefully. With a heavy bullet, you may not gain as much on those steel targets as you hope since you may be forced to launch those bullets at a relatively low velocity in order to keep pressures in check with the correct OAL. It may be that a 147 gr. 9mm would be a better performer for you if you need a heavier bullet.

That said, using .38 bullets can be a plus in a 9mm...especially if the 9mm has a .357 groove as some do. A 9mm mould may not drop a large enough bullet whereas a .38 should drop at least at .358 (unless the mould is undersized). I've used .38 bullets in a 9mm with good success...up to and including a 158gr in a 9mm carbine.

Johnch

10-31-2005, 07:48 PM

Somewhere I have loading data I used for Pin shooting using a 158 gr .358 bullet in a 9mm
I shot these out of a slicked up Star Model 30

I loaded SWC bullets
Don't remember the speed , but I do remember they kicked more and took off pins better than any other load I tryed
And won me some $$ if I did my part

Boy do I wish I still had that 9mm

Johnch

Buckshot

10-31-2005, 09:33 PM

..........Cloudpeak, Oh don't fool with no steenking 9mm, get a 38 Super :D Yowzaa!

http://www.fototime.com/94E23D0AC147FC1/standard.jpg

That's an RCBS 38-162 SWC-GC and it feeds just fine in my pistol. I have a Tanfoglio Witness and it's superbly accurate. I bought a slide and barrel retrofit from EAA in 45 ACP for it, but it has a barrel issue and is nowhere near as fine shooting. In fact to be blunt it sucks channel water :D Naturally I lollygagged around for a few years before ever doing anything about that, so I'll have to buy a new 45 barrel.

But anyway, another good slug is the Lyman 147gr FNBB. My mould drops them about 153grs and I've had them up to 1260fps with WC820. In order for my pistol to perform, I size them to .357" as the groove is .356". It WILL chamber a .358" but not 100% of the time and it seems accuracy is no better, so why do it?

Some of the best groups I've shot (that load in the photo is one) will shoot 10 rounds into 1.5" at 25 yards and the pistol is box stock. I bought a Wolff spring pack for the pistol and the lightest is IIRC 12 lbs. Heaviest is 26 lbs. It's a darn fine shooting pistol with a 125gr Lee RN and a light charge of W231, but you can't limp wrist it.

I don't know what they go for now, but I bought mine maybe 10 years ago (actually for my wife) for $265 with two 18 round magazines. Nice pistols.

...............Buckshot

fecmech

10-31-2005, 11:59 PM

Be real careful with the boolits over 150grs in the 9mm. If you have a short throated pistol like my BHP anything with a sharp shoulder like a swc or the Lee 158 rnfp have to be seated so deep in the case you will be running some serious pressures pretty quick. My Kahr K9 otoh had about 1/4" of freebore in front of the case and bullets could be loaded to max oal for the mag and pressures were less of a problem. Nick

Leftoverdj

11-01-2005, 08:52 AM

Bodydoc447

11-01-2005, 10:19 AM

LeftoverDJ,

What does the Lee 356-153-2R measure in your alloy as cast? I was thinking it might be a nice cheap boolit for .38 special plinking loads or maybe a .38 S&W in a real soft alloy over a couple grains of Bullseye to bump it up a little for my Victory model. I have a Lyman 358311 but it is really heavy to cast many boolits out of. Does the Lee manual have data for this boolit in other than .38 Super. Hope I didn't hijack the thread too badly.

Doc

Cloudpeak

11-01-2005, 11:12 AM

I answered this on another board but here goes again for this crew.

Lee has discontinued 356-153-2R six cavity moulds on their surplus page for $25. It was their .38 Super bullet and was designed to function in autos. It's become my plinking bullet in anything in the 9mm - .38 range because it's accurate and easy to cast a mountain of in a very short time.

Leftover: Lee is still showing 4 of the 356-153-2R lseft on their surplus page.

Thanks to everyone who responded. Your comments helped quite a bit. I appreciate the time everyone spent responding.

I'm also thinking of possibly buying the CZ75 in 40 S&W. That way, I'm all set up. I like the TL401-175-SWC bullets I get out of the 6 cavity mold, I wouldn't have to buy a new shell plate and I have 1,000 or so 40 cal bullets cast and ready to reload.

I'm going out later this am to shoot a friend's new Springfield 1911 9mm. I'll be interested in seeing the difference in recoil between the all steel 1911 and his XD 9mm Service.

Cloudpeak

Cloudpeak

11-01-2005, 11:28 AM

..........Cloudpeak, Oh don't fool with no steenking 9mm, get a 38 Super :D Yowzaa!

I don't know anything about the 38 Super. I did notice the cartride in my 25 year old (approx) Lyman's reloading manual. Back then I didn't have any interest in sometning like the Super. I reloaded for 243, 270, 357/38 and my Ruger Blackhawk 44 (that I still own).

We have one or two guys shooting Super's in our steel club. One of the guys is a darned good shot. But, I've deveoped an interest in CZ's and they don't offer that caliber. I imagine 9mm ammo would be cheaper and much easier to find than 38 Super also.

Thanks, Cloudpeak

fecmech

11-01-2005, 06:10 PM

leftoverdj or anyone else have a picture of the lee 356-153-2r? Since it is discontinued there are no pics on the lee site and none of my paper catalogs show it. Does it have 1 or 2 lube grooves? Thanks Nick

Cloudpeak

11-02-2005, 10:56 AM

Leftoverdj

11-02-2005, 02:56 PM

From my mould those 356-153-2R bullets generally drop right around .358. They have a single groove and a very slight bevel base. I've been lubing them with Johnson's paste wax and shooting them unsized in anything handy.

I haven't bothered with bullet specific data. Lower end loads for 150 or `158 grain cast in whatever cartridge I am using works fine. It's been a very useful mould for me. Feeding has been flawless in the couple of autos I have tried, and accuracy has been good from .38 Special cases in an scoped Handi, c. 1.25" 50 yard groups.

I dunno that it is the best bullet for any particular use, but it sure is versatile and easy to work with.

Bodydoc447

11-02-2005, 03:02 PM

Thanks, Leftoverdj. I gave in and ordered one from the surplus site. Heck, it was only lunch money for a few weeks and I am too fat anyhow. I will likely use it very much as you do, in what ever needs a lead stopper of about .38 caliber. I have lots of .38 special brass that needs filling. I may try it in 9mm with the 147 gr load data just for giggles.

Anyway, as cast with Lee liquid slobber on them ought to be about as easy as it gets.

Thanks again,
Doc

scrapcan

11-02-2005, 03:37 PM

Cloudpeak,

Being from Wyoming and being married to someone who grew up under the shadow of Cloud Peak, I think I know where you are from or the general area anyway. Nice to see others from our big/little state on the site.

I have found that you can make a bone stock 1911 that has not been modified shoot semi-wadcutters. The trick is to measure the nose diameter of the SWC and match that diameter to the same diameter on a standard FMJ BAll load. Once you find the diameter on the FMJ Ball load just measure the overall length to that diameter and set the SWC overall length to that. I had used this for some time after being shown this by an old 1911 shooter (he shoots a 1943 A1 that he brought back from Europe, even has the flaming bomb and US Property markings) and then I found it in print in the 1911 Kunhausen book. It works. I also used this with 9mm Sprinfield P9 which is a Tanfoglio clone of the CZ75B. I have not used anything other than an RCBS 148 SWC in 9mm but it worked. I use the Lyman 356147 BB alot and have shot pins with it. If you want to clear pins, use something as big or bigger than the 38 super. The 9mm Luger will clear the table but not aswell as the 38 Super, 40, or 45 ACP.

The 9mm is fun to shoot with the lyman 356147. recoil is very manageable and is quite accurate.

My suggestion is to by an EAA, Tangoglio, or CZ and by the conversion kit for 40 S&W. Or better yet the 45GAP when they are firmly available. 9MM luger, 40S&W, and 45GAP will fit the standard frame.

Also look around and get a CZ with the hammer drop safety, MY P9 does not have it and I would like to have it. The double action trigger pull on my P9 is very nice and what a shame to not be able to maximize it's use.

take care and good luck.

By the way what range are you shooting at?

Cloudpeak

11-02-2005, 04:07 PM

Cloudpeak,

Being from Wyoming and being married to someone who grew up under the shadow of Cloud Peak, I think I know where you are from or the general area anyway. Nice to see others from our big/little state on the site.

By the way what range are you shooting at?

I live just west of Buffalo. I shoot at both ranges.

Thanks for your comments on CZ's, etc.

Cloudpeak

fecmech

11-02-2005, 09:59 PM

Thanks Cloudpeak and Leftoverdj for the info. Nick

9.3X62AL

11-04-2005, 12:26 PM

Not much to add here, except to say that ALL THREE of my current 9mm's have fat groove diameters--.356"+. All have pretty short throats, too--so mind the P's and Q's when seating those heavier boolits. Overall, my 9mm pistols seem to prefer 125-130 grain boolits/bullets historically--this is a population of about 10 different pistols over the years.

My current favorite boolit in the 9's is Lyman #358242, the 121 grain version. I size Taracorp castings to .357" and seat to just kiss the leade, and they behave themselves pretty well.

Favorite 9mm pistols--Browning HP or Colt Goverment Model in single action, CZ-75 or SIG-Sauer P-226 in D/A. The Colt or Springfield 1911A1 9mm variants have 1-16" twists in their barrels, which make life a LOT better for cast boolits.

A CZ-75 or BHP in 40 S&W would make a well-nigh perfect service gun.