Question for Snyd about his .454 425 gr. load in the Rossi 92

[480guy]

First of all, I want to thank you, Snyd, for all the very valuable information based on your first-hand experience with your .454-converted Redhawk and Rossi Puma .454 that you have shared in both this and the Alaskan forum (I was actually about to join the latter a few moments ago just to ask this question, but the wait for being approved there would have been too long).

So my specific question is, have you tested your .454 425 gr. load (MV of about 1,450 FPS) actually hunting big game to know for certain that it stabilizes the boolit well through hard tissue and bone in your Rossi 92, and would you feel confident about employing that gun and load in SD situations against predatory animals in Alaska, including the big bears?

And my reason for asking is, I am planning a trip to Alaska with my girlfriend and we'll be there in about a year or so...traveling through Canada on our way back to the lower 48, so handguns, for this trip, are out of the question. We'll be doing a lot of hiking, hence the perfectly good excuse to start looking for a new levergun... :), which most important function will, of course, be personal protection while in the wilderness.
Now, I've pondered options a bit and I'm divided between the Rossi 92 in .454 and the Marlin 1895 SBL in 45-70 (SS "guide gun" with 6 round capacity and 18.5" barrel). The Marlin of course is a much more powerful weapon than the Rossi, capable of launching 525-540 gr. LBT's @ 1,300-1,500 FPS and is thus, as you probably very well know, routinely used for hunting the largest game on earth. However, it also weighs over 8 lbs. loaded, against the 5 lbs. of the Rossi, and that 3-pound difference is a lot less weight to carry around during the long hikes...also, I've read very good things about the Rossi, and it really looks like a very good levergun to me. :)
I think that a 425 gr. boolit out of the Rossi @ about 1,400-1500 FPS (with a Taylor KO value of between 38.6 and 41.3), such as the one you have been experimenting with in your 92, would be completely adequate for the job.
The only question that remains is, I know it works well on paper, but will it stabilize through heavy tissue and bone? Aside from its SD effectiveness, I am also very interested about how well it performs in hunting situations.

I've heard it said countless times that it has already been proved without doubt that the optimal boolit weight for the .454" .454 Casull is only up to 360 gr., after which a point of diminishing returns is reached and stability will suffer for sure due to lack of necessary velocity with the twist rates of these guns. I am reasoning, however, that the .458" 45-70 was used for a very, very long time to efficiently hunt the largest animals in this continent when the standard, with black powder, was a 405 gr. boolit @ 1.300 FPS. And that, even today, the Marlin 45-70 is highly praised as an excellent choice for the same function, for ranges of up to 100 yards, with a twist rate of 1:20", effectively launching boolits of 525-540 gr. @ 1,300-1,500 FPS with indisputably proven stability.
So why wouldn't a gun with an almost identical bore diameter of .454" and an identical twist rate of 1:20" (the Rossi 92 in this case...or does it have a twist rate of 1:32", I am not totally sure about this, I think it's a 1:20" but maybe someone here in the know could confirm which?) be capable of producing a very similar boolit stability, when its case capacity is sufficient, as you Snyd have proven in your experience, to launch a 425 gr. boolit at over 1,450 FPS? It just doesn't make sense to me that it would not. And yet the popular wisdom is that it will not, just "because a .454 Casull can't do that."

However, experience has taught me that things that should work theoretically not always work in practice, hence my posing this question here. Others who have experimented *first hand* with the Rossi 92 in .454 Casull and similarly heavy boolits are also welcome to share their experience here. Theory, hearsay and second-hand opinions are cheap, practical experience is what really counts and what can ultimately answer this question.

Thanks for reading the long post...

Paul

[Tatume]

PM? Maybe

[480guy]

Yup, did that....waiting until he gets it.

[Snyd]

Howdy,
I pack that 425gr load in my levergun when the wifey and I go hiking in bear country sometimes. I've never shot a critter with it but I don't doubt it would do the job. I don't feel under gunned with it. If you're concerned about stabilization with that heavy boolit there are other options. Like the cast performance 335gr at 1700fps! I'm more concerned with OAL and boolit nose profile so the rounds cycle smoothly and reliably.

I have a friend that has done extensive testing with the 45-70 and has also killed buffalo with it. He was pushing a 400ish gr around 1800, did the wet newsprint test, backed the load down to like 15 or 1600 and got more penetration.

Here is RCBC 405-FN .458 sized down to 454,452 at 47yds. I think the 20" 1/20 twist barrel does good job here. I'd shoot a griz with it no prob. In fact I might just use it bear baiting (griz) this spring but I'm leaning towards my 500L revolver.

179663

[Snyd]

Oh, I forgot to add this link. A good read about 454 and African Hunting. The author writes about a 420gr at 1450 from his 454 Revolver that killed a buffalo.

http://www.lasc.us/AfricanHunt-CastBullets.htm

[480guy]

Snyd, thanks a lot for your input! I was hoping that you had actually tested the 425 gr. load in the Puma in actual hunting, and was looking forward to that input and would have trusted your feedback on it, based on my reading your straightforward and honest quality posts over the last 5 years.
The lasc.us article you linked to (thanks for doing that, it is much appreciated!) seems to be excellent information, however, that's the very first thing I read from that unknown-to-me fellow, and as you know anybody can write whatever they please on the internet. I tend to take everything with a grain of salt, especially when I find myself having to base a purchasing decision on it, unless at least a minimum of reasonable trustworthiness for the validity of the information at hand is first established somehow.

That article makes a very good point, though, about necessary boolit hardness (resistance of the alloy to deformation), which is definitely an important consideration especially when dealing with hard-boned animals such as, for instance, water buffalo and brown bears. For these, the article suggests an alloy of wheel weights mixed with Linotype (4:1 by weight, requiring higher melting temperatures, resulting in a mix of 93.6% lead, 1% tin and 5.4% antimony), hardened by dropping directly from the mold into room temperature water. Another seemingly important point stated in the article that I honestly never thought about is that the surface hardening the boolits gain by water quenching would be removed if the boolits are sized down and, therefore, for this reason, they should not be sized down, but rather lubricated with a die of a larger diameter in order to avoid that. If this is true, then using a .458 boolit meant for the .45-70 in the .454 Casull should be considered out of the question, because such boolit would definitely need to be resized to at least .454" for a .452" bore (when measuring the groove diameter of it) and would therefore lose the surface hardening gained by water quenching. Very interesting information, and I'm jotting all this down here because this thread is definitely ending up in my reloading/hunting archive for future reference. Hopefully, it will also be good food for thought for others.

Snyd, I would not consider a 335 gr. @ 1,700 optimal with in mind a self-defensive situation, which generally involves a distance of, say, 50 yards to zero. High velocity is good for hunting purposes at higher distances, IMHO, but for SD I would want an as-heavy-as-possible, properly stabilized WFN hard cast, with an as-wide-as-possible meplat, at a velocity of about 1,200-1,300 FPS which seems ideal for the best possible penetration at close quarters. I was having exactly this conversation in another thread of mine in this forum about six months ago and it is very likely that a properly stabilized 420 gr. or heavier WFN hard cast at about 1,100-1,300 FPS will do the job for anything in North America. I have a 7.5" SRH in .480 capable of 1,150 FPS with a 420 gr. boolit, and would take that with me for this purpose if it weren't that we'll be traveling through Canada and handguns are not permitted there. To me, a handgun I've practiced with and I'm proficient with, permanently on my belt at my side (even though the 7.5" barrel of my SRH is a bit too long for that), is preferable to a long gun for SD, just because it will be always easily reachable and available at any moment I may need it.
I regret not having bought the Rossi Puma in .480 when they were still around and the chance of purchasing one new presented itself to me a few years back...I would have a nice revolver/levergun-in-one-caliber combination.

Well, at this point and based on the evidence I have at hand, I think I'll go with the short Marlin in .45-70. I shot a couple of these in the past, but honestly have no idea what a 525 gr. @ around 1,200-1,300 FPS feels like recoil-wise, nevertheless it sounds exciting, it's going to be a very interesting experience...and I write this with a sparkle in the eye, it will be discovering a new gun, you know, getting dies and more for it, testing a bit and experimenting with it... A new project, and what Santa is very likely to bring this year... :)
I only have to think something up that will make my girlfriend as joyous, so I won't be the only one with a sparkle in the eye...

By the way, I'm glad you got the 500L custom revolver you always said you wanted... :) Congrats on that! I would love to hear a bit more about it, loads you have used already or plan to, first impressions, and see a picture or two, maybe... Those things are great...I'm really happy for you that you got one! :)

[480guy]

Of course, as I think it is also stated in that article, the .458" boolits could be sized down to .454" first and then heated up in an oven below melting temperature and finally water quenched. That would ensure that the necessary surface hardness gained by water quenching stays with the boolits.

[Snyd]

Either one will do the job. Buy the gun you like the most. Don't over think it. 400+gr hard cast at 1400fps from 1/20 twist 454 FA Revolvers have taken the big African game. Waterdropped wheel weights or WW with some lino will do the job. The 45/70 is know for it's killing power as well. No need to reinvent the wheel. Find a boolit/load the gun likes and shoot it!

I've tested bhn of waterdropped WW .458's sized down to 452- 454 and they are 21-22 with my WW alloy. Same as my .454's sized to .452.

Good shootin and enjoy your trip to AK!

[480guy]

Thank you, Snyd! I very much appreciate your input!

Great also that you confirmed that the .454 Rossi 92 has a 1:20 twist rate and that your water dropped WW alloy boolits retain a 21-22 bhn after sizing them down... It's all very helpful to know.

Whether you decide to go after griz with the Puma .454 or 500L revolver this spring, I look forward to reading about it!

:happy dance:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/customs/happy%20dance.gifhttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/customs/happy%20dance.gifhttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/customs/happy%20dance.gif

[Snyd]

Thank you, Snyd! I very much appreciate your input!

Great also that you confirmed that the .454 Rossi 92 has a 1:20 twist rate and that your water dropped WW alloy boolits retain a 21-22 bhn after sizing them down... It's all very helpful to know.

Whether you decide to go after griz with the Puma .454 or 500L revolver this spring, I look forward to reading about it!

:happy dance:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/customs/happy%20dance.gifhttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/customs/happy%20dance.gifhttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/customs/happy%20dance.gif

How about a thread hijack! :D...

500L

I sent this off to John Gallagher...
http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w505/pbsnyd/50thAnnBH/44ann_01.jpg

I got this back...

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w505/pbsnyd/500L/P2150046_zpsy9y548fq.jpg

Thad Rybka leather

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w505/pbsnyd/500L/P9170116_zps4jzmvtma.jpg

455gr cast from a Ballisticast mould over a case full of LilGun to 1325fps made great Moose Medicine...

I hunt an any Bull area and don't care about antler size. In fact I prefer 3-4 year olds.
Here's a short video. 4th moose I've taken solo.


https://youtu.be/C4r4SNL78nI

[Wayne Smith]

Don't worry about 'surface hardening' from water dropping. Back when CastBoolits was with Amio(?) somebody did some testing and found boolits hardened through with water dropping. He also found a predicable hardening process over time and did not find an end point where the boolits softened again. Cast, water drop, size and lube immediately, and the boolit continues to harden over the next few weeks.

[480guy]

How about a thread hijack! :D...

500L

I sent this off to John Gallagher...
http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w505/pbsnyd/50thAnnBH/44ann_01.jpg

I got this back...

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w505/pbsnyd/500L/P2150046_zpsy9y548fq.jpg

Thad Rybka leather

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w505/pbsnyd/500L/P9170116_zps4jzmvtma.jpg

455gr cast from a Ballisticast mould over a case full of LilGun to 1325fps made great Moose Medicine...

I hunt an any Bull area and don't care about antler size. In fact I prefer 3-4 year olds.
Here's a short video. 4th moose I've taken solo.


https://youtu.be/C4r4SNL78nI


Great thread hijack! :awesome:I love that gun...it's a work of art! Enjoyed the video very much too...

I'm curious to know the twist rate in the Gallagher barrel and how does it do on targets at distance accuracy-wise.
Quite impressive transformation from the old revolver to the new! :mrgreen: Is the new barrel 5.5"?
That 455 gr. boolit @ 1300 + FPS seems ideal for griz....both SD situations and hunting! My guess is that it will be more effective than the .454 425 gr. from the Puma:
(455 x .510 x 1325) / 7000 = 44 KO
(425 x .454 x 1450) / 7000 = 40 KO
and can't beat the revolver for SD when compared to a long gun!
I think you got the perfect handgun for your environment, Snyd! :awesome:

How does it compare recoil-wise with the .454 350 gr. @ 1,275 from the 4.2" Redhawk?

[480guy]

Don't worry about 'surface hardening' from water dropping. Back when CastBoolits was with Amio(?) somebody did some testing and found boolits hardened through with water dropping. He also found a predicable hardening process over time and did not find an end point where the boolits softened again. Cast, water drop, size and lube immediately, and the boolit continues to harden over the next few weeks.

Great that you also confirmed that! When I read otherwise in the article Snyd had linked to, it came as quite a surprise, because I had never heard it before...

[bigboredad]

480 guy don't forget about accurate miles.com Tom can make a mold any way you want so you don't have to size down a 458 bullet you can get the weight you want the replay you want any diameter you choose and you can put the the crimp where you want and his prices for a 1 off full custom mold is very reasonable. Also Tom is very knowledgeable and can help you design the perfect bullet for its intended purpose

[480guy]

480 guy don't forget about accurate miles.com Tom can make a mold any way you want so you don't have to size down a 458 bullet you can get the weight you want the replay you want any diameter you choose and you can put the the crimp where you want and his prices for a 1 off full custom mold is very reasonable. Also Tom is very knowledgeable and can help you design the perfect bullet for its intended purpose

Thanks!!