My failure

[44man]

Used my .475 BFR with a hard boolit but I added a pound of stereo lead to the last batch----WRONG! This gun has dropped many deer but I screwed up as usual. The learning curve never ends.
The boolit is a WLN, 420 gr at 1329 fps. Seen a nice doe behind me. Her chest was in front of about an 8" tree. At about 50 yards I put a boolit through her chest into the tree, exploded the tree, bark torn off and split so it will fall. Gray deer hair blown into the bark.
She ran around the tree and over the hill, came back to run the flat, stopped and walked over the hill into fallen stuff I can't hardly walk. We searched for a long time but not a single drop of blood ANYWHERE.
Hole in the tree was exact for a double lung.
That thing about just a flat nose and a hole is proven wrong again.
I found a box of soft nose I cast long ago so they need loaded.
I was wrong again based on previous deer so I have to eat crow.

[Screwbolts]

Are you really trying to say / implying, you punched a .475 slug/rod completely threw both lungs and it has failed to die?

Ken

[Uncle R.]

:popcorn:

[44man]

Yes, but she most likely died where I could not find her. THAT is the pain.

[historicfirearms]

Sorry to hear of the lost deer. I have done the same and it is sickening. Thanks for sharing this story so we could all learn.

[white eagle]

so sorry to hear that

[tdoyka]

it happens, as much as we don't like it.

back in the day when i had two hands:mrgreen:, i was hunting my stand with a compound bow. a real nice 6pt(it had about an 18" spread with tines that went on forever) got to with 7 or 8 yards from me. it was broadside, more or less, so i lined up the shot and then i took it. the arrow went behind and below the buck's "elbow". the buck stood for a second or two and then it crashed off into the brush. i stayed in my stand for a half hour, thinking i got the big ol' 6pt. i can still see it, while the arrow did not completely go thru, i could see it was about up to the fletching. i got down and i could see blood, alot of blood. for about 40 or so yards, a blind man could have followed the buck. after 40 yards it began to dry up, at 150 yards the blood and the buck was gone. i tracked(well i tried to track it) it about 8 hours and then i did the same thing the next day. no buck. i got another buck during rifle season but i could not get the 6pt out of my head. then about 2 months later while i am hunting muzzleloader, the 6pt comes out of the brush, takes a look around, then it casually strolls off. i've seen him for three or four years(went to 10pt) before he died(natural causes).

what happened to me was the arrow went in behind and BELOW the "elbow" where there is a "sweet"(i call it unlucky) spot, there is no lungs or heart, just "flesh?"
http://www.skinnymoose.com/mostlyarchery/files/2011/09/Image000062-300x300.jpggo from the deer's "elbow" left and then past its heart and you can see nothing is there. a "sweet" spot. well, that is just a theory of mine.

[44man]

Yeah drives me nuts, said the .475 works with hard but went too hard. My fault.

[Screwbolts]

You may have actually hit high threw the lucky spot above lungs and below spine. It can completely heal if that is the case.

Ken

[tdoyka]

well,we can always go with 950 jdj!!! lol!!!:-P:groner:

Shooting .950 JDJ - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0klzzOuRX4)

[9.3X62AL]

Sorry to read about the lost deer. It happens on occasion--there are no "absolutes" in the terminal ballistics venue. I have converted all of my deer and large-varmint cast bullet hunting loads to Bruce B Soft Points, in an effort to avoid as best I can the circumstance described by 44 Man.

[44man]

Due to the hit on the tree and deer size, I must have been center chest. But Bruce and Veral are correct with soft points. I will not go to a HP with the power.

[OnHoPr]

Well, that is the time you need to get a roll of toilet paper and do a grid search forward a couple of hundred yards and out to the side a hundred yards or so in case the last 100 yds of the run was the classic curl to one side or the other of the initial direction the deer was heading. Keep an eye on the pieces of paper head high on brush and limbs and go as wide as you can go with the ability to still see the ground well enough.

[runfiverun]

that shot Tdoyka shows is almost the exact shot Littlegirl first put on her buck this year.
it just clipped the edge of the heart slicing the muscle neatly.
but not enough to hit a chamber.
the deer heart shot jump kicked then started walking away and she had to texas heart shot it.
the shot looked 100% fatal and the deer even reacted initially like it was a fatal shot.
but the autopsy sure showed a different story.

[popper]

GS hit one in the shoulder, deflected to the sternum and exploded enough to kill - jacketed 243 - he was using the ammo I told his Dad to get. Dad thinks the ammo is bad. Nope - fragged and tumbled like it should vs punching a hole & doing no damage. If it was double lung 475 there should have been blood on the tree.

[Thumbcocker]

I will never willingly take a heart shot on a deer.

[M-Tecs]

179547The so called "void" above the lungs on deer is 100% BS. Most of the deer anatomy diagrams have the spine to high per actual sectioned deer and x-rays.

Same for the location of the heart. Most of the deer anatomy diagrams have the heart too low per actual sectioned deer and x-rays.

http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=373507&forum=4

[M-Tecs]

179554

[M-Tecs]

179555

[Uncle R.]

I've had strange things happen with lung shots from time to time - especially with arrows but with bullets too. At least I thought they should have been lung shots. I've seen deer run amazingly long ways after fatal hits - sometimes with no external blood trail to speak of, especially if the hit through the ribs was at or above center of body or didn't make an exit hole. In my fairly extensive experience on deer, lung hits from powerful rifles with high velocity expanding bullets are usually very effective. They often turn the entire chest cavity into pulp, but sometimes strange things happen. As bullet speed goes down and / or expansion is reduced that almost explosive internal damage is reduced or eliminated. A shot through the ribs can be far from a sure thing.

I remember once I shot a small buck from maybe 50 yards with an expanding J-word in the .25-06. I hit him right where I wanted - right in the center of the rib cage just behind the shoulder. The bullet went through the ribs and out the other side leaving roughly a 1 inch exit hole. He ran and ran and ran - maybe 150 yards or more, leaving no blood trail. My buddies tracking along with me in the thin snow were laughing at me for missing such an easy shot. Because the snow made tracking easier we finally found that little buck, piled up dead in some thick brush. Take away the snow and it's likely we'd never have found him, and he was shot exactly where I was aiming - just behind the shoulder, through the ribs and halfway up the body, "right in the middle of the front half."

I've never had trouble like that with a shot through or just above the heart from a powerful rifle. They often run like crazy, but usually less than fifty yards or so and (especially if there's an exit wound) there will be a profuse blood trail. I've long ago changed my preferred aiming point on broadside shots and I consider a hit "halfways up the body" to be somewhat risky. One third of the way the body has been more reliable for me.

I'm sorry to read of your troubles, 44 Man. Strange things happen now and then, but if you aim about 3 or 4 inches lower I think you'll reduce the chance of such problems.

Best Regards:

Uncle R.

[M-Tecs]

179556

[M-Tecs]

179557

[RugerFan]

The so called "void" above the lungs on deer is 100% BS.

That is my experience as well. I once shot a deer a bit high behind the shoulder with a broadhead. Hit the spine and the deer dropped in it's tracks. It was still alive, but couldn't go anywhere because it's back legs didn't work anymore. By the time I got down from my tree stand and walked up to the deer it had expired. Upon gutting I found that one of the broadhead blades entered the deer down in a 6 o'clock position. That blade cut the top of the near-side lung and is what ultimately killed the animal. The lungs do in fact run right up underneath the spine.

[OnHoPr]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=179547&d=1477623897&thumb=1

This pic is relatively good, but not natural in setting. The spine has the upward bend in it while a deer standing back is straight or has a slight concave downward line. Roughly from the end of the sternum back is where the diaphragm and liver are. So, the back ribs are protecting the liver section. But, this line is always moving with breathing and full or not bellies. The heart I do believe lies right above the the sternum from the leg where the end of the humerus joint is on the sternum line laying towards the end of the sternum. Just on the other side of the diaphragm lies the actual stomach, not intestines, which is very close to the heart. Back about 30 years ago I bought a bubbaed spanish mauser in 7 x 57 with a 17.5" barrel. It was something like the remington 600s, but before the model 7. The platform is a decent little bolt rifle for slipping up and down hills with a lot of brush in between, but still be able to take a decent shot across a ridge or clear cut.I didn't reload for it and had to buy Rem 140 or 175s.

I was hunting with it the second week of season on a undulating hardwood ridge top with a bunch of little white pines. The deer had about two or three football fields tore up feeding on acorns. Just smoking my last smoke for the day a spikehorn come moseying towards me from a perpendicular angle. About 50 yds in front of me broadside I took the shot. The only thing was he was slightly down hill and my brush blind was a bit to high. So, I had to do the homey and sit on my tippy toes while I was on my butt and turn the rifle sideways like the homies do with a pistol, so the barrel would be above the brush blind. At the shot the mule kick and took off like a bat out of he[[. Dead deer was the assumption. Well, I got my gear together and went to the shot. There was about 3/4" of snow on the ground and there was bright red blood. I tracked it a couple of hundred yds until the ridge going downhill was met and then I said I would come back tomorrow to get it.

I acquired a hunting associate and we went back in about a 1.5 miles to where the last blood I had on the downward ridge and started tracking. We went another couple of hundred yards and the high morning sun started melting the southside hill snow. It got to be hands and knees tracking. There is/was one of my old and frequently used blinds about 150 yds away where we first stopped for a break before going to the last blood. I got a whiff of deer/gut scent there. So, the snow all melted and I told my associate to go to that blind to hunt and that I was going to check out a big hole a couple of hundred yards away and do a little grid search for the deer. I had already set my rifle against a tree when the hands and knees tracking began. He went to the blind and I started to move slow in the direction of the hole. I didn't go 75 yds and I seen a rock or ? about 75 yds away and started to move towards it because I didn't recall seeing a big rock there before. I got about 40 yds away and it was the deer that started to get up. A quick two handed snap shot with the SBH put it down. I walked towards it and about a minute after I got to it my associate came which was only about 125 yds away. The deer seen us take a break at the blind. All in all the deer went about a 1/3 of a mile from the shot and watched me walk out the night before.

The shot was above the sternum towards its end. The actual stomach had gassed up and was protruding through the exit hole about the size of a baseball stopping all blood dripage. The deer was ready to get up and go 16 or 17 hours later. There is where I can only see a void in the rib section. Tracking was all brighter red blood and no gut digestive droppings. IMO with rib or double lung shots, though my experience is only with the 06, 44, and mzzldr is with the 06 that it makes a slurry of blood in the chest cavity. There are no lungs partially inflated to pump out blood for tracking near the entry and exit holes. The 44 and mzzldr I have seen spray can blood trails because they are at least partially inflated enough to spray blood through the holes. Same way with the bow. Other than that you just get drips once in a while if the deer still has blood pressure from surrounding muscle bleeding. If the deers lungs are inflated under pressure then there is no voids in front of the diaphragm. If there were voids how would the diaphragm work the lungs to breathe.

[OnHoPr]

@ rugerfan - there are also major arteries that run along the back to feed the **** end of the deer.

[Screwbolts]

:popcorn:

[44man]

My trouble was where the deer headed. There is a huge area that looks like someone went in with a chainsaw and cut every tree to fall every which way, across each other, etc. You can't even enter there. It has also over grown with everything with spikes. It is the devils triangle of where we hunt. You can't even see a foot into it.
I don't know if the trees were cut or a twister went through.

[white eagle]

that slows you down for sure
don't quit looking on account of that
never fun or a good feeling it happpens

[44man]

We went as far as we could but that is where I don't have permission to go so have to keep low. Most let all recover but we have those liberals too. I don't like to sneak in. I got bashed once when an arrow shot at a chuck went into a field. I was looking for it so a tractor would not get a flat. The woman that seen me did not even own the property but I caught hell. Thankfully the owner let me look. Nothing worse then a crazy woman!
I knew the owner and her dog always found me, deaf Dalmatian, sweet thing. I would carry her home or drive her home if she followed me out to my truck. But she never let me hunt.
So we have lines where hunters can't go and they can't come here either. But most recovery is fine. Yet there are always those we can't deal with.
If you are looking for a deer on my land, please find it. But you know how it is with some. A friend would shoot a deer on his land and if it went into a neighbors--NO, stay out. I had it out with the jerk at a meeting once.

[BrentD]

We went as far as we could but that is where I don't have permission to go so have to keep low. Most let all recover but we have those liberals too. I don't like to sneak in.

Around here it is the conservatives that try to keep you from recovering a wounded animal on their property, not the liberals.

But that said, in this state, the landowner cannot stop you from walking (NOT DRIVING) on their land, while unarmed, to recover downed game, be it a pheasant that sailed over the fence, or a deer that jumped it before collapsing. But you have to leave your gun or bow at the fence, unless you have permission from the landower.

Obviously, not all states have the same laws, but you might check to find out what the REAL law says, not what internet hear-say says.

Brent

[ammohead]

You can post pictures from now till Xmas. If you put a 475 flat point of any hardness thru a deer and there is no blood and the deer gets away it can be from many reasons, none of which are the fault of the boolit.

[RugerFan]

@ rugerfan - there are also major arteries that run along the back to feed the **** end of the deer.

True. My point was that a blade protruding down from the spine cut the top of the left lung. This was just meant to illustrate that the lungs ride right up underneath the spine.

[lksmith]

I tend to aim halfway between the top of the shoulder and spine. It's close enough to the shoulder and the spine that the shot breaks the shoulder and the temporary wound cavity (or hydrostatic shock) disrupts the spinal cord to where it might as well be severed both would cause them to drop and they are usually dead by the time they hit the ground, with very little meat loss. That is unless you pull a stunt like I did and put a 150gr SST @3600fps in that area, lost both shoulders and half the back straps on that one, not to mention busted the guts.

[44man]

I have done it twice with the 45-70 and hard boolits. Seen the hits exact. The few recovered at well over 200 yards had pink lungs with a hole in both. I quit using it until I fix the boolits.
I had the same with the .500 JRH with deer going 100 to 120 yards with no blood trails. 440 gr WFN at 1350 fps, perfect hits, only a soft nose fixed it.
You need to see it yourself, maybe I can't convince anyone, so be it. Hole size does not matter if energy is not place where needed. All you have is a bigger, sharp stick.
Long ago a fella shot a big buck in PA as reported in the Game News I got each month. There was a huge growth in the chest. A warden found a 2" diameter stick through the heart. Seems there was a fire and the deer ran into a sharp, burned off branch and it healed up. I don't shoot 2" boolits.
I don't read stuff, have taken over 560 deer and have seen it all. Yet I still screw up. Don't talk placement, I know where to shoot or I don't. I know every inch in a deer since I cut all my own.
I do two things always, I back track any dead deer to observe the trail and I do a necropsy on every one. To say I know it all would make me more stupid then I am.

[BK7saum]

That is my experience as well. I once shot a deer a bit high behind the shoulder with a broadhead. Hit the spine and the deer dropped in it's tracks. It was still alive, but couldn't go anywhere because it's back legs didn't work anymore. By the time I got down from my tree stand and walked up to the deer it had expired. Upon gutting I found that one of the broadhead blades entered the deer down in a 6 o'clock position. That blade cut the top of the near-side lung and is what ultimately killed the animal. The lungs do in fact run right up underneath the spine.

Well, BS or not, I shot a small buck a little high behind the shoulder with a 3 blade muzzle broadhead. No blood to speak of but was not a pass through. About a foot of arrow and fetching was sticking out. Looked.and looked. No blood and no buzzards the following days.

The next year I shot the buck with my broadhead stuck in the offside shoulder blade and a short section of arrow shafts between the shoulder blade and spine.
So there does exist a void above the lungs and below the spine. Got the broadhead and arrow shaft to prove it.

[M-Tecs]

You shot above the spine not below it.

[BK7saum]

No. It was below the spine . The broadhead was buried into the spine of the scapula near the middle, but the arrow shaft had apparently worked it's way upward when it broke off. There was scar tissue on the intercostal tissue below the spine. You believe what you want. I'll believe the facts about the location of the healed wound that I observed when processing the deer.

I have spined more than one deer with an arrow and that location was about 3-4 inches above where this one was hit.

[44man]

I believe all of you. Here is what was found in deer's chests.179610 Healed up, shot in gun season but there was a third in a deer I gave away. I am afraid to dig in a deer to this day. Imagine meeting a broad head inside!
These were deep inside, no voids, next to the heart. Penetrated lungs, etc.

[M-Tecs]

No. It was below the spine . The broadhead was buried into the spine of the scapula near the middle, but the arrow shaft had apparently worked it's way upward when it broke off. There was scar tissue on the intercostal tissue below the spine. You believe what you want. I'll believe the facts about the location of the healed wound that I observed when processing the deer.

I have spined more than one deer with an arrow and that location was about 3-4 inches above where this one was hit.

3-4 inches below the spine is a center lung shot. This buck weighted 145 field dressed and the rack scored 121 5/8"

179617

[M-Tecs]

179620

one more on size.

[M-Tecs]

179621

Deer are not as big as some seem to believe. I took these a few years ago after a coworker was describing hits on deer that would not be possible unless the was the size of a bull moose.

[M-Tecs]

179622

[M-Tecs]

179623

[9.3X62AL]

My Dad and the guys we hunted with--my mentors--taught me to aim through the deer/bear/pig/coyote to its far side front shoulder irrespective of shot angle. I do "pass" on marginal shots or on marginal angles. I do this pretty reflexively after 50+ seasons afield, and the farthest any critter has gone was 20 yards (my most recent deer). I hit it a little farther back than I like. In most cases, my critters drop at the shot or at most make one to two steps.

[MT Gianni]

I once shot a small buck and left his heart loose in the chest, totally disconnected from its vessels. He ran at a dead run with no blood trail for 35 yards. When I crossed his trail 100 yards later doing a circle walk, there was blood out both sides as if it was poured. He was 15 feet further. I have also gutted deer that the autopsy showed no reason it was fatal other than spinal shock. Animals do weird things, but based only on my experiences a fp 357 is a sure killer on deer chest shots.

[RugerFan]

179622

Excellent graphic. I'm wondering if the lungs might contract a bit at the peak of exhale compared to inhale. Is that possible? Might explain our different experiences.

I also know of deer that have actually lived through a less-than-devastating lung hit and survived. I would not have believed it had I not witnessed the event. It's usually a one lung hit, but I suppose it could happen with two. Whitetail deer are amazingly resilient.

[PositiveCaster]

I can't believe that the OP, apparently an experienced hunter, would condemn a proven hunting boolit after a single bullet failure. Most hunters with much experience know that sometimes a good hit does not drop the animal immediately, regardless of the load used. Other posters here have confirmed this. Of course the OP should use whatever he wants for whatever reason, it to state that the bullet design is at fault is silly.

At least no one has said that the bullet was going "too fast" to transfer energy...


.

[44man]

179620

one more on size.
Therein lies the problem, the wrong boolit gets through before energy. I firmly believe the pressure wave from a big FN will create a secondary channel with no damage and collapses back. You have a hole that skin or fat blocks as the deer moves. Doesn't matter if the hole is .357 or .500.
I am going to quit shooting FMJ's. I now worry about the .44 since I used the same alloy. I will be casting soft points before the next opening day.

[white eagle]

thats why I like gas checks and hollow points
less to worry about
save the hard for paper or t/rex

[taco650]

Therein lies the problem, the wrong boolit gets through before energy. I firmly believe the pressure wave from a big FN will create a secondary channel with no damage and collapses back. You have a hole that skin or fat blocks as the deer moves. Doesn't matter if the hole is .357 or .500.
I am going to quit shooting FMJ's. I now worry about the .44 since I used the same alloy. I will be casting soft points before the next opening day.

44man,

I've been following this thread since the day you started it and I'm only going to suggest you not try to "re-invent the wheel". You've killed over 500 deer in your life so you know where to place your shots. You also have killed them with many different kinds of loads and handguns and you've developed loads that have worked very well already. Stay with what you know works! Don't beat yourself up because you lost one, IT HAPPENS! You weren't negligent in your shot placement or anything else. Yes, maybe your alloy was off from what you've used before but I'm not convinced that caused you to lose this deer. I think its just more like bad luck or Murphy's Law or something along those lines. We've all been doing it right and had failures. I'm very confident you'll fill your freezer this year!:)

[44man]

You could be right but my boolits with a pound of stereo added to 19# of WW has a softer BHN but more tin and antimony sure makes them tougher. Straight WW boolits must have been upsetting a little.
Of all the deer I killed with this gun only one made 30 yards, heart shot, the rest just dropped, belly up.179707 This was straight WW. She was moving at about 55 yards. I should have stayed with what worked. Searching for more accuracy bit my butt!

[Digital Dan]

Sort of the opinion that basing future actions on a sample of one is sometimes not the best path. As pointed out previously there are many variables in the equation of terminal ballistics, few of which we have any control of.

Never lost a deer or any other piece of big game in my life, but have had some serious tracking adventures. One of the most curious was a whitetail doe that had her heart exploded by a 150 gr Corelokt at a range of about 35 yards. Thru and thru shot, well placed and subsequent events clearly showed that. The heart was little more than fragmented mush. Within the first 30 yards the copious discharge of blood ended, leaving a trail that would have made Sam Peckinpah proud. 30 yards later there was no blood on the ground at all. I had taken the shot in an area of a pine planting and the nearest cover was about 100 yards distant over a dirt road. I proceeded to the point where she had entered the woodline and followed coarse tracks, dropping leafs of toilet paper along the way as the cover was quite dense.

After several changes in direction and about 20 minutes of careful tracking I found her stretched across a large log...close to 200 yards from where she was mortally wounded. Quite a journey without a heart, no????

[white eagle]

definitely amazing resilience

[44man]

I agree. The worst ever said is a deer is easy to kill. Based on being small, but they are like a Toyota engine. Maybe the Energizer rabbit!
However I want balance, dead fast with meat to eat. You have seen the horrible pictures I posted. I can't justify a HP with my guns.

[OnHoPr]

I agree. worst ever said is a deer is easy to kill. Based on being small, but they are like a Toyota engine. Maybe the Energizer rabbit!
However I want balance, dead fast with meat to eat. You have seen the horrible pictures I posted. I can't justify a HP with my guns.


They GENERALLY are adequately killed when firearm/ammo combos are used in the manner in of the scenario that the firearm/ammo is designed for. There are exceptions to that statement though, and they can be very resilient at times. Many times with inexperience the firearm/ammo combo is used out of the context it was designed for. Then there are times when they actually do go bang flop unexpectedly from something a bit lighter of the firearm/ammo combo of the norm.

There in the parameters of the "I want balance, dead fast with meat to eat" is the major concern of the firearm/ammo combo and how it is used in its context that many a truer hunter strives for. One other scenario to be considered is the terrain after the shot, whether it is in the grasslands or in a tag alder or cedar swamp and how hard the tracking might be. Shootin a critter and being able to see it run for a 1/4 mile before it drops in the 15 seconds is a lot different than shootin a critter 10 yards out the the thickets with water on the ground.

[Texas by God]

I'm sorry you lost that deer. I've seen big bucks drop with one .22 Hornet to the lungs and I've seen small does run a long way shot in the lungs with a 30-06. You can't predict how fast any animal will die. That is above our pay grade. Take tiny comfort in the fact that nature's cleanup crew got fed. Better luck to you in the future. Best, Thomas.

[popper]

M-tec's pics are very helpful. We do need to remember what the heart & lungs do for the animal. Heart is the pump, lungs are the O2 exchanger. Lung shots stop oxygen to the blood. Heart shots stop the pump. Either MAY cause a large leak. The body attempts to stop the leak/keep vital parts working (like hypothermia). There is still O2 in the blood and muscles & a good dose of adrenalin (survival instinct). A spine/CNS shot MAY drop it. Local nervous system will keep the muscles (legs) moving without the CNS. Hydrostatic shock creates more damage AND can cause nervous system shut down (DownRightThere effect - not DeadRightThere). Otherwise the 'dead deer running' is correct. The loss of a 'game' animal is unfortunate, we don't know what happens. 44man is just trying to correct what he thinks went wrong - all any of use can do. Was the boolit too hard? Who knows. Use soft large HP for lung shots and easy tracking? Use hard and shoulder shots to break legs and immobilize? Super accurate for spine shots? To each his own (choice). I shot a running pig @ 25 with hardcast 40SW - hit the butt, took out the insides and front leg. No blood trail for 50 to the fence where he turned and went another 50 - actually stopped at the fence/treeline. Broken leg didn't slow him any. Blood trail was from the mouth.

[Geezer in NH]

Her chest was in front of about an 8" tree. At about 50 yards I put a boolit through her chest into the tree, exploded the tree, bark torn off and split so it will fall. Gray deer hair blown into the bark.
She ran around the tree and over the hill, came back to run the flat, stopped and walked over the hill into fallen stuff I can't hardly walk. We searched for a long time but not a single drop of blood ANYWHERE.

When they bleed out complete the don't bleed. I read this as look harder sorry you cannot walk but when you can't, hunt with ones who can and know how to track.

Sorry but on you nothing else matters other than an excuse IMHO. It sucks when you loose a deer but who cares how much experience you have does not change the outcome.

[TXGunNut]

That's a tough loss, sorry you didn't recover the deer. It's amazing how much ground a dead deer can cover. Folks that say it can't happen haven't hunted long enough. It's also amazing how little cover it takes to hide a deer, I've recovered deer that I've walked past more than once. When they crawl into a briar fortress there isn't much we can do.

[44man]

The way it has grown up around here is amazing. We sit in the stands this season and can only see a short way. Had the same problem a few seasons ago with a dead deer. I heard her fall after taking a .44. Pretty close so I just walked over and could not find her. I had blood so started tracking and she was next to a log and I had walked the other side at first. I wasn't more then 10 steps from her but could not see her.
Now the brush is worse so Don wants to come and trim some.
If deer run the other direction, I know where they are going but going behind they will get to the downfalls and without blood you can never find one. I can't even crawl through there. If I did find one I would need a chopper to get one out. Some of the downfalls are 4' around and stacked all over each other with razor blades growing in between.
I got into the stuff once with a nylon orange vest from work. I got caught and friends had to help me get loose. Even hard to get out of the vest!
The funniest I ever seen was my friend with new clothes. That soft stuff. He came back in tatters with even his butt hanging out. Most use canvas when going into the stuff. Rabbit hunting stuff.

[bowfishn]

Here in Vermont because of the same problem with finding a dead Deer that is in a swamp or thick stuff without a lot of blood, we can use a tracking dog that is trained to find them. These dogs must stay on the leash when tracking, not much can hide from a dogs nose. I think it was a wise thing for fish and game to allow this, less deer go unclaimed.

Leashed Tracking Dog to Recover Deer or Bear: A hunter who believes he or she has legally killed or wounded a deer or bear during hunting season may engage a person who has a “Leashed Tracking Dog Certificate” issued by the Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department to track and recover the animal during the season or within 24 hours after the season ends. Except as otherwise permitted in bear hunting, no person may use a dog to track dead or wounded deer or bear. A permitted bear houndsman may not pursue any bear for any hunter beyond a half-hour after sunset.
Applications for the “Leashed Tracking Dog Certificate” cost $25.00. First-time leashed tracking dog certificates, valid for five years, cost $100.00 for residents and $200.00 for nonresidents. Applicants must pass a test. Renewal certificates are $125.00 for residents and $225.00 for nonresidents.

[GLynn41]

.44man you are the most detailed and dedicated hunter I have ever known about-- your posts are always worth reading- you have changed some what how I cast to hunt -- no more wdww only ac ww --good meplat in my bigger cal (.410 GNR) and hp in my lessor .41 GNR and straight ..41 --don't knock your self about.. - the greatness of this site is guys like you for the rest of us to learn with and from
as to aiming points I aim for the opposite shoulder for an angled pass through-- or use the near side leg about a third of the way up

[Blackwater]

We all hate badly to lose a deer, 44man, but if it's any consolation, it can happen to anybody, even the really good shots. I had the opportunity to talk to a couple of pathologists outside the courtroom waiting to testify, and they were willing to discuss wounds and the variables, and why some seemingly hard hit survive, while some seemingly just grazed die. It was both illuminating and confusing, at once. Sometimes, the wounds just nick internal organs rather than hit them with much real force, and these are generally the ones that exhibit survival in seemingly unsurvivable hits. On the other hand, some fringe hits, if they hit an artery (like in femoral artery in the leg) can result in speedy expiration. And both of them said that sometimes there's really no real medical explanation, and it's been a puzzlement why some survive and some who are hard hit die. So if a licensed physician and pathologist specialist can't always tell why people (or game) die and why some survive or go long distances before piling up, I doubt any of us will ever figure it out here. And all anyone I know can say for sure is like Gilda Radner used to say, "It happens."

I've often wondered if it had something to do with some's brains having stored up extra oxygen, or if the mind just doesn't know what to do, it just dies due to indecision and fright, or what???? I've wondered, but don't have any real theories. Just questions. I know I've dressed out deer that looked really hard hit and I'd have expected it to fall DRT, but instead, they ran like Moody's goose for a good ways before piling up, and they weren't heart shots, eihter, because I checked. Then some that seemed not hurt too badly fell DRT.

I think we all know that the brain and the endocrine systems can have sometimes startling effects. But nobody I know or have even heard of can really explain these anomalies. Wish I could help, but at least maybe this makes you feel a little better?

[9.3X62AL]

Full agreement with Blackwater's post. Self-righteous naysayers should just stay low and keep dark, it is easy to criticize others giving their best efforts--while seated behind the comfy firewall a computer provides. The Cadre Of The Perpetually Indignant are a tiresome lot.

[44man]

Thanks for the comfort, You are all good. However I just cast a pile of soft points. You might get pictures of burger on the ground! :mrgreen:

[Blackwater]

I doubt it's a lot of comfort, really, but it's just something I think we all, if we hunt and shoot enough, run into on the rare occasion, and it's frustrating to know you made a good shot and it STILL got away. But I guess that's why they call it "hunting" instead of "getting?" The more I've tried to learn about wounds, the less I seem to really understand, past a certain elementary point. The body, ours or a deer's, is a highly complex system of various systems, and any one of them can make or break a given shot. I just wish I understood these anomalies, but I don't, and I don't think anyone does, really. When real life pathologists tell you that sometimes, things that happen just can't be explained scientifically, I doubt any of us will find the key to it all.

Sure keeps a fella' busy musing on it, though! But what would life be without a mystery now and then?