What are your markmanship standards?

[PerpetualStudent]

What's your idea of a competent shooter, a good shooter, and a real marksman?
Or alternatively, what standards do you work to maintain/attain?

Obviously the standards will depend on what firearm is being used and what the application is. Deer hunters have their Pie Plate (or paper plate) while air gun small game hunters have their 1 inch circle. And that's good for their specialization but I'm looking for more general standards.

Things like "a competent revolver shooter can keep a cylinder inside an 8 inch circle at 21 ft shooting double action only while a good shooter keeps it 4 in" or "a competent rifleman can keep X number of rounds on paper doing the mad minute drill while a Marksman can do Y rounds"

Mainly I'm curious how you guys judge shooting and possibly I'll use them as goals for my own shooting.

[Hickory]

Marksmanship standards;

Plinking=To miss less then the last time I was plinking.
Target shooting=To do better then the last target.
Hunting=Kill'em with the first shot.

[white eagle]

very firearm specific
handgun 50 yards kill zone specific for a cylinder
but make sure my first shot hits where I want it to
rifle depends on cal.strive for a 1"or less at 100 yds
for a scoped rifle for a 3 shot group

[runfiverun]

I judge it by if everything is staying in one area of the target.
all to the high right or left or whatever, the sights can be adjusted.

if they are just scattered about that's not good shooting.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I like the 4 minute rule that is 1 inch at 25 yards ,2 inches at 50 yards , 4 inches at 100 , 8 inches at 200 and so on although once you get past 300 the rules change a bit with estimating drop for distance

you should be able to hold that with the majority of your shots and generally don't need any "special" gun to do it

but if everyone could hold 4 minutes from prone or rested out to 300 yards we really would be a nation of riflemen

that's for rifle here are some great practice targets http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=9833.0


for pistol hitting a 12oz beer can slow fire at 30 feet

for rapid fire 2 hand grip holding the A zone of a USPSA target out to 30 feet that is about 6 inches wide by 12 inches tall if you prefer a IDPA parget with a 9 inch circcle at high center mas sure that is fine also , but hit them both with controlled pairs

these are not perfectionist standards they are quite attainable by most anyone with normal equipment who is willing to learn how and practice

[OBIII]

10 out of 10 X ring, 500 yards, open iron sights. Anything less and I am P.O.'d at myself. :)
OB

[Blackwater]

Interesting question, and most highly relevant to the state of shooting and shooters in our land today. In answer to the OP, my standards are:

1. competent shooter - a shooter who can handle the gun safely enough to not hurt himself or those around him, and can hit an 81/2x11 target with a handgun most every shot at 25 yds. when firing fairly rapidly and offhand; With a rifle, one who can shoot up to within 3" of his rifle's potential off sandbags; with a shotgun, one who can hit doves with about 15-20% of his shots.

2. a good shooter - to me this is a guy who can standing with a handgun, consistently keep all his bullets in about a 3" group at 25 yds. or less; with a rifle, one who can shoot within 1" of his rifle's potential off a rest at 100 yds.; with a shotgun, one who can hit about 30% of his shots, and doesn't shoot at birds that are too far away (he can estimate range accurately in the field).

3. a real marksman - this is the cream of the crop, i.e., a pistolero who can keep almost all of his shots within 1" at 25 yds. assuming his gun and loads will do that; with a rifle, a man who can shoot right up to very near the rifle and load's potential; with a shotgun, anyone who shoots above 50-60% on birds and clays.

That's just my standards though. I always worked to be the marksman, but fell miserably short with the shotgun, because (I think) of being cross eye dominant. With the handgun and rifle, I got to be pretty darn good, but always tried to shoot with people who were better than I was and could shade me regularly. Just kept me focused and constantly evaluating my own performances and techniques, loads and guns. And that's the way to get better the quickest - just keep shooting with folks who are better than you. When you can't find anyone as good as you are, you know you've reached your goal. Not many get there, though.

And now, I'm just trying to preserve as much ability as I can of what I once had. I need to practice a lot more these days. Who doesn't, though?

And the trick to getting better is learning HOW to get better. Just practicing repetitively without a plan or goal or intention is just practicing, and therefore ingraining, any bad habits we may have. Only perfect practice makes perfect shooters ..... or something fairly close.

[dtknowles]

Question is too general, complete answer would require a book.

or

I don't have a standard, I shoot as well as I do and I practice so I don't get worse, I was better but I don't shoot as much as I used to and my eyes are not getting younger.

I have some guns that shoot better than those I used to have but this better shooting is not better marksmanship just better equipment.

If the OP would like to say what kind of shooting he wants to do, then we could help him set goals for his equipment and his abilities. The two examples in the OP, Double Action Revolver shooting and the Mad Minute with a rifle I have no comment, don't do either and am not interested.

Tim

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Blackwater, those are pretty accurate categories by my standards. I appreciate that you added the qualifier of what the gun is capable of. Myself, I'm way better with a shotgun than rile and handgun, but I enjoy all.

[Traffer]

Yup, Does one even have to ask?

10 out of 10 X ring, 500 yards, open iron sights. Anything less and I am P.O.'d at myself. :)
OB

[twc1964]

Well, with a good revolver at 25 yards, I strive for 2.5" or less groups. Combat autos...2.5-3.5" groups. I don't shoot most of my long guns that often so not so sure about them.

[country gent]

I kind of liked the NRA classification system of a given percentage of a score to rate shooters, This was done ove a series of matches or 120 rds ( Ibelieve this was the number of rounds). If a shooter is capable of xx% or so of the clean score it shows his compentency level. Alot affects this position, conditions, firearm, ammo, distance. A person shooting strictly offhand or standing isnt going to produce groups that match his bench groups. The one thing I learned in years of competitive shooters was not to "compete" against the Top shooters but to compete against myself, If todys match was better than last weeks then I was a winner. Trying to compare yourself to others with more experience, practice time, and or more developed skill levels is just not accurate. As is the other way comparing yourself against shooters not as advanced as you are, niether are accurate. Comparing you scores to your previous scores is somewhat more accurate and shows the improvements. Better your scores every match and soon your running with the top shooters.

[OnHoPr]

Like dtk mentions the venues and purposes are to broad and the book would need a wide spectrum of writers to write it. I sort like Hickory's concepts cause I am getting old and never really shot competition. Paper, steel, and clay are a lot different than fur and feathers. For an example, I use to work at Darton a few decades ago. A competition shooter was using and advertising the Darton brand and pretty good. Though, when taken out for a hunt, accuracy had a turn in the opposite direction. If you are in competition then you need to compete. If you are hunting you need to know the first shot should kill generally. But, something like dove hunting is more of a social gathering like a number of small game venues, so there will be misses. Patterns are different than single projectiles. If you are plinking or getting the feel of a new acquisition then have fun and/or understand. If you are working up loads understand and think. Its a google of scenarios.

[C.F.Plinker]

Use the NRA target for slow fire at the distance you are shooting at. A good shot will have 10 out of 10 in the black shooting slow fire offhand from a standing position. The not so good shooters will have some out of the black but all in the scoring rings.

If you shoot from a rest or off sandbags you are testing the firearm and the ammunition more than yourself. In that case all of the shots should be in the 10 ring.

[Preacher Jim]

When I have 10 in one hole I will be satisfied with myself. Anything less keep practicing and developing

[45workhorse]

10 out of 10 X ring, 500 yards, open iron sights. Anything less and I am P.O.'d at myself. :)
OB
With a 20 MPH cross wind:drinks:

[Geezer in NH]

When I have 10 in one hole I will be satisfied with myself. Anything less keep practicing and developing
Winner!!!!!!!!!!! :awesome:

[TCFAN]

In my case it is a revolver.A Smith 686 with a Match Dot 2. I shoot one hand standing at 25 yards on the slow fire pistol target. My goal is to shoot a clean target 100 10 X on every target. Unfortunately that has never happened. My average is around the high 80's to the mid 90's. I only shoot against myself and I keep a note book of my scores.The revolver is able to shoot a perfect score from a machine rest but my 73 year old hands can not.I usually shoot 3 or 4 times a week shooting 5 ten round target each time.

[garym1a2]

In match shooting its easy to tell. In NRA high power expert class mean decent shooter, master class means a good shooter, Hi-Master means a very good shooter.(I only made expert). In Uspsa the classes go from D to C to B to A to Master to Grandmasters. C class means you shoot a decent match for 4 matches and are complement. A or B class means a good fast shooter. The masters are in the top 5%, the GMs are pros or good as pros. I only got to high C class.

[waksupi]

10 out of 10 X ring, 500 yards, open iron sights. Anything less and I am P.O.'d at myself. :)
OB


Off hand.

[popper]

I went for practice today, did reasonable, for me. 170gr PB @ 1400 from 336. Sitting but offhand set the scope to 4x and tried acquiring the target quickly (like running pig hunting) @ 50, jack the lever and repeat - 4 rounds in the tube. Can't stand or fire faster than 1/sec. at this range. IMO I need to practice this more.
edit: Don - how do you get those clays to act like dove? They come right at you, turn for a passing shot. You get a lead on them and then when you pull the trigger, they put on the airbrake and flare. Darn. Today's target.
179484

[dverna]

If you flock with turkeys your standards will differ than if you soar with eagles. One thing I have learned....if you want to improve your performance, hang around and shoot with better shooters and those who compete.

Short story. My buddies wife is into dog trials. At the higher level these trials are done with live birds that are released with a type of sling shot. The birds are released and shot. I was invited by my buddy to help him do the shooting. BTW both of us shoot trap competitively. At the end of the trial the organizers were astounded. They had never had a trial where no bird was wounded or lost. You can imagine how important it is for each handler and their dog to get a clean kill. If the bird is not hit, they must have a do over and that can have a negative affect. A wounded bird presents a different challenge than a dead one.

They were so appreciative we each got a $50 gift certificate for Cabela's and they wanted us to come to their next major trial. Many handlers smiled and chatted with us as we put away our guns because none had a false start. I never did it again....after the first dozen birds it felt like murder.

Don Verna

[44man]

Off hand with my Swede at 100 yards.179482 3 shots.
Off hand SBH at 100. 3 shots. 179483
Not today, it goes away, my targets grew wings and legs and run all over the place.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

the AQT qualifier is a great test to determine your competency level behind a rifle these are the Appleseed qualifier print and hang at 25meters 82 feet

Stage 1. fire 10 rounds mag in 2 minutes standing

Stage 2. 10 rounds loaded 2 and 8 fired from sitting , but start standing unloaded and at the beginning of 55 seconds transition to sitting load and fire 2 then 8 rounds

Stage 3. 10 rounds loaded 2 and 8 fire from prone , but start standing unloaded , at the beginning of 65 seconds transition to prone load and fire 2 then 8

stage 4. 10 rounds one mag start prone and loaded 5 minute stage 4 counts for double points

under 125 seek help get good instruction
125 to 169 "marksman" back to the basics drills , finding NPOA natural point of aim, breathing , position ,squeezing the trigger

170 to 209 "sharp shooter" your almost there figure out whats holding you back , check your positions , practice to get npoa faster ,practice

210 or higher " expert/rifleman" keep practicing it is a perishable skill if have it all right you should be able to repeat this and be at or very close to rifleman every time barring malfunction

stage 1 http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9833.0;attach=1260 0

stage 2,3,4 http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9833.0;attach=1260 1


if only everyone was marksman or higher

[slim1836]

Minute of hog, minute of man if need be.

Slim

[robg]

To hit where and what you want within the capability of the gun every time .that's not me but I'm working on it.

[leadman]

My skill with a rifle was much better before the doctor limited me to shooting off a Leadsled. The last Washington's Birthday match I shot in I did better than about 2/3 of the shooters. The range was 200 yards, various positions. I'm a lefty and used my Remington 1903a3 with cast boolits at about 1,600 fps, no optics. I was competing against some shooters who were using AR15s with optics and shot matches regularly. I did fire the best score on my squad but don't recall what it was. I felt like I did very good that day.
I generally like to shoot my hunting rifles off the Leadsled into groups less than 2" at 100 yards and strive for 1" or less. If I can do 3" off standing I am pleased. Over 5" and I kick myself and practice more.
Now that age is determining my ability to shoot I carry either a tripod with V yoke to a stand, or collapsible shooting sticks when walking.
With a revolver I like to shoot less than 3" at 50 yards off a rest and with my Encore/Contenders less than 2" at 100 yards off a rest. With the Encore/Contenders in the field, prone, bipod, 3" at 100 is good.

[mozeppa]

I'd be happy with hitting the side of a barn from inside the barn!:mrgreen:

[dubber123]

Off hand.

Seen him do it. It was actually over his shoulder holding a mirror, but he hates to brag :)

[dragon813gt]

10 shots, 1 mile, one hole, offhand w/ a 25mph crosswind. Anything less and you can't shoot worth a lick :p

[Dave C.]

Rifle shooting is a skill, Pistol shooting is an art.

[shooter2]

Yep! Put all bullets through the same hole.

[claude]

Minute of rock, across the river, smoke is an indication of a good hit....

[jcwit]

One hundred yards with center fire rifle, off a rest, .223 cal, 5 shot group, never more than 5 to 8 thousands over caliber.

Fifty Yards with rimfire .22, off a rest, 5 shot group, about the same.

Handgun whether a target model or just a 45 auto, single hold 25 or 50 yards, doesn't matter, 5 rounds anywhere on the target or backer, is really something!!!!!

Offhand with most any of my rifles at 70 yards, hits of clay pigeon 9 or 10 out of 10.

[Harter66]

I have observed some very skilled shooters . I don't consider myself to be one .
A competent shooter should be able to shoot their choice of arms to some minimum standard suited to the arm . In a perfect world a bedroom gun ought to shoot 12" or less at however far the longest shot would be in your situation. If you live in a 12 by 70 trailer you ought to be able to do it at 25 yd . A hunting pistol well that's a broad street to cross let's stick with it being 30 cal plus and over 1.285 long in a whatever platform as a minimum 1" per 10 yd for your group . Obviously if you shoot a 460 , 45-70 or 500 and plan on trying a 200 yd antelope you need to be a better shooter .
Rifles ,this becomes a train wreck . For this I'm calling a 14" single shot 30-30 a rifle even if it is a contender pistol. 2" per 100 yd give or take for your rifle . Obviously you can't expect a 4" group at 200 yd from a rifle that will only give you 3 " at 100. This assumes that you have a 1 inch rifle from a lead sled and you can earnestly shoot 3" at 100 , 5 @200 ,7@300 etc from a decent rest .

Pistol cal carbine is a mess too. I have a 460 smith carbine coming it's really a rifle and the Colts carbine and rifle literally go sideways beyond 75 yd so I'd hold those to half the hunting pistol .

Skilled I would half the above standards and half it again for expert but from all positions.

[ole 5 hole group]

All I know is a high master is the cream of the crop and he can keep 10 rounds inside of 4" with the majority inside of 3.5" at 50 yards, standing on his hind legs one-handed. At 25 yards he can keep all 10 rounds within 3.3" with the majority within 2" - this off his hind legs, one handed shooting 5-shot relays in 20 and 10 seconds.

There was a time when that 25 yard stuff was pretty much child's play but that 50 yard shooting was a tad beyond my ability.

To my way of thinking anyone holding a consistent 4 inch 5 shot group at 100 yards off-hand with a rifle is a fine marksmen and holding a consistent 3 to 4 inch group off hand at 25 yards with a handgun is doing fine.

Shooting from a bench, if one is an experienced shooter and handles the firearm well, he should be able to shoot close to the firearms capability with a proper trigger and sufficient powered scope. If using iron sights, he's shooting his best average group, which can be impressive, none the less. There are firearms that are much more capable than others.

We all have wiggled & wobbled just perfectly for a group or two in our lives and for some - they believe that particular group is what they can shoot on a "good" day - maybe, but I'm doubtful, unless they only have 1 to 3 good days in their entire life.;)

[ghh3rd]

10 out of 10 X ring, 500 yards, open iron sights. Anything less and I am P.O.'d at myself.
Uh, like I'm calling BS, man, unless you are resting it against a tree, and it's daytime! :-)

[imashooter2]

I used to think I was a good shooter, until I shot with people who really are good.

It took me years to get to USPSA Revolver B Class. And that is the bottom edge of B. It is pretty humbling to come off a stage thinking, "Man! I really nailed that one." Then watch a Grand Master do it in half the time with more points.

[Wolfer]

I can generally shoot a 1/2" at any reasonable range with my 50 cal muzzleloader as long as I have a big target and only shoot one shot!

Im primarily a hunter. All my practice is from field positions. I don't consider myself to be a really good shot but while I won't take a shot that I'm not just pretty sure I can make. However I generally need a very small window of opportunity to get a shot.
Calling coyotes has taught me a lot about small windows of opportunity.

[OBIII]

M-14, prone, 20 minute timed fire. Beautiful day, no wind.
:) I wish Rick :-(
No mirror, used the reflection off the observers mirror shades. :rolleyes:

[The Governor]

I've been shooting Rifleman at Project Appleseed.
https://appleseedinfo.org/
Pretty doggone proud of that too.

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/burley_bucket/rrifleman.jpg
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/burley_bucket/inferno.jpg

[Hick]

I'm not a marksman, and and artificial lenses in both eyes (no close focus), but this is what makes a good day for me:

5 out of 5 on 3" gongs at 100 yards, open sights, fore-end hand on a sandbag (30-30, M1 Garand and 32WS)

2" gongs at 100 yards, same position, with a scoped rifle (223 Remington)

6 out of 6 on Dinner plate size gongs at 25 yards left handed, right handed and two-handed, all fired double-action (S&W 38 Special)

[opos]

At 79 I'm pretty happy with just getting out to shoot now and then...my "standards" sort of went out the window when I had my eyes go bad a few years ago and when my arthritis got severe....I shoot when I am comfortable and set the targets where I can enjoy what I consider a decent score...I was a very competent shooter as a younger man but like many...getting on has taken it's toll...I love to shoot red dot sights and all my rifles are scoped...I can shoot minute of angle with my 25-06 and 7x57 where some years ago with hand loads I was way inside one minute...my 8mm Mauser and my Enfield 30-06 and just minute of whatever and I am plenty happy with that...Enjoy the "standards" while you are young...The target image is 50 rounds of factory from my CZ97 with half left hand and half right hand...all freehand with factory sights at 25 yards...not good but good enough for me.

179498

[DougGuy]

For me, marksmanship and shooting requirements/preferences changes with whatever I am engaged in. Used to be I would seek to put all of the several hundred rounds I would take to the range into one raggedy little hole the size of a quarter at the 7yd distance with 3-4 different 1911s. That's a whole morning's worth of shooting, in one hole, no flyers allowed. Got to where the ring around the X would most times still be intact with maybe 1 or 2 breaks, rangemaster used to tease me saying I paid 15cents for the target and only used a nickel's worth of it. That was the goal at that point in time and I was satisfied that most days I could go and accomplish exactly the task I set out to do.

Moving to the deer woods, I have always maintained that I want to know within the size of a tennis ball where the boolit strike will be, so I could do this with a handgun at 50yds but maybe not 75, so I hunted with a handgun and a rifle or shotgun loaded with slugs. I considered this fist sized kill zone to be minute of bambi and is a realistic expectation. I had a rifle that would put 3 rounds into a guitar pick at 200yds and often hit within half an inch of point of aim at much greater distances. That was the goal at that point in time and I was satisfied that most trips to the woods, I could accomplish exactly that task and take meat home with a quick, humane kill.

Now I don't shoot hardly any, don't really have range facilities anywhere near, so I am satisfied with my age and somewhat degrading accuracy due to not shooting for months at a time, so I put together batches of loads I want to go test and see if any are worth developing, then I end up putting that development on the back burner for whatever reason, and my shooting is WAY much slowed down over the years. I'm just not setting expectations these days and if I get where I am shooting more again, I will at that point in time re-evaluate my skills and see once again what I can accomplish.

Not so much interested in lumping these old dusty shooting skills into the various grades of excellence. It is what it is and that's what it is.. My freezer has meat, all the guns work, Idon't know what more I really need to do.

[jcwit]

Any of you ever get a chance to watch or attend classes put on by this master, "do so".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Zins

[Plate plinker]

I used to think I was a good shooter, until I shot with people who really are good.

It took me years to get to USPSA Revolver B Class. And that is the bottom edge of B. It is pretty humbling to come off a stage thinking, "Man! I really nailed that one." Then watch a Grand Master do it in half the time with more points.

Ditto that. Although my problem is I shout high points but not fast enough.

[tygar]

Well, this is another before & now question. At 70 I can't see the iron sites on anything, unless using special lenses, & then can't see the target to identify it.

Before, with the other guy that said 10 in the 10 ring at 500, rifle. Pistol 10 ring to 50, in the black at 100, offhand.

Now, without a scope, all in the black, rifle & pistol, out to as far as I can see it.

Pistol with a scope, 10 ring to 100, with "any" of my LR hunting rifles, moa to 500 (except levers, then whatever they can do), Fclass, LR, 1k guns 2.5" at 500, 8" at 1k. Dangerous game bolt rifles, MOA to 200 (3 shot instead of 5), double rifles, 2" at 50, 4 shots.

Offhand, can't shot for @#$% anymore. Have the shakes & need a rest or kneeling, sitting, prone.

I literally won't keep a 338 & up bolt gun that won't shoot close to MOA at least at 200, and expect close to that at 300.

Small bore maybe MOA but mostly .5 MOA.

Guess that's why I have so many customs, although, so many of the newer rifles shoot MOA & better that it's almost not cost advantageous to make customs anymore.

In combat, anything that puts them down & out works for me.

[castalott]

I watched 'Uncle Larry' bust 3 one gallon jugs of water off hand at over 300 yards with 3 shots...

I thought that was really good until I seen him shoot silhouette!

I can't let all this drive me crazy.... I try to be the best I can be (some days a lot worse than others) but I do it for the fun and relaxation of it...

[tygar]

Uh, like I'm calling BS, man, unless you are resting it against a tree, and it's daytime! :-)

Pretty sure he is talking prone. I for sure was talking prone. Standard in military match.

[Blackwater]

I know that many just don't have the time and money to devote to enough practice to become really as good as their potential allows, but it's really good to see many of the comments here. It's encouraging. Some in our ranks seem to be more concerned with economy and speed of production than they are with real accuracy, but it's HITTING what we're aiming at WHERE we want to hit it that shooting single projectile guns is all about, whether handgun or rifle.

In my neck of the woods, there seem to be an increasing number of folks who buy a gun, and don't even know that the bore scopes they use typically in most gun emporiums do NOT really sight in a gun at all, but are merely intended to get on paper for final adjustments. This retards their growth as a shooter. Many of these also seem unconcerned about HOW to shoot, and whatever their first guess is, that's what they go with, and just assume it's the "right way." Then, if you try to help, they get MAD at you! It's as though you had just called them incompetent! There's no help for those who don't want to know, and are more focused on their egos than on actually learning to shoot. These people honestly scare me. I've been shot at once when going to my stand by another hunter! Didn't have my orange vest on because I was in a hurry to get to my stand, so that part was MY fault, but even so, someone had come in to some property that I know for a fact that they had no permission to hunt, and they flat scared the puddin' out'a me! Thankfully, whoever it was, was a bad shot, and missed me, but it was plenty close enough to scare me good. I hit the ground flat instantly, and apparently, they either knew what they'd done after firing, or decided maybe another shot was a bad idea. I sat there looking intensely for the "hunter" and never did see him get down and leave, but that's what he apparently did. I wasn't going to raise my head far enough to see better, and was content for the idjit to just go away. After a while, I finally got up and went to my stand, but nothing came in after that shot, and I was just glad to still be alive.

Many are getting guns now, due to legitimate concerns about the future and about crime, and they are not typically getting the kind of instruction they really need. Some are hard to impossible to teach because they get their egos in a defensive posture and don't want to hear what might reflect badly on what they're doing, and I've not found a real "cure" for this. When I started shooting, my Dad and a few of his old Marine compadres taught me to shoot when I was still in the BB gun stage, even to how to use a sling. I found out long ago that slings are for much more than just carrying a gun over the shoulder. But most just don't WANT to learn things like this, and it'll always work against them.

But mostly, the best way for folks who aren't really great shots to become significantly better and more consistent is to shoot with folks who are better than they are, and the better they are, the more you can learn. None of us is born knowing how to drive or shoot or do many things. We have to learn. It's our only real option. And to learn something, wise men always turn to the best they know for advice and correction. Learning the "feel" of a given handgun and it's natural pointing traits are important. Handling qualities of a rifle are similarly important, too, but that's something we never read about in the glossy magazines any more. Mostly, gun writers have become reps for the companies they write reviews for, and those type of evals just don't interest me at all, and I just wait until my LGS gets one in and make up my own mind. Various guns come up differently. Shotgunners are familiar with these traits moreso than riflemen tend to be, but they apply across the board, albeit with varying effects for rifle vs. handgun.

As Einstein might have said, "It's all relative," and what gun fits one man's needs may not be quite the round peg in the round hole for the next shooter. Thankfully, we have lots of various models to try until we find one that "feels right" in the hands, and grips on handguns are a biggie that I never hardly see anything written about. If you can find a gun tinkerer/home 'smith who likes to modify and adapt his guns to his own personal needs, that's a really good person to do a lot of shooting with. Just leave the ego and attitude at home, and go to learn, and there's nearly a 100% chance he'll make you a better shooter if you just listen, think, and TRY what he asks you to.

I've had many guys ask me to teach them to shoot like I did, and after getting them on a bench or whatever, and showing them how to do it properly AND explaining WHY that's the best way, I've had many look up at me and say, "Well, that's not how I do it. I do it this way. How do I get better doing it MY way?" I guess I'm getting cranky in my old age, because when I get someone like that, I just tell them something like, "Well, if you're determined to do it that way, you need to learn to be content with the results you're getting now. If you really want to learn to shoot better, you need to at least try it my way." Some get angry at me, and I've even been called not so nice names for my efforts! That used to anger or disgust me, but now, I just shrug, and say something like, "Well, you asked me to show you and I did. Now get out'a my way. I've got some more shooting to do now." And then just go about my business and ignore them. Once in a while, one will come back and apologize and give an excuse, and ask me to try again, this time with a much better attitude, and in that case, I always do it. I haven't encountered one yet who hasn't benefited from what I tried to teach them, but occasionally, one runs up on one who just has the wrong mental attitude toward shooting and honestly doesn't have the capacity, at least at that time, to really absorb what I've tried to teach them. In those cases, I'll often go back some time later when I get a chance, and try again. Usually, that time doesn't work any better than the first one, but I've had exceptions to that.

Good training is the key to getting better, along with simply noticing what happens when we try something a little new or different, and letting the target results make our minds up for us. That's how I learned - good instruction followed by simply noticing the "little things" that are easy for many to gloss over and think "don't matter." But they DO matter, and most especially with the handgun, where tiny variances yield significant dispersion of shots on target. Good fitting grips that naturally position your trigger finger in just the right place help, especially with revolvers, either SA or DA. With autos, most only offer a difference in the girth of the grips, or thickness, and a change there can make a difference in groups and handling. Most folks "like" grips that are a bit too large for them, I've noticed. Don't know exactly why, but that is what I've observed, at least generally. Big grips at the back spread recoil out over more area, thus reducing the perception of recoil, but very small (some would say tiny) modifications CAN and DO make a significant difference in both handling. I'm not a fan of the "thin" grips, like Pachmyrs, nor of checkered grips for most guns. If I have a gun with checkered grips that I like, I'll take some 400 grit sandpaper and break the points on the checkering, especially the synthetic grips that can be rather sharp. I WANT the gun to fit my hand right, and place my trigger finger just so, so that I CAN shoot my best with the greatest ease. I also want the gun to seat itself in my hands with the first round fired. This can be important in SD situations where the first shot might be a little off. If the gun seats itself naturally because of smooth grips, that's insurance of better shooting when your mind is on the eyes of an adversary.

There's a lot to shooting and reloading that many just don't think about, often because they're tired when they finally get some time to load or shoot. We've all been there and done THAT one!

But some care and attention - simple observation - and shooting with someone who's better than we are really, really helps, especially for those who have trouble finding the time and money to load and shoot. Give it a try, even if you have to seek someone out. I've yet to see a good shot be offended by being asked for help, and most of the best shots are really good guys, with the possible exception of a few of the more "competitive" action shooting types. But if some good shooter gets haughty or uppidy with you, just tell them you made a mistake and look elsewhere. Those types are rare, but they seldom do a shooter much good because they've allowed that old bugaboo ego to get to them. Frequently, these are some of the "almost there" types who just can't find or don't have the talent to win, and they WANT to because of ego, so badly, that they simply become big egos who shoot, and leave their humanity at home. Avoid these like the plague!

I'm now at the stage that, as some have noted here, I'm just trying to retain as much of what I once had as I can, and that's getting increasingly more difficult to do. But I just got my Security Six from the 'smith yesterday with a good trigger job, and I ain't out of it yet! I wouldn't want me shooting at me even today, so ..... I'll take that. Don't have much choice really.

But through it all, INTENT to hit what you're aiming at PRECISELY WHERE you want to hit it MUST be your guiding light. Don't aim at the bullseye, but at a precise POINT on it, like that lil' X in the middle of it. Like Mel Gibson's kids said in "The Patriot," "Aim small, miss small." Do that every time you pull a trigger and you WILL get better, even if all you have to work with is just noticing what you're doing and trying things to make it better and more consistent and uniform and reliable. It'll come. Ya' gotta' BELIEVE you can do it, too. A whole lot of shooting is about attitude, and that only YOU can control. Keep your attitude right, and you'll almost surely get better than you ever expected to. I've never seen it fail.

[nagantguy]

my general rule for competent marksmen, regardless of arm is a good working knowledge of the weapon system, safe gun handling first and foremost and the ability to hit that magic 8.5x11 at any distance out to say 350 yards in any position on command.
my shooting mentor , former employer and now kinda sorta partner whom.owns Dieball Defense, is a great shooter, on command rifle pistol muzzle.loader, shotgun, air gun, cross bow, throwing hawks sling shot. he's been through the meat grinder of combat, won titles and trophies in several disiplines , top ranked trap shooter for the UAW, amateur airrfle.champion of Mexico , hi master in hi power ppc, idpa, ect. what I find, is he is so study and consistent, a few times with rifle.or pistol I have out shot him, when I'm "on" and the weapon is acting as an extension of my will, the 90% of the tme he beats me it's just a Tuesday. I watched him shoot a very high ppc score in a match last winter, only one other shooter even close to his score, actually a tie, so in the shoot off Dave beat his pervious best by a few points , point is pressure, hunting competition, what happened yesterday or an hour ago has ne effect on him , when he shoots it's only him and the weapon, no wind no cold or hot temp no letting a dropped shot break the rhythm. it's amazing to watch!

[tygar]

Well said & true Blackwater, also Nagant, especially in combat, being able to not let the stuff going on effect your ability to put rounds on target is key to being here to write this stuff.

As a small arms instructor, I preferred to teach a woman. Even one that was afraid of guns. Why, because they didn't think they were John Wayne & "knew" how to shoot! They listened, followed instructions & once they got over their fear or whatever, they were as good or better than the guys.

I was fortunate in that I had 2 uncles that were "real" WWII combat hero's. One 82 Airborne, the other a grunt that landed at Normandy. Both super shots, one was basically the "designated" sniper for his company.

So, by the time I was 6 or 7 I was being taught to shoot a 22, prone, sitting, standing, 10 or so a 03, 12 a .45. So when I got to Marine boot, I had a good handle on military position shooting & shooting expert was no problem.

I saw how badly the city boys were at shooting & the effort made to get them competent. Whereas, us kids that grew up shooting, at least knew the fundamentals, & most importantly, safety of firearms. Seen more than one idiot knocked flat out by DIs for sweeping the line with his rifle.

Yes, it is amazing to watch some of these guys that can really shoot. This is a no sh@@er, one of our PMI instructors, took a M14, locked it up to his shoulder, one handed & proceeded to shoot 3 rounds in the black at 200. Never forgot that guy. Think about it, 1 handed, offhand, at 200.

I personally put my shooting in the context of combat or survival. What does it take to kill that guy or that food.

The context of shooting small to miss small has been the mantra of good shooters forever. That's why, as I said above, if my rifle won't shoot "small", it's out the door, plus, if it does, then it gives some latitude for you when it hits the fan.

As Blackwater said, keeping cool & maintaining discipline, learning proper technique, are keys to good shooting.

If possible, I always use a "hasty" sling when shooting & always shoot kneeling, if possible, rather than offhand. That sling, adds a lot of stability to your positions. Besides, shooting offhand in combat or hunting, is the last thing you want to do. You make way to big a target & it's not steady.

[44man]

Pressure never bothered me. I did better under it. What I learned was to go for fun and not worry about the other guys. But what I could do just a few years ago or 40 years ago has gone. But I did it for memories and what do we have as old geezers? What I learned to make things shoot are more important today then what I can do.

[SteelHorseCowboy]

Depends on what I'm shooting and why.
For carry guns, I don't even shoot for groups, I shoot for pie plates at 5, 10, and 15 yards.

My 44 mag? I'm still working on that. I've had it for around two years but have barely shot it, I'm at maybe around 200 rounds. So I don't know what it OR I am capable of with it. Any tips on shooting a large frame SA revolver for accuracy would be much appreciated, particularly on grip. It's a Ruger Super Blackhawk.

Any rifles, I try my darndest to get as close as possible to what the rifle is capable of. I'm never as good as the rifle, but I get pretty close. Trigger pull is what always messes me up. Just need more practice.

[Ola]

Back in the days I was relly impressed by Jeff Coopers definition.. but I'm ashamed to admit I can't remember it all.

If I remember correctly:
Marksman can hit everything he/she is able to see.
Expert can shoot up to his/her rifle.

[jcwit]

Any rifles, I try my darndest to get as close as possible to what the rifle is capable of. I'm never as good as the rifle, but I get pretty close. Trigger pull is what always messes me up. Just need more practice.

My target rifles the trigger pull is less than an oz. Safe? If it's on the rest the bolt is in and it's loaded, if it's not loaded the bolt is out.

Ya, it's safe.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Cool thread.
Tons of good points here.

I've never been one to shoot groups unless I'm behind a scoped rifle. (I only own one)
I prefer to shoot my firearms at distances further than needed at reasonable sized pieces of steel and try to get 100% hits.
Handguns at 12" steel at 50 off hand and 6" steel at 50 rested.
Probably more than I would ever need to do for a practical shot but gives me some fun feedback vs paper. Carbines and rifles with iron sights are usually 18" and 10" steel at 200 with some 12" steel at 300 because that's what the range has set up already.
More than practical for the kill zone of an animal but if I don't do my part I can miss it.

I guess I look for a challenge and once I can meet that challenge I try to move to a smaller target or greater distance and sometimes a different platform or style sight to make it harder.

I look up to the guys that watch me and outshoot me and encourage the guys who don't think they can hit the target to give it a try.

Lots of guys surprise themselves and can shoot much better than what they thought they could. They just don't try to do anything more than a mag dump at 50 yards with their rifles.
Guys who miss the steel plate at 50 with their AR can ring the 300 all day long with my sharps and a peep. They just never thought to try and never aimed small before.

If half of what is said in this thread there are some damn good shooters here. From what I've seen I'm sure that more Han half is true.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I've been shooting Rifleman at Project Appleseed.
https://appleseedinfo.org/
Pretty doggone proud of that too.

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/burley_bucket/rrifleman.jpg
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/burley_bucket/inferno.jpg

I think the Appleseed standards are great , attended my first a few weeks ago , I shot rifleman , what are these other patches like the inferno , what is different about these events

I went to take my son , he hasn't shot rifleman , he is 13 and made great improvement but needs more practice besides having heard great things about the Appleseed program and wanting to see their instruction, techniques and drills to possibly bring some of the things they do back to my 4-H shooting instruction my son needed to hear what I was telling him from someone else he shoots very well from the bench but needed help on his positions

[ole 5 hole group]

My target rifles the trigger pull is less than an oz. Safe? If it's on the rest the bolt is in and it's loaded, if it's not loaded the bolt is out.

Ya, it's safe.

You have quite a trigger there - I thought I had fine triggers, those being Jewel's that break at 1.5 oz.

For those that don't shoot benchrest - you can actually squeeze a 1.5 oz trigger and when the wind switches you can either hold that trigger or release it - I've held my trigger pressure many times, while waiting for the wind to return, as I knew it would only be a couple seconds before the flags indicated it was a good time to send that round downrange - sometimes I was wrong and had to release the trigger and test the new wind pattern on the sighter, if I had sufficient time to do it.;)

I can only test triggers to 8 oz's and have to rely on the boys at Jewel to send me the triggers already set and take their word for it. In the past I knew many 2 oz triggers sold by the major manufactures of Custom triggers were closer to 3.5 to 4 oz triggers but you were paying for and thought they were actually 2 oz's. I know that because I had a gunsmith who order 50 to 100 at a time and he had them all "graded", meaning weighed, and they went from 1.5 or so to 4 ounces - the 1.5 to 2 oz triggers were sold at a premium price to very good and experienced shooters while the others were sold to people like me, who at that time didn't know any better and a 4 oz trigger was a tad difficult to handle in many ways.

[higgins]

I hardly shoot at paper targets any more unless load testing or sighting in a gun over sandbags. I have no real standards other than a good percentage (undefined, depends on situation) of hits on clay targets at 100 yds with iron sighted military rifles; drink cans at 20-25 yds with a revolver fired single action; about 75 percent hits on clay targets at 200 yds with scope sight centerfire rifle resting held forearm on rest (i.e., not rested fore and aft or clamped in a rest device).

s

[jcwit]

You have quite a trigger there - I thought I had fine triggers, those being Jewel's that break at 1.5 oz.

For those that don't shoot benchrest - you can actually squeeze a 1.5 oz trigger and when the wind switches you can either hold that trigger or release it - I've held my trigger pressure many times, while waiting for the wind to return, as I knew it would only be a couple seconds before the flags indicated it was a good time to send that round downrange - sometimes I was wrong and had to release the trigger and test the new wind pattern on the sighter, if I had sufficient time to do it.;)

I can only test triggers to 8 oz's and have to rely on the boys at Jewel to send me the triggers already set and take their word for it. In the past I knew many 2 oz triggers sold by the major manufactures of Custom triggers were closer to 3.5 to 4 oz triggers but you were paying for and thought they were actually 2 oz's. I know that because I had a gunsmith who order 50 to 100 at a time and he had them all "graded", meaning weighed, and they went from 1.5 or so to 4 ounces - the 1.5 to 2 oz triggers were sold at a premium price to very good and experienced shooters while the others were sold to people like me, who at that time didn't know any better and a 4 oz trigger was a tad difficult to handle in many ways.

Did my own trigger work for years. Don't believe me? Then just consider me lying.

[The Governor]

I think the Appleseed standards are great , attended my first a few weeks ago , I shot rifleman , what are these other patches like the inferno , what is different about these events

I went to take my son , he hasn't shot rifleman , he is 13 and made great improvement but needs more practice besides having heard great things about the Appleseed program and wanting to see their instruction, techniques and drills to possibly bring some of the things they do back to my 4-H shooting instruction my son needed to hear what I was telling him from someone else he shoots very well from the bench but needed help on his positions


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrgW3xaJAxQ



Thanks for asking, congrats on the Rifleman's patch and Kudos to your son.
He'll do you and the Project proud.
The Patriot's Day patch is given for Rifleman score on Patriot's Day, the day the first shot of the Revolutionary War was fired.
The utube vid is a volley honoring those killed on the first day of the war.
Infernoseed is given for Rifleman score on a day over 100 F. I got mine on 108.
The Yonottin Ranger is specific to Florida and s special lady who taught shooting and she'd say, " you aught not drag wood".

[dh2]

very firearm specific for example
25-06 firing 3 shots at 400yards with that paper plate all three hit.
45-70 three shots a two inch group at 100 yards
a hunting hand gun ( 44 Mag, 454 Cassull ) hit the plate all 5 or 6 shots at 100 yards

[The Governor]

AND, I want the Winterseed Patch. Given for a Rifleman's score below freezing.

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/burley_bucket/winterseed_patch_3523.jpg

A fella could do worse than patch all 3 in a year.

[PerpetualStudent]

This has been an interesting thread so far.

For me accuracy standard some if it does depend. I got to the range yesterday and from 30yds my stock 10-22 can keep it in an inch from rest. I go to kneeling and that group widens up to 3 in. Since squirrel hunting is my goal, I need to get it down to 1 in. It's going to be a combination of me moving closer and getting some practice. 20 yds kneeling I'm almost at an inch. For now that's my goal. I used to shoot precision 22 and a combination of cheaper equipment, field position, and lack of practice have changed my standard markedly.

I also spent some ammo moving and shooting. That is a humbling change and moving starting from 50yds I only kept 50% on a paper grocery bag (just about a torso sized target and free). Ultimately I want to keep all the rounds in a 5 in circle inside that paper but that's a long way away. And unless .22 comes back that'll be a long time coming.

But the reason I started the thread is not so much to develop my standards but because I was raised on stories of American Marksman. Crockett and Boon and Carson and Annie Oakley. What made them stick in my mind was they weren't just hunters or fighters or competition shooters. They were marksmen. They could pick up a gun and use it and use it well. Stock the larder, defend themselves, shoot a swinging jug, or shoot a scored target. And I feel like in modern sport we've specialized to a dangerous degree. Even 3 gun uses specialized equipment and sponsors that, in my view, takes away from that tradition of American Marksmen and replaces them with competitors or hunters each with their own set of marksmanship standards. While I want to see men and women trying to become a general marksman with some sort of general standard that we all strive for.

[44man]

It still comes down to the accuracy of the gun. Old guns were extremely accurate. Still hard to match today. We have rifles that shoot miles but general hunting rifles have not kept up but are getting better. There is a revolution with bedding and triggers never seen before. Factory loads are better then ever.
Most guns shoot better then we can so it is still the nut behind the trigger.

[dtknowles]

This has been an interesting thread so far.

For me accuracy standard some if it does depend. I got to the range yesterday and from 30yds my stock 10-22 can keep it in an inch from rest. I go to kneeling and that group widens up to 3 in. Since squirrel hunting is my goal, I need to get it down to 1 in. It's going to be a combination of me moving closer and getting some practice. 20 yds kneeling I'm almost at an inch. For now that's my goal. I used to shoot precision 22 and a combination of cheaper equipment, field position, and lack of practice have changed my standard markedly.

I also spent some ammo moving and shooting. That is a humbling change and moving starting from 50yds I only kept 50% on a paper grocery bag (just about a torso sized target and free). Ultimately I want to keep all the rounds in a 5 in circle inside that paper but that's a long way away. And unless .22 comes back that'll be a long time coming.

But the reason I started the thread is not so much to develop my standards but because I was raised on stories of American Marksman. Crockett and Boon and Carson and Annie Oakley. What made them stick in my mind was they weren't just hunters or fighters or competition shooters. They were marksmen. They could pick up a gun and use it and use it well. Stock the larder, defend themselves, shoot a swinging jug, or shoot a scored target. And I feel like in modern sport we've specialized to a dangerous degree. Even 3 gun uses specialized equipment and sponsors that, in my view, takes away from that tradition of American Marksmen and replaces them with competitors or hunters each with their own set of marksmanship standards. While I want to see men and women trying to become a general marksman with some sort of general standard that we all strive for.

I don't know if it is marksmanship or what but yeah. Pick up a gun, almost any gun and after just a couple shots to see where it hits be able to put it to good use. Not even adjust the sights, just Kentucky windage. At the same time understand the limitations of the gun/sight/cartridge and not expect to do the unlikely.

Tim

[Strtspdlx]

Pistol I've set my goal so far too, an index card at 20yds and for rifle it's an index card at about 70 yds. I've been shooting for about a year now and rifle I can generally hold well within the index card with irons. Much past 70yds and my eyes blurr everything so it's hard with irons. Pistol I'm still working on but 7 out of 10 I can usually hit well within the card and hold a decent group. Ideally I'd like to get down to 1" pasters for rifle and pistol and move pistol out to between 30-50yds and rifle to between 100-200 but we'll see if my sight will allow. I'm 29 by the way so I have a lot of time to practice.

[ole 5 hole group]

Did my own trigger work for years. Don't believe me? Then just consider me lying.

No, not insinuating anything of the sort, a lot of guys do their own trigger work. I did some trigger work years back on my Remington 700. I don't know the weight I got it down to, but it was super light and sometimes not safe. I basically ruined one model 700 trigger in my "experiments".

There are some 1911's running around with 1.5# triggers with no hammer follow - I have no earthly idea how they accomplish that, but some have the ability to make a 1911 safe and reliable with that light trigger pull.

I apologize if my previous post sounded like I was questioning your veracity, as I surely wasn't.


Joe

[44man]

I did it with a 1911 custom I built. No problems from me or the owner but a friend has it go auto and can't shoot it.

[jcwit]

No, not insinuating anything of the sort, a lot of guys do their own trigger work. I did some trigger work years back on my Remington 700. I don't know the weight I got it down to, but it was super light and sometimes not safe. I basically ruined one model 700 trigger in my "experiments".

There are some 1911's running around with 1.5# triggers with no hammer follow - I have no earthly idea how they accomplish that, but some have the ability to make a 1911 safe and reliable with that light trigger pull.

I apologize if my previous post sounded like I was questioning your veracity, as I surely wasn't.


Joe

OK, we're good to go. Not to worry, at my age (73) I have fairly thick skin. Ol

Regarding 1911"s, If shooting Bullseye Matches, I believe the trigger pull need to be at least 4 lb.

You are right in saying it's tough getting the trigger pull way down in a 700 and still be safe. Being as I shoot so little anymore I thinking I should put the org. trigger back on so when my wife has my auction the next owner doesn't get an unknowing/unsafe (to them) rifle.

[The Governor]

This has been an interesting thread so far.

For me accuracy standard some if it does depend. I got to the range yesterday and from 30yds my stock 10-22 can keep it in an inch from rest. I go to kneeling and that group widens up to 3 in. Since squirrel hunting is my goal, I need to get it down to 1 in. It's going to be a combination of me moving closer and getting some practice. 20 yds kneeling I'm almost at an inch. For now that's my goal. I used to shoot precision 22 and a combination of cheaper equipment, field position, and lack of practice have changed my standard markedly.

I also spent some ammo moving and shooting. That is a humbling change and moving starting from 50yds I only kept 50% on a paper grocery bag (just about a torso sized target and free). Ultimately I want to keep all the rounds in a 5 in circle inside that paper but that's a long way away. And unless .22 comes back that'll be a long time coming.

But the reason I started the thread is not so much to develop my standards but because I was raised on stories of American Marksman. Crockett and Boon and Carson and Annie Oakley. What made them stick in my mind was they weren't just hunters or fighters or competition shooters. They were marksmen. They could pick up a gun and use it and use it well. Stock the larder, defend themselves, shoot a swinging jug, or shoot a scored target. And I feel like in modern sport we've specialized to a dangerous degree. Even 3 gun uses specialized equipment and sponsors that, in my view, takes away from that tradition of American Marksmen and replaces them with competitors or hunters each with their own set of marksmanship standards. While I want to see men and women trying to become a general marksman with some sort of general standard that we all strive for.


https://appleseedinfo.org/

Attending an event will help you. Use of a sling and Natural Point Of Aim, (NPOA), will close up that kneeling group.

[PerpetualStudent]

I've given some thought to appleseed. But I shot 3 position .22 in college so I'm not lacking in fundamentals- mainly practice. I'm thinking the money would probably be better spent on ammo.I never shot 100 in kneeling but I averaged in the low 90s for kneeling, high 90s for prone. I've not put a sling on my .22 because it's a take down 10/22 and slings have been shown to change the POI. So I'm trying to improve my non-sling shooting. Main thing I'm missing is practice.

[The Governor]

Hmmm, look at my rifle again. It's one of the first take downs ever.
And I think a week end shoot at Appleseed is only $75.

[ole 5 hole group]

For bullseye, I think the 45 match trigger pull is 3.5#, while the centerfire is 2.5#s - not many local sanctioned 2700 matches did they measure your trigger pull weight - at least when I shot them - the honor system prevailed, maybe not that way today.;)

In benchrest - every match I shot, they weighed the rifles, they trusted no one. I swear that some rifles had to have helium in there somewhere, just by looking at their barrel contour and length.

[PerpetualStudent]

I'm glad it's working for you. I was worried about the effect of putting tension on the barrel, and this post ( https://1022companion.wordpress.com/2015/03/26/thoughts-on-the-takedown-model/ ) notes that the sling moved his POI by 2-4 inches at 100 yds. It was after reading that that I decided this would be my offhand 22. Thinking about it again, at close range it might help me more than it hurts. I'll have to think about that.

Appleseed is great value for the money and I heartily applaud what they're doing. Especially since not enough of us young shooters use a sling as a shooting aid. Since I've had the training I have, I tend to think that 75 bucks would be better spent on upgrading the sights and/or actual rounds downrange.

[popper]

The kneeling position is a good field position in my opinion. It is quick to assume, quick to exit, it gives the shooter a smaller visual signature, allows for getting behind cover if necessary, and is a great improvement in precision over offhand with little increase in time Almost makes me laugh. Did Custer think this one up?
With practice it is quick to assume (?). Easy to move -try it - with a 70# pack, when you're tired (or old). Smaller target - no just aim slightly above ground and get center mass. More accurate than off-hand standing - ask a wing shooter. Now kneeling behind low cover, shooting offhand - yup. What ye say combat vets? Do they still teach this?

[runfiverun]

the SIL just got home from Iraq a couple of years ago and just about every 'field position' to him is kneeling.
so yeah they still teach it.

[jcwit]

For bullseye, I think the 45 match trigger pull is 3.5#, while the centerfire is 2.5#s - not many local sanctioned 2700 matches did they measure your trigger pull weight - at least when I shot them - the honor system prevailed, maybe not that way today.;)

In benchrest - every match I shot, they weighed the rifles, they trusted no one. I swear that some rifles had to have helium in there somewhere, just by looking at their barrel contour and length.

I stand corrected, you are correct.

Myself did not compete, polio in my teens gave me the shakes to bad. I did serve as a RSO till my health made me stop.


The above is one reason I like such light triggers.

I have a custom Hawken with set triggers, to fire only a touch of the trigger from the side fires it. No pull involved.
This is not a TC or some Italian rifle, parts from all over, made it entirely myself other than inleting the butt plate, gave up doing that after getting the 3rd stock from Reinhart Fagion (sp).

[44man]

I shot the M1 in service. Won the 500 meter KD shoot with one of the highest scores ever shot, Missed one X. I used a sling so tight I broke a web sling and the rifle almost went over my head. Not much you could do to harm the rifle or how it shot. It must have taken 200# to push the rifle against the sling. I could break the trigger without a nickel falling off the front.
Now state shoots at IHMSA they did not check triggers but at the nationals I would have been rejected since my SBH trigger will kick forward. They would not know I had a longer transfer bar. I solved the Ruger light trigger pull at 1-1/2#. BFR is 19 oz. I hate hard triggers.

[44man]

I stand corrected, you are correct.

Myself did not compete, polio in my teens gave me the shakes to bad. I did serve as a RSO till my health made me stop.


The above is one reason I like such light triggers.

I have a custom Hawken with set triggers, to fire only a touch of the trigger from the side fires it. No pull involved.
This is not a TC or some Italian rifle, parts from all over, made it entirely myself other than inleting the butt plate, gave up doing that after getting the 3rd stock from Reinhart Fagion (sp).
My Hawken has a Bob Roller trigger and lock, same thing. I have an H&H barrel. Had to call and convince Bob to make the parts for us. He was disgusted with American shooters being cheap and was only making the parts for Germany at the time.
My flinters can go off with a breath of wind.
Worst triggers to work were old pre 64 WW rifles. I did it then too. Blink and the shot was gone!

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

AND, I want the Winterseed Patch. Given for a Rifleman's score below freezing.

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/burley_bucket/winterseed_patch_3523.jpg

A fella could do worse than patch all 3 in a year.

there is a winter seed coming up Dec 4 but I think we are already busy that day I would have to travel to an inferno seed the last time we were over 100 was 2012

but below 32 that's easy weather to find, although the transition to sitting in snow pants might prove a challenge

[popper]

Interesting R5R. Seems only Olympic & 3 gun still use it in comp. I'm speaking true kneeling ***., not 'short legged off hand' or supported like 3-gun. All we did at Pendelton boot was standing, sitting and prone (M1). I did try it a few years back in the field in Ar. Much better sitting. Guess Appleseed is pre-training/selection for Olympics.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

This has been an interesting thread so far.

For me accuracy standard some if it does depend. I got to the range yesterday and from 30yds my stock 10-22 can keep it in an inch from rest. I go to kneeling and that group widens up to 3 in. Since squirrel hunting is my goal, I need to get it down to 1 in. It's going to be a combination of me moving closer and getting some practice. 20 yds kneeling I'm almost at an inch. For now that's my goal. I used to shoot precision 22 and a combination of cheaper equipment, field position, and lack of practice have changed my standard markedly.

I also spent some ammo moving and shooting. That is a humbling change and moving starting from 50yds I only kept 50% on a paper grocery bag (just about a torso sized target and free). Ultimately I want to keep all the rounds in a 5 in circle inside that paper but that's a long way away. And unless .22 comes back that'll be a long time coming.

But the reason I started the thread is not so much to develop my standards but because I was raised on stories of American Marksman. Crockett and Boon and Carson and Annie Oakley. What made them stick in my mind was they weren't just hunters or fighters or competition shooters. They were marksmen. They could pick up a gun and use it and use it well. Stock the larder, defend themselves, shoot a swinging jug, or shoot a scored target. And I feel like in modern sport we've specialized to a dangerous degree. Even 3 gun uses specialized equipment and sponsors that, in my view, takes away from that tradition of American Marksmen and replaces them with competitors or hunters each with their own set of marksmanship standards. While I want to see men and women trying to become a general marksman with some sort of general standard that we all strive for.


Appleseed is all about making 4MOA shooters the no specialized equipment any service grade gun and a GI cotton web sling the lesson is in body mechanics use your body don't fight it

learn hasty sling well and you should be looking at standing groups the size of a squirrel head

a set of easy to make shooting sticks may also help you with the squirrel hunting or other hunting.

[ole 5 hole group]

The "rice patty squat" is a pretty stable platform to shoot from. I would hope it's being taught/discussed in our Armed Forces rifle basic training???

[Blackwater]

I'm glad it's working for you. I was worried about the effect of putting tension on the barrel, and this post ( https://1022companion.wordpress.com/2015/03/26/thoughts-on-the-takedown-model/ ) notes that the sling moved his POI by 2-4 inches at 100 yds. It was after reading that that I decided this would be my offhand 22. Thinking about it again, at close range it might help me more than it hurts. I'll have to think about that.

Appleseed is great value for the money and I heartily applaud what they're doing. Especially since not enough of us young shooters use a sling as a shooting aid. Since I've had the training I have, I tend to think that 75 bucks would be better spent on upgrading the sights and/or actual rounds downrange.

Just a tip FWIW, but I've long shot with a sling, and if the barrel bears on the forend, using a tight sling WILL move POI, which can't be a good thing. What I've always done, to "cure" that, is to free float the barrel from the chamber area forward. I usually bed my guns from the action through the chamber area, and leave the barrel free floated. If you shoot with a sling, you have to have a bit more of a gap between barrel and forend to allow for a tiny bit of bending. Thicker forends of course bend less, while thinner ones are more easily bent. And it doesn't take much of a bend to have the forend touch the barrel, and change your POI. With the 10/22, you can't bed it that way very handily, but some bed the area of the barrel where the forend screw attaches the barreled action to the stock, and free float both the action and barrel forward of that point. This tends to eliminate or at worst, minimize the effect of a tight sling.

One other tip, with a stock that bends, like some of the injection molded plastic stocks, hogging out the forend helps often, and using a lightly tensioned sling will usually be allowed without POI changes IF you use that lighter tension on the sling. But you have to get out and test it to see how much pressure and tension you can get away with on any given stock.

Hope this helps? Using a sling is a GREAT aid in getting those bullets to go precisely where you want them to.

[garym1a2]

Appleseed is good at teaching the basics Standing, sitting and prone. I went to Appleseed and got Rifleman on the second day. I like how they train the basics so much that I brung my brothers out the next year.

Appleseed is all about making 4MOA shooters the no specialized equipment any service grade gun and a GI cotton web sling the lesson is in body mechanics use your body don't fight it

learn hasty sling well and you should be looking at standing groups the size of a squirrel head

a set of easy to make shooting sticks may also help you with the squirrel hunting or other hunting.

[PerpetualStudent]

I'd do that in a heartbeat Blackwater but the Take Down 10/22 attaches the front to the rear via the barrel. So the forestock is attached the to barrel rather than the receiver or the butt stock. There are alignment pins that connect the front stock to the back stock but all the tensioning occurs at the barrel (is my understanding).

Much easier to clean, much easier to carry when it's in two pieces and it holds its zero very nicely during attachment and disassembly - but I'm loathe to use a sling and tension it properly. The article I posted noted that he didn't use his sling tightly while my training says "MAKE IT TIGHT" never broken a sling but I've lost circulation in my hand a time or two...

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

Appleseed is good at teaching the basics Standing, sitting and prone. I went to Appleseed and got Rifleman on the second day. I like how they train the basics so much that I brung my brothers out the next year.

if you shoot rifleman near the end of the second day you know you had to be working the possition in good form , the sling ,the NPOA getting it all right because your about spent , you hurt,your getting weak.

once you have it all down it's no fluke to shoot rifleman you are shooting it or very close to it nearly every target then it is whether you have an equipment malfunction or your neighbor shoots your target a few times if you make it or not.

I like the 5 spot drills , you can drill on what they are lacking , like shifting NPOA load 10 , on each spot find npoa fire 2 shift fire 2 , legs better be moving after every 2 shots

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I'd do that in a heartbeat Blackwater but the Take Down 10/22 attaches the front to the rear via the barrel. So the forestock is attached the to barrel rather than the receiver or the butt stock. There are alignment pins that connect the front stock to the back stock but all the tensioning occurs at the barrel (is my understanding).

Much easier to clean, much easier to carry when it's in two pieces and it holds its zero very nicely during attachment and disassembly - but I'm loathe to use a sling and tension it properly. The article I posted noted that he didn't use his sling tightly while my training says "MAKE IT TIGHT" never broken a sling but I've lost circulation in my hand a time or two...

it sounds like you need to try getting down in prone with a rest shoot a group then attach the sling and shoot a group and see the difference , there was a guy at the Appleseed a few weeks ago with a 10/22 take down with tech sights I didn't notice how he shot he was further down the line but he had the sling on his gun and he was getting in prone with a sling like everyone else.
he did not make rifleman but only 8 of nearly 40 did

as long as the sling tension is the same every time you can probably just adjust your sights to it

[popper]

Some pretty good info here and as shooting position plays such a large part in marksmanship, maybe some 'field' hunting position tips? Like a towel or soft pad for blind shooting? Sling is good but I've never seen it used in the field. Nothing against Apppleseed or any like it - just seems like comp. training, not field.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

Some pretty good info here and as shooting position plays such a large part in marksmanship, maybe some 'field' hunting position tips? Like a towel or soft pad for blind shooting? Sling is good but I've never seen it used in the field. Nothing against Apppleseed or any like it - just seems like comp. training, not field.

I have taken a few deer kneeling hasty sling before I even knew what appleseed was using a sling in a hang on tree stand is a sitting position


most of these deer were threading the needle shots I could see the deer walking but was in enough underbrush that I set up on the next opening and waited for the deer to walk into the cross hairs
one of the first things I do for the day when I get out hunting is make sure my sling is the right length for hasty sling and the clothing I am wearing it is only an adjustment of an inch or two conveniently at least for me a sling the right length for hasty sling works well for carrying the gun over my shoulder or under slung depending on barrel length


I haven't ever seen loop sling used in the field I agree that is a competition thing but hasty sling can be very useful in the field

Appleseed gets it's roots from Military training they are the RWVA revolutionary war veterans association.

[Hamish]

Marksmanship standards;

Plinking=To miss less then the last time I was plinking.
Target shooting=To do better then the last target.
Hunting=Kill'em with the first shot.

This is perhaps the most eloquent post on the matter I have ever read!

[Blackwater]

Perpetual Student, you're right. I missed the takedown feature. Would a single point shooting sling work on the front end, with the barrel glassed in? Not ideal, but I've been shooting with a sling so long I feel naked without one.

And Green County Pete, like you, probably at least half the deer I've shot were with clamp on stands, and with a hasty sling. ALL of them over 100 yds, I think, were taken with a sling. I used to sit in my stand with the rifle sling wrapped around my arm so that whenever I brought it up, it just naturally tightened up. This lets me place my shots much better. Around here, most affix some sort of "rifle rest" in their stands. It REALLY helps the mediocre shots, but I think a few of them would miss if you could sit them INSIDE the deer! It's amazing how bad some folks are at shooting. I'd have thought one would have had to practice to get THAT bad! And not one of them will even make the least effort to learn to use a sling. You couldn't make them use one if it'd help them win the lottery!

I've nearly quit trying to help them. They're almost consistently the ones who simply won't do what you tell them to, and if I haven't heard ALL the possible reasons they won't even try, the few remaining ones are probably awaiting me next time I try to help. Very frustrating, and I've started almost consciously trying to offend them. If you can't deal with them and their natural attitude, sometimes offending them at least gets their attention. I've had a couple come back some time later, usually a pretty good while, and ask me for help again, and promising they'll at least try what I tell them to do. And it's always helped in every case I've had actually DO what I told them to do. They may not win any matches, but they do become better shots, and at least stand a chance of getting a good deer now and then. And maybe not wounding some to go off and die a terrible death. Some of these are the same guys who, if the deer reaches any kind of cover, stop their search right there. I just can't relate to folks like that very well, it seems. But in all honesty, I've kind'a quit trying to after a few inane treatments of what I've tried to do for them. If I can't help, at least I can cut my own losses. If their attitudes change, I'll try again, but it's got to be a significant attitude change. Those are few and far between usually, but they do happen. Missing a number of deer in close and "unmissable" sometimes has a beneficial effect on them. Many also have to go to a smaller caliber like .243, etc., so they're not afraid of their rifle's recoil. Very few of the bad shots will use ear muffs, too, and I've come to tell them if they won't wear the muffs, I can't teach them. Most will wear the muffs, but not all. I wish I'd worn muffs for thousands of .357 and .44 full loads! That nagging ringing might not be so loud now!

[avogunner]

179796
X16
179797
X11
Semper Fi!!!

[220]

Hard to quantify but I know it when I see it.
Always thought of myself as a average shooter at best until started attending a few different forum shoots and range days.
I guess it was due to comparing myself to the best shooters at state and national championships with rifle and pistol. Now these shooters are the best in the country, compete at Olympics world champs etc so it is no surprise there skill level is way above mine.
When I compared myself against the average bloke I suddenly found my skill level was above average.

Outside of range shooting I think more important than skill level is knowing what shots you can make, those you cant and having the discipline to walk away on those you cant.
Son is quite a good shot having made state teams and winning more than his fair share of things along the way. I'm probably more proud of the fact he chose to pass up the first few oppertunites he had to bag his first deer because he wasn't confident in taking them than what he has won.

[TXGunNut]

I strive to be as good a rifle/pistol shooter as my shooting buddies tell people I am, lol. I've done enough comp shooting to know what a really good shot can do and I'm not the shooter my buddies think I am. Still trying to learn to shoot a shotgun but some days I just can't get mad enough at those little orange birds. ;-)

[popper]

Interesting read, different from the army rifle text. http://www.ar-15.ca/pdf/Section_08_Shooting_Positions.pdf

[fiberoptik]

USMC 7th award Expert. Best shot--300 yd. headshot chipmunk with m-16 open sights


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[44man]

I had expert with every weapon. My daughter has all of my stuff. But I was a shooter before going into service. I wish we had more to teach the young like old days. I learned myself though for the love. Today they shoot by pushing a button on a machine. My dad might have never fired a gun or caught a fish but I was a fishing nut. Fishing and hunting every spare second. I don't know where it came from with no help. I was left alone to do what I wanted to. Outside in the morning and might not go home until way after dark. Ride a bike 30 miles to fish.
Best time was when a neighbor went fishing to take me. I would tie a string to my foot and hang it out the window so when he got up, he would yank on it. Yeah, life was great back then and we were free from liberals. Born and raised in Cleveland and roamed the whole city as kids. Took guns to school to hunt and check traps after. Yeah, even in the city. Short distance out of town to find pheasant and quail, squirrels and fish.
Parents get arrested today if kids roam. In 1956 and later I never was anywhere without a BH .44 on my hip. Model 27 way before that and the Mark I. Loaded my own for everything, shotgun to rifle.
I was working a paper route on a bike, go to Avon Hardware and buy a .220 Swift or .300 Weatherby, Got the BH in the mail from Kleins Sporting Goods in CHI. Lived with Herter's catalogs.
Most here were not even thought of or born, you just don't know.

[shootsblanks]

My standards are pretty low compared to alot of shooters to be honest, but higher than alot of hunters i know (one fellow considers himself a sniper for hitting my gong at 100 off a bloody sand bag) for my deer rifle i need to hit a 5" gong 10/10 at 50 standing, at 100 i need to do it sitting and at 150 prone. After that i really dont care.
With my small game load (round ball and titegroup in my 3030) i need to hit the shiny end of a pop can at 25 yards with all 10 shots standing, i body shoot grouse and rabbits, with that load and it looks like i stabbed a pencil through them with 0 meat damage aside from the hole.
Good enough for me.

[fiberoptik]

Welcome to liberal socialist AmeriKa! Hillary's dream!


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[KCSO]

Hunting rifle Ctg from the bench under 1 1/2" at 100 yards. Off hand 4 inches or better at 100 yards. Varmit rife from the bench under 1/2"

Muzzleloader rifle 42 or better at 100 yards and over 40 Offhand at all distances. Pistol 85 at 50 yards and 88 or better at 25 offhand.

Shotgun trap 23 or better.

[Thumbcocker]

Better than I did the last time I shot.

[44man]

We lose it with age and a few years given back would be great.
I don't want to do things anymore. vacuumed up tons of leaves yesterday. What about next year? Cut the stinking trees down?
Met friends at the party that chew. I do too but a can lasts a week or more, they use a can a day!
My check engine light comes on and I remove a battery cable now to set it.
I drink too much too. Who cares? To claim I can do what I did is silly.

[jcwit]

73 here, and I missed my pipe for 25 years, well guess what, even my Dr's say so what! Love that Half & Half.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I feel this question deserves a response from me, since I just got back form Front Sight.

In order to accurately answer this question you have to break it down into many subsets. Many have already done it so it is not necessary to go into excruciating detail.

However firearms competency is divided into two factors. One is Gun Handling and Safety, the other is the actual hitting of the target.

I see way too many people who don't have very good gun handling skills. I attribute this to the fact that few have ever been taught or if they had, they didn't quite get all the fine points.

Gun Handling Breaks down into two factors. Running the gun, and keeping it pointed in a safe direction. The majority of shooters I see are weak or non existent on the former and fairly OK on the second.

Running the gun means, you can load, unload, and manipulate the weapon system safely and quickly. If the gun is a Semi Auto Rifle or Pistol it means you can insert and remove a magazine or clip into the magazine, lock the slide or bolt open, and be able to clear Type 1,2,and 3 malfunctions as well as performing Emergency and Tactical Reloads. These are basic skills necessary to be competent with these weapons. Most don't even know what a type 1,2 or3 malfunction is.

The intended use for this type of weapon would be self defense or armed conflict. These skills would need to be honed to a very fine edge as your life would probably depend on them.

If using those same Weapons Systems for Hunting or Casual Target Shooting then you would still need to be able to do them, but your life may not depend on your competence, and as such most people would eventually forget how to do them due to lack of use. Then if you did actually need them,,, you'd be screwed. IE; you really need to know how to do this stuff!

Competence requires training and practice. You learn how to do things and then you practice until they are second nature and then you practice some more to maintain those skills.

Marksmanship is the other factor and it is relative to the type of Weapons System and the Distance to the Target.

With a Pistol at Conversational Distances it is often mandatory that you shoot quickly. Thus you won't have time to obtain a Perfect Sight Picture and Trigger Control. However at 3-7 yards it is not necessary as the target is pretty big. The use of what is known as a "Flash Sight Picture" or "Point Shooting" will probably get the job done.

The Quick Draw guys are not looking for sights, they are point shooting. The IDPA or Defensive Shooters are using the "Flash Sight Picture" for the close targets, which is just a looser version of the Perfect Sight Picture. This is all about the angles of shooting at close distances versus longer distances. The closer you are the further your sights can be away from perfect alignment and still be on target.

Obviously as the distance increases the need for a better sight picture increases.

The other factor here is the sight radius of the weapon. Pistols generally have sight radius' of 3-7". Rifles are more like 15-30" and thus the sighting error is greatly reduced and as such the distances can increase.

But the Gorilla in the room here is actually what target are you really going to shoot at.

Sorry to have to make this point,,, but the reality of firearms is that all guns are made to shoot either people or food.

All other uses of firearms are for the enhancement of the skills necessary to perform either of those two primary functions.

So really Minute of Man, or Minute of Deer is the true definition of the accuracy anyone should be trying to achieve.

Anything beyond that just increases your effective range. YMMV.

Randy

[dtknowles]

I feel this question deserves a response from me, since I just got back form Front Sight.

In order to accurately answer this question you have to break it down into many subsets. Many have already done it so it is not necessary to go into excruciating detail.

However firearms competency is divided into two factors. One is Gun Handling and Safety, the other is the actual hitting of the target.

I see way too many people who don't have very good gun handling skills. I attribute this to the fact that few have ever been taught or if they had, they didn't quite get all the fine points.

Gun Handling Breaks down into two factors. Running the gun, and keeping it pointed in a safe direction. The majority of shooters I see are weak or non existent on the former and fairly OK on the second.

Running the gun means, you can load, unload, and manipulate the weapon system safely and quickly. If the gun is a Semi Auto Rifle or Pistol it means you can insert and remove a magazine or clip into the magazine, lock the slide or bolt open, and be able to clear Type 1,2,and 3 malfunctions as well as performing Emergency and Tactical Reloads. These are basic skills necessary to be competent with these weapons. Most don't even know what a type 1,2 or3 malfunction is.

The intended use for this type of weapon would be self defense or armed conflict. These skills would need to be honed to a very fine edge as your life would probably depend on them.

If using those same Weapons Systems for Hunting or Casual Target Shooting then you would still need to be able to do them, but your life may not depend on your competence, and as such most people would eventually forget how to do them due to lack of use. Then if you did actually need them,,, you'd be screwed. IE; you really need to know how to do this stuff!

Competence requires training and practice. You learn how to do things and then you practice until they are second nature and then you practice some more to maintain those skills.

Marksmanship is the other factor and it is relative to the type of Weapons System and the Distance to the Target.

With a Pistol at Conversational Distances it is often mandatory that you shoot quickly. Thus you won't have time to obtain a Perfect Sight Picture and Trigger Control. However at 3-7 yards it is not necessary as the target is pretty big. The use of what is known as a "Flash Sight Picture" or "Point Shooting" will probably get the job done.

The Quick Draw guys are not looking for sights, they are point shooting. The IDPA or Defensive Shooters are using the "Flash Sight Picture" for the close targets, which is just a looser version of the Perfect Sight Picture. This is all about the angles of shooting at close distances versus longer distances. The closer you are the further your sights can be away from perfect alignment and still be on target.

Obviously as the distance increases the need for a better sight picture increases.

The other factor here is the sight radius of the weapon. Pistols generally have sight radius' of 3-7". Rifles are more like 15-30" and thus the sighting error is greatly reduced and as such the distances can increase.

But the Gorilla in the room here is actually what target are you really going to shoot at.

Sorry to have to make this point,,, but the reality of firearms is that all guns are made to shoot either people or food.

All other uses of firearms are for the enhancement of the skills necessary to perform either of those two primary functions.

So really Minute of Man, or Minute of Deer is the true definition of the accuracy anyone should be trying to achieve.

Anything beyond that just increases your effective range. YMMV.

Randy

Hey Randy thanks but you did not answer the question "what are your marksmanship-standards?" Still a good post.

I disagree with "Sorry to have to make this point,,, but the reality of firearms is that all guns are made to shoot either people or food." My bench rest rifle is a gun and a firearm but is not made to shoot either people or food, it is made to shoot inedible paper.

Again, you post was good but you need to open your aperture a little.

Another aside, some of us don't worry about sight radius much we shoot using scopes or reflex sights or laser pointers.

I am not sure the OP was even a bit interested is self defense shooting standards or running the gun but maybe we can here from him.

Those subjects might be worth a thread of their own.

Tim

[220]

I disagree with "Sorry to have to make this point,,, but the reality of firearms is that all guns are made to shoot either people or food." My bench rest rifle is a gun and a firearm but is not made to shoot either people or food, it is made to shoot inedible paper.


I have a few pistols that are the same, designed from the ground up to do nothing more than punch holes in paper as effectively as possible within the rules of the match.
Im thinking specifically of euro manufactured centrefires for ISSF. Chambered for 32s&wl wadcutter, magazine forward in design, 5 shot capacity because that is all that is needed for the event, full orthopaedic grips that in some cases are actually part of the frame so can not be removed or swapped. Every detail of these has been designed with the sole purpose of punching holes in paper at 25m as effectively as possible while standing and shooting one handed. Heck they don't even lock the action open on the last shot because to do so would change the recoil dynamics ever so slightly from the previous 4 shots and may result in the last shot going a fraction of a inch different to the previous shots.
Sure the fact they launch a projectile means they could be used for hunting or self defence but it would be like trying to use a Nascar or F1 car to get the family to church on Sunday.

[tdoyka]

it depends...

over a bench doing deer, its .5" at 100 yards
over a bench doing groundhog, its .2" at 100 yards.

in the field doing a deer, its roughly 4" circle.
in the field doing a groundhog, its roughly 2" circle.

but if you tell anybody, its a half inch at 2 miles thru a 50mph crosswind both ways:holysheep[smilie=l:[smilie=l:!!!!

[fatelk]

Sorry to have to make this point,,, but the reality of firearms is that all guns are made to shoot either people or food.

My dad thinks this way too, and as such he hates guns. He supports the right to own guns, but for some reason whenever he hold one he sees death and just personally hates them. He hates that I am so interested in them and collect them.

[dtknowles]

My dad thinks this way too, and as such he hates guns. He supports the right to own guns, but for some reason whenever he hold one he sees death and just personally hates them. He hates that I am so interested in them and collect them.

After coming back from the South Pacific after the end of WWII my father was not at all interested in guns. When it was time to learn about guns he took us to my Maine Guide Uncle Adin Green. He then bought us a single shot bolt .22, then a single shot 20 gauge. Then he got my brother and I each a "Deer" rifle, I got a model 94 in 30-30 and my brother got a Sporter 6.5 Carcano.

Tim

[W.R.Buchanan]

Sorry to have to make this point,,, but the reality of firearms is that all guns are made to shoot either people or food.

All other uses of firearms are for the enhancement of the skills necessary to perform either of those two primary functions.

So really Minute of Man, or Minute of Deer is the true definition of the minimum accuracy anyone should be trying to achieve.

Anything beyond that just increases your effective range. YMMV.

Randy

Tim: Your Bench Rest Rifle only increases the effective range you can operate in,,, which directly translates to being able to control more area on a battlefield. Sure that gun is designed specifically to shoot small groups in targets at a long distance but that discipline translates directly to the Shooting Skills of a Sniper on the battlefield, or a Hunter trying to stalk an elusive prey. The top Bench Rest Shooter in my Club shot an Elk at a lazered 968 yards a few years ago with his Hunting Rifle. His skills obtained from shooting BR gave him the ability and confidence to be able to make that shot. you BR gun could probably make that shot as well.

All Bullseye Pistol Shooting is designed as non lethal practice for conflict. IE: Developing Sight Alignment and Trigger Control for when you are using the gun for Defensive Purposes. In the case of moving targets, more of the same, but in the real world your adversaries are not stupid, and are constantly moving, so your chances of making a shot on a stationary target are limited, thus the need to practice on moving targets. (Bianchi Cup?) Open Class Bianchi guns are not generally used for Self Defense but they would certainly work in a pinch.

All Shotgun Sports are designed as practice for Field Shooting. Trap, Skeet Sporting Clays. Why do you think the targets are called "Clay Pigeons?"

All Combat Oriented Games (3 gun comps, ISPC, IDPA etc.) are just that,,, Practice for Armed Conflict. (Would you try to rob a house if you knew an IDPA or 3 Gun Champ lived there?)

The competition only makes practicing and developing advanced shooting skills more fun, so you are more likely to do it. It also removes the Moral Dilemma of shooting at people or shooting at game that is not needed for survival.

In medieval England an Archer was required to shoot a competition at least once a month, and this was done so he could not only keep his skills up but his muscle tone as well. A 120lb Long Bow requires a lot of exercise to maintain.

All of the these skills come under the heading of Marksmanship. :Fire:

Sure some guns are specialized for whatever discipline they were designed to compete in,,, but I submit that those same guns could perform the same tasks that their games were designed to mimic in either the field or in battle if called on to do so.

I have many rifles, pistols, and shotguns. Few have been shot at living things, but all are quite capable of doing so. There is a saying,,,, "Any gun will do, if you will do."

To answer your original question,,, my accuracy standards are to shoot better this time than the last time no matter what I'm shooting. My rifles vary in accuracy from under 1" to over 3" at one hundred yards. My Ruger Scout and Guide Gun are the most accurate at under 1". My Enfield#4 and other Sporters and Marlin Leverguns are under 2", and my Mini14 is around 2.5-3.

Most of my rifles are sighted in dead on a 200 yards, and whatever the group size is at that range is what I have to live with. However in practical application my Mini14 at 3"/100 yards still 9" at 300 yards which is the effective range of the .223/5.56 cartridge and still in the Chest Cavity of a man sized target. So that is good enough for that gun and off a rest I can make that shot at 200 yards every single time using a inexpensive Red Dot Sighting System.

So I guess my accuracy standards REALLY ARE,,,, "Good Enough for what I'm doing." :mrgreen:

When I hit a Silhouette Ram at 500 Meters Offhand it is a pretty satisfying experience.

But it makes me dead sure that I could hit a Man at that distance every single time laying on the ground shooting off a rest. Thus that game enhances my skills for Long Range Shooting. Mind you, I am lucky to hit 1 or 2 out of 10 offhand, but off a rest as a result of that practice, I know exactly how much to dial into the Scope or Rear Sight, and that is because I have shot the gun at those distances and recorded the elevation offsets, and as a result I can hit with virtually every single shot.

Conversely my Glock 21 is probably a 4" gun at 25 yards so if I can keep all my shots in the chest at that distance I am jumping up and down.

And with that said, I see little reason to chase after "the" "Most Accurate Load for a Given Gun." As soon as the gun shoots well enough for it's intended purpose,,,, I'm done searching.

Thus my Standard Load for that gun has been found, and my accuracy standard has been met.

Randy

[jcwit]

With your logic I guess my car is designed as a deadly weapon as its very capable of mowing down bystanders.

[dtknowles]

Tim: Your Bench Rest Rifle only increases the effective range you can operate in,,, which directly translates to being able to control more area on a battlefield. Sure that gun is designed specifically to shoot small groups in targets at a long distance but that discipline translates directly to the Shooting Skills of a Sniper on the battlefield, or a Hunter trying to stalk an elusive prey. The top Bench Rest Shooter in my Club shot an Elk at a lazered 968 yards a few years ago with his Hunting Rifle. His skills obtained from shooting BR gave him the ability and confidence to be able to make that shot. you BR gun could probably make that shot as well.....Randy

My bench rest rifle has a stock that would be awkward in the field to say the least. It is chambered in 6mm PPC and would not be very effective beyond 200 yards as it has a slow twist and will only shoot light for caliber bullets and it has such a light trigger that it would be dangerous in the field. It is a single shot and does not have a safely when I want to safe the gun I remove the bolt. I shoot it free recoil, I don't put my shoulder to the stock.

I shoot other types many useful against game or in selfdefense. The one thing that I can take from bench rest shooting that apply to other shooting is doping the wind.

Tim

[RugerFan]

When I was hunting deer and hogs in GA, my goal for shooting cast in my scoped rifles in .30 and .35 cal was MOA @ 2,000 FPS. With careful load development I was generally able to achieve this with the exception of my #4 Mark 1/2 in .303 British. 1,800 FPS seemed to be the best I could do and hold decent accuracy. Still killed a spike buck very cleanly at 50 yards, so no big deal.

[Reverend Al]

When I was much younger (20's) I held myself to fairly high standards and worked very hard to be competitive in the shooting sports. When I was shooting competitive IPSC I shot twice a week, about 500 rounds per practice session, and averaged 50,000 rounds per year. For five years I had no life except cast, load, shoot, then repeat again for the next week. If I wasn't winning matches on a regular basis I felt I was not attaining the accuracy standards I had set for myself. As I got older my eyes got worse, my joints started to ache, a back injury from a car accident got progressively worse, and my knees are now at the point where replacement will likely be needed within a few more years. (I'm 63 now ...) I don't hold myself to the same accuracy standards for handgun, rifle or shotgun that I achieved in my youth since I no longer practice nearly as much, but I can still hold my own when I feel up to shooting along side the "young pups". I consider myself a better than average handgun shot, can still get reasonable hits on 100 and 200 yard targets with a rifle offhand if I don't drink too much coffee first, and shoot better than average scores on the Trap and Skeet field when I feel up to standing for that long. I'm definitely not the shot I used to be 30 years ago, but I still shoot well enough to be competitive and I'm happy with that considering all the factors ...

I've now gotten to the point in my life that I'm coaching and mentoring new shooters more often than I'm shooting myself and I'm also very happy with that as I find it very encouraging that there is a new generation who are actually showing an interest in the shooting sports!

[BigboreShooter]

I've told my wife many times.I'm not that good,everybody else is really bad!!!!

BigboreShooter

[W.R.Buchanan]

With your logic I guess my car is designed as a deadly weapon as its very capable of mowing down bystanders.

Why do you think they put those Big Bumpers on the front? :bigsmyl2:

Randy

[jonp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxbHCfy5A4

[PerpetualStudent]

I was offline for about a week and was quite happy to see even more good info added to the thread in my absence. There's a wealth of knowledge and contrasting views on this site that never ceases to inform and humble me.

I think fall somewhere between Tim and Randy here. I hope my guns are never anything other than a hobby I enjoy, but I chose them with an eye on their practical ability to kill things that need killing. And I do think the tradition of marksmanship and competition is related to that. It is a way of improving our ability to use firearms practically if and when that becomes necessary, but in the meantime it itself is a way to get enjoyment out of them. To use them safely- be familiar with them- but also enjoy using them. Most of the names I mentioned in a previous post were successful in competition but also used firearms for hunting and combat. Even Annie Oakley was an outspoken proponent of ladies using firearms for self defense if need be. The jack of all trades who can pick up a firearm and use it safely and well is a good person to attempt to be I think. And even modern competitors like Jerry Miculeck "cross train" and use firearms that aren't their competition guns and use them the best they can because it makes them better shooters.

I do want to also mention the "never good enough" line of thought. I'm a big fan of that kind of thinking in some ways and not in others. I believe that it's always good to push yourself to be the best you can be and work with where you are. But I also think objective standards are important. The nothing short of perfection as a way to keep pushing yourself contrasts very nicely with the excellent post by Randy. My take is that maybe part of the reason good competitors were also good soldiers is because if your normal standard is "apple at 100 yds" you should be able to easily transition to "torso at 100yds". The better you are at your best, the more likely you are to be good enough when it counts. And there's nothing like some compeition to help you become better (as several of you have mentioned). The downside comes when competition becomes specialized. Happens a lot with martial arts too. The competition becomes its own beast too far removed from its original intent: to make us better so we can be good enough when the chips are down. So benchrest and the top competitors of 3 gun are both beyond what I want to be. That requires too much specialization and too many training scars. I also don't want to be simply a hunter who puts a paper plat a 100 yds. Where exactly I want to be I don't quite know yet.

[W.R.Buchanan]

PS: don't get me wrong,, Everytime I shoot I am striving for perfection. Unfortunately,,, Reality gets in the way, and I have to live with what just happened. But my goal is perfection, and this extends to everything I do.

Perfection is unobtainable, however the pursuit of it must be relentless.

There is another tidbit I forgot to include. That is the 50% rule of Combat.

It states that when under the Stress of Armed Combat you will NOT rise to the occasion. Instead your abilities will deteriorate to @50% of your best day on the range during training.

I have experienced this first hand in a training simulation, and sucked badly under just that simulated environment which was probably nothing close to the real thing.

The Scenario was a Simulated Road Block. Me and my shooting partner who I had never seen before were in a truck, there were three fairly large targets at about 7 yards on my side and two at 5 yards on his.

On the go command, I drew my Glock 35 and stuck it out the window to engage my targets. I then promptly dropped the magazine from the gun. I brought the gun back into the truck and stuffed another mag into it and stuck it back out the window only to find I had not seated it and I almost dropped it as well. I reseated it and proceded to put two shots on all three targets. Total time maybe 15 seconds and I would have easily been dead 3 times .

All of this took place during a hale of gunfire from the other side of the truck where my partner had gotten out of the truck and was hiding behind the door. He had emptied two 15+ round magazines and failed to make a hit on even one target. These targets were 18x24" and were at 5 yards or 15 feet from him!

We both sucked, however the lesson was that stress makes you worse not better..

The moral of this story is the better you shoot the closer you can get to that 50% chance of surviving a gun fight. If you are a 90% shooter on the range that's 45% in the fight, and pretty much a coin toss. If you are a 50% shooter that equates to 25% chance you will prevail,,, which is 3:1 against you! IE; you suck big time and should consider other options... like running!

Avoidance is always the best option, but if you can't avoid you better be ready to win.

My whole point here is that all of us need to strive to do the best we can everytime,,, no matter what it is we are doing. This will show up as our optimum path to survival. We need to be in Condition Yellow all of our waking hours, every day. We need to be aware of what is happening around us, because this is the very thing that keeps us alive. When you snooze,,, you lose!

Everything in this Universe has one thing in common,,, And that is "Survival ."

In order to survive you must strive to be the best you can be in everything you do. You can never give up and if the fight starts going against you,,, you must Reach Deeper and Fight Harder. Winning must be your only goal. There is no second place!

Everything we do at the range is leading up to that, and only if we succeed, do we Survive.

Read my signature below. Being good at a lot of things,,, is better than being perfect at only one thing.

Randy

[AlaskaScott]

I haven't read all the way through, but I only shoot at a paper target for sighting in, or testing loads. Otherwise I pick something down range and see how many rounds it takes me to shoot close enough for something(rock, debris, piece of clay pigeon) to disappear. With pistol at 25 yards two handed while standing I hit a 1" target within 3 shots. With scoped rifle I get a 1" at 100 yds in 2 shots (cheap Scope, but I just got a nxs 8-32)

[Blackwater]

You know, after reading these comments, I recall a friend of mine in MS who isn't much of a target shot, but who never seems to miss a deer, and is deadly on squirrels as well. And I think of my own son, who was so good early on that I began to have images and some aspirations of his shooting in the Olympics for us one day. But neither of them care to shoot at paper targets. Put hair, hide or feathers in front of them, though, and they're both as deadly as a man can be. Doesn't matter if the game is running or still, near or far, they just "zero in" with an obsessive desire to bring it to pot, and they never seem to miss game.

I think this is largely due to the simple factor of focus. It was puzzling to me for a long time, but neither cared a whit about punching holes in paper. My son would typically shoot a very tight clover leaf at 100 with his 6mm., and then the last 2 shots would open up the group to 1" or a little over. Once he saw what his gun could do, and that it was hitting dead on where it was supposed to, his focus just relaxed and his groups would then open up. I could consistently put 5 into 5/8" any day or time with that rifle, but he just couldn't or didn't maintain his focus for all 5 shots. He just didn't see the point. And he's seen me shoot good 5 shot groups, and knew the rifle was capable of great shooting, so once he was satisfied, his focus just waned, and his groups opened.

My friend in MS is a life long hunter, and gets excited at any chase or hunt. He absolutely loves to hunt squirrels, and has always had some of the best (usually Jack Russell) squirrel dogs I've ever seen. I used to think that anyone and everyone who could shoot targets could shoot deer, or whatever. But I know a bow hunter who used to win all the local club's target shoots, and he hunted for years before finally calming down enough to take a deer. His problem wasn't accuracy potential. It was "target panic," or whatever term you want to use to describe getting overly excited when the quarry finally appears before you.

So performance on target, and performance in action isn't ALWAYS the same thing. But accuracy on target and in the field alike IS always based on focus and intent. "That looks good enough to squeeze the trigger" may be "good enough" for some, but it'll never be "enough" for the really great shots. Most of what makes a really good shot so consistent and accurate is really focus and intent, moreso than I think it is any real superior talent, at least usually. The average Joe just doesn't focus as sharply or intently, and doesn't INTEND to hit stock, dead center, but "somewhere near the center is good enough."

It's said that in all sports, it's much more a "mental" game than it is a physical one. It took me a long time to "get" that, but it's really true. In all things, we generally get what we're willing to settle for. The great shots just don't settle, and don't get upset when one shot strays. They know they're going to fall short once in a great while. So, they just put the next one in the center of the "X" as if for spite, and to re-prove to themselves that they CAN.

So for anyone wanting to shoot better, my first recommendation would be to check your focus and your true intent. Are you REALLY focused on hitting the center of the X? Are you REALLY intending to DO it, vs. just think about it as a possibility? These two keys, I think, are what separates the passable from the excellent shots. It's more about motivation, intent and focus than it is about natural physical talent.

I've taught a number of women to shoot, and universally (so far at least), they've consistently out-shot the men I've taught. Why? They LISTEN. Then they try to UNDERSTAND. Then they try to PROVE it on target. And I've had more than one turn to me with a surprised smile and say, "Why this is easy! I thought it'd be a lot harder than it is!" And they were all right, too. It really is simple and easy to align the sights and learn to squeeze the trigger without moving the sights. What's hard, usually, for most, is keeping their focus and intentions consistently zeroed in on cutting that X out of the target.

If you want to get better, you probably already know how to align the sights, and squeeze off without moving the sights. All you really need to do is focus more intently, and truly INTEND to cut that X. Most folks don't have a physical problem. They simply have a focus and intent problem. Next time you're on the range, give it a try and see what you think. Proving things for your own self is the only way any of us ever got better. And it's the same for all of us, and not one of us gets better except through better practice. Practicing being mediocre just breeds and instills mediocrity within us. We were once a "nation of riflemen" and generally "marksmen." Those folks often shot for their supper, so they HAD great reason to focus intently and great intentions to carry the game home to eat. Now, we can go pick up a burger and fries if we miss, so many get too lacadaisical with their shooting, and mediocrity is so well accepted today that many don't even WANT to get really good, lest they stand out and become regarded as "show offs." But mediocrity in battle or self defense can put us in the morgue or a dirt grave somewhere! We can never know when we may desperately NEED to shoot "above our heads," and so many don't practice really well, or focus well, or even INTEND to hit anything other than the paper "somewhere."

We can't reach goals we don't strive for, and EARN. And the only way to get good, is to really question ourselves, our motivations and proceedures, and keep trying new things until we can GET good, to really good. And it really DOES make a big difference on both target and in the field. But we have to get our focus and intent in line or all the practice in the world is just practicing to be mediocre consistently. And that's a waste of time and effort and money. Our choice, always. But see next time, if you can't challenge yourself a little. And when you get that down pat, challenge yourself to do better yet. I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut that you'll find that focus and intent become your own key ingredients to getting to be really good, too.

[fiberoptik]

PS: don't get me wrong,, Everytime I shoot I am striving for perfection. Unfortunately,,, Reality gets in the way, and I have to live with what just happened. But my goal is perfection, and this extends to everything I do.

Perfection is unobtainable, however the pursuit of it must be relentless.

There is another tidbit I forgot to include. That is the 50% rule of Combat.

It states that when under the Stress of Armed Combat you will NOT rise to the occasion. Instead your abilities will deteriorate to @50% of your best day on the range during training.

I have experienced this first hand in a training simulation, and sucked badly under just that simulated environment which was probably nothing close to the real thing.

The Scenario was a Simulated Road Block. Me and my shooting partner who I had never seen before were in a truck, there were three fairly large targets at about 7 yards on my side and two at 5 yards on his.

On the go command, I drew my Glock 35 and stuck it out the window to engage my targets. I then promptly dropped the magazine from the gun. I brought the gun back into the truck and stuffed another mag into it and stuck it back out the window only to find I had not seated it and I almost dropped it as well. I reseated it and proceded to put two shots on all three targets. Total time maybe 15 seconds and I would have easily been dead 3 times .

All of this took place during a hale of gunfire from the other side of the truck where my partner had gotten out of the truck and was hiding behind the door. He had emptied two 15+ round magazines and failed to make a hit on even one target. These targets were 18x24" and were at 5 yards or 15 feet from him!

We both sucked, however the lesson was that stress makes you worse not better..

The moral of this story is the better you shoot the closer you can get to that 50% chance of surviving a gun fight. If you are a 90% shooter on the range that's 45% in the fight, and pretty much a coin toss. If you are a 50% shooter that equates to 25% chance you will prevail,,, which is 3:1 against you! IE; you suck big time and should consider other options... like running!

Avoidance is always the best option, but if you can't avoid you better be ready to win.

My whole point here is that all of us need to strive to do the best we can everytime,,, no matter what it is we are doing. This will show up as our optimum path to survival. We need to be in Condition Yellow all of our waking hours, every day. We need to be aware of what is happening around us, because this is the very thing that keeps us alive. When you snooze,,, you lose!

Everything in this Universe has one thing in common,,, And that is "Survival ."

In order to survive you must strive to be the best you can be in everything you do. You can never give up and if the fight starts going against you,,, you must Reach Deeper and Fight Harder. Winning must be your only goal. There is no second place!

Everything we do at the range is leading up to that, and only if we succeed, do we Survive.

Read my signature below. Being good at a lot of things,,, is better than being perfect at only one thing.

Randy

Well said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SteelHorseCowboy]

Question for Randy: Do you have any actual combat experience? Meaning, have you ever had to actually kill or attempt to kill a living, breathing, moving human being doing their dead level best to make you deader quicker?

Quite bluntly, I take commando talk from tacticool schools with a grain of salt. I've BTDT and have had quite a few students try to school me on combat. It ain't the same. My favorite to listen to are those like my stepsons though, 18 and 19 trying to talk combat with me based on their time playing Call of Duty and paintballing. Always leads to good humor.

A few things you've got right for sure, some of which are that no amount of training prepares you; and throw the 50% **** out the window, because the reality is that MOST people will not rise to the occasion. But you are also correct in that, training does help your chances, and striving for perfection is always a must.

One thing Blackwater absolutely NAILED, "Performance on target, and performance in action isn't ALWAYS the same thing."
That works both ways. I've seen Marines, similar to his son and MS hunting friend, who excelled in action but took multiple attempts to even qualify on the range.
And I've seen some excel on the range and run every combat scenario perfectly, dump 30 rounds into the dirt 5 feet in front of them and drop their magazine during a reload while crapping their pants.

To your 50% rule put together with Blackwater's target vs action example, most won't rise to the occasion, no. The ones who will fail and the ones who survive may be the ones that surprise you most. THAT is why, sorry, I mean no disrespect, folks who've never killed a man yet give advice from their expensive school experience, have a very hard time gaining my ear.

Pretty much all the "rules" I've ever read are utter ****.

SteelHorseCowboy's rules of gunfighting (combat, not self defense)
1. Understand that someone should be dead at the end.
2. Understand that "someone" may be you.
3. Forget the value of human life, especially your own.
4. Embrace hate in your heart.
5. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

Quit caring whether you live or die and it'll calm the nerves. Hate your enemy so that you won't hesitate to kill them. When it's time to kill them, with calm nerves and hate it your heart, make the act of taking their life a methodical, deliberate action.

Last but not least, I think that although PerpetualStudent values the input, his question seemed pretty well aimed (no pun intended) towards what kind of accuracy people strive for on the range.

So, with THAT in mind, why don't you share with us what your standards for perfection are? What kind of accuracy in a given scenario?

[SteelHorseCowboy]

C. r. a: p
Is censored here? Wow. That's a tight language filter. I heard lecturers in seminary use that word regularly.

[dtknowles]

C. r. a: p
Is censored here? Wow. That's a tight language filter. I heard lecturers in seminary use that word regularly.

Yeah, but they let us use hell now.

Tim

[SteelHorseCowboy]

Yeah, but they let us use hell now.

Tim
Well at least that's something. I just hate for anyone to get the mistaken impression I'm using a harsher 4-letter word though.

[dtknowles]

Well at least that's something. I just hate for anyone to get the mistaken impression I'm using a harsher 4-letter word though.

Yeah, I have used that c word a few times only to see the asterisk, I go back and edit to fix.

Tim

[SteelHorseCowboy]

Yeah, I have used that c word a few times only to see the asterisk, I go back and edit to fix.

Tim
Meh. I'm not gonna bother. That post will probably be taken as inflammatory anyway.