32/20 or 327 Mag Contender?

[hendere]

If you were going to obtain a 10" Contender barrel in either 32-20 (30-20) or 327 Magnum which would you choose and why? Assuming cast loads.

Side question, can regular .311 to .313 32-20 loads be used in the 32-20 barrel with the .308 bore or do you need special dies and smaller boolits?

[HABCAN]

.32-20! .327 brass is too rare here, but YMMV.

With a .308 bore and expanding plug in the dies, my Contender eats as-cast PB'd LEE C309-113-F @ .312 with aplomb.

[curator]

A Contender chambered in .327 Mag would be able to use .32 S&W, S&W long, H&R Mag, and .327 Mag brass. One chambered in .32-20 would be able to use only .32-20 cases. A few years ago, .32-20 cases were on back order for nearly 2 years. Case availability is a plus unless you sock away a lifetime's supply. You might check the rifling twist on both barrels. The slow twist of most .32-20 barrels (1 in 20") preclude the possibility of heavy for the caliber boolits shooting accurately. As I recall some T/C .32-20 barrels were .308 bore. These handles standard .32-20 factory ammo with .311+ diameter bullets just fine. Reloading .32-20 with .308 bullets may require a smaller than standard neck expander and a separate crimp die.

[JSH]

32-20/30-20 factory TC barrels were all .308 bore. There are some TCA barrels that were .312/.313. TCA barrels will have TCA stamped on them.
I have shot a lot out of my 30-20 factory barrel, jacketed and cast. It will do what the 30x221 varieties can for the most part. Twist is 1-10 on factory barrels.
I have used 110-200 grain bullets with a 140-180 being what mine likes. AA#9 is my go to powder.
The lee 3 die set will work pretty good for .308, as the sizer sizes down enough. Just keep an eye on your powder through expander.
The 30-20 will leave the 327 in the dust, with modern loads. The 30-20 considered a wildcat of sorts in some circles, there is data out there just for these guns.
Get a couple hundred pieces of starline brass. Treat it like 22 hornet. I have some that has been reloaded at least 15 times with a 165 CB and a dose of WC820.
Pretty mich anything you know about a bolt or lever gun does not apply to this platform. The throats are fairly long, so you can seat a heavy for caliber out
of the case,thus giving you more case capacity.

[Ben]

I'd been wanting to test my new NOE 100 gr. SWC cast bullet in my T/C , H & R Mag.
I really like the .32 H & R Mag.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/PICT0023.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/haysb/media/PICT0023.jpg.html)
I was not disappointed in the least.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/IMAG0661.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/haysb/media/IMAG0661.jpg.html)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/IMAG0663.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/haysb/media/IMAG0663.jpg.html)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/IMAG0664.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/haysb/media/IMAG0664.jpg.html)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/IMAG0665.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/haysb/media/IMAG0665.jpg.html)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/IMAG0666.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/haysb/media/IMAG0666.jpg.html)

[hendere]

Great info guys, I appreciate it. I load both for other guns and probably have a lifetime supply of each brass. I certainly like the idea of dealing with a straight walled case and carbide dies, but it sounds like the 30-20 is pretty easy to do. 30-20 barrels should be a lot cheaper also. I'm leaning towards that.

[sharps4590]

32-20, hands down. Been shooting 4 of them for.....a long time, decades. My favorite "small bore".

[MT Gianni]

The 32-20 at one time was a factory cartridge for the Contender. I asked Ace Dubbe about chambering a case adaptor to shoot 327 in a contender and he told me that the factory PSI of 327 @ 42500 CPU was too hot for a contender. Stick with the 32-20 but don't be fooled into thinking it will outperform a 327 Fed.

[dtknowles]

The 32-20 at one time was a factory cartridge for the Contender. I asked Ace Dubbe about chambering a case adaptor to shoot 327 in a contender and he told me that the factory PSI of 327 @ 42500 CPU was too hot for a contender. Stick with the 32-20 but don't be fooled into thinking it will outperform a 327 Fed.

You can get contender barrels in .223 and its SAAMI pressure spec is 55,000. Something about your post does not compute.

Tim

[Sur-shot]

The first time I saw a silhouette shooter carry a 30-20 to the line was real early at Ft Stockton, in big bore, standing. He pulled a shot low and hit the post a chicken was sitting on, the 150gr bullet went right through the 3" steel pipe, like it was not there. I said to myself, whoa, go look at that, which I did. Later I bought a TC barrel, a BF and a Merrill barrel in 30-20, all .308 and all 1-10 twist. I prefer 4227 as a powder (H-110 works well also) primer, I use Fed 205ms and the RCBS 150, 165 and 180. The modern dies come with a 30 cal expander ball and a 311 ball. The little 30 has no trouble handling steel rams and being accurate enough to shoot the shoot-offs at 200 meters. The recoil is pleasant as is the muzzle blast, brass can also be made from the 25-20 with one pass. You can shoot big bore and field pistol or hunter pistol with the 32-20.

Oh, the little 30-20 produces single didget standard deviation numbers with just about any bullet and powder combo it likes, down into the 3 and 4s. 1680 is also a good powder for the little cartridge, pushing over 1400 fps with a 165. Wayne Smith out of Bagdad, FL on this site is an old 30-20 shooter. His 200gr Sako bullets work well.
Ed

[mcdaniel.mac]

The 32-20 at one time was a factory cartridge for the Contender. I asked Ace Dubbe about chambering a case adaptor to shoot 327 in a contender and he told me that the factory PSI of 327 @ 42500 CPU was too hot for a contender. Stick with the 32-20 but don't be fooled into thinking it will outperform a 327 Fed.

.30-30 clocks in at 42,000, there's no reason the .327 shouldn't be doable even at 45,000, same as the Contender specific 7-30 Waters. I think you may have been lead astray.

[Hickory]

.30-30 clocks in at 42,000, there's no reason the .327 shouldn't be doable even at 45,000.

You need to take in the surface area on the head of the cartridge when considering pressure and back thrust of the case after being fired.
Example, You are wearing a tee shirt, I take a pencil place the eraser end against your chest and press it against your chest with 85 lbs. of pressure, not much will happen. However, if I reverse the same pencil and put the point against your chest and apply 85 lbs. of pressure there maybe some damage to your body. The larger area can absorbs the pressure, the small end will penetrate and damage.
The same is true with cartridges with small surface area on the head on the cartridge.
The reason the 45-70 can be shot in a T/C Contender is because the area of the cartridge head during back thrust is spread over a larger surface area.

Note: The head of the cartridge is where the primer and lettering is not the part of the cartridge that comes out the barrel!

[rockrat]

I would go with the 327mag, just because of the carbide dies.

[NoZombies]

You need to take in the surface area on the head of the cartridge when considering pressure and back thrust of the case after being fired.
Example, You are wearing a tee shirt, I take a pencil place the eraser end against your chest and press it against your chest with 85 lbs. of pressure, not much will happen. However, if I reverse the same pencil and put the point against your chest and apply 85 lbs. of pressure there maybe some damage to your body. The larger area can absorbs the pressure, the small end will penetrate and damage.
The same is true with cartridges with small surface area on the head on the cartridge.
The reason the 45-70 can be shot in a T/C Contender is because the are of the cartridge head during back thrust is spread over a larger surface area.

Note: The head of the cartridge is where the primer and lettering is not the part of the cartridge that comes out the barrel!


While your pencil point and eraser analogy are great visuals, they, and your logic are inverted, and therefore fail to convey case head thrust accurately.

Because pounds *PER SQUARE INCH* is a key in determining case head thrust, the same pressure in a larger diameter case head exerts substantially more *actual* pressure on the breech face. For instance, a 1 square inch case head at 50,000 PSI exerts a total of 50,000 pounds of pressure to the breech face. a 1/2 square inch case head at 50,000 PSI only exerts 25,000 pounds of pressure (half the area, half the pressure).

All of that does nothing to take into account factors like the case gripping the chamber walls etc, but provides a simplified explanation that should be easy to understand.

[Hickory]

While your pencil point and eraser analogy are great visuals, they, and your logic are inverted, and therefore fail to convey case head thrust accurately.
.

How about this one:
I take a woman's Hi heel shoe and hit you on the top of the head with the sole of the shoe, you will notice this, Yes?
then I take the same shoe and hit you on the top of the head with the heel, you may not notice this until you wake up in the hospital.
The larger surface area will not cause the same thrust into your brain as the smaller and pointed heel.

[NoZombies]

How about this one:
I take a woman's Hi heel shoe and hit you on the top of the head with the sole of the shoe, you will notice this, Yes?
then I take the same shoe and hit you on the top of the head with the heel, you may not notice this until you wake up in the hospital.
The larger surface area will not cause the same thrust into your brain as the smaller and pointed heel.

I'm afraid your logic is still inverted, PSI is pounds per square inch. Less area applying pressure at the same PSI is less overall pressure applied.

1 million pounds per square inch over one millionth of a square inch applies one pound of pressure. one pound per square inch applied over a million square inches applies a million pounds of pressure.

[dtknowles]

How about this one:
I take a woman's Hi heel shoe and hit you on the top of the head with the sole of the shoe, you will notice this, Yes?
then I take the same shoe and hit you on the top of the head with the heel, you may not notice this until you wake up in the hospital.
The larger surface area will not cause the same thrust into your brain as the smaller and pointed heel.

The case head is not going to penetrate the breach face, brass is soft. The pressure loads is putting strain in the locking mechanism. Pressure times area equals the force trying to break open the action.

Tim

[Ramjet-SS]

327 Brass can be had rather easy just order it from Starline. I run a MiHec mould a 120 grain GC HP it is outstanding from a 6" revolver it would be excellent from a 8-10" barreled Contender. I wild guess you could drive that bullet to 1600 FPS easily.

Plus as others have said 32 long 32 HR mag and 327 all from the same gun.

[Hickory]

What I'm trying to say is over a period of time with the intense back thrust to the recoil shield of a T/C Contender it will damage the gun. This is the reason T/C started producing the Encore, to overcome this problem. Have you ever noticed that the Encore and the newer Contenders have extra metal on the frame to help support the recoil shield?

You folks need to do some critical thinking.

[NoZombies]

You folks need to do some critical thinking.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but your logic and understanding of physics is wrong, and saying I need to think critically doesn't change that.

[JSH]

The 32-20 at one time was a factory cartridge for the Contender. I asked Ace Dubbe about chambering a case adaptor to shoot 327 in a contender and he told me that the factory PSI of 327 @ 42500 CPU was too hot for a contender. Stick with the 32-20 but don't be fooled into thinking it will outperform a 327 Fed.

Sorry to disagree. Factory loads I should say not. A hand load will most certainly get an edge over a 327. You just cannot replace cubic inches so to speak. I am talking from having shot thousands of rounds through a TC at big and small steel targets.

To to get the 327 to perform with anything you will be pushing pressures with mid range to fast powders.

My ruger buckeye 32/20 will push a 140 plain base to 1550 fps with a dose of H110/296.

[JSH]

In the late 80's, when IHMSA was still a popular game, the boys at Sierra did some load work with the 30-20. They had my barrel,another gents barrel and his BF. Initial work was done with the TC barrels. Jacketed bullets from 110-220 were tested.
They then started on the BF platform. This is where the cow ate the cabbage. The BF had way less generous throats. There was no way to tweak any safe performance out of the cartridge let alone make the loads interchangeable between the two.
There are several folks out there that would like to take credit for this work. I have the original spread sheets from Sierra. I have shared them with others that have taken a liking to this cartridge.
I am pretty sure I have shared it with several here in years past, which in turn has been shared with others.

The loads and data are for modern design guns only. Most of these loads would probably not cycle through a lever gun. An early revolver maybe, and it would come apart.
I look at this like a Blackhawk only load or what is done with the 45-70, no different.

Yes the the one disadvantage is it is not a straight walled cartridge. Thus no carbide dies that I am aware of. I have gotten along fine with my steel die sets for crowding 30
years.
The 327 is what the 32 mag should have been. The 30-20 is what the 327 wants to be.

[Hickory]

I'll try t explain this one last time.
Most will agree that pressure is pressure, no matter what the source.
Let approach this from the stand point of water. Let's say the pressure inside a 1" hose is 50 psi. The hose is capped, no water is flowing. There is 50 psi being exerted in all directions inside the hose. Let's say for the sake of argument that the end of the hose is square and it is one inch square. Now, the end of the hose is uncapped, the 50 lbs of pressure is released, something quite similar to firing a gun. As soon as the water is released the pressure falls off and the distance the water shoots out of the hose is ten feet and falls off into a steady stream of 7 feet.
Now, let's reduce the opening to half an inch. The pressure inside the hose is still 50 psi. Using your logic, at the end of the hose the pressure is now 25 psi because it is only half as big or half the size of the original opening. When the end of the hose is uncorked the stream of water will only shoot out to 5 feet and fall off to a steady stream of 3.5 feet.

I contend that the reduced opening, which could be viewed as a smaller cartridge head, will have the same pressure, but in a smaller area which actually compounds the the amount of pounds per square inch into a smaller area. The water that will come out of the reduced opening will shoot farther then the larger opening, even though the pressure is the same.

[45workhorse]

Starline has both rounds.


• 500 ($111.50) 32-20
500 ($121.50) .327 mag
Both are in stock now. Just looked.

[mcdaniel.mac]

I'll try t explain this one last time.
Most will agree that pressure is pressure, no matter what the source.
Let approach this from the stand point of water. Let's say the pressure inside a 1" hose is 50 psi. The hose is capped, no water is flowing. There is 50 psi being exerted in all directions inside the hose. Let's say for the sake of argument that the end of the hose is square and it is one inch square. Now, the end of the hose is uncapped, the 50 lbs of pressure is released, something quite similar to firing a gun. As soon as the water is released the pressure falls off and the distance the water shoots out of the hose is ten feet and falls off into a steady stream of 7 feet.
Now, let's reduce the opening to half an inch. The pressure inside the hose is still 50 psi. Using your logic, at the end of the hose the pressure is now 25 psi because it is only half as big or half the size of the original opening. When the end of the hose is uncorked the stream of water will only shoot out to 5 feet and fall off to a steady stream of 3.5 feet.

I contend that the reduced opening, which could be viewed as a smaller cartridge head, will have the same pressure, but in a smaller area which actually compounds the the amount of pounds per square inch into a smaller area. The water that will come out of the reduced opening will shoot farther then the larger opening, even though the pressure is the same.
No, if you reduce the diameter of the nozzle but maintain the rate of flow, the pressure will double, not halve.

P=F/A and there's no two ways about it. If the area increases, the force decreases to maintain the same pressure. If the force remains the same and the area increases, the pressure decreases. If you drop a 4lb 2' long rod of depleted uranium and a 4lb 2' long rod of lead, aluminum, they both hit with the exact same *force* (assuming the drop is short enough that the acceleration is not significantly impeded by air resistance) but the denser rod of depleted uranium is much smaller in diameter, and the same force will be spread across less surface area.

P=F/A. If you find a way to increase pressure while increasing surface area and maintaining force, you'll be an impossibly rich man.

[Hickory]

Because pounds *PER SQUARE INCH* is a key in determining case head thrust, the same pressure in a larger diameter case head exerts substantially more *actual* pressure on the breech face. For instance, a 1 square inch case head at 50,000 PSI exerts a total of 50,000 pounds of pressure to the breech face. a 1/2 square inch case head at 50,000 PSI only exerts 25,000 pounds of pressure (half the area, half the pressure).


[QUOTE=mcdaniel.mac;3824064]No, if you reduce the diameter of the nozzle but maintain the rate of flow, the pressure will double, not halve. [QUOTE]
This is exactly what I was saying. You have nozombie confused with me.
Don't confuse the issue.

[NoZombies]

I just love arguing physics with people who think they understand something because "it makes sense" to them.

To bring the thread a little closer to home, the .327 and .223 share the same case head diameter, so there would be zero problems with a .327 in a contender, since the .223 is considered absolutely safe at 10K psi higher pressure.

[NoZombies]

And for those still confused about case head diameters and pressures, Mike Bellm has some words on the subject:

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=690

[TCLouis]

32-20
Brass a little easier to find.

John Taffin had some very impressive TC Contender ONLY loaddata in a long ago American Handgunner.

[Hickory]

I read the Bellm article and concede that I was mistaken.

[NoZombies]

I read the Bellm article and concede that I was mistaken.

I apologize for being combative in my responses.

[dtknowles]

I read the Bellm article and concede that I was mistaken.

It take a big man to make that concession, none of us are to old to learn. You have my respect.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I apologize for being combative in my responses.

You dug in your heals after I let it go, I am glad you did as Hickory is now smarter and so is the board. Thanks.

Tim

[Hickory]

I am glad you did as Hickory is now smarter and so is the board. Tim

I learn something new here all the time.

[NoZombies]

Being wrong on the internet is easy, I do it all the time. Admitting your wrong is hard, and I have a lot of respect for someone who can do that.

[dtknowles]

I learn something new here all the time.

Yes, this is a great place even when we get on each others case.

Tim

[mcdaniel.mac]

I learn something new here all the time.
Me too, best reason to be here.

[hendere]

See? That's why this board rocks. Great info and everyone walks away happy. Thanks everyone. I'm sourcing a 30-20 barrel now but fully expect folks smarter than I to work up incredible things with the 327 so I can do that also.

[JSH]

A second to all the above. Something typed rather than something said in person can be taken so many different ways.
Good discussion.

[MNruss]

This place rocks.
Actual manners, grace, & honor are VERY scarce in the internet.
Hats off to you all.

Russ

[Greg S]

327 Fed Mag hands down. You can also use 32 S&W Long and H&R Mag. For top end loads 327 brass will last longer than thin 32-20.

[historicfirearms]

This is the only respectable place left online. Cast boolit people are good people.

[dtknowles]

327 Fed Mag hands down. You can also use 32 S&W Long and H&R Mag. For top end loads 327 brass will last longer than thin 32-20.

That matters if you shoot factory ammo. If you hand load, you can load 32-20 from Mild to Wild and not have a long jump to the lands.

Tim

[quilbilly]

I have had my 32/20 10" Contender for many years and of all the barrels I have, it is far and away my favorite (and I like them all). It has become my "walking around" varmint pistol for when I travel to places like Nevada and Utah where a hunting license isn't required for pests. When first shooting it I tried high velocity "Contender only" loads and quickly found that with CB's accuracy fell off above 1400 fps with 120 gr boolits. When I did terminal ballistics tests in wet, compressed newsprint media, the performance tests showed velocities above 1400 fps weren't necessary. Using iron sights, any coyote that stops long enough at 150 yards for my old eyes to focus will have just committed suicide. A small ( under 100# live) deer at under 70 yards would also be in serious trouble if that pistol was all I had at the time. My preferred load is 9.4 gr of 2400. When our grandfathers created the 32/20, they knew what they were doing and nothing has changed.

[merlin101]

I was getting into the discussion between Hickory and Nozombies because they BOTH seemed to make sense to me! Glad ya got it all figured out, now I gotta go out and find a 32-20 barrel for my TC.

[Bigslug]

Life is simpler with straightwall cases.

[saleen322]

I have a 10" Contender in 32-20 and two revolvers in 327 mag. SAMMI lists max on the 32-20 at 17K CUP and the 327 mag at 45K PSI. Lyman lists the 32-20 revolver top load of 115 gn @ 901 fps (13.2K CUP) and the top modern 32-20 firearm load 115 gn @ 1400 fps out of a 14" barrel (16K CUP). The 327 mag will shoot a 120 gn @ 1520 fps from a 5.5" revolver. While the Contender will hold pressure and the barrel is not in question, the brass is still very thin compared to 327 which is built to take pressure. I like them both but if I have to have the highest velocity, it would be the 327.

[P Flados]

Shooting either 0.308" or the "32's" out of a tender can make for great plinking, target practice and/or small critter hunting. For sub 35 bore handguns, either of these two make for better boolit choices than anything smaller.

For me, I had issues with my sources of low cost lead this summer. On the other hand my lead usage rate was higher than ever. My first response was to drop my 38s from 158/140 to 110's for most volume shooting.

Not satisfied, I tried an experiment. I ended making a 60 gr RNFP double cavity, no lube groove, 0.310" mold to fit Std 2 cavity Lee handles. I size to 0.309", BLL single coat tumble lube, seat in 30 Herrett cases over 3.1 gr of TightGroup.

It also out to be my fastest & easiest casting mold. I can get it doing good ones fast, I can cut the sprue (by hand with a gloove - no tapper needed) with zero wait, the boolits just fall out of the cavities, even a small pot of lead does a full session and my cull rate is very low.

They shoot fine in my TC 10" bull barrel. This is now my go-to load for my ~weekly practice session for shooting a Contender off hand. It works good enough such that I quit looking for a 30 carbine, 32-20, 327 or similar barrel.

I now have a hard case of "I wanna 32 cal revolver" with lots of expected ammo usage. At the moment, my preference list goes 5.5" Ruger single seven, Ruger 4.2" SP101 327, 7.5" Ruger single seven. I am thinking that a self obtained Christmas gift is likely in the very near future (Wife already said OK).

The 327 TC barrel has a pretty big edge if a future 32 revolver is likely. I also really like the carbide sizer - straight wall benefit.

For others, there is another angle that might should be considered. If I was buying a new Contender barrel for "fun first" but then with an eye for possible more than just fun use, the 30 or 32 cal range would be at the top of the list. However, brass cost/availability would be the next concern. Just think of how many times you read posts by people that love how a round shoots, but hate the cost / shortage of brass. For me, I refuse to buy loaded ammo. My shooting volumes work best with 200 cases as Ok but 1000 as nicer (my reloading press feeds an entire family). I grimace at the thought of $0.20 per round for 327 brass. I have cobbled up a way to convert 223/5.56 brass to 327 cases, but it is a pain & I am not sure how well they will work. Since my revolver lust is what it is, the 327 is my only real option, but I would not do it if I has a better choice.

If you consider brass issues as a high priority, a 300 BO starts looking pretty good for a Contender. Barrels are not a problem. No reason a 300 BO can not be a "fun gun". Lots of folks have found great Contender plinking / target service from light boolits and small powder charges in cartridges up to the 30-30. If you are willing to do the relatively easy work of converting 223/5.56, it is hard to find a cheaper round for brass supply. Once fired factory brass in 300 BO is also findable if you try (I have a couple of dozen). A potentially bigger upside for many would be the flexibility for more serious applications.

For me, another interesting choice would be a 30 badger. For a 30 or 32 bore round I can not think of one with easier/cheaper brass (I have more than 2 gallons of empty 38 specials). The big downside for this round would be the effort/cost to get a barrel.

A 30 Reece is very similar to a 30 badger, is available from MGM and can be made from a "not to bad" round, the 357 mag. However, if I was going a 357 brass based round, the question becomes "why not the 256 Winchester".