Ok curiosity got me thinkin' again...

[GoodOlBoy]

a response to another post I replied to got me thinkin' about something I had forgotten about for a long time. At one point there was a fella who use to hit up the same range as me and a buddy and he had an OLD 1911 (not A1) that had a smooth-bore barrel. Can't remember the brand of the gun but this guy had some very old military surplus ball ammo he would use for plinking with (he must have had a ton of it stored up back then) and he could outshoot all of us with that old smoothbore pistol. So I was wondering if anybody knew offhand of a place a fella might could acquire a smoothbore 1911 barrel. I've got a buddy who is thinking about getting into casting, and since I don't touch lead myself currently (cancer, oncologist, etc over a year ago) but DO still have an old lyman hollowbase mold somewhere I was thinking I could "instruct" this buddy of mine on casting his own using that mold and wind up with some fodder to test in a smoothbore barrel.

not a emergency case, not a "I have to do this RIGHT NOW" type of thing. Just a curiosity and something for the "have you tried this" file...

anyway I appreciate any info or discussion, especially if anybody else has already played with this combo.

God Bless, and One Love.

GoodOlBoy

[Der Gebirgsjager]

An interesting topic! Are you sure that the barrel was actually made as, or was converted to, a smooth bore? I have seen 1911 barrels dating back to WW I that have been fired so much that they seem to be a smooth bore when clean, but when fouled or with a bit of oil in them one can still see a faint trace of rifling. And, as per your observation, they sometimes shoot better than one would expect. The bores I have seen that were made smooth were usually done by someone who had snake shot in mind.

My instinct is that were you to create a smooth bore barrel you'd find that on a silhouette target at 7 and 15 yards most shots would be in the black, but I think accuracy would suffer badly at 25 yards and beyond. I guess the only way you'll find out for sure is to try it.

My first pistol at age 15 was a 1911 and it had a sewer pipe bore. Nevertheless it would routinely center punch a 2 lb. coffee can at 25 yards. I eventually replaced it with an almost new Colt commercial barrel, but can not claim that it shot any better. I recall years ago reading an article about a test done by Army Ordnance to determine what the accuracy life of the 1911 barrel was and at what point they should be replaced. The study was a result of the weapons being returned to storage following WW II and the pitted and severely worn bores of many specimens. The test concluded that barrels that appeared very bad could still usually shoot at least satisfactorily and some quite well, but the policy was to replace them anyway.

[Mk42gunner]

A worn barrel as DG describes would be perfectly legal, while a purpose built smoothbore would be an NFA item.

I wouldn't jump through all the hoops to get a legal smoothbore pistol, and I absolutely would not have an illegal one since I am allergic to jail cells.

Robert

[Oyeboten]

If someone is able to "outshoot" others using a smoothbore m1911...I think what this is actually saying, is that the others were really poor shots...Lol...

No way a Smoothbore m1911 is going to out shoot one with proper and intact Rifling, all else being equal.

For Shotshells, sure, a Smoothbore would be ideal...but, not for Hardball or Cast Bullets, and certainly not for any distance over 20 yards.

If it was an advantage wouldn't all the Bullseye and Camp Perry et al Shooters long since have gone over to Smoothbore?

[GoodOlBoy]

Oyeboten I'm not talking about competition, and I'm not talking about "advantage". I am talking about swinging metal pans on an open range. I could hit five out of seven at the 4" pan, the old guy with the smoothbore never missed a shot. Couldn't even venture a guess was the yardage was as we were standing in front of the single old shooting bench on the firing line. On silhouettes I wouldn't have wanted to be on the receiving end as every shot between us all would have done the job. Besides which I am talking about milspec guns fired from free standing, not a bunch of squeaky tight competition guns fired from ransom rests and who knows what all with enough stuff hanging off of them to sink a barge.

As for what the barrel started out life as? Couldn't tell you. The old man said his great uncle had brought the 1911 as it was back from world war 1 and had given it to him as a kid. He wasn't shooting shotshells out of it either, his ammo came out of old military wood crates with metal linings. Unfortunately back then I was shooting cheap cheap range ammo a LGS was selling that was some offball plastic clamshell packages with a poor rendition of a eagle on the label. Literally no brand name on the labels, and the headstamps of the rounds varied from case to case. Heck we were paying $3 per 50 for them and I would usually take a dozen or so rounds out of every case of ammo back that were duds and we would get a piddly little store credit out of them. The brass we were selling to a reloader in Conroe Texas who made much better ammo, (Art Collins of Collins Cartridge Company who passed away some years ago) but it was also "more expensive" and I always saved that ammo for actual use, not for punching paper and ringing pans. I later switched to using nothing but Collins ammo my shooting improved. Still couldn't beat the old guy. This was back when we could buy wolf ammo for $3.97 a box, and S&B for $4.97 a box. We thought anybody who paid black hills, and remington $12 a box was out of their mind... Times change...

Anyway I'm not talking about custom building a barrel, or anything that would be a NFA headache. I was just curious about hollowbase loads out of a smoothbore and if such a barrel could just be bought somewhere. And I'm not talking about winning a competition. Only competition I shoot these days is between me and random coyotes, coons, and possums. Long as the bullet goes the direction I point it and hits whatever I am aiming at I am good. It was more a curiosity idea. I appreciate the feedback.

God Bless, and One Love.

GoodOlBoy

[wv109323]

As a bullseye competitor(with lead boolit's) you will not wear out the rifling in a barrel. The external fit of the barrel to slide/frame will loosen before the rifling is worn. I have a wad gun built in 1980. The first barrel was a welded Colt barrel. I probably put 150K through that barrel before I replaced it with a Kart. Kart had 100k and had it re tightened. The gun shot 9 Nozler bullets in 15/16" at 50 yards after Kart was re tightened.
The smoothbore was probably a result of corrosive WW1 ammo and lack of cleaning. A bullet that is not rotating would be like throwing a football with no rotation. It can not be accurate over long distances. The barrel was probably spinning the bullet regardless of physical condition.
I also had another gun built as a spare. Apparently the gunsmith tested it with moly coated bullets. A year or so later I discovered the barrel was rusted and pitted. The barrel was pitted the entire length. I was sick that I had not cleaned the barrel when I received the pistol back from the smith. I took the gun to the range and sandbagged it at 25 yards. Five boolits made a hole about 1/2" CTC. I did have the barrel replaced but it was probably not necessary even for competition.

[reddog81]

If you want a smooth bore just shoot some corrosive ammo, don't clean the barrel, let it sit for a couple of years in a humid environment, repeat the process until the rifling is almost gone.

Some really aggressive fire lapping would probably get the same results but much quicker.

I recently picked a series 1 Colt 1903 that has almost no rifling until about the middle of the barrel. A .309 sized bullet will fall half way through, and a .312 sized bullet will make it a quarter of the way through with minimal effort. Otherwise the gun is in better than average condition for being 100 years old. Even with the terrible bore it can get some decent groups. I got 4 out of 6 shots in a 1 inch group at 10 yards my first time out with it.

[johnson1942]

i had a old high standard victor once that was very old and you could barely see the rifling. it shot as good as a new one as although you could barely see the rifling it spun the bullet.