Cap & Ball Pistol - Which Part Always Breaks & SHOULD have an Extra of ?

[DoctorBill]

I just bought a .44 cal Pietta 1851 Navy Cap & Ball Revolver. SN-584681

Looking around various Forums, I see that some spring (maybe other parts
also?) breaks and needs replacing. Short of attempting to make those parts
myself, I think maybe I ought to have some on hand.

Here is Pietta's exploded 1851 Navy Cap & Ball diagram (.36 and .44 cal)
from Taylors Firearms web site.
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/accessories/parts/pietta-parts/pietta-1851-navy-parts.html
https://s19.postimg.org/xspoagnab/Parts_Diagram.jpg

I ask that any of you reading this who have had to buy replacement parts,
tell me what I should order - and WHERE you got them from - please.
Use the part numbers as shown in the diagram to identify them....

I also have a .31 cal Cap & Ball Police concealable pocket variety (unknown
manufacturer SN-D1621) AND a .36 cal 1851 Navy Cap & Ball (unknown
manufacturer SN-12338) that are over 35 years old which I posted a thread
about on this forum.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?317116-44-Cal-Cap-amp-Ball-Pistol-%28Pietta%29-What-cast-bullet-do-I-use

Taylors Firearms also has parts for the .31 cal pocket police C&B.

DoctorBill

PS - Both the "unknown manufacturer" revolvers have this Butt Stamp.
https://s19.postimg.org/t83hvj3kz/Butt_Stamp.jpg
The Pietta does not carry that particular stamp on the Butt.....so
I assume the Stamp is NOT Pietta.

Can anyone identify the manufacturer from that ?

[William Yanda]

My Pietta, new out of the box would not reliably advance, because of a weak spring on part No. 17. Pietta sent me a new one.

[beemer]

I have had several C&B revolvers back in the 70's and wore one out. I replaced #26 (trigger spring) about three times and it was hard to find around here. I got fed up and fashioned one out of a diaper safety pin ,a lot of those pins around at that time, and never had any more trouble.

They are a lot of fun but I gave them up because they are so messy to clean properly, still like my longrifles though.

Dave

[jrmartin1964]

"PR ITALY" - is the mark used by Fabbrica d'Armi Esterina Riva for black powder replicas, imported by FIE (Firearms Import Export). Evidently, arms from this manufacturer, while safe and serviceable, are not of the best quality when it comes to finish and materials used.

For Colt-style revolvers, parts No.17, 22, and 26 are the ones most prone to give problems - in particular No.22 (Cylinder Bolt) is prone to one of the "legs" breaking at the through screw-hole, and No.26 (Trigger and Cylinder Bolt Spring) is prone to breaking.

[Oyeboten]

If a good well made Cap & Ball to begin with, nothing is going to break for a long long time of lots and lots of use.

If anything is going to break, it is maybe to be the Loading Lever Pivot Screw if that part is of a slender diameter and one stresses it a lot in hard ramming, or, the little two prong flattish Spring which regulates the Trigger return and Cylinder Bolt, and, those Springs are easy to find if one ever needs one.

Maybe the main Spring could break...pretty rare event, and, again, easy to find replacements, so...no worries...Or, one Leg of the Cylinder Bolt can sometimes break, being as it is a fairly hardened 'Spring' in it's own way.

[Jniedbalski]

About the only parts that wear out is #17 the hand spring and may be the hand.usally the hand spring comes with the hand. With a lot of use the spring will break right above the slot it fits in the hand. They usally are way to long and have to be hand fitted when you get a new one . Some times u can take a new spring and put in your old hand if u can get the old one out . It saves a lot of time fitting but a lot of times the broken flat spring will not come out. The older 70s' guns a lot where only marked made in Italy. Some parts will fit perfect and some not. One good place to call is Dixie gun works.

[DoctorBill]

Very nice !
I have put together what I have learned from the guys here and something off of YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LuuLgBC2LI
Many below are from the YouTube Video.

Here are some - probably others I don't have on this graphic (?)
https://s19.postimg.org/v3qa6osf7/Mfrs_marks.jpg

Proof Mark types found on firearms....
https://s19.postimg.org/v7op0onab/Proof_Mark_Types.jpg

Some "proof" marks...
https://s19.postimg.org/5yz9t9syr/Mfrs_Proof_Marks.jpg

Italian BP Firearms "Date Codes"....
https://s19.postimg.org/hclt4h3hf/Mnfr_Date_Codes.jpg

SO -

My .31 cal Police Pocket Pistol was made in 1978 by Fabbrica d'Armi Esterina Riva.

My .36 cal 1851 Navy was made in 1980 by Fabbrica d'Armi Esterina Riva.

My .44 cal 1851 Navy was made in 2010 by Pietta.

My .44 cal 1858 Remington Army was made in 1981 by "Only God Knows Who" ! (OGKW)
Cannot find any mfr's stamp anywhere. SN is 096320

https://s19.postimg.org/jjun64y5f/1860_Army_Cap_Ball.jpg

What good is a Serial Number if you can't find who made it !?

I just took the wood handles off and found "NUOVA" on the bottom !

https://s19.postimg.org/76hsz88gz/NUOVA_on_1860_Army.jpg

DoctorBill

[44man]

Springs and in the old west, all carried extra and if a hammer was fooled with an extra hammer and trigger. They also wanted a light trigger so they did it wrong and broke parts.

[Vann]

Part #26 is the first spring that always breaks on me. The last set of Pietta 51's I bought I replaced parts # 26 and 31 with Wolff springs for a Uberti Regulator.

[DoctorBill]

Just found this doing an e-bay search -
http://www.ebay.com/p/griswold-gunnison-blued-revolver-model-1861-pistol-by-denix-50001/1748624952?iid=252152037653&ul_noapp=true,true&chn=ps&lpid=82,82

DENIX Cap & Ball (from Spain).
http://www.denix.es/en/catalogue/40/

They ARE NOT firearms - just replicas to display !
There are a lot of them along with cannons, swords, halberds, knives and fun things....

I guess for Liberals and Soccer Moms.

DoctorBill

PS - I just ordered a "Trigger & Bolt Spring" #26 for each of my four Cap & Ball
revolvers from Taylors & Company as 'back ups'....
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/about-us

[Green Frog]

I shoot one of the Pietta copies of the Remington C&B 44 in North-South Skirmish events. The only part that has ever broken was the #17 shown in the parts diagram. OTOH, I LOST one of the nipples while cleaning the gun at the range. I always carry a complete set of replacement nipples in my parts box as that is the thing I'm most likely to need. YMMV.

Froggie

[DoctorBill]

Green Frog - Ya ! Ya gotta watch your nipples !

DoctorBill

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The great thing about the Colt is that it was made for an era when there were gold rushes and land rushes, and everybody had the chance to "go west, young man". So they didn't have the permanent pool of skilled but cheap hand labour found in Liège. The revolver was designed for a few very good mechanics to set up copying machines which would be operated by unskilled workers, and the interchangeable-parts system, long-established but seldom fully valid, really did work. Charles Dickens wrote a glowing article on Colt's London factory, where production was mostly carried out by recently recruited girls who had never worked metal before.

The result is that you can make the springs and some other small parts if you have to. Part 26, the trigger and bolt spring, can indeed give trouble, although I think it is more likely to break in originals but deform in Italian replicas. In the latter case you can anneal, shape and reharden it, then temper it by covering with oil, which you ignite with a torch and allow to burn away.

The hand spring and hand are also vulnerable. The slot where the hand is crimped can break or widen so that it will no longer grip a replacement. In this case, short of obtaining or making a new hand, the answer is to make one thicker than standard at its lower end, but the rest thinner.

[Multigunner]

The hand is always made softer than the steel of the cylinder, to avoid wear to the much more expensive to replace cylinder.

A worn or chipped hand can be carefully cold-hammered back into shape using a small ball peen or tack hammer. I've used a tack hammer and thick steel plate as an anvil.
The hammering will toughen the hand steel slightly but not much.
Just a forceful tapping is all that is required.

A quick tip
A light anvil substitute for such small jobs can be made by simply planting a single bladed axe or hatchet head deep in a stump. The flat back of the head is big enough and stable enough for such small jobs so long as no heavy hammering is necessary.

[DoctorBill]

Just received my springs in three days from
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/hand-guns/blackpowder-revolvers/1851-1861-navy-collection.html

http://s19.postimg.org/f8bjxmehv/Trigger_and_Cylinder_Stop_Springs.jpg

Now I just hope I can remember WHERE I stash them several years from now !

Maybe I should try to store them inside the pistol's handle !

DoctorBill

[Good Cheer]

Cabelas has the brass frame .44's on sale for 150 bucks.
That's for the short and long barrel versions.
So you can have a complete set of spare parts, a barrel of different length from what you have now...
oh, but wait, then you would have another revolver to buy spare parts for...

Uh, never mind. :neutral:

[Dan Cash]

Keep a spare hand complete with spring, trigger and bolt spring (#26 in your graphic) and a bolt. Those are the only things I have had to replace on any single action Colt pattern revolver. Italian springs are prone to break.

[DoctorBill]

I have a .44 cal and a .36 cal 1851 Navy plus an 1858 Remington Army .44
and a .31 cal Colt Police Pocket pistol (5 shot).

That's 23 shots before reloading !

How many pistols did Josey Wales carry ?
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Outlaw_Josey_Wales,_The

I see four in this picture.
https://s19.postimg.org/540tv1p7n/Josey_Wales.jpg

DoctorBill