45/70 with 405gr lead bullets

[Leaker11]

Newbie for starters only a few hound round s made. Just bought new 45/70 brass and 405gr lead cast bullets to load up for a rifle I'm picking up next week. Case is at 2.10" but if I seat front of the bullet cannilure to case I end up with 2.538"-2.535". I'm loading at minimum from Lyman book, IMR 36.5 gr. Should I try to hit the 2.55" and be below the cannelure and crimp there? Or am I way over thinking this? Thanks

[JWT]

What rifle are you loading for? What boolit are you using? Hollow base, hollow point, or solid? Gas check?

[LUBEDUDE]

The particular gun may make all of the difference.

I have to use different lengths (OAL) and sometimes different Bullet shapes depending upon which lever action or Rolling Block.

You may find that your rifle needs a "custom" round as well for feeding and or shooting performance.

I have also found that accuracy was greatly enhanced at beyond 200 yards for the 405 gr bullet in most of my rifles. 350/360 gr tended to be better for under 200 yards.

I'm not saying that these are musts, just my experience.

Keep on tweakin' :)

[Kevin Rohrer]

This topic belongs in the BP area.

Whatever bullet I use I just seat to the crimp line, making sure that the bullet base touches the wad, which touches the powder. Leave no open space between powder and bullet.

[Artful]

You may want to edit the original post to include which IMR powder your using (3031, 4064, ???) Which Rifle your using - Marlin, NEI, Encore, Winchester, Ruger #1, ???

In General you don't have to load to minimum book length but you can expect less accuracy with the longer the jump to the rifling leade.

[Leaker11]

Rifle is Marlin 1895G. Bullet is Missouri bullet company 405 gr, .459" dia. Powder is IMR 4198 @ 36.5 grains. Minimum in my Lyman's book.
I didn't use any kind of wad or filler. Didn't know about that issue. What should be used. I've only loaded (5) of these rounds so it's not a big fix to make. I'm new to this site so what threads should I be looking at for more info on reloading? Or am I in the proper location. Thanks in advance for your help.

[Artful]

See Kevin thinks you using holy black, without the info that needed to be added to the first post.

As you can see in your reloading book there are 3 level's of pressure people load the 45-70, one for trapdoors, one for new Lever guns, and one for strong single shots or bolt actions.

You don't need a wad or filler with your IMR-4198 load - on Marlin's the critical dimension comes from feeding from the tubular magazine, unto the case/shell lifter, and then being pushed around the bend into the chamber. Depending upon the book you look at you can see max lengths up to for the marlin lever from 2.550" to 2.570" - I just looked at 6 or 7. This is because lever guns can be sensitive to length for function and also bullet form/shape.

I just checked some of my loads and found between 2.090 and 2.095 which work fine in my Marlin. Once you get your rifle you can fiddle around and find the exact length with your bullet that your rifle will function with.

For what it's worth for cast I'm using a comparable fast powder (5744) and for stomper loads with jacketed IMR3031. I tend to use 350 to 450 cast as the heavier boolit just add recoil an no addition effect from my experience (unless your looking for penetration)

I will say the Ranch Dog 350 over 10-13 grains of Unique is a most pleasant plinking load, you can shoot up a 100 in an afternoon and have no issues the next day, unlike the 450 over IMR 3031 load.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I will say I use imr 4198 and shoot a noe 425gr rnfp, 3 days ago I shot 20 I had loaded up with 34.something grains, and I am still wearing a big yellow bruise. that was for 1500fps, and is really unnecessary, I am going back down to 32 for 1400fps. 36.5 sounds quite high for the minimum charge, I got mine from the lyman 4th edition, but springfield loads, because levergun loads only go to 405gr boolits, and nothing around here needs that power. I would shoot a moose with my 32gr load and know it would be effective, but I would limit myself to 75 yards or so, mainly because of my eyesight and using iron sights. if I knew I could hit it I would do 100 yards.

[Leaker11]

Thanks Artful & OK Rebel,
I never thought about looking in the other style of rifle loading info pages. I'm using Lyman #49 edition. I just went straight to the Marlin lever gun page. If I did use a wad material, what would it be made of? After the earlier post about wads being used I read some info that said it could increase accuracy by keeping all the powder butted next to the primer. I'll give the 350 gr bullets a look also. I'm sure I'll get bruised up along the way. Thanks again for the advice.

[Artful]

You can use many materials for over powder wadding - I use Dacron (the polyester fiber in many pillows) just use enough to keep the powder from moving - I used to use Tissue paper or the filler from inside the old flotation vests (kopok?) but Dacron is easiest to use for me.

You don't want to use enough to form a plug which could force air/pressure wave into the base of the bullet and maybe ring the chamber. So these days I don't tend to use wadding.

[big bore 99]

I shoot 45-70 with 405 gr. boolits. That sounds awful hot in IMR4198 to start out with. I'd stay away from any type of wadding material. I like the light Unique loads as stated earlier. Much easier on my old shoulders.

[NSB]

Don't use wads unless the loading manual calls for it. Everyone seems to be using them on powders that are not position sensitive. With most smokeless powders, nothing is gained by using them. I've played with wads on half a dozen different 45-70 rifles and many different powders. Rarely see any improvement in groups, and if not done properly you can ring your barrel. Start with a minimum load out of your gun and see how it shoots. The best thing you can do right off the bat is slug your barrel and use a bullet that's .001-.002" larger than the bore diameter. ANY 45-70 bullet will easily pass through a deer at about any angle even with the lightest loads. This caliber can punish on both ends and loading it up to the higher end doesn't kill any better on the deer, but the shooter will certainly notice the difference. I've pretty much settled on 405g bullets traveling around 1400-1500fps and that's all that's needed. I've shot a couple of deer with bullets going around 1300fps and haven't recovered one yet.....in and out every time.

[Leaker11]

Thanks again guys. I won't worrying about the wad issue then.
New issue of slugging the barrel. I've read it in Lyman's manual but didn't pick up on what lead to use. Obviously not a cast bullet. Would fishing weight work? How far into barrel? Just an inch or so? Thanks

[EDG]

You are under thinking this.
Without the actual rifle you will not know if your seating depth will work.
You can load a batch of ammo that you might have to pull down and reseat.

So is this rifle a falling block single shot, lever gun, break open single shot or something else?

Do you know what powder the Lyman load is for?

At this point all I know you might do is load the rounds and leave them long with no crimp.
When you get the rifle seat the bullets to fit. If it is a lever gun work out the crimp the last thing. I would recommend a Lee factory crimp die.

All your loaded round length numbers appear to be coming out of a manual. That is fine but the ammo still has to work in your specific rifle and there is no guarantee that the numbers in the manual will work. You need to make sure what you use works in your rifle.



Newbie for starters only a few hound round s made. Just bought new 45/70 brass and 405gr lead cast bullets to load up for a rifle I'm picking up next week. Case is at 2.10" but if I seat front of the bullet cannilure to case I end up with 2.538"-2.535". I'm loading at minimum from Lyman book, IMR 36.5 gr. Should I try to hit the 2.55" and be below the cannelure and crimp there? Or am I way over thinking this? Thanks

[4719dave]

179296
I use an egg sinker or a round ball soft lead is what you need . Lube up the sinker and the barrel I use a brass rod to drive in down the barrel I've had wood split .

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yup I like egg sinkers, EDG he said it was an marlin 1895, guide gun I believe. I get excited too, and start asking about all the things that I am wondering about. its just that some cant really be answered yet, but I know where he is coming from. I have been asking a lot about 44 mags. and super blackhawks, and I wont get one till spring or so! good luck to you, original poster.

[Leaker11]

EDG, 4719Dave & OK Rebel,
Thanks again for the input. Don't get rifle till tomorrow. I live in Ca. So it's a 10 day wait for everything. Was just hoping to get some rounds fired off tomorrow but I'm sure I can be patient enough to wait to work out slugging the barrel and checking what my maximum OAL could be set at.
EDG I did buy the Lee FCD, I used it on other calibers and liked it so automatically picked it up for 45/70 also. Plus I'm lazy on trying to set the seat and crimp die correctly I don't mind an extra step. I'll try to add a picture of a crimped round and maybe you could tell me if it's too heavy or not. Like I said I only have five rounds made up so far.
Thanks again you all have been great.

[Leaker11]

179342I don't know if this is clear enough to judge

[Leaker11]

179343Maybe a little clearer

[Leaker11]

Nice rifle 4719 Dave! Does it that wear a aftermarket lever? I haven't seen any with that detailing before.

[EDG]

For a tube magazine rifle I like to form the case mouth in so that it touches the cannelure just behind the forward edge. This puts the case mouth at the shoulder formed by the cannelure so it prevents the bullet from being driven into the case.
Your crimp is about max to me. I try to use a little less so the case mouths do not get smashed and worn.
I do that for several calibers but not for the 45-70 because my 45-70s are all single shots.
Believe it or not the .45-70 was originally designed as a single shot round and they are loaded a little different than lever gun rounds.
For shooting cast bullets make sure they are about .002 larger than the groove dia. They don't have to be very hard. Shoot at about 1200 to 1300 FPS and you will love your rifle.
Shoot at 1800 plus and you will not enjoy shooting it.


[QU


OTE=Leaker11;3819869]179343Maybe a little clearer[/QUOTE]

[buckshotshoey]

Your COA should be just fine. My only question is.....What bullet did say you were using? The pic you posted looks like a copper jacketed bullet. Pretty yellowish on my computer screen to be cast lead.

Your crimp looks a little on the heavy side. Use a magnifying glass to inspect the crimp. Only crimp as much as necessary to get it inside the bullet crimping groove or you will work harden the case mouth and shorten case life. Or, at the very least, you will have to anneal your cases more often.

And, it is a little hard to tell, but it looks like you could have seated the bullet slightly deeper. I see quite a bit of gap between the case mouth and the top of the crimping groove. Try to seat the boolit so the case mouth is dead center, or slightly deeper, in the crimping groove. And do your seat and crimp operations in two separate steps. Install seating die in press until i just touches the mouth of the case (no bullet ), and tighten. Seat all boolits to proper length. Then back out the seater plug so it doesn't touch bullet, and reset the die for a proper crimp. I think you will find this a little slower, but produces better, more consistent crimp.

[Leaker11]

Thanks guys,
EDG, I will back off on the crimp some to extend brass life. I will look into a load for that FPS range.I think the Lyman info I loaded off of said it was 1500 FPS but that's just from memory.
I only loaded (5) rounds so far so I can make some also in the 12-1300 range also.
Buckshot, I was looking for 2.55" OAL but I'm shorter than that now. I didn't know how short to go but I could seat it in a little farther. The bullet is one that I purchased from gaff & son, lead coated style from Missouri bullet company.
Thanks again

[Leaker11]

Thanks guys. Just got done at the range and I'm glad I dropped down from the 36.5. I only fired 25 rounds starting at 36.5 and dropping off a grain every five rounds. I liked the 31.5 slot better. Rifle functioned great the shooter needs a lot of work. Thanks again for the input.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

buckshot, it kinda looks like Powder Coat to my, just a strange copper color. but im not that sure. leaker is that a powder coated boolit ? if its brass, a different load might be called for. Travis

[Leaker11]

It's coated but not sure. May be just powder coated. It's definitely not jacketed or plated