Zoli Zouave

[Mark Daiute]

I am a musket shooter. At the moment I am without a muzzleoading rifle. I had an 1861, I still have mini ball on hand.

What are your opinions on the Zoli Zouave? Are they a good solid rifle?

Thanks in advance.

[johnson1942]

what is the cal. and the twist rate? if they are with in the science to make them shoot accurate then you also have the wants for a gun of this type and you should get it.

[Jeff Michel]

I have a Zoli Zouave. They are well made, sturdy. The finish on mine is pretty good. I never checked the twist. At one hundred yards, .575 Minnie bullet/crisco lube and 60 grains of FFG. I can keep them in about 4 inches. I'm certainly no expert, but I think for what it is it's not a bad piece.

[johnson1942]

there you go, sounds like a fun gun.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Zoli Zooies were produced by the tens of thousands in the 60's&70's for skirmish and re-enactment. They're good sturdy guns for the most part with a 1:72 twist as were originals. With a good load and possibly some minor barrel bedding and trigger work they shoot a Minie as well as most any similar production rifle of it's type. Sometimes the mainsprings weren't the best, but it's a cheap and easy fix if it wears out.

They're often found as bargains as re-enactors no longer use them as they were never issued to troops during the war between the states. Originally the Northern government contracted with Remington for rifles of the 1855 pattern, what Remington delivered was a hybrid U.S. 1841/1855 rifle that the government refused to pay full price for and put in storage, or at the most issued some to troops guarding Washington. By the time the contract was delivered, Springfield Armory and contractors of 1861 riflemuskets had caught up with demand. Remington, having the tooling for the 1841 from previous contracts simply updated the 1841 pattern with newer style barrel bands, patchbox, sights, bored and rifled to .58 specs, and other small modifications. On the centennial of the war, original Zouave rifles were cheap, plentiful, and in "new" condition...re-enactors gobbled them up and Zoli copied them in numbers for the next two decades. Originals probably never saw combat, most troops didn't like the shorter rifles anyway. Nothing to do with the rifle really, they hated the heavy saber bayonet bouncing against the calf of their legs on the march, ( some 1841 rifles, all 1855 rifles, and many European rifles were issue with the long heavy saber bayonet).

[Mark Daiute]

thank you all.

Mark

[30calflash]

Zoli made some very good CW copies in the day. I've a Zouave, got it used with lots of miles on it, and it shot pretty well while I used it for skirmishing. It was a back up to a 3 band Enfield, shot well enough to not worry about special seperate loads. 50 and 100 yards FWIW.

I was told they made a copy of the Murray Carbine also. Not sure what else Zoli had, too long ago.

[bedbugbilly]

They have a good reputation and are excellent shooters. My first "Zouave" I purchased in the early '60s. It has had thousands and thousands of rounds through it. It is not marked so I really don't know who made it. The barrel is to the point that I need to get it off to Whitacre for a re-line. At any rate, I purchased q Navy Arms Zoli last just for the barrel. It was an easy swap with the barrel of my first Zouave and I knew from shooting some Zoli brands that friends had that they sere good shooters. The bore to mine ball fit - the minies "as dropped" from my old Lyman 575-213 mold - are perfect fit. As someone stated - crisco in the base over 60 grins of 2F should give you good groups.

Best of luck to you!

[Hellgate]

Zoli also built a sporterized version of the Zouave called the "Buffalo Hunter" in a shorter (24"?) barrel, wooden ramrod, maybe different hunting style sights. It was featured in an article by Val Forget when used on an African Safari. They put some very heavy loads through it as well as through their custom heavy barreled Hawken.

[BPShooter]

The Zoli is a great gun.I just tell everyone to check the lock for wear, spare parts really don't exist anymore and the cost of a lock rebuild is 125.00 or more.

[carbine]

Check out N-SSA.org they shoot a lot of Zoli Zouaves and have a lot of info

[quail4jake]

Zoli Zouave! hey Luigi, avete un moschetto? These mediocre guns go well with red wine, vermicelli, tomato gravy and a shot of Amaretto. BTW...do you know why the Italians lost the war? Because when Mussolini ordered shells they sent rigatoni! OK, I'll leave the Italian people out of this.
Right! well, so, anyway, yes. I own a ZZ and I can't believe how much I enjoy shooting this mass manufactured guess at authenticity! Mine is a 1971 that I bought for $125 when I was drunk. I thought this thing will never shoot...well I need to rethink that! I load cal. .58 cartridges exactly as per the 1861 manual. No Crisco in the base, no NSSA tricks, no nothing, just good ol' paper cachuches. So... I tore the cachuch and poured some of the powder down the hatch, then the ball, ram home, cap and voila! Si calpisce il bersaglio!
I will forward photos of my ZZ when upgrade and improvement is done, I think you'll be impressed. BTW...one of the reasons that you'll find a lot of these in nice shape is that they're unacceptable in the world of Civil War reenacting. 3 band musket required (due to firing in ranks) so the 33" barrel 2 band is not allowed. Reenactors are hard on repros. (I am one) so anything that didn't corrode at the 135th Gettysburg and was thrown in the mud at Chancellorsville 150th is likely to survive better. Mine has a polyurethane finish on the Home Depot white pine stock (it's really birch) which is resilient to every solvent known to the state of California to cause birth defects in Rhodesian Sprague dalsey mice. Strangely it shoots good and the Italian made repros have come along way since the ZZ era and now are well made spaghetti slingers! Stay tuned my Mediterranean admirers... posting photos of the class of '71 ZZ soon! Cordiali saluti!

[Hellgate]

One way to tell if it has been fired a lot is the degree of scorching of the wood right behind the nipple. That is where the wood gets burned if you do not use a flash guard. I would not buy one that is charred in that area. A little is OK but a lot shows either many loads or some real heavy charges that created a lot of blowback through the nipple and back onto the wood from the cup shaped hammer face.

[KCSO]

Don't downgrade them with a round ball either. I have an old Navy Arms Buffalo hunter with the same musket barrel and it will put three shots touching at 50 yards and will shoot into 4 inches easy at 100.

[shdwlkr]

shot one at a North South skirmish a very long time ago. It hit everything I aimed it at and I had a blast at the event. I got to see a real cannon from the great war, saw several of them go off almost together. It must have been really scary when the real war was going on and the two armies met on the battle field.

[SamTexas49]

My 1st Zoli was purchased back in 1971 (I think from Shotgun news) was the 3 groove standard model. A few years later I was traveling and stopped in at Dixie Gunworks and they had (then) a barrel replacement (I think made by Numrich) that was a 7 groove barrel with all same dimensions except for bayonet lug and rear sight. Had local Gun Smith put a nice williams open sight on it and had also purchased that front slide on sight with the cross hairs in a globe. All that plus that 350gr SWC minie lyman made a mold for it now was a serious sniper rifle ! Sadly (as I imagine some of us have done) I sold it. The replacement barrel no longer exists and I regret selling it way back then.

[carbine]

Mark
we have skirmishers in Maine if you need help
tammany42@aol.com

[carbine]

Mark
we have skirmishers in Maine if you need help with Zouave
tammany42@aol.com

[quail4jake]

Out of curiosity... is the ZZ particularly liked in the NSSA world? The flavor I get from the posts here is that it may be better than I think. As I previously posted, I've thought of them as cheap, poorly made but mine nearly matched the 100yd group of my Whitacre barreled 1861 Springfield. Interested to hear opinions...

[Ithaca Gunner]

They are much liked in the N-SSA where speed of loading can determine a team event. There were a lot of Zoli Zooies back in the 70's and they are still popular today as they are accurate, relatively inexpensive, and their 33" barrel made them quicker to load than a 39, or 40" barreled riflemusket.

Many skirmishers now opt for a short Enfield rifle, custom made 1855 rifle, 1841, or Fayetteville now because of the historical correctness of the arm, but still a lot of new skirmishers and those who've used the Zooie for years continue to do so over a more expensive Enfield two bander or even more expensive hand built 1855 or Fayetteville.

We always said, "The first shot's free." Meaning your rifle was already loaded when the horn went off, just make it count. After that, you had to load as fast as possible and shoot just as accurately. The shorter barrel allowed a faster reload. How much did that matter? Imagine being on the line in a team event, you and your seven team mates face 32 clay birds on a cardboard backer, (50yds off-hand). You have five minutes to clean those evil clay birds off the board, but to get in the medals, you need to do it in under 120 seconds, (I've seen it done in under 90 seconds). Every shot has to count, every reload must be smooth and quick. The Zoli Zooie was a very affordable rifle capable of doing this, hence it's popularity with skirmishers. A little dab of accraglass in the breech area and some slicking up of the lock was all that was needed, sometimes mill a slot through the front sight base and solder a taller blade in if need be...

[carbine]

Zoli barrels were excellent the locks required some tlc

[Ithaca Gunner]

The lock parts are a bit soft.

[quail4jake]

Well...as promised. The de farbed, refinished and browned 1971 ZZ...181371181372181373181374181375181376 The big mechanical items are the stock/barrel/band interface shimming and mine took .035" 1st band and .015" 2nd band brass shims. If it groups well, done, but it may need accra glass bedding and I'm looking for advice from musketsmiths out there so please chime in. The lock took bearing surface polishing and a new tumbler, reduce the mainspring to 8 lb lift at the cone, fit the hammer to the tumbler square with wedge shims and reducing trigger creep with a brass shim attached with JB weld to the tumbler under the full cock notch and filed to fit. The final "piece de resistance" is the hollow end of the rammer filled with solder and cut and lapped to the shape of an expanding ball nose. Crazy thought...mount a 4" picatinny rail behind the 1st band for a hologram sight or laser. Now it goes on paper at 100 yds. with M1855 58/100 in. paper cartridges...stay tuned!

[SamTexas49]

My 1st Zoli was purchased back in 1971 (I think from Shotgun news) was the 3 groove standard model. A few years later I was traveling and stopped in at Dixie Gunworks and they had (then) a barrel replacement (I think made by Numrich) that was a 7 groove barrel with all same dimensions except for bayonet lug and rear sight. Had local Gun Smith put a nice williams open sight on it and had also purchased that front slide on sight with the cross hairs in a globe. All that plus that 350gr SWC minie lyman made a mold for it now was a serious sniper rifle ! Sadly (as I imagine some of us have done) I sold it. The replacement barrel no longer exists and I regret selling it way back then.

So I finally answered my own question about this barrel. here is the copy of page from the 1972 Dixie Catolog, 1972 that shows the drop in barrel for the Zoli. The pic shows sights on the barrel (it came with out sights) BUT dang that barrel shot so much better then the original (but Im betting the NSSA would disallow ?) Sadly it is no longer available. The barrel on the .58cal H&R Stalker is as close as it got but it would fit better in springfield stock/lock plus it is to short now.

I talked to the guy (friend) I had sold it to and he had also sold it later. Dang ! When I had it and shot in competition at the Alamo ML Club in SATX they were first wondering what I was shooting because of the perfect holes the 350gr semi-wadcuts were making at 50 yard X stick event. The rules werent that stringent on sights (williams rear and the slip-on globe sight from Dixie GW (still available), just had to be a musket type rifle and shoot minies !
(dont ask me why its upside down, it is correct in my files 1)
188388

[Ithaca Gunner]

I love those old DGW catalogs! Loads of helpful hints in the back of them...and a few that could get one jail time these days. At a local gun show some years ago a fellow had a stack of them from the 60's. My brother was looking at something on his table and I casually browsed the old catalogs, the guy ask if I wanted them. I ask how much, he said, "Just take em, I don't feel like loading em back in the car." What joy! And what memories!

[bob208]

the zoli were the best off the rack guns. some needed a little tuning like most guns. we found glass bedding the tang and about an inch or two forward of the tang and eased up the wood under the barrel bands made them shoot.

the debate of them being issued or not. well if you read walter clines book you will see some were captured form the confederates when one of the cites fell. so did they buy them for Remington? you must remember they were rifles not front line muskets.

[RogerDat]

I have heard a couple of the locks have been recovered in historic battle fields, indicating they saw at least limited action. I have no idea where the link to that information is, but I do recall it. I have also heard that due to at most very limited us during the war, and short length making them unpopular with the guy in front of you when firing in ranks not what you want for enactor groups.

I have one but lack enough experience to confirm this second bit. They have a reputation for shooting patched round ball very well. Some reports have them doing PRB better than Minnie. I hope to get out this spring with about a pound of FFG and establish the facts on this for myself.

However is nice companion piece for a Remington 1863 C&B :-)

[SamTexas49]

Just as a tease, check out these pics from the TC lindsey Country store in Jonesville Tx !188559188561

[Hellgate]

Some Zouaves with soft parts may be those from other manufacturers. I think Sears sold their version and some may have been made in Japan or other countries with different specs. I think a variety of makers were putting them out.

[Buckshot]

................Lyman also imported a Zouave (have an article from "Rifle" magazine (1971). didn't mention who actually made it. Al Miller was the reviewer. Ist rifle was a *** so Lyman sent a 2nd one and according to Miller it was a real peach. In the article he was using loads up to 135 grs of 2Fg!

Speaking of Lyman, a friend of mine showed up one day at the range with 3 band Enfield repo imported by Lyman. No maker markings visible. It was a very fine looking piece and was a VERY exceptional shooter. I remember one day Bob and I sat on either side of the bench and took turns loading, shooting handing it back and forth across the bench. We were shooting at a 2' long piece of grader blade (maybe 8" wide) at 200 meters. We hit it very regularly.

What surprised me so much about it was it's easy attitude :-) Bob just had some Crisco for lube and the good ol Lyman 575213 Minie'. We'd dump in 70 grs of GOEX 2Fg, push the cavity through the Crisco and ram it home, cap it and then sit down and fire. Then hand it across the bench for the next shot. That barrel got quite warm, but the accuracy remained and we never had to stop and clean out excessive fouling because it never did exhibit any. We shot it until we ran out of Minie's and he'd had a 1lb coffee can full to start with :-) Sometime later I asked Bob about that Enfield as I had a mind to buy it. Bob said he'd sold it, which startled me. I asked him why, (he had 2 reasons') and he said because it was too accurate and wasn't a challenge, and also because the Marines were never issued Enfields. Yes he was a wacky Marine! He had sold it to a mutual friend for $500, which I thought was a fairly steep price for the time.

...............Buckshot

[SamTexas49]

How many good firearms have we sold in years past we wish now we still had !!

[Ithaca Gunner]

The one I refer to with soft lock parts was a DGW Zoli from around 1973-5. The main spring wore out after maybe 500 shots, didn't have the power to snap a cap after that. Replacement was simple and cheap though, the rifle new was less than $100 new, on sale from Dixie.

Now, the Remington rifle, 1862-1863, (Zouave) was intended by the government to be of the same pattern as the U.S. Rifle M-1855 as made at Harper's Ferry. Remington, in an effort to get rifles out the door at a profit simply used the older machinery from an earlier contract to make U.S. M-1841 rifles. The locks are nearly identical, the barrels, aside from caliber, bayonet lug, and sights are identical. The stocks were close enough to rough out on the old machinery and final finish according to the M-1855 patch box, trigger guard, barrel bands, nose cap, and but plate. This let Remington produce a rifle that was , "in spec" without the cost of retooling. Thing was, the government inspectors were not amused at Remington's ability to adjust to the situation and refused to pay full price for the guns. They were reportedly bought at a discount, stored away and not issued.

"Zouave" is a modern term for these rifles. I also have read stories of rusted relic condition Zouaves found on or near battle sites, (one states locks only found). Locks, triggers, barrels and rammers being the same as the Remington conversion of the 1841 rifle, and no photos or other providence provided, I can only assume what was found were nothing more than Remington conversions of the 1841 rifles that WERE issued to troops during the war, (the stocks having rotted away and the brass fittings misidentified, or ignored). Could any have been sold and shipped South? Maybe, Remington was in business to make a profit and may have been angry with the federal government for offering a discount price for different arms than they expected to receive and possibly sold some South, ( a risky venture at best that probably never happened). If any 1862-1863 Remington "Zouave's" found their way into combat, it was most likely guns sold to Volunteer units as a state purchase, no records exist indicating any state purchase of these arms, but who knows.

Rifles were popular with skirmishers, wing companies, and engineers...not so much with line infantry. The shorter length being a factor, the typical sword bayonet of the rifle being another. The bayonets being longer, heavier, and had a tendency to "slap" the calf on the march causing irritation after only a few miles and were "lost".

As for the U.S. M-1855 rifles, the South captured Harper's Ferry in 1861, and the M-1855's stored there as well as the machinery to make them. The machines to make riflemuskets of the 1855 pattern was shipped to Richmond where riflemuskets bearing, CSA RICHMOND, (and date) on the lock plate were made and issued. Machinery to make the rifles of the 1855 pattern was shipped to Fayetteville NC where it's believed almost 10,000 were made during the course of the war bearing CSA FAYETTEVILLE, (and date) on the lock plate. Fayetteville produced what Remington was contracted to produce, no other source of 1855 pattern rifles were produced after 1861. Neither Richmond or Fayetteville produced arms with functioning Maynard tape priming locks, the early locks were made with a hump but no effort was made to mill them for the tape priming mechanism.

Could Remington have been prosecuted or sued for trying to pass on to the government an inferior product, or something the government didn't contract for? It would have been difficult to prove. They DID produce a high quality rifle of .58 capable of accepting the 1855 sword bayonet and of the proper length and weight, aside from using the earlier 1841 pattern type barrel and lock, it would serve the purpose as well though not interchange. Probably why the government chose to discount the price and store them.

US M-1841 made by Harper's Ferry, altered by Remington.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn179/krag1894/hf1841_zpssnurhxv2.jpg

Remington M-1862-1863 "Zouave" rifle.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn179/krag1894/hf1842_zpsv9myq0vs.jpg

US M-1855 riflemusket, (couldn't find a good 1855 Harper's Ferry rifle which was made only at Harper's Ferry so a Springfield riflemusket will do for the lock area detail).
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn179/krag1894/hf1856_zpsigl7wwph.jpg

Early Confederate Fayetteville rifle. Much closer to the US M-1855 that what Remington produced.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn179/krag1894/hf1854_zpsi3zc6wkd.jpg

[fgd135]

"Zouave" is a modern term for these rifles.



Not exactly a "modern" name for these rifles, but definitely a post CW name. Francis Bannerman bought many of the originals as surplus from the US Government in the years after the war, and it was he who invented the "Zouave" moniker, as he was at least as good at advertising as he was at buying guns at dirt prices and re-selling for huge profits. Check out any Bannerman's catalog, even one of the widely available reprints, and you can see "Zouaves" for sale.
I have no idea of whether these late model rifles were actually used in the CW, but every book on CW small arms that I have ever read pretty well insists that these were never issued and were sold off after the conflict.

[Hellgate]

I was surprised to see the limited space around the nipple holder (bolster?) on the original Zouave. I have seen a lot of scorching of the wood right behind the nipple from back flash out the nipple and onto the hammer face in used guns that were shot a lot and just figured it was an expediency of the Italian manufacturers to shorten the distance behind the bolster.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I was surprised to see the limited space around the nipple holder (bolster?) on the original Zouave. I have seen a lot of scorching of the wood right behind the nipple from back flash out the nipple and onto the hammer face in used guns that were shot a lot and just figured it was an expediency of the Italian manufacturers to shorten the distance behind the bolster.

I've never owned an original Zooie, but have had a few M-1841 Mississippi's and M-1842 muskets and the wood burn out behind the nipple is a problem. Probably why they went to the different style bolster in 1855.

[bob208]

I even had some burn marks on my lyman gpr. the way around it is to coat that area with wax like mothers car was. I even use pledge with oil.

[Hellgate]

I merely took an oval 3/4"X1.25" piece of aluminum, copper or steel sheet metal and with a fine chisel & file put a square hole in it to slip it over the nipple as a flash guard. My Zouave & Buffalo Hunter are looking good as new. Make a couple of them and keep them in the patch box in case you lose one.