S&W Model 1917

[Battis]

I saw a Smith & Wesson .45 DA revolver last weekend, serial number 85xxx. The barrel was marked 1901 1906 1909. There was a flaming bomb mark, but no other marks (the finish is rough).
I'm going back to look at it this weekend (3 hrs).
Here's the issue: I have a C&R license. The revolver is out of state. The C&R lists a "Smith and Wesson Model 1917 45 ACP, produced for Brazil." Since the finish is pretty worn, without many markings left, is there a way to determine if this was a Brazilian contract gun?
Why would only the Brazilian guns be on the list, and not the military version?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I have a couple of these. The revolver should be marked US Army on the butt where the lanyard ring is located, and the serial number, one on either side of the ring. If that marking is missing it is not US Military issue. On the other hand, a flaming bomb is a US Ordnance marking, and should not appear on a Brazilian revolver. Since all of the 1917 ordered by Brazil were for their military (mostly navy) they would all be military, one and the same, if that is what you mean, and would therefore all be eligible for purchase. Or, if you're indicating that the US version is not on the list I think you'll need to re-examine the list.

[reddog81]

The way I understand it any gun 50 years or older qualifies as C&R so regardless if it was produced for Brazil or not it should qualify. If it has the flaming bomb it should also have United States Property stamped somewhere I would think.

[Battis]

There is no lanyard ring - it looks like it might have been cut off.
I called the ATF and the agent told me that there's probably a difference between those made for Brazil, and those not. He was helpful but admitted he did not know why.
The C&R list contains a "Smith and Wesson .45 hand ejector model of 1950 Military .45 caliber, having s/ns between S76000 and S263000."
I did not see an S before the serial number, but I will look very closely this time. If it has an S, it's eligible.
If it doesn't have an S, then it was made in 1918 (from what I've found online).
I'm being cautious 'cause I live in MA. The State Police - Public Safety people told me that even if it's on the C&R list, it cannot come into MA. The ATF and Gun Owners Action League (GOAL - I'm a member) said it can come into MA on a C&R license.
The asking price is $350.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Why would Mass. not allow 1917's? Assault revolver because it takes clips?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I don't blame you for being cautious. First, as for a U.S. Military version, the US Army/ (lanyard ring)/ serial number is stamped into the bottom of the butt very deeply. It would be a major grinding or filing job to remove the markings. I have encountered many of both the S&W and Colt versions that have had the lanyard cut off, and they are usually easily restorable by removing the screw's shaft by drilling and using a small easy-out and obtaining a replacement from Gun Parts Corp. On the Brazilian version, the National Seal of Brazil is present on the right side of the revolver. If there are no markings on the butt, and the Brazilian seal is missing, then it is likely neither US issue or Brazilian issue, or it has been defaced to the point where it holds no value whatsoever as a collector piece. However, if you're just looking for a shooter and it's in great mechanical condition with a nice bore, then I wouldn't pass it up for that purpose. There is another possibility that it is a commercial model made for US civilian sales in the 1920s (I have one--see photo) and that would bear none of the markings discussed. The only thing in your posts that doesn't add up is the flaming bomb marking, normally present on firearms accepted for US Military service. I have read that the Brazilian revolvers were supplied in two groups by S&W, the first using frames on hand left over from their WW I contract. Is it possible that these might have already had the flaming bomb marking? I don't know. But, if on re-inspecting this revolver you can't reconcile any of these facts and questions I'd proceed with great caution in the purchase. It could also be a parts gun someone assembled.
179188
click to enlarge.

DG

[Thumbcocker]

Brazilian's have the National crest on the right side of the gun. Very prominent.

[Outpost75]

The S&W .45 Hand Ejector Model of 1950 Military of postwar production has different internal parts, having the postwar "short" action and modern style hammer block. These guns have the "S" prefix ahead of the serial number.

179191

[Harter66]

If yours is a 1918 proper it should have all of the property marks . If memory serves August was Smith and Wesson production and September was Government production and the guns were very different in terms of finish . The 1 I had was from August 1918 without the thumb groove stocks . It was a very good example of S&W hand fit polish perfection ,it may have been reworked and I would not question that for a moment . If it is a Brazilian contract it is unlikely that it would have a 1918 S/N unless it happens to have been by some very literal 1 in a million bottom of the bin, buy back ,oldstock part . That contract as I understand it was filled from concurrent commercial shelf parts then specific parts in 1937-8-9(?).

Of course I read all of that on line so it may be 100% wrong magnified by bad memory.

[Battis]

I called the seller and he still has it, so I'll head up tomorrow. The problem in MA is that even though it's C&R, I'll still have to register it just like a modern handgun. If the gun was already in MA, I could just buy it without the C&R. So, I don't want to try and register the gun and have them tell me, "Nope, it's not on the C&R list." This state is nuts.
Thanks for all the info - now I know what to look for.

I was in Montana last August and found a Nagant 7.62 revolver at a good price. I called two FFL dealers in MA and they both said that gun cannot come into MA. If I found one in MA I could buy it. With the C&R license I can now have it shipped right to my house.

[Oyeboten]

I called the seller and he still has it, so I'll head up tomorrow. The problem in MA is that even though it's C&R, I'll still have to register it just like a modern handgun. If the gun was already in MA, I could just buy it without the C&R. So, I don't want to try and register the gun and have them tell me, "Nope, it's not on the C&R list." This state is nuts.
Thanks for all the info - now I know what to look for.

I was in Montana last August and found a Nagant 7.62 revolver at a good price. I called two FFL dealers in MA and they both said that gun cannot come into MA. If I found one in MA I could buy it. With the C&R license I can now have it shipped right to my house.

Revolver wise, if it is fifty years old or older, it is "C & R" regardless of whether it specifically appears on any B of A T F and E list.


Brazil Contract were not m1917s.

They were simply S & W's Commercial line, chambering the .45 ACP Cartridge.

Brazil Contract Revolvers are basically identical to an m1917, but were a Commercial offering and were not made for the US Gov't.


Same confusion many people have between the "m1911" and the "Government Model" .45 Automatics.

M1911 was only for the Military, Civillians could not buy them new.

Government Model was the Commercial version of the m1911 and anyone could buy one.

So, Brazil Contract Revolvers are simply a Commercial Model, 2nd Model Hand Ejector, chambered in .45 ACP, which came with the Brazillian 'Crest' Stamped on their side plate.

If someone replaced the Side Plate, they could do so with one that has no Brazillian Crest on it.



Serial Number is all wrong for Brazil Contract anyway.

Also wrong for early Commercial Model.

So, that leaves it to likely be a however much 'defarbed' m1917, where someone ground off the "U S Propety" Text on the underside of the Barrel, and also the "US ARMY" and Model Number and Army Inventory Number, from the Butt.

Now, since with these, their Serial Number is the same Number as the Army Inventory Number, and would have been on the Butt, if it is missing from the Butt, it is technically a Gun which has had the Serial Number removed, and might pose a problem as a legal technicality, if any push came to shove.

That is the only Serial Number the 'Frame/Receiver' had, so, when it is gone, it poses a potential problem legally.

Serial Number would also be on the face of the Cylinder, on the little flat of the underside of the Barrel close to the Frame, and also, on the back side of the Ejector Star, and also on the inside of the Side Plate.

However, none of these numbers are on the Frame, so...if they all match, they are very likely showing what the Serial Number was or had been or "is", but one would need to petition or have one's Gunsmith petition the B of A T F and now also E, for a new Number to be assigned, or for permission for the Gunsmith to stamp the original Number on the Butt, so the Revolver can be 'legal' again.

Post some good clear images of it, of the Butt, and both sides, if you can.

[Battis]

Good info. Thanks. Not knowing much about the revolver last week, I probably missed some markings.

[2152hq]

The specific gun does not have to be listed on the C&R BATF list. It only has to meet the criteria to be a C&R.
...From BATF C&R List Update 1/09 thru 6/10
https://www.atf.gov/file/84376/download

"Curios or Relics List —Update January 2009 through June 2010
Firearms automatically attain curio or relic (C&R) status when they are 50 years old.
Anyfirearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&Rfirearm.
It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list.
However, ifyour C&R item is regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) and you desire removalfrom the provisions of the NFA, you must submit the firearm to the Firearms Technology Branchfor evaluation and a formal classification."

[Tackleberry41]

A 7.62 Nagant revolver is an 'assault weapon' there? One of the slowest loading revolvers you can imagine, and hardly a hand cannon.

Some of the rules seem a big dumb, a military 1917 is ok, but a civilian one built exactly the same isnt?

[Harter66]

I'm sure it's off limits because it can be suppressed...... :roll:

[Oyeboten]

Good info. Thanks. Not knowing much about the revolver last week, I probably missed some markings.

Many m1917s ended up having the "US PROPERTY" ( underside of the Barrel, toward the front ) stamping ground off, along with the Stamping on the Butt.

Since the Butt held the Stampings for the Army Inventory Number ( on the S & Ws, but not on the Colts! ), which was the actual S & W Serial Number also, there is a problem then, technically, with having/possessing a Gun who's serial Number has been altered or defaced or removed.

On old Guns like these though, it seems like the B of A T F and now also E, is very obliging and glad to help one find a solution, and the solution is usually where one's 'Licensed' Gunsmith gets permission from them to put the Serial Number ( like when all other locaitons on the S & W match and one can then deduce with pretty much certainty, what the Serial Number for the Frame had been, ) back on to the Butt, or is given a new Serial Number by the B of A T F and now also E, to put a new number in the Butt, and one then has the papers and the paper trail for the Gun to be legal and for one to be able to prove it is legal should any questions arise.

Since all of this is of course some time and trouble and expense and leg work and schmoosing, and since untill it is done, one is in technical violation by even having the Gun in one's posession at all, it is not really worth the trouble unless the Gun is somehow really special in some way.

So, the rule of Thumb is, just to steer clear of any old Guns which have had the serial Number removed or re stamped by who knows who, or which have been messed with, and to hold out for a nice good condition one, which has not been messed with, instead.

[Ole Joe Clarke]

Go to the Smith & Wesson forum and ask these questions. Those guys eat, dream, and talk S&W's. Some are really good with the older models.

[Battis]

So, the rule of Thumb is, just to steer clear of any old Guns which have had the serial Number removed or re stamped by who knows who, or which have been messed with
Very good advice. It helped me...well, kinda.
I bought the S&W M1917 .45. The serial numbers match on the barrel, cylinder and inside the grips. There are several Eagle Head inspector's marks (S1,S2, etc). There are matching assembly numbers on the yoke and inside the side plate. I have not checked any internal parts yet. It has the flaming bomb but no Brazilian marks.
Here's the problem and it is a biggie - when someone removed the lanyard loop they also removed the serial number on the butt. I knew it but still bought it.
I called the BATF on Monday. They said the fact that I reported it covers me against a possible felony charge. Then I got transferred around to find someone who could make the gun "right." Today (Thursday) I spoke with an agent who positively agrees that the gun should not be destroyed. He gave me the contact info for the West Virginia tech office - I have to write a letter to them explaining the situation.
I gotta say, every BATF agent that I spoke with was very helpful (they even called me back).
Like I said, I knew going into it that there'd be some work to be done. And even if I had to turn the gun in, they'd only require the frame - everything else is legal.
The revolver has no collector's value but it's in good shape. There's holster rust on the barrel and cylinder. The bore is really good, everything locks up tightly. Was it worth the work? Yeah.

[Earlwb]

If I remember correctly, the FBI and some of the police crime laboratories can sometimes still pull up the serial number on a gun, even if the serial number was ground off. I forget what it is that they do. Anyway that might be something that would work on it, if you can find out what they do.

[Battis]

Basically, as Oyeboten said, there's enough markings and numbers on the gun to determine what the serial number was. I don't think it was ground off on a machine - it looks like it was dragged down the road.

[Tackleberry41]

Yea the FBI can sometimes get those erased serial numbers, but only during the course of an investigation. Paying for such a service would very likely exceed any value in the gun.

Hopefully who ever does put numbers back on the gun will do a better job than the one I saw at auction. Somebody had taken a grinder to the frame of a browning 380, so they put numbers back on it. Looked like bubba did it, uneven, huge numbers like the set I have in my garage. Oddly that screwed up gun auctioned for dang near NIB price.

[Outpost75]

The factory can recover the serial number from the assembly number stamped in the yoke cut, which may be different.

[JSnover]

Why would Mass. not allow 1917's? Assault revolver because it takes clips?
They consider it an 'import,' based on typical New England Liberal Silliness. If I remember, there is a list of guns that can't be 'imported' to Mass. from other states.

[samari46]

There were two contracts from S&W to Brazil. First one in 1937 which will be in a little rectangle below the Brazilian emblem and the second one I thing is in the early 40's. Yhe 1037 revolvers in my mind are the best of the bunch as S&W made these up from brand new. The second contract S&W found some frames from the WW1 contract and some parts left over from the same contract in WW1. Frank

[azrednek]

Brazilian's have the National crest on the right side of the gun. Very prominent.

Can't miss the Brazilian crest.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/1917-a.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/dnisbet/media/1917-a.jpg.html)

For show and tell!! I got these in the 90's when they were 90 and change in lots of 12. I cherry picked the best two for me and sold the rest.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/a-1917.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/dnisbet/media/a-1917.jpg.html)

The crest sticks out like a sore thumb, larger than the S&W stamp on the other side.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/a-1917-2.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/dnisbet/media/a-1917-2.jpg.html)

[Oyeboten]

Very good advice. It helped me...well, kinda.
I bought the S&W M1917 .45. The serial numbers match on the barrel, cylinder and inside the grips. There are several Eagle Head inspector's marks (S1,S2, etc). There are matching assembly numbers on the yoke and inside the side plate. I have not checked any internal parts yet. It has the flaming bomb but no Brazilian marks.
Here's the problem and it is a biggie - when someone removed the lanyard loop they also removed the serial number on the butt. I knew it but still bought it.
I called the BATF on Monday. They said the fact that I reported it covers me against a possible felony charge. Then I got transferred around to find someone who could make the gun "right." Today (Thursday) I spoke with an agent who positively agrees that the gun should not be destroyed. He gave me the contact info for the West Virginia tech office - I have to write a letter to them explaining the situation.
I gotta say, every BATF agent that I spoke with was very helpful (they even called me back).
Like I said, I knew going into it that there'd be some work to be done. And even if I had to turn the gun in, they'd only require the frame - everything else is legal.
The revolver has no collector's value but it's in good shape. There's holster rust on the barrel and cylinder. The bore is really good, everything locks up tightly. Was it worth the work? Yeah.

Please post some good, fairly close up, and close ups of details, natural outdoor light pictures of the m1917?

It'd be fun to see it.

[Battis]

I'll get some pics, once I clean it and reassemble it. Parts of the metal are in tough shape. There's no pitting but it sat in a holster for a long time (I also have the holster). Now I have to decide what I'm going to do with that holster rust on the barrel and cylinder. I don't want to wipe away its history, but I don't like rust.
I ordered a set of half moon clips and one full moon clip to see how they are (I have some once fired 45 ACP brass). I'll probably get some 45 auto rim brass, but once again, living in MA is a problem - the "big guys" (Midway, Cabelas and just about every other large retailer) will not ship unprimed brass to MA, even though it's perfectly legal. Maybe the C&R license will change that for me.

[Battis]

Here's a few pics. Mechanically, it's just about perfect. I stripped it completely down, cleaned every piece, got it all back together. Obviously sections of the finish are in tough shape, mostly from the holster. I can live with the finish for now. Those are empty 45 cases in the cylinder (moon clips are on the way).
Any suggestions on what to do with the finish?
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF5587_zpsccxgcb0v.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF5594_zps6a7jpr99.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF5590_zps25whuukx.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/DSCF5588_zpsla1likvf.jpg

[PaulG67]

It appears as though the lanyard ring was removed and the hole was filled by either welding or brazing, and it was poorly done. This welding or brazing was then cleaned up by grinding which also removed the serial #. The grinding marks are clearly visible on the metal as well as the grips.

[Battis]

That's why I said it looked like it was dragged down the road. I'm working/communicating with the ATF to correct the missing serial number.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You can get a lot of the active red rust off of the surface using 4-0 steel wool and any fine oil including kerosene without removing any more blue. But, beneath the removed rust it will be white (silver) and any pits resulting from the rust will be present. Were the revolver mine, I would give it a high quality polish and commercial reblue like the one I displayed early in the thread; but there are alternatives that you can do yourself without visiting a gunsmith. There are several paint-type finishes like Dura-Coat that can be applied, and if done right they look pretty good. A perusal of the Brownell's catalogue will give a good idea of what is available. There's still no substitute for a good polish job before applying any finish, but to some extent the paint-type finishes will conceal flaws by filling them. Another option would be to have the major parts bead blasted before finishing. It just kind of all depends on what you want it to look like when completed and to what use you intend to put it. I don't know what the weather/humidity conditions are where you live, but I live in the rainy Pacific Northwest. I've always been a great admirer of the traditional polished and blued finish, but a couple of years ago I ran into a situation where a Star 9mm I had purchased as somewhat rusty continued to re-rust after having been cleaned. I decided that it was due to being my concealed carry gun and that it was being subjected to humidity caused by body heat trapped by winter clothing. Although it hurt my personal standards of taste and appearance I decided the solution would be a paint finish, and refinished it using Brownell's Aluma Hyde II in semi-gloss black. I also replaced the grip screws with some stainless steel screws imported from Europe (metric thread), not a problem with your revolver, and the result was a low/no maintenance surface and no more rusting.
I'm not really happy with how it looks in comparison to a blued version, but it's proven highly practical for my environment. There are lots of finish options.
179662
Click to enlarge.

[Oyeboten]

Bronze Wool would be much safer ( use with a light Oil ) if wishing to remove the tactile texture of the corroded places, while not removing the surrounding Blue as well.

If it was me, I would do that a little, then just Wax the exterior with any good Paste Wax.

I think it looks good really, just how it is. Handsome old Revolver..!

Lanyard plug looks more like an old Harness Rivet ( ie: Copper ) than Brazing.

Is the "United States Property" stamping gone or ground off from the underside of the Barrel?

Would have looked like this ~

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xbuNY2XUna4/Us7KWFglYwI/AAAAAAAAL5I/DsFtys3jfsc/s1600/DSCN3351-001.JPG

Butt would have looked like this originally ~

http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/8347/9752588_2.jpg?v=8CD1F4563DB5130

[Battis]

The lettering on the underside of the barrel has been filed off. I'll probably clean it up to stop the rust if I can and retain as much of the original blue as possible. I'm less than 10 miles in from the Atlantic, which is tough on metal around here.
The old, used look is growing on me. Like I said, mechanically it's great.
Other than my carry gun, this is the "newest" revolver I own - all the other originals are cap and ball.

[blpenn66502]

While the serial number is missing from the bottom of the frame, for a M1917 S&W it should be also on the back face of the cylinder and on the bottom of the barrel http://coolgunsite.com/pistols/swm1917_143xxx/swm1917_143829.htm so if either one of them remain you can identify the likely correct serial number.

[Battis]

It's on the inside of the grips, under the barrel, on the cylinder face, and the underneath of the extractor. The assembly numbers match in several places. I have no idea what the ATF's procedure will be - hopefully a local agent can verify the numbers without having it shipped to West Virginia. Response time from the ATF tech branch is approx. 90 days. I have to send a letter - no phone calls or emails.
The agent that I spoke with said that naturally they're more interested in the guns that have had serial numbers removed or altered for criminal activity. He was very interested in the history of the S&W, and said that it should definitely be saved.

[Battis]

Does the headspace (verb) change with the use of moonclips or the 45 AR cases? I'm thinking that case length is very important when loading for the M1917 .45.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

It's an insignificant problem. .45 ACP cases "grow" with use very little, and were it a problem it would be more so in semi-autos. Most semi-auto owners never trim them. In the case of the 1917, it was designed to use the half-moon clips. The .45 Auto Rim was a later development for those who desired to eliminate the use of the clips. There should be no headspace issues at all, and little or no overall cartridge length issues either assuming use of a standard .452 or .454 diameter bullet. Of interest, perhaps, is that the earliest production of 1917 revolvers had no shoulder in the chambers for the mouth of the case to butt up against and were totally reliant on the half-moon clips to keep the cartridges positioned for firing. Without the clips the cases would sometimes slip too far into the chambers to be discharged, and those that were needed to be punched out with a rod. Therefore the shoulders were added to limit depth of entry of the cases, and the large majority of 1917s have them. In these revolvers (yours is probably one of them) the cartridges may be fired without the clip, but in most instances will still need to be punched out. My advice, based on extensive usage, is to buy some full-moon clips and a de-mooning tool, and watch the WTS ads for Auto Rim brass.
179711
Click to enlarge.

[Battis]

179743179744
I found this box of unfired .45 ammo in a store today. The 20 cartridges were made (and stamped) in 1917 in Lowell, MA, about 20 miles or so from my house.
There's a strap of what looks like canvas across the top of the box.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Nice find. Corrosive, of course. Definitely collectable. I've never seen the cloth strip before--looks like maybe the rear of the box was lost and the strip added to keep the cartridges in the remaining part of the box.

[Battis]

179756
Actually, this is the rear of the box, describing what to do with fired cases.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Very interesting. Then one would have to assume that the strip was included by the manufacturer, but I haven't a clue as to why. You could probably find out on a cartridge collector's forum.

[Battis]

They were made by the United States Cartridge Company.

[azrednek]

Actually, this is the rear of the box, describing what to do with fired cases.

Very interesting!! I couldn't blow up the photo enough to read it. Could you kindly let me know what it says? THX in advance

[Battis]

Back of box:
“Notice
As soon as possible after firing, decap the shells and throw them into water.
Clean the inside thoroughly with a brush wiper or piece of rag on the end of a wiping rod, dry and pack loosely in ammunition boxes.”

The front of the box names the powder “No. 1 pistol powder” and the “muzzle velocity – "800 +/- 25 feet per second”, along with the lot number, date of manufacture (1917) and the name of the company.


The box is unopened, with the canvas strap attached (glued) on each end, though I can pull rounds out. They're headstamped "USCCO 17".

[Battis]

I loaded up 20 rounds with 230 gr cast bullets and 4 grs Bullseye. Some of the used brass took large pistol primers, some small. I shot with and without half moon clips. No misfires either way. I have full moon clips on the way, but removing the spend brass isn't that hard.
Large pistol primers: 628 fps average
Small pistol primers: 559 fps average
I have a box of small magnum pistol primers that I'll try.
Great old revolver in single or double action. Mild recoil, accurate.

[Harter66]

I made a demooning tool very similar to this with a steel golf club shaft . I cut it off just below the grip . It will hold 12 rounds or cases . There are actually quite a few threads about de and remooning tools .

179994

I fully admit to plagiarizing this photo with out seeing who posted it ........ Apologies .

[Battis]

I made a tool out of 1/2" copper pipe. I have one full moon clip for now, and the tool works great on that, but not so great on the half moon clips - two of them bent and snapped. User error...

[Harter66]

I think you will find the outside full moons to be more friendly than the inside half moons . Pistol shooters .... Pistol shooters supply ..... Something like that sells the clips and tools as cheap as I have found them anywhere and I believe they are probably the supplier to the more popular known venders . I have a few Wilson combat and a bunch of theirs and see zero difference except $0.30 vs 1.10 each .

[45workhorse]

Nice find, I would be tempted, to leave it as is.
Some guys have all the luck.....

[Battis]

I bought a pack of 8 full moon clips for $7.25 shipped on Amazon. Hopefully they'll be decent. I bought a single one to try but I couldn't find it when I got to the range (it was stuck in my antique flip cell phone).

[beagle]

Back years ago when I owned a couple of S & W 1955 Targets, I bought a bunch of 1/3rd moon clips. For field use they worked much better than either the full moons or half moons.

Interesting thread here. Brings back old memories. I bought my M1917 Smith back in 1960. I was going to college and money was TIGHT. Roomed next to a fellow from Alexandria, VA. He had worked in the receiving room for Interarmco in Alexandria (Ye Olde Hunter). In those days, $25 bought a run of the mill M1917. I laid $25 on him and after Christmas vacation, he brought me a slightly greasy M1917 Smith back complete with scratches and dings from the fiber barrel full of it's brothers that it had been marketed in. He told me he'd dug through and found one in good mechanical condition. This old gun lasted me until I had enough money to play with M1911A1s. The Lyman 452423 and a bunch of Unique according to Elmer in half moons did good duty for me in reloaded GI cases. Good, reliable old guns./beagle