some loading controversy

[Chill Wills]

Because it is a little slow right now I thought I would post some controversy. The following is a copy of a letter (email) to a fellow BPCR Silhouette shooter who just got a CPA rifle last summer and is not shooting as well as I know he can. I have spotted two matches for him this month and I think from observing him, he can be a lot better rifleman than his scores reflect. He has a great deal of high/low trouble. In part, his vertical impacts are due to his loads. In addition his Starline cases are different lengths, most of which are short.

Please weigh in....
I hope to draw out a few more people than the regular culprits. :mrgreen:

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Hey XXXXX,

I would do the chamber cast again if that is easy and you have time. But....



If not I would use the available time to create as many cases the same length as you can for shooting tests and then of course matches.
Sixty good cases would be fine to start. All at least 2.110" in length if not longer. CPA uses reamers that are full length and there is almost no chance you have a short chamber.

If you have extra time do the following....



If I can find a very long case I will set it aside and you should too to use it for fit and trim. I understand you have the case stretcher tool. Get a long case, 0.035' too long and expand it to cylinder and slowly fit and trim until you have a case that will chamber but not by much! Just keep trimming and feeling the rifle lever as you close the action.

Once the case length is found, do a second case to confirm. Maybe trim that by 0.005" and use that length until something causes you think you have a better measurement. ...like a chamber cast. But the trim and fit will work if you are among the careful types.


Once you have a bunch a long cases with square mouths you can really start the load testing.
We can go into the "get a good working load in one quick range session" on some other email - soon.


Things that work for me; Swiss powder; NO Compression; seat bullet into the rifling medium to kinda hard, pistol primers like Federal match pistol and Hard Bullets made out of Pb, Sn, Sb on the order of 97, 1.5, 1.5 of 96.5 - 1.5 - 2.0



The kind of bullets we are shooting - the long nosed Money type need a harder alloy. 20-1 or 30-1 that some people shoot will shoot well with older style blunt bullets but do not work for the long unsupported noses we are using.



Michael Rix

[Lead pot]

Michael

I have three CPA rifles and out of the three I have had one that would walk or would throw some vertical. ( mine are not the through bolt) The rifle was not glass bedded so I bedded the tangs and this stopped the vertical. It shoot very well.
I have their chamber reamer print but it is a .45-90 And I see your talking maybe .45-70?
Here is a very easy way to make a chamber cast that will tell you what you might want to see. Just melt some candles and use the wax for a cast. It fast and easy to clean up fir you over fill the chamber. It will tell you what you want to find out for length or dimensions. Just lightly coat the chamber with oil. The cast will shrink o the inside of the cast not the outside so it will be good enough.

As far as the MB.....I shoot it with a 1/17 T/L but my barrel is the 1/16 ROT Douglas XX premium

[country gent]

Also check the take down set screw to insure it is tight. Mine has loosened up once and gave elevation problems. ANother is finding the right load for the rifle in question. This can be bullet style, powder type, charge or compression. Primers. I have been using alot of Olde ensford 1 1/2f and 2f with good results lately. Another thing to watch for when spotting for this gentleman is if the elevation issues are from the start of the string or develop as the string is fired. Or as the match goes on. It may be a barrel changing zero as it warms thru the string. Or it may be a recoil issue with a shooter not used to the recoil and a flinch developing as he goes along.

[Chill Wills]

Kurt,

"I have three CPA rifles and out of the three I have had one that would walk or would throw some vertical. ( mine are not the through bolt) The rifle was not glass bedded so I bedded the tangs and this stopped the vertical. It shoot very well." Kurt, Bedding is the first thing I check. It is tight but not glassed bedded. I also checked the lug screw. Fine.


"Here is a very easy way to make a chamber cast that will tell you what you might want to see". Kurt, He has cerosafe and made one and now is talking about doing it again. Fun stuff!

Country Gent, "Another thing to watch for when spotting for this gentleman is if the elevation issues are from the start of the string or develop as the string is fired" - Or it may be a recoil issue with a shooter not used to the recoil and a flinch developing as he goes along. There are high/lows from the start. He owns and shot the Pedersoli much better and did not have this issue. It may be a barrel changing zero as it warms thru the string. Maybe. Too early to know.
-M Rix

[Gunlaker]

Michael, one other thing to check on those CPA's is sufficient clearance in the inletting around the hammer spring. Both of my CPA's had issues there which weakened the firing pin impact. One had it worse than the other, but both had the problem.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Michael.

I wasn't going to comment on the 1/20 and 1/30 lead alloy for the M/B because I always seem to get a lot flagg for doing this. Mostly from people that don't have a clue what a bullet ends up looking like when it clears the muzzle and is still in the air.
With these particular bullets I wanted to compare the M/B with popular alloy some use, so I used straight wheel weights and 1/20 tin/lead from roto metal.
From left to right are some bullets shot in the .45-90 using 82 gr of 2f OE. WW have a good amount of antimony and other unknown stuff in them. The third bullet was not fired for comparison and it is 1.457" long. The two on the left, #1-#2 where shot and they just got setback at most .003".
Now look at #4 bullet that was cast in the same mould using 1/20 lead tin using the same powder load and look at the nose setback. It now resembles a Lyman postell at best. That nose was setback .060" and just think what 1/30 alloy would like and I do have some of those also.
Now if that ogive gets setback straight it would still shoot as good as a postell does but a few things will start to show up when the bare lead from the setback nose starts to stay behind shot after shot fired. Or if the nose gets a slump and the bullet develops a wobble and kicks up a unexplained dirt cloud. I'm sure you get my point.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/3edfc3a5-5632-49aa-a596-3856a07c3817_zps0kzhdg2m.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/3edfc3a5-5632-49aa-a596-3856a07c3817_zps0kzhdg2m.jpg.html)

[Chill Wills]

Kurt,
I am pretty sure, even though you are addressing me by name, you really are posting this for those that might be new to the idea; right?

[Chill Wills]

Michael, one other thing to check on those CPA's is sufficient clearance in the inletting around the hammer spring. Both of my CPA's had issues there which weakened the firing pin impact. One had it worse than the other, but both had the problem.

Chris.

Chris, That is a good point. I have had the same result myself on two CPA and had to go after the wood to correct it. Just a few months ago in Cheyenne at a 22 BPCR match, a new to the game but vet of silhouette who just the day before got a new CPA rifle to shoot the 22 BPCR game could not complete the match with his new rifle. Failure to fire. I ended up loaning mine and we shared.

He got it home and scraped the inletting (wood) out in the tight area and now he has a tackdriver 22rf rifle. Everyone is happy. .... Now!!!! Wasn't then!

I will have my friend look into that! Good call!

[Don McDowell]

Have you watched his grip on the gun? Those CPA's seem to be a bit more sensitive to limpwristing with the gun hand. Also check to be see if he's putting the same pressure on the lever spur. The way they recoil is a bit different than a sharps, and see if he's picking his head up to quick...

[Chill Wills]

Yup - you called it. He was lifting his head trying to watch the steel go down. Darn shame! watching is fun. But we know if we want to hit them all, we have to follow through and keep our eyes in the sights.

Why yes, I did mention to him with a laugh, you do the aiming and I'll do the watching and let you know where the shot goes:mrgreen:

But, that did not resolve the vertical

[Don McDowell]

I finally layed my wiping rod beside the spotting board, Eddie said I got mine, I said it's not for you to wipe with, I'm gonna beat you with it if you lift your head before the target goes down. LOL
I wonder if he's getting into some problems with his wiping routine? Was he still using the BACO bore wipes?

[Lead pot]

Kurt,
I am pretty sure, even though you are addressing me by name, you really are posting this for those that might be new to the idea; right?

Yes I am.

[Chill Wills]

Well, I don't know about his BAC Bore Wipes but our friend, who will remain nameless, uses patches popped from his own, homemade patch popper. I think his wiping is working. It looks good and I was blowtubing all day - so I don't think there was a way he could have got behind.

[Don McDowell]

Did he change bullets from his Pedersoli?

[Chill Wills]

Yes. He bought a mold or two and also tried a few designs I cast for him. Bullets might be one of the items on the load development list we cover soon.

[Don McDowell]

I've had two rifles now go to throwing a bunch of vertical. One of them turned out the spring on that holds the site staff in position had weakened letting the sight not come back to position win the same spot, the other the staff had loosened in the drum.. Guess things like that won't happen if you leave em in the safe and don't run a couple thousand rounds thru em every few months..:)

[Gunlaker]

I finally layed my wiping rod beside the spotting board, Eddie said I got mine, I said it's not for you to wipe with, I'm gonna beat you with it if you lift your head before the target goes down. LOL
I wonder if he's getting into some problems with his wiping routine? Was he still using the BACO bore wipes?

That made me laugh Don. I have been guilty of the same thing. Shooting with a scope is neat because you can see the bullet mark on the steel before it falls so maybe there is less head lifting tendency :-).

I think that maintaining a consistent hold, trigger pull, and follow through for each and every shot when shooting prone is maybe the most difficult part of this game. Probably more so than wind reading, except maybe when you get past 800.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Seems to me I remember saying that same thing to someone at the Alliance and Quigley shoots LOL.

[Don McDowell]

Chris I know I'm staying in good position when I see the muzzle flash in the rear sight before the recoil moves the sight. Eddie was just to accustom to the CAS thing where they yank the trigger and start moving to the next target. But him and that Freund gun are getting along real well now.

[montana_charlie]

I would use the available time to create as many cases the same length as you can for shooting tests and then of course matches.
Sixty good cases would be fine to start. All at least 2.110" in length if not longer. CPA uses reamers that are full length and there is almost no chance you have a short chamber.

If you have extra time do the following....



If I can find a very long case I will set it aside and you should too to use it for fit and trim. I understand you have the case stretcher tool. Get a long case, too long and expand it to cylinder and slowly fit and trim until you have a case that will chamber but not by much! Just keep trimming and feeling the rifle lever as you close the action.

Once the case length is found, do a second case to confirm. Maybe trim that by 0.005" and use that length until something causes you think you have a better measurement. ...like a chamber cast. But the trim and fit will work if you are among the careful types.


Once you have a bunch a long cases with square mouths you can really start the load testing.
We can go into the "get a good working load in one quick range session" on some other email - soon.
Michael Rix
I would modify what you told him only this much.

If he normally shoots cases that have been full length resized, then his 'test case' should be sized before expanding the mouth to full diameter and probing the chamber.
If he shoots 'fireformed' cases, then he should to that first ... to assure that the case is still 0.035'' too long before the trimming starts.

[Chill Wills]

Charlie, I Agree.

A little back story. This issue of case cylinder diameter (being large enough) ; the fired case diameter in part got us going because he said he thought his chamber was too tight and he is having trouble getting a fresh 0.459" cast bullet into fired cases.
Hmmm...
Not resized or necksized and expanded but not going into a fired case.
Maybe - but odd!

So, I offered to take a case home after the match and measure with my ball-anvil mic. Also with my set of pin gauges do a GO/NO GO test on the inside diameter of the fired case.

I found up to a .460" diameter gauge to GO and .461" NO GO
The Starline 45-70 cases mic'd 0.010" + wall thickness and very even and close all the way around. Good cases I think. So... I am not sure what the problem is yet. Also, he is careful and good at this kind of thing so I do not know why he was having trouble getting bullets in fired cases.

More to come...

[Lead pot]

CPA uses a chamber that is not the normal, but close what seems to be standard. I have drawings of it when I ordered my rifle from them. I opted not to use their chamber because I wanted it to be tighter for a PP only chamber.
Their chamber is tighter then what most manufactures use but very close to the Shiloh Chambers except for the throat and transition from the mouth into the throat, it is flatter(not a 45). Their neck diameter is .481 at the case mouth and .345" back it tapers up to .4838" to allow I think for the case thickness taper as it gets thicker towards the base???
This is my thought on his problem. .481" case mouth .020" brass thickness gives the fired case inside diameter .461" not allowing for some spring back as the case cools. If that case is trimmed as fired tight to the chamber end and snug fit in the case before it is fired it is possible that the case neck gets pulled up in the transition and gets swaged down to less then the diameter of the bullet.
I have this problem when my cases start to lengthen and need to be trimmed with the tight chambers I use.
Then there comes the problem with the bullet mould, and I don't know if this is his case.
Aluminum moulds will expand with the temperatures they cast with more then a iron mould. This gets to be a problem if the bullet is shot as cast if the temp of the mould varies. Tight fitting alignment pins holding the mould from not closing completely will vary the diameter of flash between the mould handles keeping the halves from aligning properly changing the diameters when casting.

:) just a little more loading controversy :)

[John Boy]

The rifle was not glass bedded so I bedded the tangs and this stopped the vertical. It shoot very well. CPA also has 'fatter' tang screws which will tighten the stock better to the tang

[EDG]

>>>I do not know why he was having trouble getting bullets in fired cases.<<<

Probably that rock hard Starline brass is springing back. All it needs is annealing.
Starline needs to get its act together and quit shipping all their brass in the work hardened state.

[Chill Wills]

CPA uses a chamber that is not the normal, but close what seems to be standard.
This is my thought on his problem. .481" case mouth .020" brass thickness gives the fired case inside diameter .461" not allowing for some spring back as the case cools. If that case is trimmed as fired tight to the chamber end and snug fit in the case before it is fired it is possible that the case neck gets pulled up in the transition and gets swaged down to less then the diameter of the bullet.
I have this problem when my cases start to lengthen and need to be trimmed with the tight chambers I use.

:) just a little more loading controversy :)

Kurt - all the cases are short. It was a fired case I cleaned and pin gauged 0.460" GO / 0.461" NO GO

He uses a 0.459" lube sizer to apply the lube - the bullets, what ever size they come from the mold are not going to be too large - RE: the 0.460 GO gauge. I can check that point again with him but his bullets should not be the cause so far as I know.

[Chill Wills]

>>>I do not know why he was having trouble getting bullets in fired cases.<<<

Probably that rock hard Starline brass is springing back. All it needs is annealing.
Starline needs to get its act together and quit shipping all their brass in the work hardened state.

I hear you! But again, It was a fired case, annealed or not, that I gauged. So its comparative hardness is not at issue as to its fired inside diameter. The fired case is large enough.

You do make a good point about annealing the Starline cases and I will ask him about it - it could have some bearing on the high/low accuracy trouble!

[Lead pot]

It's hard to work things out with out having the problem in your hands. I shouldn't even try to guess what might be going on. Vertical if it is the load can be worked out by making changes or checking case neck variances or seating die adjustments if a GG bullet is used that changes the neck tension. Cases to long will really throw vertical, more so then a grain over or below the accuracy load.

I'm sure you guys will find out what is going on. I have to get out and do some shooting now for a upcoming weekend midrange match with a new lot of powder to make sure nothing has changed :)

Kurt

[Chill Wills]

Darn right! Get out there and shoot!

Prone or Three Position ?

I wish I had a 3P mid-range match coming up! That is my favorite. No one around these parts wants to shoot them because the offhand stage; scares them off. Real riflery is hard to come by.

OK - O.T. over...

[Lead pot]

It's just a small informal match maybe 15 give or take a few, maybe 5 will shoot a muzzle loader. Position or prone is your choice. I cant shoot prone anymore, or at least get up shooting prone :) So I shoot sitting and off hand if others are doing it. Just a fun end of the season get together.

Roger.....out :)

[Don McDowell]

Darn right! Get out there and shoot!



I wish I had a 3P mid-range match coming up! That is my favorite. No one around these parts wants to shoot them because the offhand stage; scares them off. Real riflery is hard to come by.

.

Nope, there's two of us that like that position match.:)

[country gent]

I always enjoyed and looked forward to the offhand stages also. Matches were won offhand and lost prone LOL. I can no longer safely shoot offhand standing due to mobility and balance issues. So I do it from the waist up sitting on a stool now.

[Chill Wills]

Country Gent - well at least you are getting out there! That is the important part.

OK Don, I guess just you, me and Eron like it. OK, and Jack O will shoot it too. So we got a few of us. So why don't we ever get a match?

[Don McDowell]

Bet we could get Cody to bite on that match as well..When you going to have it? :)

[Chill Wills]

It's hard to work things out with out having the problem in your hands. I shouldn't even try to guess what might be going on. :) Kurt

Yes, that is the same problem I am having too. I don't have the rifle nor the rifleman here. It makes it somewhat of a guessing game but as you say, we'll get it worked out. He is one of the many "good guys" we have in this game and I want to get him shooting better.

[montana_charlie]

Kurt - all the cases are short. It was a fired case I cleaned and pin gauged 0.460" GO / 0.461" NO GO.
Had he tried to insert a normally-prepped bullet in that specific case ... before selecting it for you to measure?

I have been firing the same batch of stretched and trimmed cases for so long I am dead certain they are not shrinking or growing.
But, after a trip through the ceramic tumbling a few may exhibit a tiny 'lip' on the inner mouth.

I don't cut this away as that would eventually shorten the case. Instead, I 'iron' it flat with a Lee Factory Crimp Die adapted for use with 2.4-inch brass.

To find these (few) cases needing 'ironing', I slip a .460" expander plug into the mouths of all of the primed cases before adding powder. The expander plug is (essentially) your pin gauge.

If your Bud doesn't have the restriction on all case mouths, he might be seeing what I do ... and needs to give you a case that he can't push a bullet into.

[Chill Wills]

Had he tried to insert a normally-prepped bullet in that specific case ... before selecting it for you to measure?


Yes. No. Well, kinda...

Charlie, we were at a Silhouette match. I was spotting for him. He was having high/lows.
At the end of the match we were talking about all the ways this problem might be solved.
He said, amounst other things, "I can't get my sized lubed bullets inside a fired case; I have to run the case into the expander die first."
He further explained that he thought the chamber was too tight in the CPA rifle and or the case wall thickness on the Starline brass abnormally thick. He was not sure and was speculating.

I asked, do you mind if I take one of the fired cases you shot today home? I have a ball anvil Micrometer to accurately measure case wall thickness and a set of pin gauges to check the inside diameter of the fired case.
He gave me a case to take.

I got home and cleaned his case with my fired cases in the ceramic cleaner and did the above reported measurements.

PS. that misspelled word "amounst" always gives me fits.

Charlie, I am not sure where you are going but you always have an interesting thought.....

Standing by....

[montana_charlie]

Yes. No. Well, kinda...

Charlie, I am not sure where you are going but you always have an interesting thought.....

Standing by....
I'm already where I was headed.

If ALL of his cases give him the problem of not accepting a new bullet in unsized brass, then your measurement only tells you the part of the story that was in your hand. The next step is to know (for sure) the diameter of his bullets.

But, I am assuming that only SOME of them need that trip to the expander, which means he may have given you one that would NOT have exhibited the problem.

As to the question of 'what the problem is' ...
If he gives you a known troublemaker to measure, and the mouth is lightly peened inward ... that can cause it.
And, a number of others have talked about their own experience with the issue.

Then a guy gets to decide what to do about it.

Since his cases are already short, he may as well do a light spin on the inner mouth with his champhering tool.
But, if he decides to use that case stretcher, and create some well-fitted brass, then something similar to my plan will keep long cases long.

[Chill Wills]

Charlie, some good thoughts. Thanks.
His next step is making sure all his cases are long enough and square. He may have completed this by now.

There are a few questions that came out of this discussion that he and I can cover in our next meeting. So far so good.

It is hard to take this much farther until (we) know all cases and bullets are uniform.

When I get time tonight I will reread this whole thread and make notes of items I want to ask him about addressing. The possibility that the hammer is dragging on the wood is high on the list of things to look into. That alone could explain a lot.

[kokomokid]

We got a new lot of powder and my shooting partner started shooting large groups. He tested different loads at home and said the groups just got larger but when we got to a match and the firing pin tip locked up his sharps he found the problem. Seems firing pin strike makes a big difference.

[Chill Wills]

Yes - that is a good point! Sorry, bad pun.

Broken firing pins have been at the root of many "rifles" and "loads" going sour. That is until we learn the pin is damaged or outright broken into two but held captive and the rifle still fires. Had that happen to my CPA this year during the 22 BPCT nationals. If you don't catch it right away it can leave you wondering why you are shooting so poorly and waste an expensive once a year outing.

We checked that on my friends rifle - first thing:drinks:

[Chill Wills]

Progress update:
Based on our emails he lengthen a case to a very long 2.135" using the die mounted case stretcher BAC sells, the one produced by the gunstock checker. By repeated test fitting and trimming it in his rifle he found that cases stretched and trimmed to 2.115" was the desired length. He then made all his cases for that rifle 2.115".

Last weekend we held a silhouette match and I got to observe again. He has two loads. One, a dedicated 200 meter load using a lighter bullet for offhand chickens. He shot five which is good shooting anytime!
His other load used for P-T-R, using the heavy MB type bullet is not an accurate load and really does not hold the target well in any condition. Maybe a 3 MOA load. Hits are here and there so all one can do is bracket (center) the elevation as best you can guess and they land where they land somewhere in that larger circle.

He was planing on bedding the buttstock with a Brownell's bedding product next. We are going to meet and shoot test loads after he has completed this next step.

[Don McDowell]

I wonder if he's not trying to shoot a bullet that is just a touch long for the rifling twist?.

[Chill Wills]

Good thought Don. The bullet is 1.425" shot in a 18t 45 barrel. Should be good. However, I have thought that one possibility is something is out of alignment when fired - starting the bullet's flight with built in yaw from the get go. That can be checked but it will have to wait.

Gota go vote now....

[Don McDowell]

I would drop back and try the Saeco 645, the Baco 525 mb, or even the lowly oft forgotten lyman postel and see if things don't tighten up a bit.

[sharpsguy]

What Don said--

[Chill Wills]

I would drop back and try the Saeco 645, the Baco 525 mb, or even the lowly oft forgotten lyman postel and see if things don't tighten up a bit.

By "drop back" I think your point here is try a shorter bullet. Correct? I really don't think that is the trouble. I have round holes and god stable flight with even longer bullets than his current P-T-R bullet, the 525 money bullet. I fully agree, trying to get stable accuracy from a bullet that is long and marginally stable is a fools errand. I've been on that errand.

The SAECO 645 would be a good one to put in the 'mold of the month club' bullet trial but I predict neither bullet length nor style of mainstream bullets will turn out to be the cause or the cure. I bet it will turn out to be either, primer choice, bedding, or prone rifle management during the match. The latter is the one I often see and the hardest to help with. At matches I stand behind the competitors and watch. Simple things like recognizing you are hanging on (from) the rifle in the prone stages can cure high/lows. I see this kinda stuff all the time. Maybe it is the number one reason for high/low hits. Riflemen on the mat start out by putting themselves in the wrong prone angle and as a result, take a pounding from the recoil. This leads to monkey hanging on the rifle to keep from getting hurt. It is really hard to shoot your best when you are dodging the butt stock. The rifle reacts to the different pressures from shot to shot as the rifleman tries slightly different holds throws the shots every direction. Most often we don't even know we are doing it.

[Lead pot]

I just have had a interesting thing going on with my new rifle that has shot well all summer and just two weeks ago I shot it in the rain and last Saturday I had a problem holding the 8 ring with the same load. I loosened the forearm screws and things came back together. Wood swelling putting pressure at a different location on the barrel changing the harmonics??? I took the wood off and have it in a box with a 60 wad light bulb. Lets see if it comes back when it dries out.

[Don McDowell]

Michael, correct, my "drop back" was indeed go to a lighter bullet. That 645 has shot well in every 45-70 I've ran it thru.
Agreed many a time the "flinch" will eat our lunch when shooting prone. I saw someone at a match that had a string attached to the crosssticks he used to measure that he had the correct height. I have noticed many times that if I don't have the sticks at just the right height things don't go so well down range, reaching the eyeballs or scrunching to hard into the comb causes no end to the problems down range.
Sure hope you can get your friend on the right track, and get him and that rifle to find a working arrangement.

[Chill Wills]

How come your up at this hour???? Watching the election results? Good bet?:twisted::drinks:

[Don McDowell]

:drinks: yessir was a short time from going to bed and sunup.