trapdoor springfield

[charliek]

it looks like I'm going to get an 1884 Trapdoor. What kind of problems can I expect?

[Hardcast416taylor]

I`d clean the bore very thoroughly then lightly oil it then slug it to find out what diameter bore you actually have. They have been as large as .464" and as small as .457". The trick to an accurate shooter is getting the right boolet in the case to be fired. My 1884 has a .462" bore.Robert

[Chill Wills]

I`d clean the bore very thoroughly then lightly oil it then slug it to find out what diameter bore you actually have. They have been as large as .464" and as small as .457". The trick to an accurate shooter is getting the right boolet in the case to be fired. My 1884 has a .462" bore.Robert

Question: Can you describe your process for measuring the slug?

[1Hawkeye]

Sore shoulder,empty wallet,overwhelming urge to get another one. Other than that the only kinda problem you might experience is the bore may be a little over sized.460/.462 but casting your own will cure that. It's surprising how accurate a trapdoor will shoot and 84's have the Buffington rear sight which is the best. I have an 84 myself but it's a early one with the older sight.

[varsity07840]

Question: Can you describe your process for measuring the slug?

You need to measure the groove to groove diameter of your barrel, which is not possible with a caliper or standard micrometer. Find a machinist with a three flute v anvil micrometer. The ideal diameter is .458 but few TDs are. Your bullet casting options include the
Lee 405 gr hollow base which will cast .461 plus or minus in 20/1 alloy and is popular for that reason. If you have a mould that
won't cast that big, you can try using softer lead to get the bullet to bump up into the grooves.

[salpal48]

Once You Buy 1 you will become a Collector. My first Trapdoor was purchased 40 years ago. never slug the bore Just Loaded them and shot. . They seem to grow Like a Family. Now I have 27 relatives.
Welcome to the club

[Buckshot]

................I too have a 1884 TD. It was in very good condition other then stock having been sanded, and worst of all the bore was fairly bad. I never did try BP in it, and it might have done better. At this point who knows? What I did was to send it off to The Montana Rifleman. Turns out they have a tracer lathe and said they could duplicate the barrel so I sent my barreled action up to them. Asked to have the barrel reproduced and the correct holes D&T'd, etc. Got it back all barreled up and I reattached the sights and it was off to the races. No longer authentic with it's new 6 groove barrel, but boy does it shoot!

Later on at one of the last big Los Angeles gunshows I stumbled onto an H&R Carbine (Little Bighorn Commemorative), saddle ring carbine.

http://www.fototime.com/6FB1E451F888E31/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/5910E3F3A49AD40/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/DD20159DEB531E2/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/C8F7A7A68C91170/standard.jpg

They also made an Officers Model that had an add on pistol grip, so believe that the reason for the extra long trigger guard tang and extra screw?

In any event the TD rifle was very effective and was continually improved over it's entire service life, which was actually a bit too long. Lots of folks complained about it's long service life, which may be true to one degree or another. However unlike most other countries, the United States was protected by 2 large oceans, and only 2 neighbors. One to the north and the other to the south. Neither were anymore warlike then we were. On the other hand the fractious Europeans living cheek by jowl with all their 'Court Intrigues' and interlocking treaties seemed to be in some kind of continual heated military arms race of some type or another.

Consider just one, Germany for example. Paul Mauser gave them the very fine M1871 bolt action single shot. The British soon had the Martini which was also a magnificent rifle. It's problem was that it could not be turned into a repeater, just like our Trapdoor was a dead end. But the German 1871 after only about 9 years of serial production morphed into the M71/84 tube fed repeater! HOLY Smoke! A couple years later the French developed a dependable smokless powder (Germany had been working on it's own also) and the French came up with the ultra modern 8mm Lebel, which was a bolt action repeater using smokless powder, EGADS!! :-)

Meanwhile the U.S. was still playing cavalry and Indians, and the Indians were usually better armed for their type of warfare, but our government (as a whole) was paying not much attention to Europe. We of course wanted nothing to do with their political and seemingly endless skirmishes and what not. So now not only Germany but many other countries were completely junking their existing armories and re-arming with repeating (usually bolt action) rifles using smokeless powder and newfangled jacketed bullets. Of course our military leaders both Martial and civilian were paying attention (I think our Army mustered about 25,000 troops at the time) but development money was hard to come by. Another issue was the American people. They were not a negative, by any means, but the American people's idea of advancement wasn't of a military nature. Unlike a lot of European countries populations.

Americans were busy building a country (1880's America was still kind of wild and wooly out west! :-) and they wanted railroads, bridges, telegraphs, schools, churches, colleges, roads and agriculture. So, in any event the U.S. military finally cast about, and even oddly enough spent money trying to convert the TD to the new smaller but more powerful smokeless powder cartridges. So we'd have STILL had a single shot, HA! We ended up with the Krag, which was a fine and effective rifle, but not really (with perfect hindsight) what we should have had. But at least we had a newfangled smokeless repeater.

So our little 'Set to' with Spain over Cuba, and the eventual election of Theodore Roosevelt as president after the turn of the century, finally set the stage for our military being brought into the 20th Century. Not that the average American really spent much time thinking about it. Still wasn't that important to them.

.................Buckshot

[19Wyoming]

I just got my first TD a couple of weeks ago. 1868. 50 70. I scrubbed the bore real good, loaded
10 450 grainers and off to the range I went. What a kick in the butt it was. It shot good, no issues and it's going again tomorrow.
Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

[Scharfschuetze]

Congrats on getting that new (old) Trapdoor! I'm sure you'll really enjoy it.


They also made an Officers Model that had an add on pistol grip, so believe that the reason for the extra long trigger guard tang and extra screw?

The Little Big Horn commemorative carbine was the H&R that actually had the pistol grip. It was a copy of the metal grip used on some of the original Officer's and Marksman rifles.

Over the years, I've shot everything from BP loads to smokeless loads in the TDs. My favorite load mimics the cavalry load of a 405 grain Lee or Lyman boolit at 1,100 fps. It's easy on the shoulder and will easily range accurately to 1,000 yards. I've surprised many a marksman at various demonstrations at history events and military battlefield walks with TDs.

Sadly, the tang sight issued with the H&R Officer's Model is not very tall and is limited to about 400 yards, or it would be even more fun when shooting out on the deserts and plains of the Rocky Mountain States. The H&Rs have the advantage of a .458" bore which makes it easy to load for without any oversize boolits or dies.

My favorite model of the Trapdoors is the 1873 with the modifications of 1879.

Here are my original Trapdoors, Models 1870 through 1888. These all have very good bores with little to no wear and all get shot from time to time. Other than the center 1873, they all have readable and undamaged cartouches, finish and proofs.

[dualsport]

it looks like I'm going to get an 1884 Trapdoor. What kind of problems can I expect?
When I got my Cadet Model the firing pin was broken and very corroded. It took some effort to fix that. I think you'll find .461 works. Just a hunch. Congratulations. And it's true, one isn't enough.

[M-Tecs]

Question: Can you describe your process for measuring the slug?

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=3255

HOW TO Measure Odd Number Groove Diameter
The following question was posted on the old "ASK EACH OTHER" forum by ccrider on 09/20/2009:
"Can some one explain how you measure a slug from a 5 grove barrel so as to determine bore size?"
It was answered by Bob S Posted - 09/20/2009:
"Wrap the slug with thin shim stock; mike the shim stock first, it may not be "as advertised". Wrap the slug tightly,
and mike the resulting wrapped slug very gently, so you don't compress the shim stock into a groove in the slug
(which is an imprint of a land in the bore). Subtract twice the thickness of the shim stock, and that is the groove diameter."

All I am doing here is demonstrating the technique put forward by Bob S. I think it is a good one.
I have only one such firearm, a 1873 45-70 Springfield Trapdoor rifle. It has 3 lands and 3 very shallow grooves.
Using the shim stock technique this is how I measured the groove diameter on my rifle.

1-All Purpose Machine Rest & Shooting Bench I use it on the range as a bench rest, a remote controlled trigger machine
rest and a gun cleaning rack located next to my gun safe and reloading bench at home. The 'Hyskore Dangerous Game Machine
Rest and Rifle Rest' is secured to the ambidextrous bench with two bolts for quick removal for transport and to free up the bench
for sandbag shooting.
http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt320/papaalbert/1-AllPurposeMachineRestShootingBenc.jpg

2-Tools & Supplies Used
MAKING THE RAMRODs
I prepared two 7/16" (0.4375" diameter) hardwood dowels to use as ramrods to drive the slug through the bore, one 6" long to
start the slug and another to push it through to the breech.
The ends of the dowels were turned down a few thousands of an inch on a lathe to fit tightly inside fully sized 40S&W cartridges
with spent primers. One end of the dowel was secured by a Collete in the headstock and a 40S&W brass end cap was pressed
squarely on the other end using the tail stock feed. When the caps were tightly in place, the lathe was put into reverse and a cutting
bit, set above center, was used to crimp the mouth of the case onto the dowel.

PREPARING THE SLUG
Prepare or purchase one or more pure lead bullets of the caliber of the bore.
{Cast bullet molds often produce over sized bullet diameters that include the caliber (i.e. 30 caliber = .300 inches) plus twice the
depth of the groove and a little more for shrinkage.} If the prepared bullet slug diameter diameter is not at least as much as the
expected groove diameter to be slugged, place the bullet in a vice squarely between two flat hard surfaces and slowly squeeze
the bullet's length until the desired diameter has been achieved.
{I use a machinist's vice that has smooth jaw faces but any vice will work if the face of the jaws are covered with a smooth hard material.}
Lightly lubricate the bullet with any high viscosity grease, being sure to put grease in the grooves of the bullet.
{I used RIGG'S Grease.}
http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt320/papaalbert/2-ToolsSuppliesUsed.jpg

3-Slugging the bore
Place a pure lead bullet in muzzle and press by hand, nose first as far as possible.
With a mallet, tap the bullet into the bore until it is flush with the muzzle and the location of the bore is obvious.
{I used a rawhide mallet but a steel hammer would work if a piece of soft wood was held between the base of the bullet and the hammer.}
Using the mallet and the short ramrod drive the slug 4-5 inches into the bore and withdraw the short ramrod.
Use the long ramrod to continue driving the bullet through the breech and retrieve it for measurements.

http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt320/papaalbert/3-Sluggingthebore.jpg

4-Measuring the groove diameter
Wrap the brass shim around the slug, allowing the edge of the shim to hang over the base. I used a 1" x 5" piece of 0.002 and 0.005 half
hard brass shim stock and got the same measurements with both. Tempered shim stock would be better than half hard.
Anything thinner than 0.002 is likely to reduce the actual diameter measurement and anything thicker than 0.005 more may be too
difficult to pull tightly around the slug. Use a caliper to make several measurements at several different cross sectional areas.
Subtract twice the thickness of the shim from the measurement and that is the groove diameter. Care should be taken not to press the
shim into a groove on the slug.
http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt320/papaalbert/4-Measuringthegroovediameter.jpg

Mission accomplished.

[tbx-4]

Most excellent, M-Tecs. Thank you.

[Kevin Rohrer]

Problems? Finding the time and components to shoot it.