Henry Big Boy in 44mag won't shoot.

[GMW]

I read here that the Henry 44mag has a very slow twist. I have it decked out with the Skinner Golden receiver sight with the adjustable aperture. My problem is I can't get it to shoot worth a dam at 50yds. I have a Lyman mold designed after the Keith boolit and also the Lee 240gr tumble lube mold. I also tried Extreme's copper coated in 240 grains. Because of the slow twist, I thought I could get one of these mentioned bullets to shoot. NOT! I've used unique, H110 and 2400 all at several slow and fast loads but nothing will group worth talking about a 50yds. I also tried a Lee 315gr GC'ed over 15grs of 2400 and that load shot a 2 inch group. I thought a heavier bullet would not shoot so well with that slow twist? I have a 50yd range out back so I do try many different loads. Any ideas on a decent load for these bullets? I have the mentioned powders along with some RX7, red dot, blue dot, Lil'gun, and 4759. Thanks.

[Baja_Traveler]

Have you slugged the barrel to eliminate bullet diameter from the equation?

[longbow]

From the specs the Henry Big Boy in .44 mag has 1:38" twist same as my Marlin. I can shoot boolits up to 270 gr. with good accuracy. In fact 300 gr. "J" bullets shoot pretty well to 50 yards but are tumbling by the time they get to 100 yards.

My Marlin has a typical "fat" groove diameter of 0.4315" so needs a boolit sized to at least 0.432" and I generally cast at 0.433" to 0.434" depending on mould and shoot as cast.

When I first got the gun I did not know about the typical oversize groove diameters in .44 mag rifles and bought a Lyman 429421 mould (245 gr. SWC) which being a Keith boolit just had to be right for .44 mag... right? Not! I am not sure if your Henry has a large groove diameter but I suspect it has as it is a SAAMI standard.

The Marlin did not like the SWC design so feeding was iffy (not sure about Henrys and SWC's) and accuracy was pretty poor. After a bit I found I had leading and so started checking things and sure enough I had a mould casting 0.429" for a gun with 0.4315" grooves so I got myself a fatter mould and accuracy was much improved with little to no leading.

In my case, "J" bullets shot quite well but the 429421 not so much. Have you tried jacket bullets to see if it shoots them okay?

I am thinking Baja_Traveler has asked the right question ~ have you slugged the bore and is the boolit you are shooting at least 0.001" over groove diameter?

Lee and Lyman moulds tend to cast to typical handgun groove diameters of 0.429" to 0.430". I use Mihec and Accurate moulds that cast 0.433" to 0.434". NOE is also a good source of moulds for fat bores.

A fat boolit may solve your problem.

Longbow

[kungfustyle]

+1 on slugging the bbl. I bought the Rossi because of its better twist 1 in 30. I have the NOE 433 290 gc that I run over H110 and am able to put 5 into a baseball size group at 100 yards. http://www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RZD&Category_Code=ZBJ-44MAG check here for jackted leads. Can't beat the price.

[GMW]

Have you slugged the barrel to eliminate bullet diameter from the equation?
I never even thought of slugging the bore, I guess because it is a brand new rifle. I will slug it today, however, if the bore is out of spec, I think that a call to Henry will be my next move. Thank you all for the replys.

[randy_68]

I have a Big Boy brass .44 and it is a very accurate rifle. I only shot one factory load which was a 270 gr Speer GD and with a Skinner peep on top I was able to get 2" and less groups at 50 yards. However with my hand loads of 240xtp over 24.5 gr Lilgun I shot 3 shot groups as small as 5/8" at 50 with all under an inch. I have since switched to shooting a Noe 432-265 over 19.5 gr H110 and it will shoot right around an inch or so. I will be using that load this fall.

Also I size mine at .431 and lube with Ben's Red.

[44man]

Sorry as all get out, wrong twist---PERIOD. You can't make silk panties from a pig ear.
I complained to Marlin and they sent me the dumb, stupid Greenhill junk.
You will read how great some get it to shoot but do I believe it---NOT on your life. It will not be done and anything other was luck with crazy boolits going off course to hit close once. 300+ out of a 1 in 38". Must live where the world has a different spin.

[Ramjet-SS]

Yes 44 man has this correct my 44 Henry shoots 180 grain really really well. Mine would never drive the heavy weights rate of twist is just too slow. Now my BFR 444 will drive 310 RF at 800 FPS because it has 1:16 rate of twist.

My my advice enjoy the rifle for what it is a light bullet shooter.

[GMW]

I slugged a 45cal round ball today and the overall diameter is .429. I understand that that slow twist will shoot lighter bullets better than the heavier ones but why can I get my best groups, with the Lee tumble lubed 315gr cast? My mold purchase budget has been depleted for now so I might have to shelve this endeavor for a while. Thanks for all the replys.

[reivertom]

Contact Henry and tell them what you've told us here. They may give you the formula or make it right.

[longbow]

If the gun has 1:38" twist then I seriously doubt you will get any sort of accuracy with a 315 gr. boolit unless velocity is high and range is short... then maybe.

Try something in the 240 to 265 gr. range. In fact you would likely do well with the Ranchdog 265 gr. design from NOE. Alternately if your mould budget is light try a 240 gr. Lee. Lighter might even do better but anything in the mid 200 gr. range should be fine.

[GMW]

The 240gr won't shoot with ether the Lee tumble lubed or the Extreme plated 240's. That was stated in my original post, I was hoping someone would suggest a powder and load for those two bullets. Again, my Lee 315gr gas checked over 15grs of 2400 gives me 2" groups at 50yds. I called Henry and they won't give out any cast loads, but Tom stated that any 240gr factory bullet should shoot well, some brands better than others. I won't pay the $ for factory ammo. So I hung up the rifle for now until I get the cashish for a lighter mold.

[longbow]

So you did. Since your bore slugs at 0.429" (which seems tight for .44 mag rifle ~ but good) and those bullets are likely 0.429"/0.430" I am at a loss.

Like I said, my Marlin shot poorly with the Lyman 429421 but it cast at 0.429" and the Marlin groove diameter is 0.4315" so an obvious issue there. It shot jacketed bullets reasonably well but not cast.

Have you tried any jacketed loads at all? If not a box of bullets might be a good investment to check the gun out. If it shoots jacketed well then it is a cast issue. If not then there may be something amiss with the gun.

When you slugged the bore did you push the slug right through the barrel? If not, you should to check and see if there are any tight spots. It is possible you got a bad barrel.

Hopefully someone else has better answers than I do.

Good luck.

Longbow

[GMW]

Thanks Longbow, I'll pick up a box of 240gr factory bullets and load them. I have all the major loading manuals to make some standard loads. I don't know why I didn't think of that, its seems like such a logical suggestion. Patience was never a strong point for me.
I shoot a longbow, a stick bow made of osage orange backed with a rattle snake skin. I do 18th century living history and throw the knife, tomahawk and shoot my flinters and longbow. It dosen't get much better than that. Thanks again!

[Ramjet-SS]

Give the 180 XTPs a try as well they work fantastic in mine.

[longbow]

GMW

You are welcome and I am sure you will find a solution. I will help if I can.

You will want to clean the copper out of the bore after shooting jacketed bullets though... before shooting cast again.

Interesting you shoot a bow as well. I shoot a yew flatbow and a few others in oak and black locust. I started making wood bows about 20 years ago and am hooked. I was setting up to make laminated bows then decided to try a self bow. I was so impressed with my stick and string I have stayed with that. Mine aren't fancy but they shoot fine. Lots of fun!

Take care.

Longbow

[curator]

GMW,

Longbow and others have good advice here. SAAMI specifications for .44 Rem Mag rifle bores is .431, not .429 as in pistols. One of my shooting friend had had the same problem you describe with his Henry Big Boy .44. His barrel had a tight spot under the barrel band and another where the magazine tube was mounted. Fire-lapping with the LBT kit removed the constrictions easily. Cast boolits for most .44 Mag rifles need to be .432" diameter, hard (BHN16+) Gas checked, and quality lubed, NOT tumble-lubed with Lee liquid Alox. Weight is less important than length, but blunt-nose with good bearing surface will usually shoot most accurately. A .432 lead boolit .65 inches long needs to hit 1400 fps. to be properly stabilized in a 1 in 38" twist slower than that won't do it.

[longbow]

RanchDog told me his 300 gr. design stabilized in 1:38" twist all the way to 300 yards if pushed hard and I have been told that WFN designs to 300 grs. will also stabilize if pushed hard.

I was unable to do it in my gun, though I did not try those specific designs. I have a home made push out mould (like the old Lyman cylindrical moulds) in RNFP design that shoots well at up to 265 grs. out to 200 yards but when I made same design in 300 gr. they would not stabilize. I also tried a 300 gr. blunt TC design paper patched boolit that shot well to 50 yards or so but were keyholing at 100 yards. I tried Hornady 300 gr. "J" bullets with same results at 100 yards and worse accuracy than the 300 gr. cast at 50 yards.

Yes, I hadn't mentioned it here but curator is right on tight spots. I read about the same issue with Marlins so checked mine and sure enough I had 3 or 4 tight spots in the bore under roll stamps and dovetails. I chose to hand lap those out as my gun has a microgroove barrel so I didn't want to try firelapping for fear of removing too much rifling. The hand lapping worked well and did improve accuracy and eliminated leading (along with fat boolits).

I have settled on using boolits of up to 270 grs. at 0.433"+ in my Marlin with 1:38" twist. I have the MIHEC H&G #503 which casts at 258 grs. solid and the MIHEC 434640 which casts at 270 grs. solid and both do pretty well in my gun. Then I have the RNFP 265 gr. which does well all the way to 200 yards. If I go heavier then accuracy falls apart. All my moulds cast boolits at 0.433" or larger now. I still have the old Lyman 429421 mould but have not used it for probably 20+ years. Many say it is the classic Keith boolit and the best around and maybe is in revolvers but it is not for fat bored Marlins.

The SWC design did not feed worth a poop either. Not sure if that is an issue with the Henry but I'd check it out before buying a mould.

Longbow

[doc1876]

As for the copper fouling, Hodgen makes a powder called CFE. I have some for the rifles, and have not shot any yet. I also have it for the pistol, and am loading it in the 45 ACP. I am very happy with it in this.

[44man]

Yes, heavy boolits need driven very fast and it will exceed pressures the gun can take. Plus the .44 is a small case after all. Marlin got a lot of flack over the .444 in 1 in 38", even that one had troubles so they changed it to 1 in 20" at some point.
Why gun makers from Marlin on decided on the wrong twist baffles me. Other calibers did not go that way, just the .44.
MY SBH, 10" will stabilize a 310 gr at 1316 fps with 1 in 20". Imagine what is needed with 1 in 38"?
It will be much more then 1400 fps. Those are book numbers from formulas that never work. An off the cuff would be over 2000 fps.
I went and calculated it and found you need to get a 310 gr to 2500 fps to match my revolver spin.
Anyone up to making a .44 do that? You CAN NOT do it in a .444.

[longbow]

I am with you 44man!

I have to think that slow twist was a carryover from .44-40 days for lightweight boolits. The .44-40 twist was slow as well. The .44 mag. Marlin was intended to shoot pistol boolits and does so reasonably well if they are not over 270 grs. or so though a faster twist would make the gun so much more versatile and not hurt accuracy with the lighter weight boolits.

Now why on earth Marlin would have saddled the .444 with such a slow twist is beyond me and most others. It was supposed to be a "modern .45-70" operating at higher pressure but they set it all up to shoot handgun boolits and lightweight handgun boolits at that. If made with 1:20" twist or thereabouts it would handle boolits of 400 grs. easily making it competitive with the .45-70. That is a different discussion though.

Longbow

[44man]

I am with you 44man!

I have to think that slow twist was a carryover from .44-40 days for lightweight boolits. The .44-40 twist was slow as well. The .44 mag. Marlin was intended to shoot pistol boolits and does so reasonably well if they are not over 270 grs. or so though a faster twist would make the gun so much more versatile and not hurt accuracy with the lighter weight boolits.

Now why on earth Marlin would have saddled the .444 with such a slow twist is beyond me and most others. It was supposed to be a "modern .45-70" operating at higher pressure but they set it all up to shoot handgun boolits and lightweight handgun boolits at that. If made with 1:20" twist or thereabouts it would handle boolits of 400 grs. easily making it competitive with the .45-70. That is a different discussion though.

Longbow


Actually a 45-70 is slow at 1 in 18"

[longbow]

Whatever the twist, we are in agreement that both the .44 mag and 444 should have much faster twists and especially the 444 which would allow appropriate heavy weight boolits of 400+ grains to be loaded and shot which would indeed make it a "modern .45-70" with performance exceeding .45-70 factory ammunition. Having said that of course in a modern Marlin or other strong gun the .45-70 can be loaded to much higher than factory pressure levels so it would likely still out perform the 444. Non-reloaders would not see that benefit though.

Who knows why the decisions to use slow twists were made but I suspect that people making far more money than I do made those decisions.

[Ramjet-SS]

Yes, heavy boolits need driven very fast and it will exceed pressures the gun can take. Plus the .44 is a small case after all. Marlin got a lot of flack over the .444 in 1 in 38", even that one had troubles so they changed it to 1 in 20" at some point.
Why gun makers from Marlin on decided on the wrong twist baffles me. Other calibers did not go that way, just the .44.
MY SBH, 10" will stabilize a 310 gr at 1316 fps with 1 in 20". Imagine what is needed with 1 in 38"?
It will be much more then 1400 fps. Those are book numbers from formulas that never work. An off the cuff would be over 2000 fps.
I went and calculated it and found you need to get a 310 gr to 2500 fps to match my revolver spin.
Anyone up to making a .44 do that? You CAN NOT do it in a .444.

Ha I can tell you how they got the 1:38 in the 444; some purchasing agent decided they could save money and buy the same barrel blanks as the 44 (quantity discounting) . I bet they did so without even consulting the design department. Before they know it they build a truck load of useless 444 rifles. Quantity discounting is what drives mfg in this country. It also hurts many products that could be so much better. The other premise might be lower operating pressure with the slower twist. Great for round ball shooting not so good for elongated projectiles.

[44man]

Might be right but why did Ruger and Henry screw it up too? Many others followed too.
One of our good fellows here found a .44 rifle tops for slow twists at 1 in 25" for normal weights but 1 in 20" is better for heavy.
Ruger messed up too and made the magazine to fit light bullets. Even if the twist was made right, you could not fit the magazine with larger.

[Ramjet-SS]

Well all companies have to answer to the stock holders or owner. That means ROI so decisions are made for the sake of the overall bottom line. For example if Company B buys 5000 1:38 twist barrel blanks and Company A could tag onto that production for allot less than asking for 1:20 twist blanks then they by all means are going with profit over design criteria if they all agree it's not that big a deal. Will most who purchase the 44 buy thier ammo and shoot the commercially available 180-240 grain bullets? Probably. Just because a few "know it all cast bullet shooters" (toungue and cheek) say the 1:16 or the 1:20 is a better performing twist; Are they the majority of folks who purchase the weapons? Maybe but most like they are not. Would most the buying public pay 10-15-25% more for those rifles with the faster twist? Do they even know it matters?

[OverMax]

What does the manufacture suggest for a bullet weight/s being shot out of their rifle? Start there and end your search there to garners the rifles best overall accuracy is my suggestion.

[Flinchrock]

I can't help the OP with his accuracy problem, but I would like to comment on the twist rate subject.

My Henry BB in .45 Colt has a twist rate of 1:16, and my Winchester/Miroku '92 in .45 Colt has a twist rate of 1:20,checked by me, more than once. Both of these rifles shoot just fine. The heaviest bullet I have that they will feed is a 285 RNFPgc from Accurate.

I think that I got lucky with the BB because they are supposed to be 1:38 also. Interestingly enough, they both slug the same, .4515, without tight spots.

[Flinchrock]

What does the manufacture suggest for a bullet weight/s being shot out of their rifle? Start there and end your search there to garners the rifles best overall accuracy is my suggestion.

I just don't think I could hardly stand it if I was Forced to shoot light, jacketed bullets...:shock:

[sghart3578]

I can't help the OP with his accuracy problem, but I would like to comment on the twist rate subject.

My Henry BB in .45 Colt has a twist rate of 1:16, and my Winchester/Miroku '92 in .45 Colt has a twist rate of 1:20,checked by me, more than once. Both of these rifles shoot just fine. The heaviest bullet I have that they will feed is a 285 RNFPgc from Accurate.

I think that I got lucky with the BB because they are supposed to be 1:38 also. Interestingly enough, they both slug the same, .4515, without tight spots.

That is good to hear about the Henry. I just bought a Henry BB Steel today in 357 mag. I will shoot it tomorrow but based on what I have seen already my next rifle will be a Henry in 45 Colt.


Steve in N CA

[GMW]

A friend of mine gave me 10 hornady 200grs XTP's and I loaded them up under 28.5grs of h110 with a magum CCI primer. My largest group was 2 inches at 50yds with manageable recoil. I have a red fiber optic skinner front sight which is kind of large so I probably could of done better with a post sight. I ordered some Hornady 180gr xtp's and I have good expectations with those. I like to shoot daily so I will still be looking for a good cast alternative. Thank you all for the time you gave posting and suggestions. This site is a gem!

[Ramjet-SS]

Ahh things getting better that's good to hear. I bet the 180 XTPs will group as well.

[Ramjet-SS]

That is good to hear about the Henry. I just bought a Henry BB Steel today in 357 mag. I will shoot it tomorrow but based on what I have seen already my next rifle will be a Henry in 45 Colt.


Steve in N CA

You are going to love that 357. I just got a BB Carbine and have run 350 rounds through it already in two weeks. What hoot it is too shoot. I a, going to scope it up next week and see just what it will do.

[longbow]

If you are looking for a lightweight boolit take a look at the Accurate Molds site. Tom has quite a range of weights for the .44 and will make about anything you want.

I got him to scale down a light .45 TC to .44 in 165 gr. at 0.433"+ diameter for plinking and really like it.

I am betting your Henry will shoot well with up to at least 240 gr. and likely heavier in jacketed. I have to say that I never light loaded my Marlin so can't say how those 270 gr. would do at lower velocity. I have always loaded those near max.

The little 165 gr. does well over 8 grs. of 700x. It is a bit light though as I wanted a real lightweight boolit and that it is. 180 gr. to 200 gr. would be a bit more versatile for general shooting with more load data available and should shoot well for you.

Longbow

[44man]

I have always found most other calibers are rifled right, just the .44 is the pain. I never understood the reason.
A .45 with 1 in 16" should handle 335 to maybe 350 gr boolits.
My 45-70 BFR is 1 in 14" and it will shoot 300 gr and up, very versatile and the best is my 317 gr and the heaviest I have shot is 420 and it is still accurate. I have not tried my 500 gr+ yet, no need. I will always believe a faster twist is better because you can load down or get a short barrel to shoot and a heavier boolit will work better.
A strange one was the S&W 29's with 1 in 18-3/4". Perfect for very heavy but the guns hate recoil. They all shot into 1/2" at 50 meters with 240 gr bullets but watched through a spotting scope showed a corkscrew flight at range. They flew a rotation around the flight path. Going to a 250 gr eliminated it. Over spin did no harm to accuracy.
The 45-70 sporting rifle will have 1 in 20" but the BPCR is 1 in 18" for heavier boolits but still not fast enough because they shoot slower. They should be 1 in 16". A 500 gr boolit is still in the .45 Colt velocity range.
I also believe as a barrel is shortened on a revolver, the twist should be faster since the loss of velocity even though small affects stability.
The S&W .460 has a gain twist but guys cut them short. I don't know if the .500 S&W has a gain twist. The BFR in .500 JRH is 1 in 15" and still needs pushed. But it still works down to 6".
Close range target shooters like a slower twist so they don't get the cork screw. But long range needs faster so the boolit will settle and still have spin. Twist is so important.

[ironhead7544]

When the 444 Marlin came out, there was no suitable jacketed bullet for it. So they went with the 240 gr that was available at the time.

The 240 gr bullets were accurate in the 1 in 38 twist. Hornady came out with a 265 gr bullet with a heavier jacket for rifle speeds. They determined the 265 was the heaviest that gave good accuracy.

The 444 Marlin was the last of the Express type cartridges, IMHO. It was meant to revive the high powered lever rifle and give it a bit more range.

[GMW]

If you are looking for a lightweight boolit take a look at the Accurate Molds site. Tom has quite a range of weights for the .44 and will make about anything you want.

I got him to scale down a light .45 TC to .44 in 165 gr. at 0.433"+ diameter for plinking and really like it.

I am betting your Henry will shoot well with up to at least 240 gr. and likely heavier in jacketed. I have to say that I never light loaded my Marlin so can't say how those 270 gr. would do at lower velocity. I have always loaded those near max.

The little 165 gr. does well over 8 grs. of 700x. It is a bit light though as I wanted a real lightweight boolit and that it is. 180 gr. to 200 gr. would be a bit more versatile for general shooting with more load data available and should shoot well for you.

Longbow
Yesterday I loaded up some XTP's in 180grs over 28.2grs of H110 with a CCI 300 primer. My groups were good at a consistant 1.5 inches at my 50yd range. I believe that I can tighten them up a bit when I remove the Skinner red fiber front sight and install a brass post sight.
So, my Henry will shoot light bullets, not real happy about that though I have no one to blame but myself for not finding out the twist before I bought the rifle. I will give longbow's suggestion a try when my mold funds get replenished. If anyone is willing to sell me a dozen or so of lighter cast boolits, please pm me with your address and I will send you the funds plus shipping this Monday. Thanks!

[44man]

I would love to help. I designed a long range boolit and had Dave farmer make a mold. I expected the SBH to shoot it but no luck. It shot great from the marlin at 50 but at 100--NO! It is not a good hunting boolit either, very small meplat.
I made a lube test and got this at 50.179659 Left was hard LBT Blue and right was Felix. The boolit is adjustable from 240 to 250 and I don't remember what I shot.
Strange thing is that it is shorter then my LBT boolits but would not function in the Marlin so I had to shorten brass. I could not eject a live round. Why the LBT's worked confused me.
Not much you can do with twist.