Fired my first black powder cartridges and had some problems

[commando223]

I finally made it out to the range with my .43 Spanish rolling blocks and the ammo I made. I fired a total of 8 rounds and I noticed some had a line on the neck that I could feel with my finger nail and one case actually split open and almost went all the way around. Most of the cases had the primer pushed out a bit after firing.

I used 85grains of 2F old eysenford powder
CCI large rifle Magnum primers

I used a drop tube and compression die then seated the bullet to the crimp line with a tiny crimp.

Can anyone tell me where I went wrong ?

[BK7saum]

Sounds like you did everything as you were supposed to. Appears that the cases might have been old and the brass brittle

[commando223]

Sounds like you did everything as you were supposed to. Appears that the cases might have been old and the brass brittle

Thats the thing this is brand new Jameson brass from midway. I was thinking maybe I compressed them too much? or I should have made them longer to make sure the wad and base of the bullet were higher in the neck.

[Skipper]

Thats the thing this is brand new Jameson brass from midway. I was thinking maybe I compressed them too much? or I should have made them longer to make sure the wad and base of the bullet were higher in the neck.

Did you leave any air space between the powder/wad and the bullet base?

[commando223]

Did you leave any air space between the powder/wad and the bullet base?

Nope I think it actually might have pushed the wad down just a bit when seating

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Sounds like an over sized chamber to me. You might try annealing the brass you have left and just neck sizing.


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[BK7saum]

I would also second the annealing of the cases before firing anymore. There has been brass leave the factory with a less-than-desirable anneal. In a tight chamber that would probably be fine but in an oversized chamber they will split. I would say anneal the case necks and then try again

[Lead pot]

commando 223.

This sounds more like a head space problem when you mention the primer backing out and pulled necks.
One thing that could be your problem is which .43 Spanish roller you have.

The .43 Spanish Reformado is similar, but original cartridges use a .451" diameter brass jacketed bullet.

The .43 Spanish (11.15 x 58R) uses a .439" diameter lead bullet.

The .44-77 Remington (aka .44-77 Sharps) uses a .446" diameter lead bullet.

Some of the rollers where made in Scandinavian countries also. All of these can have a slightly different rim and head thickness. S

[sharpsguy]

Listen to Lead Pot. He isn't guessing or speculating. He knows what he is talking about.

[Don McDowell]

Scrap the magnum primer, and go with a standard large primer, drop the charge down to about 75 gr.
If that doesn't help with the deformed cases, probably best to check the headspace, and do a chamber cast to see just what you have to work with in that chamber.

[RPRNY]

Scrap the magnum primer, and go with a standard large primer, drop the charge down to about 75 gr.
If that doesn't help with the deformed cases, probably best to check the headspace, and do a chamber cast to see just what you have to work with in that chamber.

Well worth the effort. It will save you money and vastly increase your enjoyment of this rifle.

I am of the 'no need for magnum primers' with BP school. BP will easily ignite and the 75 - 85 grs range will combust without anything more than the weakest primer you can use. It does indeed sound like a headspace issue to me, with the rim on you brass thinner than the rim recess cut in the chamber. Chamber cast, determine exactly what you are shooting, anneal brass and consider fire-forming brass with a @ 25 0 30 grs charge of BP topped up with corn meal and a was plug in the case mouth.

[commando223]

Scrap the magnum primer, and go with a standard large primer, drop the charge down to about 75 gr.
If that doesn't help with the deformed cases, probably best to check the headspace, and do a chamber cast to see just what you have to work with in that chamber.

That's what I was planning to do the recipe called for 90gr GOEX but at 3" OAL mine was shorter to the crimp groove. I did slug the barrel on these and they are .439. I'm starting to think when I seated the bullet it might have pushed the wad down slightly under the neck. Do you think that would cause this issue?

[montana_charlie]

I'm starting to think when I seated the bullet it might have pushed the wad down slightly under the neck. Do you think that would cause this issue?
I dunno, but you can compress powder without a wad, then seat your bullet on the charge.
That will eliminate the possibility ...

[Toymaker]

Slugging the bore and doing a chamber casting are two different things. 1) Get some Cerrosafe (chamber casting alloy) and cast your chamber. It's easy to do and you get all kinds of interesting information. Important stuff too. 2) Lead Pot and the others that say anneal your cases have the right of it. Hard and brittle cases are the number one cause of your type of problems. 3) Like Don said, dump the magnum primer. Don't experiment with large pistol primers. Use a quality large rifle primer.

[Oyeboten]

Thats the thing this is brand new Jameson brass from midway. I was thinking maybe I compressed them too much? or I should have made them longer to make sure the wad and base of the bullet were higher in the neck.

What weight Boolit?

Sounds like what one might expect with undersize hard Brass Cartridge cases, in an oversize Chamber.

[commando223]

(439 Diameter) 370 Grain

[Don McDowell]

That's what I was planning to do the recipe called for 90gr GOEX but at 3" OAL mine was shorter to the crimp groove. I did slug the barrel on these and they are .439. I'm starting to think when I seated the bullet it might have pushed the wad down slightly under the neck. Do you think that would cause this issue?
That wad below the base of the neck is a real possibility. I shoot 77 grs. of 2f OE in the 44-77's , just drop tubing that charge should get your bullet to seat with just minimal compression and still keep the wad and bullet base well above the base of the neck. RP 9 1/2 primers seem to give the best results with OE.

[commando223]

Well I would like to pull these bullets and start over but not sure how to go about that for Black Powder cartridges.

[Don McDowell]

You can use a regular bullet puller, but with as much compression as you put on those, that powder is likely to be a solid cake, and is going to be pretty hard to dig out of there. You can also just run the case in the press without a die and grab the bullet with a pair of pliers or vice grips and lower the handle.

[BrentD]

I would defiinitely check for a headspace problem. But I wonder what the line on the neck is all about. Your description doesn't tell us much, but could have you have a ringed chamber (in addition to head space issues)?

Were loaded cases easy to chamber?

Were fired cases easy to extract?

Primers didn't make diddly worth of difference with regard to the issues you encountered.

Could be bad brass, but that's a little bit of a long shot.

[commando223]

I would defiinitely check for a headspace problem. But I wonder what the line on the neck is all about. Your description doesn't tell us much, but could have you have a ringed chamber (in addition to head space issues)?

Were loaded cases easy to chamber?

Were fired cases easy to extract?

Primers didn't make diddly worth of difference with regard to the issues you encountered.

Could be bad brass, but that's a little bit of a long shot.

Here is an image of the one that actually opened the others had a very fine line in the same place but I could barely see but could feel with my finger nail. All rounds were easy to chamber in and out.

https://s14.postimg.org/g98iumett/IMG_20161017_173439.jpg

[BrentD]

Well then, my money is with Kurt (Lead Pot). Forget about the primer issues and compression probably is a nonstarter as well

[Washington1331]

I've heard of a similar phenomenon of case separation with BPCR shooters as a result of a "wet chamber". I've never had it happen to me, but from what I understand, its when the chamber is moist with either condensation, or as a result of over zealous wet swabbing without appropriate drying. Basically the water acts as a hydraulic vise, not letting the case mouth appropriately expand to release the boolit. As a result the bullet grips the case neck and tries to take it with it down the barrel. To me, that looks what may be happening based on the location of the split on the neck. It may also explain the signs of high pressure of the primer backing out.

If you look inside the neck can you see any signs of lube grooves from your boolit?

Did the gun come from a cold environment (like car A/C) to a warm one on the firing range? Had you been overly zealous in cleaning and could you not have gotten all the solution out of the chamber?

Just my thoughts. It could be a head space problem as Lead Pot suggests. If you know how to check your headspace, and do a chamber cast I would definitely recommend that before trying again... You can't be too safe! If you're not comfortable performing the checks yourself, I would have your gun checked by a competent gunsmith before trying again.

Here's a link to a thread discussing a similar issue to yours. http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23830

[BrentD]

Wash1331, if it was case stretching down the bore, wouldn't you expect to see some sign of the case mouth climbing the throat into the rifling? I've see it happen, and it's pretty unmistakable when it does.

That's why I think it is head space or bad brass.

[Lead pot]

I shoot .44 bottle necked cases in the .44-77 and the .44-90 bn. Before Jamison made good brass for these calibers I used .44 Bell basic and reworked .348 brass. The 348 Win brass has problems with the proper rim thickness and I got a lot of brass getting the necks pulled off because of a head space problem that was only 8 to 10 thousands because of the thin case heads even when I let the breach block finish seating the round but the firing pin when it hit the primer pushed the case forward till it rested in the front of the rim recess and the primers got pushed out. Once the cases that survived and the shoulders got pushed out the problem stopped as long as I dod not push the shoulders back sizing the case beyond just neck sizing.
The powder load will not cause primer setback or the bullets used. Head space will do this. I can dig out a bunch of cases that show what your seeing on your cases. You can measure your head space a simple way if you don't have the proper professional tools.
Go to ACE HDW and get a 1/4 " brass rod long enough so at least a inch is past the muzzle, I suppose a 1/4" wood dowel will work also but I like brass. Now insert a empty case with the brass rod all the way in the case holding both ends when you seat the case till it is in contact with the front of the recess, careful you don't move the case while closing the breach. Best to have the rifle in your cleaning cradle so it's flat horizontal so no weight is on the rod to move the case. Now measure what is sticking past the muzzle and write that measurement down or zero your depth gauge with that measurement. Now push the case back till it contacts the breach block and read this measurement. That is the amount of head space you have. It don't take much to pull the neck on a bottle neck case especially if you set the shoulder back more sizing the brass.
Stretching a case into the throat is usually caused by brass to long for the chamber or a soft case with a heavy crimp on the bullet.

[Lead pot]

Just a little input what I had to do with some these old rollers forming brass from other cases before proper cases were found.
When I formed bottle necked cases for the .40 bn's or the .43's cases or the 11mm with the improper headspace. I annealed the case necks after forming the bottle necks and if there was a lot of head space I would wrap thread on the base ahead of the rim and seat the round in the chamber. The thread would hold the case against the breach block when closing it forcing the case in tight against the breach block. When the shot was fired it would blow the shoulder tight against the chamber taper. Now the case will fit the chamber with it resting against the breach block doing away with the head space as long as only the case neck is sized if it needed it. Now the head space is against the shoulder of the case and not the rim.

[Don McDowell]

Another thing you can try is seating the bullet out far enough that you have to force the block closed, and see if the shoulder problem leaves.
The enlarged/backed out primer is likely from the firing pin hole being to large letting the primer flow back around it, along with excessive headspace.
If neither of the headspace solutions work, then it's likely you're looking at the very least having the barrel set back and rechambered, or a complete re barrel.

[1Hawkeye]

I'm just starting to study the .43's but could it be a .43 Egyptian? And not a Spanish.

[commando223]

I pulled the bullets today and it looks like the wad did get pushed down slightly below the neck. It's kind of hard to see in the pictures but the dark line is where it begins to bottle neck. The powder was also very compressed and difficult to remove I had to use a flat screw driver in a twisting motion to take it out.

The next cartridges I make would have less powder, compression, regular large rifle primers, longer OAL and no crimp.

https://s14.postimg.org/j9owry98x/PA180025.jpg

https://s14.postimg.org/9exrlq5ap/PA180029.jpg

[Don McDowell]

Well now lets see what happens with the next go round.

[Don McDowell]

I'm just starting to study the .43's but could it be a .43 Egyptian? And not a Spanish.

The 43 spanish case head is just a touch larger than a 45-70. The 43 egyptian is a bit fatter than a 50 cal sharps case head, and the rim is larger than the 50.

[Hogpost]

No disagreement about headspace causing your primer issues, but for those cracked necks: you have a heavily-compressed wad below the shoulder, looking like it's full case body diameter. When fired, this firm disk will be jammed against the shoulder, trying to squeeze down enough to fit through. At that point, its rim will be grabbing that shoulder firmly and trying to shove it forward, which could result in the crack line. I encountered something similar many years ago (young and stupid) trying to fireform bottlenecked brass to straight-wall with an in-body wad covered by Cream of Wheat filler. Not saying that is definitely the problem, but I'd recommend you ditch the wad in this fireforming stage: you aren't looking for velocity or accuracy, just a cleanly formed case. Ditching the wad can't hurt, but it might help.

[RPRNY]

I pulled the bullets today and it looks like the wad did get pushed down slightly below the neck. It's kind of hard to see in the pictures but the dark line is where it begins to bottle neck. The powder was also very compressed and difficult to remove I had to use a flat screw driver in a twisting motion to take it out.

The next cartridges I make would have less powder, compression, regular large rifle primers, longer OAL and no crimp.

https://s14.postimg.org/j9owry98x/PA180025.jpg

https://s14.postimg.org/9exrlq5ap/PA180029.jpg

Welcome to the wonderful world of BPC! One of the things I most enjoy about BPC loading and shooting is that it can be both less and considerably more complex than smokeless. Often at the same time. There is so much room for refinement and so much of the old knowledge from the turn of the 19th Century has been lost, but often regained and readily shared here, among other places.

Good luck with your next batch and stick at it.

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[John in PA]

Standard factory load for the Spanish Remington was 77-78 gr powder. 2f would be closest. Anneal cases before firing. If you suspect xs headspace before first fire, test by adding progressive thicknesses of tape to the base and try closing the breech each time. If it takes more than 1-2 thicknesses of regular scotch tape, then fireform first, either by seating bullet to engage rifling, or by the thread trick mentioned earlier. After proper fireforming, adjust your sizing die so that shoulder is only set back barely enough for the breech to close. That should end the separations.
Oh, and mag primers may give more consistent ignition and velocities. (See Spence Wolf's book on loading for trapdoor Springfields for more info there.) They certainly did NOT cause your problem.