Any info on Traditions flintlock?

[bradley.moss72]

I have a couple of muzzleloaders, a T/C White Mountain Carbine 50 cal and a CVA 50 cal inline. I want to try a flintlock.

I am lucky enough to live 10 min from Dixie Gun Works. They have a Traditions Kentucky Rifle flintlock on sale. Anybody have any experience with this rifle or with Traditions flintlocks in general?

Any comments or suggestions on flintlocks in general?

Any information will be appreciated.

BW

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[curator]

The jump from a modern "in-line" to flint lock is a big one. The Traditions flint locks I have worked on had low quality locks. With a flint lock, the lock is really important. An experienced flint lock shooter can get them to work (mostly) but a novice will find a lot of frustration. You can install an "after-market" lock from L&R that will work a lot better but that will add another $150 to the price assuming you can install it yourself. From my experience, Traditions barrels are mostly OK but the rest of the gun is low quality. If you live near DGW, check with them about a used Pedersoli or even better an older "custom" flintlock with a high quality lock. The aggravation of low quality persists long after the joy of low price is forgotten.

[waksupi]

Keep in mind that a used Traditions will sell for less than what a good quaility lock or barrel costs on it's own. You get what you pay for.

[bradley.moss72]

Although I have an inline, it is a recent aquistion. I started with the T/C WMC, so not really a "jump" from an inline to a flintlock.

Waksupi, this is a new in the box Traditions. It is on sale for $435. Even if I add a lock upgrade as was previously suggested, at $150 I'd still be under $600, most I have looked at that I'm interested in have started at over $800. Maybe I have just not found the right one. . .

BW


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[KCSO]

"Bought as reliable as my Son in Law!

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

not quite gents. The issue with the traditions is the frizzen which is often called 'soft'. The real problem i found is super heavy duty frizzen springs. When its heavy ( 8lb rannge) it tends to cut deep into the metal because that springs has no give. I use a small clamp and reduce the pressure to around 3bs and have had zero issues since then and all nice white and yellow sparks.

70 shots on this traditions frizzen with french amber flints and its not even eating into the frizzen.
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w581/FrontierMuzzleloading/Traditions%20Firearms/IMG_7865.jpg

[koger]

I have actually ground down the frizzen spring on some custom flintlock locks, to tune them, and get the 3.5# tat lets the frizzen really snap back an sends a great shower of sparks into the pan. The two Traditions flintlocks that I had, sparked and fired really well.

[rfd]

i've had a gaggle of the spanish and italian trad muzzleloaders and in my observations of working with each, both shooting and taking them apart, the better value are those made by investarms and sold as lyman, dixie gun works (dgw), cabelas and maybe other re-brandings. as i've learned through personal experience with commercial offshore trad muzzleloaders, i'll now avoid cva, traditions and pedersoli brands, as their patent breeches are impossible to remove or work on (traditions even cautions attempting to de-breech will ruin the barrel). investarms patent breeches can be removed, but with the right tools. might not matter to everyone, but working on the breech does to me. ymmv.

the production trad muzzleloader i recommend is the dgw kit flint hawken style, w/dst - easy to assemble, excellent performance, $425 ... or $515 for it ready to shoot. or the lyman flint trade rifle, single trigger, about $450.

[Sasquatch-1]

This has nothing to do with the quality of the rifle but more about the style. I shoot at a club where you have to shoot from a bench on a rest. Sand bagged or mechanical. With the Kentucky I have the points on the butt stock dig into the arm unless I use some sort of recoil pad. I have come home several times with large bruises on my shoulder.

[rfd]

This has nothing to do with the quality of the rifle but more about the style. I shoot at a club where you have to shoot from a bench on a rest. Sand bagged or mechanical. With the Kentucky I have the points on the butt stock dig into the arm unless I use some sort of recoil pad. I have come home several times with large bruises on my shoulder.

if the issue is with a crescent buttstock, as found on hawken type examples, are you properly shouldering the butt stock on the meat of yer shoulder and not on the bone, and while the the fore end or barrel rests on something, yer non-trigger hand should be holding the butt stock firmly into that shoulder flesh as you touch off the round. failure to firmly place the butt plate properly, as in bench shooting, will do just what's happening to you - pain that can easily be avoided. take this from a feller that is right handed and has a frozen right shoulder syndrome - if i can touch off a full load .62 caliber long gun off the bench without any shoulder issues, so can most anyone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLZKS2Iv8v0&feature=youtu.be

[KCSO]

I build muzzloaders and work on these locks all the time. They are at best functional. Tuning one for reliable ignition includes re hardening the frizzen tuning or replacing the springs polishing the camming surfaces polishing the pan and depening on which lock installing a bridal as some have no bridal. It is just about cheaper to buy a good lock from Track unless you can do the work yourself. Oh and does the lock line up with the flashhole? And down the road are you going to be happy with a crude copy of nothing in particular. If it's just to shoot and go bang go for it, but if you intend to rendezvous or hunt wait and find something better.

[Sasquatch-1]

Unfortunately the benches at the range I go to are low and I have to hunch over a bit to shoot. There is also an overhang from the roof which prevents raising the rifle up for better positioning. All in the name of keeping the bullet on the berm.


if the issue is with a crescent buttstock, as found on hawken type examples, are you properly shouldering the butt stock on the meat of yer shoulder and not on the bone, and while the the fore end or barrel rests on something, yer non-trigger hand should be holding the butt stock firmly into that shoulder flesh as you touch off the round. failure to firmly place the butt plate properly, as in bench shooting, will do just what's happening to you - pain that can easily be avoided. take this from a feller that is right handed and has a frozen right shoulder syndrome - if i can touch off a full load .62 caliber long gun off the bench without any shoulder issues, so can most anyone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLZKS2Iv8v0&feature=youtu.be

[bradley.moss72]

Unfortunately the benches at the range I go to are low and I have to hunch over a bit to shoot. There is also an overhang from the roof which prevents raising the rifle up for better positioning. All in the name of keeping the bullet on the berm.
Dang Sasquatch, are you sure your not shooting from a WW2 "pill box" bunker?
[emoji15]

BW

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[rfd]

I build muzzloaders and work on these locks all the time. They are at best functional. Tuning one for reliable ignition includes re hardening the frizzen tuning or replacing the springs polishing the camming surfaces polishing the pan and depening on which lock installing a bridal as some have no bridal. It is just about cheaper to buy a good lock from Track unless you can do the work yourself. Oh and does the lock line up with the flashhole? And down the road are you going to be happy with a crude copy of nothing in particular. If it's just to shoot and go bang go for it, but if you intend to rendezvous or hunt wait and find something better.

i fully agree, particularly with the spanish built trad ml guns. investarms and pedersoli are just overall better, imho - with investarms (lyman, dgw, cabelas) the better value in a production trad ml due to its somewhat easier serviceability. typically they'll also have flint locks that are a bit more reliable, particularly after some tweaking. spending the near $200 on an L&R-RPL replacement flint lock pretty much defeats the initial cost of a cheap gun, it's not a perfect drop-in replacement, and there'll still be remaining issues of contention with the gun. so much for cheap flinters.

yep, most if not all of the offshore trad ml guns have no permeable connection to the reality of the 18th and 19th centuries, either - that would require a custom built gun that will meet historical and period correct criteria (if that was the intent, for re-enactment) and goes beyond just dabbling in trad muzzleloaders.

for the dedicated dabblers who are interested in a trad ml for hunting or just the experience of shooting, and don't care about period correctness, i'd still recommend an investarms flinter such as the lyman trade rifle or dgw hawken - either will be a good learning experience and they can be made to be more than a reasonably reliable and serviceable flintlock hunting gun without much added expense. been there, done that, many many times. ymmv.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

ive own many lymans and one pedersoli. Other than upfront cost, they spark about the same as my traditions. My traditions actually have their lock properly mounted against the barrel where as the lymans always had a gap and lost priming powder between the lock/barrel.

Ive had one traditions flinter since 2006 and tried to have someone harden the frizzen and that was a waste of money. I simply changed to french amber flints which seem best for the traditions and cva rifles and the sparks that rifle produces now is amazing. All due to a simple flint change. Those english flints just dont cut it in my rifles. Plus I get a lot more shots with the french amber and can use them down to little nubs.
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w581/FrontierMuzzleloading/Oklahoma/IMG_6795.jpg

[waksupi]

That gap at the bolster is easily fixed.

[rfd]

though it's not gonna matter to most folks from the get-go, it may - or will - later on when barrel and breech work is required with their cva, traditions and all other spanish trad ml's - you ain't gonna be happy campers. spend the extra dollar$ up front and get a trad ml that will allow it to be worked on and function for perhaps a lifetime. you'll get what you paid for, and why those who truly enjoy hunting and shooting trad ml's will eschew these offshore commercial production guns and go straight to an onshore gun maker and get it all right once and for all. yer gonna get lots of opinions and comments via the internet, in forums such as this, and yer task will be to filter out the chaff from the wheat. do yer homework to spend yer money wisely. and as always, ymmv.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

bobby hoyt can servce cva/traditions barrels, just have to have the experience/know how and in 17 years, Not once have I ever had the need to pull a breech plug on any sidelock. TC,Lyman, you name it.

[rfd]

bobby hoyt can servce cva/traditions barrels, just have to have the experience/know how and in 17 years, Not once have I ever had the need to pull a breech plug on any sidelock. TC,Lyman, you name it.

pulling the breech of ANY spanish trad ml does require special TOOLS, not knowledge. that is, if the barrel/breech don't git buggered in the process, which happened at least once by the "gunsmiths" at CVA on a 70's flint rifle they attempted to fix for me. point is, a trad ml should be serviceable by its owner, not by a gunsmith. these firearms are stupid simple, and the manufacturers who cut corners to make simple into complex in order to save production dollars or to satisfy corporate lawyers are those i'll avoid like the plague. ymmv, as it appears it do.

only a mere 17 years into TRAD ml's and you ain't seen the need to pull a plug, jon? wait'll you have 5+ decades with real TRAD smokepoles, not the offshore knockoffs.

[bradley.moss72]

Ok guys, This thread has turned into something that I really wasn't looking for. I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, but didn't muzzleloaders start in Europe? Aren't we as Americans making the "upstart knockoffs" of the originals, changing things on guns to meet our needs? Muzzleloaders weren't invented here, but in my opinion perfected here. Depending on your point of view, a "traditional" muzzleloader would come from Europe.

Now a traditional American muzzleloader would be a better description of what you are describing.

I agree there is no sense in making the muzzleloader more complex and should be no reason to remove the breech plug. Don't you think that might be why it is so hard to remove in those, because they were never meant to be removed and not designed that way? Does that really make it bad?

BW

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[rfd]

yes, the flint lock is purported to have been a french invention. for the most part, the production trad ml's on the market today are all offshore originated and are intended to be versions of american trad ml's from the 18th and 19th centuries. some are reasonably close, most are way off, all aren't perfect - but only IF being historical and period correct matters.

trad ml's made here in the states by american gun makers can be dead nuts accurate in design and materials. there are a few sorta semi-production companies, but there are far, far more individual gun makers and gunsmiths, all are craftspeople that make trad ml firearms that will put any offshore production trad ml firearm to shame. this is a fact and is what it is.

all onshore built trad ml's are made with respect to removing breech plugs, which are almost always correct flat faced and non-patent (flue) in design, and lubed with anti seize. for any breech plug or breech face maintenance, or dry balling issues, you will need to pull the breech plug. if the design and build is right, this is a simple thing to do with nothing more than a vise and a flat jawed wrench. the only offshore trad ml's i've been able to do this to, with the right tools and effort, are the investarms brand.

back in those bygone eras, your firearm was your life - for sustenance, protection and warfare - and there are folks these dayze who treat such modern versions in a near-like manner, and not something just dragged out for a fall hunt. these folks and their guns are the major part of their hobby - fun and match shooting, and possible reenacting, besides hunting.

however, if one's interest in trad ml's is on the great periphery of their gun usage, then a cheap offshore sorta-kinda trad ml with non-removable patent breech plug (ditto for a cap lock bolster) is absolutely the way to go with far less outlay of cash. bravo!

the point is that not everyone is into trad ml's for the same reason, and that's the way it should be. no one should be told there's no reason to pull a breech plug, nor told they absolutely must pull the plug. just depends on the above factors, and to know whether or not your trad ml can be home serviced. there ya go, do enjoy!

[bubba.50]

[QUOTE=rfd; only a mere 17 years into TRAD ml's and you ain't seen the need to pull a plug, jon? wait'll you have 5+ decades with real TRAD smokepoles, not the offshore knockoffs.[/QUOTE]


well I must be truly blessed. because I HAVE been foolin' with these things for over 45yrs & I too have never ever seen the need to pull a breechplug.

[rheagunman]

I am also lookin to get me a flintlock one of these days that's why i like reading all the pros & cons.

[waksupi]

I've been shooting them for over 40 years, and have NEVER had to pull a breechplug.

[bradley.moss72]

Here's the way I feel about it.

As an entry level prospect, any flintlock or percussion arm that functions as intended will let a person try muzzleloading, no matter where it is made
Sure it might not have all the nice features and it may not compare to the high end arms, but it will let you try things out. If you look at it from that point of view, that if you want better, better cost money and you can advance from there, that it is only meant to be what it is, a low price alternative, then things come into focus.

I never understood the mentality that if you didn't spend big bucks on something, that it wasn't worth getting. Yes you get what you pay for but if what your paying for is to try something without spending a fortune, I think that is kinda the point.

It would be kinda like buying your 15 year old kid a mint condition 1962 Corvette to learn to drive.

I think a '98 Toyota will do just fine.[emoji38]

BW

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[rfd]

Here's the way I feel about it.

As an entry level prospect, any flintlock or percussion arm that functions as intended will let a person try muzzleloading, no matter where it is made
Sure it might not have all the nice features and it may not compare to the high end arms, but it will let you try things out. If you look at it from that point of view, that if you want better, better cost money and you can advance from there, that it is only meant to be what it is, a low price alternative, then things come into focus.

I never understood the mentality that if you didn't spend big bucks on something, that it wasn't worth getting. Yes you get what you pay for but if what your paying for is to try something without spending a fortune, I think that is kinda the point.

It would be kinda like buying your 15 year old kid a mint condition 1962 Corvette to learn to drive.

I think a '98 Toyota will do just fine.[emoji38]

BW

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absolutely on the money, sir! :goodpost:

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

fancy wood grain & carving doesnt make a flintlock shoot any better :D And as i've said multiple times, my lower cost flinters spark just as good and are reliable in the field.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Don't you think that might be why it is so hard to remove in those, because they were never meant to be removed and not designed that way?


Exactly!