45 blackhawk help!!?!!!

[plinky56]

Hey all, been pullin' my hair out with a 2yr old, bought new 4 5/8" Ruger BH in 45 colt. Slugged @.451+. Bought an older lyman 454424 Keith swc mold and it's casting perfectly @.456, Lee sizer them down to .454 and shot them before anything done to gun. Use felix lube and it is really cool stuff for all my other boolits. Terrible groups @ 7-8" at 25 yds. Uniformed cylinder to .4545 and tried again-no joy. Put an 11 degree forcing cone on the barrel and fire lapped out with 320 with clover(like I do with other revolvers/rifles) and nothing better. Using cast wheel weights plus a little tin(use the same for my 7mm, 30-30, 357 44, etc) and unique from 7-9.5 in 1/2grain increments--no better grouping. Tried green dot, promo, 2400, and titegroup, from mild to wild, in increments, and all were trickled out...got it down to 5" with promo @ 6.5 grains. I get absolutely no leading, except with 2400 at the upper end and after 12 rounds. I'm an ex sihlouette shooter(20 years ago) using 44 blackhawks predominantly, and 325grainers and hard lead, have a small hobby mill and lathe, re-barell actions(ex bench rest guy too), do trigger/action work for sass friends and can still see fairly well enough get 1-2" groups with all my other revolvers. I can shoot heavy loads accurately enough, still, so I believe this is the guns' performance and not mine.

I've done many other things to this gun and really don't want to have to get rid of it and start over. Could this particular gun not like SWC and possibly shoot RNFP or another boolit well? I've only tried this one mold for this gun and heard that the lee 255grain RNFP works well in 45 colt. It's getting to be very consuming and i'm going to get this thing shooting well as long as my retirement holds out, which is 2-3" groups at 25 yds, consistently. Any help, suggestions, thoughts, remedies(and maybe even medications!) for an old guy before he goes BONKERS, will be very much appreciated.

[str8wal]

First things that come to mind are bad crown or thread choke. When you slugged the barrel you should have felt if there was any constriction at the frame junction. Perhaps it could be the bullet, but I don't think I've ever had a revolver that shot that poorly with any projectile.

[scattershot]

Try some jacketed bullets. Could be your rifling is too shallow for the real thing for some reason. That may give you some idea, anyway.

[plinky56]

Thanks for your replies. I re-crowned my muzzle when I cut the 11 degree forcing cone. I was thinking of getting some jacketed to try. The lands are still almost as high as stock. When I fire-lapped out my thread constriction, I compared the end result to the first, and can't really measure any difference. All were dug out of the dirt mound at the range and remelted. All my 44 mags' were better than this gun. I'd buy a few at a time, and see after working them, which would perform better and sell the rest, when shooting sihlouette.

[jonp]

I've had excellent luck with the lee mold your trying both with a ruger and an sw. You seem to be hitting all the bases. I'm going to go out on a limb but have you checked the sights on the gun? I had a blackhawk once that the rear moved back and forth on and it gave me fits until I figured it out

[plinky56]

I've never used the lee rnfp, only the 454242 swc. Was wondering if the rnfp could work better. I actually made a peep/aperture rear insert for all of my revolvers. Thanks for the rear sight thoughts. I'll play with it when I get home, though, and see if they are moving. Have you ever shot swc's out of yours?

[Dale53]

I have a Ruger SS Bisley .45 ACP/.45 Colt convertible with 5.5" barrel. When I took delivery it had undersize throats in both cylinders. It leaded terribly with the .45 Colt and I couldn't even load my cast bullet loads in the ACP. After reaming both cylinders with a Manson "made for the job" reamer kit complete with pilots to a uniform diameter of .4525", it totally transformed the revolver. Now, on demand it will do under 1" off a rest with either cylinder at 25 yards. I also did two friends' revolvers and had the same results.

I hope you are able to resolve your problems.

FWIW,
Dale53

[DougGuy]

Sounds like you have eliminated the obvious. How EVEN are the cylinder throats? This is the single most important part of the cylinder, throats that are of size enough to not swage down the boolit but are still uneven in diameter from throat to throat will shoot poor groups because the tighter throats recoil differently in the hands of the shooter.

Outside of this, I would be looking at the powder measure, seeing if it is throwing inconsistent charges. I got where I just weigh every charge on a digital scale it is not really that much more time consuming when you are trying to eliminate variables.

The Lee 255RF boolit is a match made in heaven to the 11 degree forcing cone. I find they shoot MUCH better than Keith type LSWC boolits for me.

Finally, alloy. 50/50+2% with soft lube takes to Ruger rifling and twist rate like a duck to water. I like mine so I can barely scratch them with a thumbnail and they work great. I get accuracy and never have to clean the bores.

[Tom W.]

I had one , a convertible with a 5.5 inch barrel. After a few years of frustration I found a boolit that worked. It was the RCBS 270 SAA with white label carnauba red lube.

[plinky56]

Thanks guys. I'm weighing out all my charges and trickling up to within a tenth. My throats are all cut with the same reamer and I pin gauged it and it's within .001 or less. I'm really thinking that it just may be the SWC type of boolits. Just may have to get another rnfp from lee to try that, though i've never experienced a gun shooting one type of boolit that much better/worse than what i'm getting.

[DougGuy]

Changed the trigger return spring? I favor the Wolff 30oz. spring. If you are a steel shooter I don't guess I have to ask about dry firing and the sights staying motionless? The Wolff spring makes this elementary exercise MUCH easier.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Try 9.5gr. of Unique with that Lyman boolit cast from straight clip on wheel weights. It's a hottie for anything less than a Blackhawk though.

[dubber123]

Put a bright white strip of paper between the cylinder and recoil shield and shine a bright light at it while looking down the bore, it's pretty easy to see any cylinder throat to barrel misalignment. I saw one once with pretty major misalignment on 3 chambers, it was a Ruger Security Six which never shot well no matter what I tried.

[plinky56]

Right after I got it, I slicked up the action. During that tear down, in the middle of a two day snow storm if I recall, I worked the trigger/sear, filed down the return spring, smoothed the original main spring, ground the pawl to make it 'free spin' and tapped the trigger for a set screw to adjust the over travel. I like to work my revolvers and make them work for me. Now you can see why I really want to find the key to making this one shoot. Put a lot of time into it to include a nice piece of 20 year old claro walnut from california I won off of ebay to make a set of custom eig type of grips. Figured this would be my last working gun for deer/home defense, etc. Never have I worked my own gun so much before and gotten so little return for it.

[376Steyr]

Try a different bullet mold. I have a bone-stock 45 Colt Vaquero that sprays SWC loads, and loves RNFP. I highly suspect your "older Lyman 454424" is the weak link in the chain.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Try 9.5gr. of Unique with that Lyman boolit cast from straight clip on wheel weights. It's a hottie for anything less than a Blackhawk though.
I own a dozen Colt's, my BH .45 outshoots them all with that boolit sized .454" over 8.5 gr of Unique. I cast wheelweigts water dropped and use Alox.
I'd be seeking a throat job from DougGuy.
Just one more thing about the BH's, for me I have to have the grips checkered.

[plinky56]

Anyone get a lee 90358 to drop at .453-.454? Never worked a lee mold to make them drop .003-.004 larger than stock. So, to y'all who beagle, is it feasible to actually open up a lee .452 mold to , say, .455 and size it down to be concentric, or am I asking too much and should just buy a more expensive lyman/rcbs. I'm getting tired of putting $$ into this gun.

[DougGuy]

Iirc there was a group buy for an improved version of the Lee 255 RF boolit. Might have some luck trying to find one of these.

[44man]

I don't own a gun now that will shoot a semi-wad cutter. Not even the best BFR's. The shoulder will not steer a cylinder. It gets worse if the cylinder is too tight with no play.
Next is the hammer spring, make it light and ignition goes down the drain. I use only 26# Wolfe hammer springs. Then the primer! Work with them. The WW seems good as is the Fed 150. No mags!
But I see crazy things. How do you file a coil trigger spring? just re-bend it. Why take throats to .4545"? With .451" groove you should use .452" boolits and .4525" throats.
How do you smooth a coil hammer spring?
I know a Ruger inside and out and it sounds like yours is not a Ruger.
I have a short chain to pull but it seems like you broke it. Nothing makes sense at all.
Now the rest of you fellas, do you not see it?

[Thumbcocker]

I feel our pain. I had a stainless bisley .45 colt .45acp that just sucked. Every combination of boolit and powder produced mediocre accuracy. The gun went back to Ruger twice. On the second trip back they kept it and sold me a .44 magnum at a much reduced cost. I tried a second Blackhawk convertible and it did ok with the acp cylinder but never did shoot as well as any .44 in the stable with the .45 colt cylinder. I love the idea of the .45 colt cartridge but in my experience the reality has never measured up. I fill the .45 colt standard pressure niche with .44 specials. Much better results with .44 special and .44 magnum. I feel that the .45 Colt is overbore and has a lot of space for the powder to slosh around in. Some folks have .45 Colt guns that do well for then but I am done with it.

[bdicki]

Send it back, I had one that shot like that and it turned out that there were voids in the barrel just below the rifling. I didn't show up until some high pressure loads were run through it. Some of them stripped the metal off so they looked like pitting others looked like a bubble. Sent it back and new barrel shoots fine.

[44man]

Not an answer to my questions. What parts does the OP talk about?
Nothing wrong with a .45 Colt at all and is as accurate as anything else. I have shot groups of 3/4" at 75 yards with opens from Creedmore and cast. Vaquero. Dropped a deer, neck shot at over 100 off hand. If you can't get a .45 to shoot, you can't get anything else to shoot either.
I had an argument once and grabbed my Vaquero, stuffed in 5 shots and shot this at 50 yards Creedmore.178883 A little vertical but a 335 gr LBT with 21.5 gr of 296.

[44man]

Notice the grips? Nobody ever got 6 shots off with the wood panels without pain. My loads are nasty.

[scattershot]

Just noticed that you reamed your throats to .4545. (Good catch, 44 man!) If that is indeed the case, your bullets may be UNDERsized for the throats. Shoot a few as cast and see what happens. It will probably get better, but then squeezing them back down again for a .451 bore may throw the accuracy off. .4525 is the proper throat diameter, hope you haven't ruined your pistol.

[DougGuy]

I feel our pain. I had a stainless bisley .45 colt .45acp that just sucked. Every combination of boolit and powder produced mediocre accuracy. The gun went back to Ruger twice. On the second trip back they kept it and sold me a .44 magnum at a much reduced cost. I tried a second Blackhawk convertible and it did ok with the acp cylinder but never did shoot as well as any .44 in the stable with the .45 colt cylinder. I love the idea of the .45 colt cartridge but in my experience the reality has never measured up. I fill the .45 colt standard pressure niche with .44 specials. Much better results with .44 special and .44 magnum. I feel that the .45 Colt is overbore and has a lot of space for the powder to slosh around in. Some folks have .45 Colt guns that do well for then but I am done with it.

This I am assuming was back before you heard of tight cylinder throats, which if the BH you had were factory throats, that would perfectly explain groups that looked like you were shooting a coach gun.

When the cylinder throats are properly dimensioned, and the forcing cone is not a collection of radially oriented tool marks, the .45 and .44 caliber revolvers will equal each other. When they both are configured correctly, neither will outdo the other.


.4525 is the proper throat diameter, hope you haven't ruined your pistol.

He ain't hurt nothing as long as the throats are EVEN. That's the biggest thing in a nutshell. My Uberti Old West has .4565" throats and a .451" barrel, I size to .456" and it works great. Accurate, no leading, never have to clean it.

[Thumbcocker]

Had the throats reamed before I sent it back. Still sucked.

[GSaltzman]

My Ruger Bisley has .455 throats. I size to that. Until I started using a 50/50 + 2% alloy accuracy was not very good. 454424 or the new NOE Keith slugs shoot very accurate in this gun. Also have had good results with an Accurate 310 grain slug. My easy shooting load is 20 grains of 4227. Wish you the best!

[white eagle]

Hey all, been pullin' my hair out with a 2yr old, bought new 4 5/8" Ruger BH in 45 colt. Slugged @.451+. Bought an older lyman 454424 Keith swc mold and it's casting perfectly @.456, Lee sizer them down to .454 and shot them before anything done to gun. Use felix lube and it is really cool stuff for all my other boolits. Terrible groups @ 7-8" at 25 yds. Uniformed cylinder to .4545 and tried again-no joy. Put an 11 degree forcing cone on the barrel and fire lapped out with 320 with clover(like I do with other revolvers/rifles) and nothing better. Using cast wheel weights plus a little tin(use the same for my 7mm, 30-30, 357 44, etc) and unique from 7-9.5 in 1/2grain increments--no better grouping. Tried green dot, promo, 2400, and titegroup, from mild to wild, in increments, and all were trickled out...got it down to 5" with promo @ 6.5 grains. I get absolutely no leading, except with 2400 at the upper end and after 12 rounds. I'm an ex sihlouette shooter(20 years ago) using 44 blackhawks predominantly, and 325grainers and hard lead, have a small hobby mill and lathe, re-barell actions(ex bench rest guy too), do trigger/action work for sass friends and can still see fairly well enough get 1-2" groups with all my other revolvers. I can shoot heavy loads accurately enough, still, so I believe this is the guns' performance and not mine.

I've done many other things to this gun and really don't want to have to get rid of it and start over. Could this particular gun not like SWC and possibly shoot RNFP or another boolit well? I've only tried this one mold for this gun and heard that the lee 255grain RNFP works well in 45 colt. It's getting to be very consuming and i'm going to get this thing shooting well as long as my retirement holds out, which is 2-3" groups at 25 yds, consistently. Any help, suggestions, thoughts, remedies(and maybe even medications!) for an old guy before he goes BONKERS, will be very much appreciated.

All I can say is best of luck on your journey
I had the same issues as you are having with 2 or 3 (can't recall for sure) 45 colt
Ruger Blackhawks,tried everything like you molds,cylinders,lapping different powders,primers
but just could not get decent accuracy.I switched to Ruger Blackhawks in 44 cal and have been having
much better luck and great accuracy

[GoodOlBoy]

Well this is a familiar song, let me throw my opinion in the ring. Number one, a two year old blackhawk probably has a barrel that is undersized so you are most likely looking at a .4515ish to .4525ish. Yes on an older blackhawk reaming all the cylinder throats to .4545 would have been advisable, but mainly because the bore on older blackhawks was closer to .454. That being said you haven't necessarily "ruined" the gun by reaming out the cylinder throats because at least now they are uniform. As for SWCs in 45 long colts I am about to get a bunch of people mad at me and get all kinds of hate for saying it but STOP trying to use SWCs in blackhawks in 45 long colt. I have only ever seen 1, that would group them accurately and that was my dads, and only in a 270gr .454 in a design very close to an actual Keith. My old blackhawk loved 250 to 255 grain .455 or .454 Round Nose Flap Point bullets, period. It didn't like lighter bullets, it didn't like jacketed bullets, it didn't like smaller diameter bullets. My carbine in 45 long colt will shoot 255gr swcs just fine for hunting (3" group at 50 yards), but if I put 250-255 rnfp in it the group drops to about 1.5" at the same distance if I am having a good day on the trigger. Honestly it outshoots me.

Now I am going to say something that may tick off the OP, and WILL tick off alot of other people. STOP. STOP "working" on your guns before you shoot the things! You CANNOT reliably put metal back, and I can't count the number of posts of people complaining that they "fixed" issues on a brand new gun and then found out "it didn't shoot". Shoot at least FIVE HUNDRED rounds through a gun before you start hacking away at them like a back alley surgeon! I don't care if you have "worked" on a hundred other guns just like it. Each gun is it's own critter, and until you know what it does and doesn't like and actually need the only thing you are doing is introducing alot of new random factors in the "why don't it group" chart.

When my blackhawk was brand new it shot a pie pan sized group at 25 yards no matter what I put through it. I was devastated, but I wanted to shoot up the ammo I had bought and get to reloading (20+ years ago). By the time I got to the 250th round I had settled down, and so had the gun. I had gone from a pie pan to a 4" group not counting an odd flier with every group. By the 400th round It was shooting a nice 2" group with one bad flier every single time if I did my part. Dad, and a buddy of his started helping me go over the gun, and his buddy had a cylinder reamer. The 6th chamber on the cylinder was actually throat-ed at .449ish.... Number 5 on the cylinder was .452ish, my bore is .454+-, and the rest of the cylinder throats were fine at .454+-. We had to ream the #5 and #6 chamber throat, and what do you know. Grouping nice and tight. In fact it shot better than I did. Dad could outshoot me with my own gun any day. Only problem to this day with that old blackhawk so long as I do my part is that the grip frame is warped and bites the ever loving crud out of you randomly every once in awhile. I thought it was the grips, but a grip maker checked it for me about a decade back and nope.. warped grip frame. Never had the money to fix it, so there it is. At least it shoots straight.

Anyway try RNFP, just buy a box from laser cast, missouri bullets, rim rock bullets, SOMEBODY in hard cast lead and try them over a nice mild load for awhile and see what you get.

Rant off.

God Bless, and One Love!

GoodOlBoy

[High Desert Hunter]

178948

20 rounds loaded with an RCBS 45-270SAA bullet and Longshot powder from a Ruger Flattop 45 at 25 yards. Was testing the powder which is why I didn't adjust for windage.

[plinky56]

Thanks for your insight on this problem. Had to work all day yesterday and couldn't wait to get online to read ur thoughts. My cylinder had 2 chambers at.450, 2 at .452 and 2 at .4535 as new. I have all the fun tools that go along with my mill and lathe and know how to measure correctly. I'm going to buy a lee 90358 and play with it to see what size it will shoot well. Had no choice other than to open them up to the minimum of .4545 and cut them all to that. All the boolits push through with the same felt finger pressure. According to 'Beartooh Bullets Tech Guide', page 49, the last para under revolver bullet fit, cylinder throats for bigger calibes(357-45) are better at around .002-.003 over groove diameter. My barrel is closer to .452 but larger than .451. This would put me into a .454-.455 boolit and that's why I did what I did--needed to open them up , uniformly, to the same min dia that I could get away with. A .451-.452 barrel has no problem shooting this much larger pill. Never hurt anything being that way on my .44's. I appreciate your info.

[plinky56]

Now, for 44man. I appreciated the first few sentences of your first post but after that you went downhill from there. Try re-reading my words. Never said anything about a 'coil trigger spring'. I filed down my return spring for the trigger in order to get the lighter feel I wanted. Also bent it like I do all the others I work on. Instead of buying new, I choose to file stock springs on one radius very slightly, which has worked for me for years. Also, the main spring, which is a coil type, is put in the lathe and 400grit is inserted in the id to help smooth it. Works better than just smoothing the hammer strut by itself. Then, because I was working yesterday you choose to be a smart ***, condescend and attack me or my abilities? I don't want your kind oppressive and aggressive comments on my post. Really a waste of my time. I prefer not to engage on this forum, so, kindly keep your comments to yourself, thanks you.

[DougGuy]

Had no choice other than to open them up to the minimum of .4545 and cut them all to that. All the boolits push through with the same felt finger pressure.

^^^^ THIS is the single most important thing for a cylinder, that ALL the throats are even with the others. It really doesn't matter WHAT the final OD of the throats are, so long as they are larger than groove diameter. It matters that they are ALL EVEN in diameter.

When I finish a cylinder and checking it with pin gages, I "feel" for the same resistance or light drag, in each throat. Before I had pin gages I used boolits. Same thing. You can also slug a bore and use the slug as a gage because at the very minimum, the slug that just came out of the bore SHOULD go into the front of the cylinder throats. If not, your cylinder is serving as a 6-port sizing die each time you shoot the gun.

The reason it is less important what size the throats are is that with magnum loads in 357, 41, 44, and 45 calibers, unless you are shooting BHN22 or harder, magnum pressures will cause the boolit to obturate until the walls of the throat stops it from getting any bigger. The pressure of ignition drives the base of the boolit hard enough that the sides begin to swell from the pressure and they will fill the cylinder throats and will exit the front of the cylinder at throat diameter. If you size greater than throat diameter, pressure forces the boolit through the throats and again they will leave the front of the cylinder at throat diameter. With softer alloys, obturation to throat diameter will happen at much lower pressures.

Uneven throats cause uneven pressure and uneven dwell time in the barrel which causes the gun to recoil differently in the hands of the shooter, and will cause POI to be spread out in an unsatisfactory manner. Evenly sized throats cause the recoil impulse to be more consistent from shot to shot and the gun will recoil more consistently in the hands, and will shoot much closer to the POA from shot to shot.

[44man]

Can I help if you confuse. I did not attack you at all, you were confusion with filing springs.
Since a coil spring is round and only touches in one spot, why sand it to a flatter contact on the strut, You still confuse. Same as filing a coil trigger spring.
Why in the world mess with a hammer strut? Best thing to do is buy a 26# over power variable Wolfe spring.
I eat Rugers and BFR's for breakfast.
If you don't think so, How do I get a SBH to a 1-1/2# trigger without a failure to fire? My BFR is 19 oz with sure ignition. If you are so good, explain how. You will NEVER do it.
Can you do this at 200 yards?178954 Can you do this at 100 yards? 178955
You do not know me so are forgiven. I will not say bad to you but you need to know I know the guns.
There are others here that have my respect and they respect me and even use my findings. I hit at 500 meters with revolvers (547 yards) Sorry nobody has made a SA shoot like I have.

[ironhead7544]

Hate to say this, but try the J-words.

You could try sizing the bullet a bit different. Dont size down the front band. Might work.

I had a 44 Special with 6.5" that would not shoot as well as I thought it should. I used the lead barrel slugs from Lead Bullet Technologies. These will go down the bore easily on a standard cleaning rod and will let you feel any restrictions. I found that the groove size was just right at the muzzle but about an inch down it got loose. It tightened up again about an inch before the frame. This revolver was made about 1926 so I did not know the history. It was a bit of a collectors item, so I decided not to do any alterations. Traded it off for a good deal to a collector.

Just for the heck of it, in your situation I would get the LBT slugs. They are cheap enough. Also, find someone with a range rod and check it.

[44man]

Understand I never shoot 25 yards for any reason. I start at 50 for settings and most shooting is 100 and 200. The .45 Colt is not a 7 yard gun. 25 is sad.
If you complain about me you also complain about my friends like Doug, Lloyd and many others.
I will never go to a Mod to toss anyone. You are new and are still stupid.
You came after me personally. I think it is because you do not know me. I am an old bastard with more experience then anyone and more testing EVER.
Bet if you came here to see, you would be a friend.
When you get to know all here with respect and how great they are, you might not be included.

[Mauser48]

Can I help if you confuse. I did not attack you at all, you were confusion with filing springs.
Since a coil spring is round and only touches in one spot, why sand it to a flatter contact on the strut, You still confuse. Same as filing a coil trigger spring.
Why in the world mess with a hammer strut? Best thing to do is buy a 26# over power variable Wolfe spring.
I eat Rugers and BFR's for breakfast.
If you don't think so, How do I get a SBH to a 1-1/2# trigger without a failure to fire? My BFR is 19 oz with sure ignition. If you are so good, explain how. You will NEVER do it.
Can you do this at 200 yards?178954 Can you do this at 100 yards? 178955
You do not know me so are forgiven. I will not say bad to you but you need to know I know the guns.
There are others here that have my respect and they respect me and even use my findings. I hit at 500 meters with revolvers (547 yards) Sorry nobody has made a SA shoot like I have.

You need to teach me how to shoot a single action. I can shoot rifles pretty darn good but don't really know how to shoot a handgun properly.

[44man]

I must have thousands of posts to look at but if you can't get them. I will do my darnedest to help.

[44man]

Make a trigger too light on a Ruger or BIG Ruger BFR. What do you do? I told you all.
I am the most neglected person on any site and have been tossed from so many it is crazy. I bucked the kings with their stupid and found I was tossed from sites not visited for 20 years. I have a reputation like no other. I sneak in the back door to read and see my stuff repeated by the Sperts. Gun writers hate me and I know some. I taught one to load, cast and shoot and did this with his gun at 50 yards.178964 But I hurt his feelings with truth.
I don't beat my drums for me but I really hate the wrong info spilled to you.
The number of revolver shooters that make them work is so small you can test 100 years.

[GoodOlBoy]

yeah I do have to agree that getting all of your cylinder throats to the same size is very important, especially believe that after what I went through with mine.

As for not shooting at 25 yards... I even start rifles at 25 yards on say a new mounted scope, etc. Because I can burn alot less ammo to get closer to where I am going to want point of aim at longer range. For me this works ALOT better than even bore sighting..

Anyway wasn't trying to be too harsh and realized I might have been, if I was I apologize. I hope you get it figured out and get to enjoy the heck out of the gun.

God Bless, and One Love.

GoodOlBoy

[Thumbcocker]

Plinky56:

I think we may have a generational thing going on here. .44man's generation often do not sugar coat things that they know from experience. My father is of that generation and I was 15 years old before I knew that my first name wasn't ******. Learned a lot form Dad but not always in the most caring method. .44 man has a tremendous amount of experience and says what he knows from real world testing and trial. Everything that I have tried that he has suggested has worked as advertised. He and I will never agree on the Bisley grip frame (I like it he doesn't) but you can take what he says works to the bank. I think a properly set up .45 Colt revolver should shoot as well as anything but I think there are many .45 Rugers that are not set up right. .44's seem to be either more forgiving or more often set up right. That is why I switched over. Good luck in your quest.

[44man]

I care for nothing else then to make all better shooters. I will not give out fluff and if it doesn't work, I will say so. I will rub some wrong but I tested. So much repeated that does not work.
My hardest time here is to not make enemies if wrong so I say things I do not mean. Sorry, true! I can dispute but like you all too much.
Let it be known that you are the best of the best and are my friends. New guys do not know me but I will spend hours and hours for everyone.

[44man]

How to get a light trigger on a Ruger or BFR? I have to tell you. If you lighten the trigger spring and the trigger kicks your finger, the gun is not safe. Hang fire or failure. What is wrong? Transfer bar is too short and drops off the firing pin or nicks it. I make my own transfer bars by hand from tool steel, harden and temper. They are longer to cover the pin. Takes fitting but the lightest trigger I can get will never fail.
Then I use over power hammer springs since primers must be STRUCK with a certain force. NEVER weaken a hammer spring. Rugers and BFR's need 26# but if a caliber takes rifle primers you need 28#.
You that weaken hammer springs or buy reduced are wrong. Need more sensitive primers and are wrong.
I know I asked Plinky56 but he would never know. More free info.
Cock the hammer and see how much the bar covers, half or less and leave the trigger spring strong.178993 This is proper.

[dubber123]

I must be lucky, most of mine are set to 2.5#, but a few are a "light" 1.75#, and all have the same transfer bar coverage as shown, using the factory bars. I regret passing on so many Ruger single actions over the years due to the horrible factory triggers. If I had known they could be fixed with nothing but time and no parts, I would own more now for sure.

[DougGuy]

If I had known they could be fixed with nothing but time and no parts, I would own more now for sure.

Bottom line is this: You *must* be able to dry fire the revolver and hold the sights motionless as the hammer falls. <<< THIS is mandatory if you ever hope to manage shooting a single action revolver regardless of make or caliber. This is the one and only GOAL that MUST be attained to be able to shoot a single action revolver with any degree of accuracy. Once this is mastered, you simply commit to memory your grip and finger pressure and pull motion on the trigger and do the same with live fire.

I do like and use and also recommend the Wolff 30oz. trigger return spring. Swap it in and save the factory spring in case the gun ever needs to go back to Ruger for repairs. If you HAD a nice trigger on it when it was sent back in, it won't be nice when you get it back..

The other thing that can be done inexpensively with the Ruger is to file down the pad on the hammer above the engagement notch ala David Bradshaw, this lessens the creep in the factory trigger yet still maintains a safe firearm unless someone goes too far. The top of the trigger is the sear and should NOT be touched or modified under any circumstances unless it is worn and rounded from use which at this point it should be replaced. The angle and sharp corner on the trigger must not be modified.

[44man]

I must be lucky, most of mine are set to 2.5#, but a few are a "light" 1.75#, and all have the same transfer bar coverage as shown, using the factory bars. I regret passing on so many Ruger single actions over the years due to the horrible factory triggers. If I had known they could be fixed with nothing but time and no parts, I would own more now for sure.
Yes I have seen some TB's that will work but average is too short. Most of my BFR's are OK but the 45-70 was too short. Seems to be no standard with them.

[SSGOldfart]

Try some jacketed bullets. Could be your rifling is too shallow for the real thing for some reason. That may give you some idea, anyway.
Try a good premium jacketed bullet over H110 or IMR 700x, your primers could be a issue too.

[dubber123]

I am curious if the OP checked what the dufus in post #13 mentioned.. If there is a problem there, no amount of internet wisdom will make his gun shoot :)

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Don't know if my pics got posted, but the pics are of targets shot 2 hand hold off hand at 25 yards with different Colt's SAA's and different powders, all SWC boolits I cast.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

179038

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The top (or left) 2 brown NRA targets -posting turned the image said ways are RCBS 45 270 SAA shot from my new Colt's black powder frame SAA. The white paper with the square is an old 3rd Gen .45 with 454424. The front sights have since been filed to bring the groups up to zero.

[plinky56]

I have a lee 255gr rnfp mold coming this weekend and hope to pour a small pile to test them out. Will let you know how it goes.

[SSGOldfart]

Good luck with it,keep us updated

[odfairfaxsub]

No offense to 44man but......when you meet him you finally realize he's not as gruff in person than he is on the forum. This guy is a freaking sage and legend on revolvers. He's not throwing **** and long legged stories. Never seen a guy shoot a golf ball at 100 yards in my life w a Dagon bfr revolver w a MOA red dot. This guy can shoot and I've seen it and he was really kind to me when I was flinching like a abused dog trying to shoot his cannons. Few things to know about him

don't talk reduced loads w magnum cartiges w him....he'll tell you buy a pellet gun or a 38special

understand that we may not know what the part is called but call it something else....he knows what the part is called, what it looks like, and has touched that part and gun if it's a bfr or a ruger and has made its opperation slick as glass

the guy has done things w open sights that only God himself would want to compete w him as that would be his equal in such a match

[44man]

Thanks friend. No I am not gruff unless bad info.
Little history about the TB. If you went to a national IHMSA shoot and they tested your trigger to see it kicked you could not shoot. State shoots did not test your gun. Mine would not be allowed in the nationals. Did I cheat with my TB? Maybe I did. Called production and no after market anything allowed. Never said home made. Did I do wrong when they allowed guns with better sights then a Ruger. Ruger started with the Micro sights but later we could not change since Ruger did not supply them. But you could use a Freedom or S&W with better sights. It was a contentious game with many upset.
So it was luck to get a good trigger on a Ruger but if the trigger kicked you were out. They did not understand the TB was key and not all were short.

[.45Cole]

454190 will tell you how it runs. PM me if you need some. Mine are BHN 10-12, .452, LBT blue

[1bluehorse]

I am curious if the OP checked what the dufus in post #13 mentioned.. If there is a problem there, no amount of internet wisdom will make his gun shoot :)


I note that you are the "dufus" you allude to... good one, :mrgreen: and a good point to address. You are correct in your assesment of the cylinder/barrel alignment. If that alignment is not correct the gun won't shoot. Been there with a 4in Redhawk. Ruger fixed it.

[Lloyd Smale]

been doing this a long time and have owned many 45 colt rugers. Heres what ive found. Very few of them will shoot 255 or lighter bullets extreamly well. Ive got one rcbs mold for a 255 that seems to do better then others (rcbs even made 3 different takes on this bullet) For the most part there twisted best for heavy bullets. A good 300-320 lfn pushed to about 1100-1200 fps is the sweet spot for factory ruger 45s. Another real good bullet to try is the rcbs 300 swcgc. It shoots well in every 45 cal handgun ive ever tried it in. This is the main reason I prefer 44s. they are much more flexible to load for. there easy to find good loads both in 250 grain and heavys and loaded light or heavy. Now I'm sure someones going to come along here and claim there 45 shoots great with a 255 and maybe it does but ive owned AT LEAST a dozen factory 45 rugers and at least a half a dozen custom rugers in 45 and have spent a lot of time handloading and a lot of money trying to make myself a liar. Truth be told that maybe 1 in 5 45 colt ruger will shoot as well as an average 44 mag ruger.

[DougGuy]

Truth be told that maybe 1 in 5 45 colt ruger will shoot as well as an average 44 mag ruger.

I'm gonna throw this out there, there ARE some physical differences between the two calibers. Some of it is engineered in, some of it is well, forced in, but the differences are there. There is the fact that a 1:16 twist rate for the .45, 1:20 for the .44 could be one factor, but I think the biggest culprit might be the fact that the barrels are the same size on the OD, which leaves the .44 and .41 and smaller barrels quite a bit thicker than the walls of the .45 barrel. We all know how Ruger likes to torque the barrels in to the frame hard enough to cause the threaded portion of the barrel at the frame to choke down, some moderate, some VERY severe, but hardly none escaped totally choke free. This is a LOT worse on the .45 caliber models because the barrels are thinner.

And there's also the horrid roll marked "Lawyer Warning" mashed so deeply into the barrel that you can look down the bore and see ridges on the inside behind the lines of text on the outside. THIS is also a lot worse on the .45 barrels, simply because they have the least amount of wall thickness of any of the Rugers.

I am going to suggest that what I stated in these two previous paragraphs have a LOT to do with why an experienced and knowledged caster and shooter such as Lloyd Smale can document poor performance in the .45 caliber revolvers as compared to the .44 which has the thicker barrel.

This only explains the maladys suffered by the barrels, and does not address the cylinder throats which again because they are the largest diameter throats of all the Rugers, the cylinder walls are thinner and there is less metal surrounding and in between chambers therefore any distortion or stress in the steel will be much more evident with the .45 cylinders than any other calibers.

And Lloyd, if I may ask, were you at the time aware of the tendency for the .45 caliber cylinders to be pretty much undersize in the throats across the board? Did you ever ream any of yours or measure them?

Reason I ask is that throat reaming wasn't really a well known fix for these until rather recently. The consensus USED to be size to fit the throats, and this was subscribed to and taught by many of the gun writers. Now, we pretty much know that if a revolver has tight throats, it will only shoot cast boolits but so good, regardless of what one sizes them to.

I have only to wonder how much better those revolvers would have been if the cylinders were correctly sized for cast boolits.

[Lloyd Smale]

reamed about all of them except the newer small framed 45s which are right from the factory. Personaly I think that plays into it a lot but was eliminated by me. My first guess is the difference in twist and a good friend that's forgot more about handguns then I know claims the rifling in at least the old larger framed ones was shallower and shaped a bit different then the 44s were. I will say though that ive had a lot less trouble with the newer small framed ones with milder colt level loads. don't know if they changed the twist or not. Never checked.

[DougGuy]

reamed about all of them except the newer small framed 45s which are right from the factory. Personaly I think that plays into it a lot but was eliminated by me. My first guess is the difference in twist and a good friend that's forgot more about handguns then I know claims the rifling in at least the old larger framed ones was shallower and shaped a bit different then the 44s were. I will say though that ive had a lot less trouble with the newer small framed ones with milder colt level loads. don't know if they changed the twist or not. Never checked.

They changed how they mark the warning on the barrel, no more ridges inside, they changed how they torque them to the frame, the ones that have been here at my shop have been flawless where the barrel meets the frame, and the rifling is smooth and devoid of tool marks. The forcing cones are nicer too.

The medium framed production since about 2012 or so have been IMO the best Ruger SA revolvers that they have EVER made.

I do get plenty of New Model cylinders in for reaming, they are better than the large framed ones but still none are over .451" that I have measured with pin gages.

Thanks for your response sir..

I liked my customers' New Models well enough that I had to get one for myself, picked out one off Armslist sight unseen, had 50 rounds through it, $400 well spent bucks, got it here the barrel is PERFECT! No choke at all, I have converted it to .45 Schofield and using the LBT 250gr WFN boolits it is remarkable in every way. I get a 250gr WFN to 1200fps with 21.5gr H110 and still below the 23,000psi limit.