Drop tube compression die or both?

[commando223]

I'm getting ready to start loading my first black powder cartridges today for my two Argentine Rolling Blocks. I wanted to know if I can just use the compression die that I have or would I need to use a drop tube first then use the die.

[JSnover]

Depends on your charge. A drop tube will only settle the powder. Compression is generally a good thing but may not be necessary if you don't have any empty space under the boolit. If the case is filled to the point where the boolit base will compress the powder I'd use a compression die before seating.

[country gent]

Alot depends on the how the powder charge fills the case. On some the powder charge is close to the case mouth making the case harder to handle with oput spilling powder. In this case the frop tube may help some. I use the compression die also. I drop charge and put in case thru a 3' drop tube, really not a big deal to do as the tube sits besides the measure and scales. Once the batch is charged I insert the first wad in all of the batch, and compress the charge to required depth for overall length with the bullet Im loading. Finding the right compression makes a big diffrence in fouling and accuracy.

[rfd]

it would be best if you include more info such as what bullet type, what lube, how will the bullet be seated, did you make up a dummy round to find the max OAL, will you crimp the bullet, what are you shooting at, etc, etc.

but from what you've said so far, and from my vantage point, the safe bet for you is do both. drop tube the bp so it best integrates in the case, then put in a wad, then compress slightly. at the very least, compression will assure no air space.

[Don McDowell]

Lot of variables that only the rifle and the target can answer. Sometimes simply drop tubing a powder charge will work , provided that doesn't let the bullet nose get deformed during the seating process. Somtimes when looking for the ultimate load you might end up drop tubing a bigger charge into the case and will need to use the compression die.
There are some instances of folks shooting good scores that simply dump the charge into the case and then compress...

[Lead pot]

I pretty much quite using my drop tube unless I just use the Lyman 55 type powder drop. For that I have a 38" tube that sits on the case held in the loading block on the floor and the funnel is just under the powder drop. The tubes are made with type K 3/8 OD copper refrigeration tubing with a 5/8 OD X 3/8 OD sweat reducer that fits the .40 through 50 cases. When I use the electronic powder measures for my match loads ( I really don't know why ) I use a short 6" drop tube and slow drop the powder and tap the funnel rim with the powder pan and that settles the powder better then the long tube. With you just starting to load black powder it's best you try different ways and pick the one that works best.
One thing I will say that will shorten your load developments and that is use a what I call ladder loads. This is starting with no compression to depending the powder used. Swiss or the Olde Eynsford usually don't need much compression. They both also work well with heavy compressed loads but usually both powders will work just fine with something less then .250". You can load two or three rounds with 1 grain intervals, like 60-61-62 gr and so on. Doing this you will see the group start to shrink. The best group you can verify with a 5 shot group using the same load and fine tune it from there.
Just because some ones load works with say .200" compression don't mean it will shoot just as good in your rifle. This is something you will have to look for yourself. Bullet choice and design is probably the hardest to match with your rifle for the type of shooting you want to do.
Keep it simple and you will get it going faster. :) ......Kurt

[ascast]

Full sizing can be an issue as well. Decide before hand whether to full size or not. I'm guessing "NOT" is the better option. Just be aware that switching to or from full sizing can really mess up all that "perfect compression" data.

[rfd]

lotta good ways - and maybe not so good ways - to skin the bpcr loading cat. it's probably best to have a game plan for the loading route to take with the end goal in mind, which for some is killing critters and others killing paper or steel. or all of those things.

i don't like to work the brass, so fire forming is the way to go for me. that means loading is ridiculously easy and fool proof for an old fool like me.

and there is no substitute for experimentation as there are so many variables to guns 'n' loads, just make one change at a time and evaluate.

[montana_charlie]

I'm still using both, but I haven't moved on to Step 3, yet, because I had to go back to Step 2.

I don't shoot often, but I try to stay organized in order to keep track of progress.
It turned out that most of my 2015 shooting was invalid due to eyesight going bad and me not knowing it.
This year I haven't shot any to speak of as I have been getting the eyes fixed.
Due to the setback, I have to retest loads to see what I want to choose as my 'best load' for small groups.

But, when doing the initial load workup I got the best ES and SD numbers when I shot loads that had been droptubed ... then compressed.

I don't know if that will hold up as a 'benefit', but after I get a few loads that I trust, I will start using the chronograph to see if droptubing still seems useful.

I won't be sorry to cut that out of my routine if it proves to be ineffectual.

[Chill Wills]

For match ammo I load Swiss powder exclusively. I only drop tube it into the case. Never any compression. Droptubing takes zero extra time. My routine is setup so that weighing and putting powder into the case is a smooth operation.
Having a first class industrial scale is really the keystone to speed. I load way too many hundreds of rounds of match BPCR ammo every month to not have a routine I am happy with and that works for me.

We are not all the same. What I do and like may not work well for you nor even make you happy.:drinks:

If you shoot powders that you believe need compression you will have steps some of us do not take.

[Knarley]

I do both. The reason is not real scientific, but it works for me. I drop tube first, so on the way to the compression die, I don't dump any powder out. It also helps make a little room to place the wad in before I compress it. So that's why I do it, like I said not too technical, but it helps me keep the loads a little more consistant.

[rfd]

no question that besides compacting the kernals, drop tubing or vibrating the case will get more powder in, too.

[kokomokid]

Chill, What kind of scale and powder measure? I am always looking for a better way.

[country gent]

Im using a Belding and Mull powder measure for several reasons, its from the era or close to it for BP use, I load for several rifles and its easy to make measure tubes as needed to have them sitting there pre set and ready to go. They are easy to change powders over when going to diffrent granulations brands. I have been thinking about a harrels BP measure some latley though.

[Gunlaker]

Country Gent, I have a Harrel's Precision BP measure and like it a lot. However I don't use it as much as I used to as this year I bought an MVA measure from Shiloh that I like even more than the Harrel's.

With respect to the original poster's question, I drop tube and then use a compression die. I always have at least a very small ( 0.050" ) amount of compression, just to ensure that my wad is sitting at the same depth in each case.

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

Chill, What kind of scale and powder measure? I am always looking for a better way.

kokomokid,
I use a very large, maybe 20-25 pounds, Denver Instrument scale (Answorth) Not inexpensive but I have zero trouble with it and I use it all the time so I can justify the cost. I have had it about 20 years and loaded tens of thousands, maybe over a hundred thousands - nah, well.... maybe I have. It has only been turned off a few times in all these years. They are designed to be on and work well left on.

I use either one of two Lyman measures that I have refitted with large brass hoppers. I keep them tuned and in the high, dry, mountain air, they give little trouble. I also do not adjust powder charges but rather go with a range of drops within my tolerance. Rarely do they miss the drop outside the window target weight +/- one tenth. If I do get an outlier, I just dump it back in the hopper and throw another.

I can't see any difference on the target from three tenths spread to exact.

What are you using?

[kokomokid]

I tried a Pact electronic but it kept drifting as I used it. I now drop just under weight with a Redding brass hopper and trickle up to exact weight before drop tube. Yep slow and boring.

[martinibelgian]

Argentine rolling blocks, probably the original cartridge. I' d suggest just throwing the charge in the case - that'll be already more than enough powder....

[DHDeal]

I'll admit I probably do stuff the hard way, but I use both drop tube (24") and a compression die after I weigh charges with a GOOD scale (Sartorious magnetic restoration). I know my numbers from the Oehler say what I'm doing looks good on paper and the target says the same.

My caveat is that I don't shoot more than a few hundred of rounds per year. Less than a thousand for sure in the BPCTR's, so I don't worry about any extra time I take.

[Chill Wills]

My caveat is that I don't shoot more than a few hundred of rounds per year. Less than a thousand for sure in the BPCTR's, so I don't worry about any extra time I take.
It makes sense to me. You have to believe in the quality of the ammo you are shooting to do your best.

[Chill Wills]

Once the batch is charged I insert the first wad in all of the batch, and compress the charge to required depth for overall length with the bullet Im loading. Finding the right compression makes a big diffrence in fouling and accuracy.

This is a key point for loading match ammo in my mind. I only shoot Swiss powder at this time in match ammo. I shoot other powders for other applications. Accuracy and lack of fouling with Swiss is the reason. I have found that basically no compression and a mild primer can produce a good accurate load with the most manageable fouling. As an example, yesterday was out local BPCR silhouette day. Weather was a mild fall day and we shot under the sky with our barrels in the sun. It got into the low 70's F with light winds blowing harder by match end.

Silhouette target distance in meters - for yards add about 10%
Chickens 200 m (219-y)
Pigs 300 m
Turkeys 385 m
Rams 500 m
I shot the whole 40 shot match starting with pigs without wiping. With sighters, this match was a total of 58 shots, all using a few breaths on the blow tube between each shot. Accuracy never varies. After 14 or 15 shots at one stage the rifle sits for maybe an hour and then up to the line again. With a few breaths to start off, you are good to shoot the next stage with accuracy.
Due to my own error I missed one target each on Pigs, then Turkeys and Rams for a score (9-9-9) 27 going into the offhand stage Chickens. Accuracy is so good you and your spotter can move the group around on the target.

At the end of the match I checked the barrel for hard fouling by putting 5-6 long easy breaths into the barrel with the blow tube and then wiping with a dry cotton patch. The barrel sounds squeaky when do this.

For me, this level of performance does not happen with a compressed load and for sure not with Graf, KIK, Schuetzen nor the current ( last 15-20 years) GOEX and though I am hopeful, has not come together with Olde Eynsford. However, with my remaining FFg OE, I hope to give it a better look.

Compression, or lack of it, powder choice and primer choice are the three big deals as far as I am concerned.

So, rather than compress the powder with the wad, I place the wad about 1/8" into the mouth of the case and seat the bullet pushing the wad down to the top of the powder charge.
Load density; If that case is 98% full under the bullet, 100%, or 102%, it maters not. Just find the accuracy spot.

I very much agree; "Finding the right compression makes a big diffrence in fouling and accuracy." and I would add powder choice too.

[kokomokid]

You likely have a pretty good lube as well as alloy mix also?

[Chill Wills]

You likely have a pretty good lube as well as alloy mix also?

Nothing too unusual. Eagle BP lube, it is as good as any out there but it is NOT a magic lube, none are! And, because I shoot more than one design bullet in this rifle for matches I actually use two different alloys. One alloy for chicken and Pig bullets and the other for turkey and ram bullets. What ever happened to keep it simple?:roll:

I only do this silly stuff with my 45-70 at this time. I have a chicken bullet, a turkey and ram bullet and as of three years ago started using a slowed down (Velocity) pig bullet.

I have limited supply of COWWs in which to make my long nosed turkey and ram bullets out of so I don't use it for the blunt bullets. It is about, educated guessing here, 97-1.25-1.75 Pb-Sn-Sb. The alloy casts and ages to a little harder then 16-1 Lead-Tin. By trial and error I have found this alloy works well to support long nose bullets from slumping and playing H... with an otherwise accurate load.

My chicken and pig alloy is nothing more than BPCR berm range scrap. It Was BP bullets once and so it becomes BPCR bullets again. It casts close to 20-1 on my hardness tester. I have a lot of that alloy because when I repair the berms I salvage the lead. I batch 200+ pounds of that alloy at a time so the hardness is fairly consistent.

I cast the Hoch 440gr bullet for chicken shooting and as I said I went to a different bullet for pigs about three years ago. I improved my average pig score a pig a match by slowing down the load using a bullet that takes up 10 more grains space in my 45-70 case. For the pig targets only, I stopped using the Paul Jones Money Bullet and went to the Paul Jones Creedmoor bullet - the blunter version - he has two. ...or did when he was in business. It casts 560 grains. With 63.5 grs of powder recoil is just a big slow push.
My ram load is 73.5 grains of Swiss 2F and my new pig load is 63.5 grains of the same. I stopped having high/lows with this slower load and the funny thing is the fast 73.5grn Money Bullet load shows nothing of the problems on T and R that I fought on pigs - same load. ????who knows????

-Michael

[kokomokid]

Michael, What is the sprue plate number on the 560 gr Jones mould ?

[Chill Wills]

Paul Jones
45-70

I think I have other 45 molds from him with the same marking.
Other PJ molds I have show different markings too so I am not sure the top plate is always the last word.
Honestly - you may know more about this than I.