Alloys in 35cal rifles

[belus]

Hi everyone. I'm new to the forum and new to casting but I've been reading a great deal but have a couple remaining questions. Casting is a relatively new interest but I know some basics from studying metallurgy in undergrad.

I've bought myself a bolt action 358 winchester with 22" barrel and a couple molds: Saeco 352, RCBS 35-200, and Lyman 358315. I have Varget on hand from other reloading and want to start with that powder as it seems to work in 358win based on other forum posts. I'm hoping to push the 200 grainers up to 2400fps, and the Saeco to 2200fps. Hogdon claims both of these should be in reach with 45-47gr of Varget at 45kpsi of pressure. I chose all of this to build a 200yd hunting rifle for the western states (blacktail, whitetail, mule deer, maybe elk) and have these ambitious muzzle velocity goals so I can ensure an impact velocity north of 1800fps at 200yds since the GCs on these bullets are in the low 0.2s.

One thing I can't get a straight answer on is how hard I want the alloy to be. Lee's Modern Reloading has a whole chapter on not exceeding the bullet yield strength in chamber pressure and implies I need a bullet north of 30 BHN to hit these velocities. Ken Easterling at lasc.us says I need to exceed bullet yield strength in chamber pressure in order to deform it into the rifling for a good seal. Further, Mr Easterling mentions that if I want the bullet to deform at a 1800fps impact velocity it needs to be softer than 15 BHN.

One of these sources is incorrect and I'd appreciate some clarification and evidence one way or the other. How soft of a lubed/gc bullet can I get to 2400fps? How hard of a bullet still deforms at 1800fps?

Also, I know that toughness is not hardness and I've read to keep antimony under 5-6% so as not to make bullets too brittle for these velocities at shorter ranges. Unfortunately a lot of alloy advice I've found for casting has handgun velocities and pressures in mind and doesn't speak to the 35kpsi+ or 2000fps+ rifle cartridges.

[Beerd]

.358 Win is a real good choice for what you want to do.

There are a couple of stickies at the top of this hunting forum that should answer a lot of your questions about velocity & bullet hardness.
..

[runfiverun]

agree read the sticky's.
one deals specifically with the 358.
never mind what LEE say's he is talking about the alloy flowing at certain pressures and doesn't really affect what we are doing [at least I hope so or I need to scrap all of my rifle loads and alloy's and start over again]

soft and fast works pretty well until it get's to the target.
read Goodsteel's sticky above you will see right off how that doesn't work.

[belus]

Thanks guys. I have read the stickies and their general advice is what sold me on slower heavier lead bullets in something like the 358win to reduce meat damage. Indulging my casting interest helped seal that deal too. I like being able to tap into the accumulated experience here.

Before perusing this forum I was interested in a fast 6.5 or 7mm. 280AI or even a 6.5 Gibbs were part of my search.

I'm comfortable with jacketed load development from some time with NRA Service Rifle and understand there's a couple extra variables in lube composition and bullet size relative to bore diameter when casting. The part I don't have any intuition for is where to start on alloy composition and potential heat treating. I'd like to find a couple pet recipes that can handle these velocities (or talk me out of needing to maintain 1800fps at 200yds) without blowing up like Goodsteel's example.

So far:
50/50 wheel weight cut by pure lead is too soft to hit at 1800 with the flat points of my RCBS 35-200 or Saeco 352. I'll have to test that composition on some water jugs in the Lyman 358315 if the mold/alloy proves accurate enough.

Riverrun, you posted some nice detail in that thread here (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world&p=1933865&viewfull=1#post1933865).

--

(editing some notes to myself and potential future searchers on this question)

9 BHN at 2200-2400fps mv claim (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world&p=2333294&viewfull=1#post2333294) which is a point against Lee.

Goodsteel's alloy was 98.5% lead, 1.5% antimony, and no tin. (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172689-I-believe-the-cast-lead-rifle-boolit-is-the-most-effective-projectile-in-the-world&p=2710761&viewfull=1#post2710761)

[leftiye]

Add tin, (some add copper too) to toughen (make alloy not fragment) alloy. Tin will alloy up to 10%. Hardness alone may (will probly) help with accuracy, but hard alloys tend to fragment rather than expand well. Higher velocities at impact tend to do a lot of bloodshotting and massive damage.

[Smoke4320]

If you can find hi speed babbit (it will have a very slight gold color) this will do nicely for your faster 2000fps+ bullets as it has the tin and copper already.
Add 2% to you wheel weights and you have a great alloy
Gas checks and pc you are go to to

[runfiverun]

and roto-metals sells super-tough which has copper in it.
their super-hard is highly antimony enriched.

as you look at Waksupi's, 357- Max's, mine, and Tim's [Goodsteels] comments you have to take some of our comments to each other with a little tongue in cheek attitude. [we know each other real well and get to poking at one another from time to time]
they all have good information, you just need to apply what's there to your situation.

[TXGunNut]

Welcome to the forum!
I hunt with the 35 Remington and 35 Whelen, for some reason both rifles seem to prefer a harder alloy so I HT a fairly soft alloy (50/50 wheelweight/pure plus a bit of tin) for a tough, accurate boolit. I suspect my boolits deform little as they generally exit and leave me with a dead critter and an exit hole a little bigger than the entrance. It's my humble opinion that a .35 boolit doesn't need to deform much in a critter to drop it cleanly.

[hc18flyer]

Well I cast my hunting boolets in 358 win and 8 x 57 today. I decided to go 2/3 coww to 1/3 soww + 1 1/2 % tin. I water dropped some and air cooled the others. My 358 mold is a NOE 36-230 wfn ( mean lookin) and a Accurate 33-205 fp (smaller meplat) for the 8mm Mauser. I have them all sized and checked too. Hope I get a chance to try both this Fall on NE whitetail. I will likely start with the 36-230 water dropped and the air cooled 8 x 57, since it has a smaller meplat, pushed to 1900ish. It was a crappy, damp day, so I did a bunch of casting and sizing. Flyer

[hc18flyer]

It was pretty interesting. Very similar aluminum molds. The Accurate is a three banger and I could slow down, while the NOE 36-230 is 2 cavity and I really had to move quickly, and run my pot at a higher temp to get good fill out. I also cast some LEE 324-175 from a 2 cavity mold, and I could take my time there too. Flyer

[Blammer]

96/2/2 and water drop, you should be able to shoot that to about 2500fps out of a 35Whelen. Make sure your lube is good and the bullet fits.

It works for me. :)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/2016%20Deer%20and%20hog/KIMG0054_zpshfaihctq.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/2016%20Deer%20and%20hog/KIMG0054_zpshfaihctq.jpg.html)

[Harter66]

Here's a group from a Santa Barbara 98 with a 22" bbl 1-14.
The bullet was a 35-250 FN cast of WW . I tried 4198 and H322 with speeds in the mid 23-2450s . The recoil was sufficient to unlatch the floor plate with an inside the bow release but not violent . The group below was over a near full case of IMR 4350 for 2120 fps .

178941

I have 35 cal moulds from 88-230 gr with the Lee 6C 359-200 and NOE 360-228 being specific to the rifle . I actually find it as far as some of my efforts have gone to be a very easy cartridge to have success .
Vulcan aluminum checks for those counting . The pulled shot was all me .

[white eagle]

22 gr. 2400 with 16/1 alloy lays them flat
no need to push them fast
260 gr. Mountain Mold in my 358 win.179168

[jhalcott]

I use straight wheel weight alloy (bhn ~12) in my .358JDJ handgun and 35 whelen rifle. Speeds of near 2100 fps are easy to reach and exceed. I do not think I need more speed as accuracy begins to fall off above 2200+ fps. I use 200 grain cast or jacketed in these guns. I use the same boolits in my .35 rem. Contender (14") but at about 15/1600 fps and get pass thrus out to about 100 yards. I tried water dropping from the mold, but results were not much different from air cooled. A hole thru the lungs and out the off side. The deer was only about 30 yards from where it was shot. One deer went about 50 yards DOWN HILL, a steep hill at that!

[35Whelen]

White Eagle.....what velocity are you getting with the 2400 load. I was out at the range the other day on a quick trip to get sighted in. Foundd 25 grains of 2400 for the 360-240A sized at .359 was quite accurate....didn't have time to do the Chronograph though....

[JDL]

My 22 inch barrel gave me 1908 fps with a Mountain Mold 225 grain using 23 grains of 2400. I would expect your load to produce at least that speed.

[dragon813gt]

96/2/2 and water drop, you should be able to shoot that to about 2500fps out of a 35Whelen. Make sure your lube is good and the bullet fits.

It works for me. :)


Same here, except mine are 358 Win/35 Rem and not quite as fast. I used to make the alloy myself but bought foundry certified the last go around. For higher velocities White Label's 2500+ works great.

[35Whelen]

Thanks JDL.......I was thinking it would be close to 2000 fps. At any rate it was very pleasant to shoot. I also did up some hunting loads a bit stiffer using 38 grains of H4895 under that 240A boolit. Again don't know the velocity, but there was definitely a difference in blast and recoil. Tolerable for sure, but sure had some smack at the receiving end...you could hear the impact at the target butt....a real whap !!!

[white eagle]

not sure of velocity
but it really does a good job on whitetails

[white eagle]

the velocity averaged 1744 fps out of my gun
win model 70 Pac-Nor barrel @ 21"

[ammohead]

Here's a group from a Santa Barbara 98 with a 22" bbl 1-14.
The bullet was a 35-250 FN cast of WW . I tried 4198 and H322 with speeds in the mid 23-2450s . The recoil was sufficient to unlatch the floor plate with an inside the bow release but not violent . The group below was over a near full case of IMR 4350 for 2120 fps .

178941

I have 35 cal moulds from 88-230 gr with the Lee 6C 359-200 and NOE 360-228 being specific to the rifle . I actually find it as far as some of my efforts have gone to be a very easy cartridge to have success .
Vulcan aluminum checks for those counting . The pulled shot was all me .

I remember that day. We must do that again! Maybe more people can make it this time.

[44man]

I have big problems with boolits too hard. They are the most accurate but can fail. Too fast or heavy can make a hole punch, sharp stick.
If you can shoot softer, go for it. I am thinking 75 COWW with 25 pure and maybe a tad of tin. 50-50 with a GC might be better if it is accurate.
I have found casting a soft nose does best for me having hard drive bands but some expansion.
I am still learning and screwed up this doe season, have to post my failure. You would think with hundreds of cast boolit deer I would have gotten smart but I failed.

[Harter66]

I remember that day. We must do that again! Maybe more people can make it this time.

This spring will be my last 1 unless I should hit a lottery . I hope we have a good turnout also .