444 Marlin in the BFR 10" barrel.

[Ramjet-SS]

I cast up a batch of 275 grain GC RF from an excellent Accurate mould. Sized to .432" and loaded over a heathy dose of IMR4198 42.0 grains. The average velocity from the 10" gun was 1832 FPS. The big BFR handles the recoil well. I did not scope this gun up as I wanted it specifically for close cover and bad weather hunting. This load hits with authority and is accurate from this gun. Very impressed with the triple 4 BFR.

[Lloyd Smale]

my guess is your going to get more reliable bullet performance at 1300 fps then you are at 1800 using cast bullets. Especially at close range.

[Ramjet-SS]

So you saying I am going to get allot of bloodshot meat at that velocity?

[Earlwb]

That is throwing the bullets downrange really well. I think how much blood shot meat you get depends on where the animal is shot. But t 1800 fps it ought to drop them where they stand.

I would think that there may be a problem with leading up the bore at the higher velocities. You could go with gas checks on the bullets and that should help. If I remember right, firing lead bullets at some speed over 1600 FPS is where the leading problem starts to occur. There are a lot of factors though. It depends on the alloy used, bullet lube, bullet design, rifling twist rate, etc. Some guys can get around 2000 fps whereas someone else may not get near that speed. In my experiences, as the velocity increases, you hit a point where accuracy starts to suffer, if you tried to make the bullets go faster then the leading starts. So I used to increase the bullet velocities until accuracy started getting worse and then backed off to where it was still accurate. That became the load to use.

[lar45]

Sounds like a real beast.
I'm a big fan of the BFRs.
enjoy :)

[GhostHawk]

Different strokes for different folks. I load my .444 handi rifle with .430 310 gr with gas checks over 13 grains of Red Dot.
Even with the light load about 10 shots and I put it away for 6 months to a year. That load will print cloverleafs at 100 if I can do my part.

It is a balancing act I think. Faster = easier to shoot straight longer distance. Slower = less recoil, chances are that boolit is still going to go straight through unless that critter has a blacksmiths anvil in its chest.

With big bore + flat nose you don't need much expansion And I suspect your BFR will give you DRT's as long as you can hit them in the right spot.

Not my idea of fun, but if it is yours enjoy!

[Ramjet-SS]

That is throwing the bullets downrange really well. I think how much blood shot meat you get depends on where the animal is shot. But t 1800 fps it ought to drop them where they stand.

I would think that there may be a problem with leading up the bore at the higher velocities. You could go with gas checks on the bullets and that should help. If I remember right, firing lead bullets at some speed over 1600 FPS is where the leading problem starts to occur. There are a lot of factors though. It depends on the alloy used, bullet lube, bullet design, rifling twist rate, etc. Some guys can get around 2000 fps whereas someone else may not get near that speed. In my experiences, as the velocity increases, you hit a point where accuracy starts to suffer, if you tried to make the bullets go faster then the leading starts. So I used to increase the bullet velocities until accuracy started getting worse and then backed off to where it was still accurate. That became the load to use.


No leading issues with this alloy and the bore fit is perfect. The BFR 444 is a 1:16 twist. I shoot the boiler room and my expereince is bang flop with this profile bullet at higher velocities. I have 375 GNR #2 and run an Accurate Mould WFN GC 245 grain to 2200 FPS all the deer I shot with that gun dropped within 30 yards. Honestly the 480 Ruger I have a Mihec mould that is a GC HP I run that bullet around 1000 FPS any higher and the damage is terrible. I just aquired a .377 Mihec 375 GC HP in the 375 GNR and GNR#2 I will run lower velocities just because the bullet upsets and expansion just gets it done. I get what Lloyd is saying I think he does allot 475 shooting and those bullets are very wide nose at moderate velocities makes good sense and will take even Elk. I know I have done with John Linebaugh custom revolver 420 grain WFN at 1000 FPS. that elk ran 50 yards and piled up. It's all allot of fun and this gun is for higher velocity than the 44 mag or 445 super mag.

[INTRLOPER]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPz21cDK7dg

The masochists theme song.

[Lloyd Smale]

like was said bloodshot meat is mostly due to poor bullet placement. Put it behind the shoulder in the ribs and you wont loose much meat. My point is a cast bullets forte is penetration. Pass through shots and long wound channels and the ability to put a bullet in the vitals from about any angle. Push a cast bullet much faster then 1300 fps and no matter what alloy you have its going to deform (expand) That will not only effect penetration but will cause a bullet to veer off course inside an animal and you loose the ability to put a raking shot into the vitals. Now if you can be absolutely assured that you will only get a perfect broadside shot youll be fine. Ive killed a lot of deer with cast bullets and have seen very little difference even on broadside shots between a 1200 fps load and a 1500 fps load and have had some problems with loads like you have that push over 1800 fps. Again your probably ok for deer but id back those speeds off for anything larger. Ive shot 1000lb cow buffalo with cast bullets at 1200fps and got complete penetration and have even seen complete length wise penetration. I also shot them one year with a 500 linebaugh using hp cast bullets and it failed miserably. Load was pushing a 400 grain bullet to 1400 fps and they were completely coming apart only 6 inches into the animal. I know that's an extreme example but the point to it is that with cast bullets PENETRATION IS YOUR #1 CONSERN. Velocity buys you very little and can be detrimental if you go to far with it.
So you saying I am going to get allot of bloodshot meat at that velocity?

[Ramjet-SS]

I owe you an apology Lloyd I knew what you were saying I was being glib. That bullet will penetrate straight and pass through four deer if they are lined up. I get what you are saying but I bought this gun drive the heavy bullet faster otherwise I might just stay with a 44 mag or 445. This bullet and gun will cleanly and effectively take anything up to and including moose. As I said its fun to shoot and run these big cast slugs through 48" of water soaked newspaper just like my Linebaugh. I am not a huge fan of recoil anymore but we should have one of those guns that gets everyone's attention at the gun range ��. For milder shooting cast I have turned to the GC HP they work fantastic just as the Lyman Devstator at low velocities. For this gun 275 grain LFN at 1800 plus FPS and it will work well.

[Lloyd Smale]

I own and shoot two 444s and like them but truthfully on game there really not superior to the 44 mag out of a rifle if your using cast. Only advantage I see to pushing those bullets that fast is maybe increasing your range by another 50-100 yards due to slightly flatter trajectory. My idea of the ideal 444 bullet is a ballistic cast mold I have that casts a 340 lfngc. Its a good flyer at long range and penetrates like theres no tomorrow. I push it about 1500 fps out of my guns and even that might be a tad fast. As with about any cast bullet scenario heavier and slower always do better then lighter and faster. Now I'm talking big animals here. About anything will kill a whitetail. If you like the linebaughs you'd probably really like my little 17 inch 94 marlin that rob applegate built me. I've shot a couple cow buffalo with that gun using a 400 lfn at about 1400fps. What it about will give you with top end loads is 475 maximum power out of a standard case. Like you ive tired of handgun recoil a bit in my old age and my 500 and 475 handguns get heavy bullets at 1100fps anymore.

[44man]

You should listen to Lloyd. Maybe you should listen to me but I am last in line anyway. I post results and it stops right there. I have thousands of posts that just stop. Nobody can answer. Am I neglected or proven wrong? No, Most means I am correct and nobody can dispute with facts.
I am not going to get into the .444 stuff because I don't have one and my knowledge is Zip.

[Ramjet-SS]

I absolutely hear you Lloyd and agree but as I said that 444 is for fun and the Big Bang thing. Honestly there are many better calibers and guns to tote around the woods of NE Wisconsin than the big 10" BFR. I have an XP100 chambered in 240 Raptor no recoil at all and drops deer where they stand and will punch one ragged hole if I do my part. So yes just as you said.

Today I ran a bunch of different bullets through wet news print. The big 444 did some impressive damage but stopped short and as you eluded expanded. This compared to the same bullet shot from my Ruger Back Packer 44 at 900 FPS it got full penetration stopped with nose peeking out the 2x10 backstop of my newsprint holder. Now the 380 grain GC HP from my 480 Ruger Legacy Lever action was the most destructive and drove to the 2x10 this bullet needs to be slowed down in the rifle but is just eight from the handgun 900 FPS. As far defensive guns the snubby 44 was the winner for penetration followed by my 10MM and then the 1911 9MM with 147 grain HST. Even fired a few 22 magnums from my little NAmerican arms revolver. No expansion but 12" of penetration. What's interesting is how tough wet magazines are on ammo compared to 10% gel.

One ne of the impressive deer guns I have is a 375 GNR (a 445 necked down to 375). I cast a 270 grain GC HP running around 1450 FPS the destruction and penetration after full expansion is really impressive. The gun has muzzle brake so very little recoil. My son will be using that gun this year.

44man? Bad day?

[Lloyd Smale]

nothing wrong with experimentation. I used to be addicted to it. Had to shoot deer with about any thing I could dream up. Went real wrong one day when my buddy and I shot a couple buffalo with our 500s. He had got a 400 grain bullet with a huge hp from another buddy of ours and we wanted to try it out. Well we spent half a day running around trying to put down two buffalo. One was finally after 2 shots with hp put down with a lfn out of a 475 that we had along and the other was shot 3 times with the hp and put down with a 44 mag. When we skinned them out we found the deepest any of those hps had gone was about 6 inches and that one didn't even hit bone! I learned a lesson that day. We put those two buffalo through a lot of unnessisary pain. HP's work fine on deer but anything larger and you wouldn't get me to even try again.

As to penetration that 340 44 bullet I told you about was taken to the linebaugh seminar a few years back and shot against everything there in penetration testing. I pushed it (HOT LOAD) about 1200fps out of my 5.5 bisley. Many other 44 mags 45 colts 475s and 500s there and even a few African stopping rifles. That load came in third place and was beat out only by a couple 475 loads. Very impressive performance. My buddy took that bullet to canada in his 444 outfitter and killed some caribou. He was impressed too. Ill try to find the article he wrote on it and the 444 for you.

[Lloyd Smale]

here you go http://www.leverguns.com/articles/anderson/444Outfitter.htm when your done reading it theres a few more 444 articles that paco kelly wrote that might interest you on that website. Just look for the articles link..

[44man]

44man? Bad day?
No, but Lloyd is correct. There is nothing you can shoot that matches an animal. It takes years of experience with the real world to get it right. I still work at it myself. I have had too many failures both lost animals and destroyed ones. It is a fine line to walk.
I have from 180 to 190 deer kills with revolvers and know each caliber and the alloy needed for the boolit weight and velocity. .44, .475, 45-70 and .500 JRH. I don't have a .444 and do not need one but your tests tell you nothing and the velocity might fail you.
It is OK for fun but in the field is where you learn. If you never hunt I will shut up. If you never killed your tests are useless.
Then to have your son hunt with wet paper results might back fire. A loss or ruined meat?

[Hickory]

OK guys.
What is the practical limit for caliber, bullet weight and velocity for a hunting handgun for North America. Myself, I set the limit at 44 magnum caliber, between 250-300 GRS. Bullet and 1100- 1300 fps. The state of Ohio has deemed the 38 special acceptable for taking whitetail deer.

[Lloyd Smale]

Well I think I could go a bit lower then the 44. I think that the 41 and 10mm are up to the task of taking deer at short range with the right bullet. But that said I much prefer a 44 or 45. If your talking upper limit then there is none. Even a 500 linebaugh shooting full power 450 grain lfns is no more powerful then a black powder 4570. Hickory id say your load with the 44 is more of an ideal load then a bottom or top end load.

[44man]

Really does not matter. It all comes down to boolit performance, penetration, where energy is applied without a loss of penetration. It is very complicated. I have seen things that should not be.

[Hickory]

It just seems that a lot of people want the Biggest & Baddest for shooting deer.
It would be my guess that if the 20 mm were made legal for the private citizen to own, a vast majority would not only want one, but want one to shoot deer with.
My portable cannon ( 44 magnum ) is more then enough for any game animal in North America.

[Ramjet-SS]

I have over 200 deer kills so far in life so I am not idiot when comes to choosing the correct gun and making the shots to take animals. The difference between myself and you 44man is I do not or try and come across as total know it all. Unfortunately YOU do. Stop talking down to folks and if you want be helpful learn to write in manner that gets the point across without being such a "know it all" . I hope I got my point across.

For or the others I posted on this thread the load and gun are for fun if I do decide to shoot a deer it will perform just fine.

Thanks for for the responses.

[Hickory]

Stop talking down to folks and if you want be helpful learn to write in manner that gets the point across without being such a "know it all" . I hope I got my point across.

You know you are right, I did come across as a know it all, for which I'm sorry I did.
I will in the future try to convey my thoughts in a way that won't be misconstrue.
Again I apologize.

[Ramjet-SS]

Hickory it happens it's very obvious the net does not allow us to communicate as though we are sitting at a table in deer camp or at the local diner. I cannot read intent in a internet post. I can interoperate it and I guess that's where we get into the quagmire. We all share an interest that is guns shooting and hunting. What we do is mess around with boolits although I respect each persons individual experience and thier results they may not be for me or anyone else because every situation is different and every animal is a challenge on itself. I like guys sharing thier experience but we need to try and be respectful and not pushy or disrespectful to those who might have another opinion or contrary experience.

My my post frankly was directed at 44 Man he is a total jerk when he posts with his "know it all" attitude and condicending tone in his writing. I am tired of it. Why? Do we even know if all his expereince is even first hand or even the truth? The way he writes and acts I find it hard to believe anything he writes........period end of story.

[Lloyd Smale]

44mans experiences is real. He has taken his share of deer with handguns. He is not spouting bs. Although we don't agree on every aspect of hand loading we do agree on most.
Hickory it happens it's very obvious the net does not allow us to communicate as though we are sitting at a table in deer camp or at the local diner. I cannot read intent in a internet post. I can interoperate it and I guess that's where we get into the quagmire. We all share an interest that is guns shooting and hunting. What we do is mess around with boolits although I respect each persons individual experience and thier results they may not be for me or anyone else because every situation is different and every animal is a challenge on itself. I like guys sharing thier experience but we need to try and be respectful and not pushy or disrespectful to those who might have another opinion or contrary experience.

My my post frankly was directed at 44 Man he is a total jerk when he posts with his "know it all" attitude and condicending tone in his writing. I am tired of it. Why? Do we even know if all his expereince is even first hand or even the truth? The way he writes and acts I find it hard to believe anything he writes........period end of story.

[Lloyd Smale]

well in the real world its less powerful then a 3030 and not to many of us would grab a 3030 if we were hunting brown bear, moose or even elk. I'm sure they been killed very dead by 3030s at some point in time but its far from ideal. Like I said you stick your nose up in the air at someone shooting a bigger handgun then 44 but truth in fact is even a 500 or 475 has less power then a 4570 or 444 out of a rilfe does. If a 44 mag is the limit as to what you can afford or are capable of handling so be it but don't think everyone that has a 454, 475, or 500 in there holster is a chest beating ape. I think just the opposite is what you will find. Those calibers take ALOT of shooting to master and a lot of coin to buy and for those reasons you find them for the most part in holsters of very serious handgun hunters. Don't think for a second I'm knocking your 44. As a matter of fact I carry a 44 myself ALOT and have killed more game with 44mags then all my other handguns combined. But my big bores are hardly biggest and baddest in the field. They pail to a 270 or 06 and most avid hunter going for elk or larger animals want more power then those two rounds.
It just seems that a lot of people want the Biggest & Baddest for shooting deer.
It would be my guess that if the 20 mm were made legal for the private citizen to own, a vast majority would not only want one, but want one to shoot deer with.
My portable cannon ( 44 magnum ) is more then enough for any game animal in North America.

[Ramjet-SS]

44mans experiences is real. He has taken his share of deer with handguns. He is not spouting bs. Although we don't agree on every aspect of hand loading we do agree on most.


He may but it gets lost in his delivery. I know a guy running for President that has the same problem.

[Ramjet-SS]

Veral wrote a very interesting book about hunting with and design of cast bullets. John Linebaugh quoted and subscribed to many of Verals writings and phylosiphies. In my opinion they both had very valid points. Tissue Displacement and disruption.

[45 Dragoon]

Hmmmm . . . .
I seem to be able to understand him quite well (the guy running for president). The problem could be the ears listening . . . . . ?
"She" wants to take away all your talking points on this subject.

Mike

[Lloyd Smale]

verals theroys are solid. Only problem is hes allways a salesman and he badmouths anything but his own designs and ideas. Hes kind of a chest thumper and John Linebaugh is just totally opposite of that. Salt of the earth guy.
Veral wrote a very interesting book about hunting with and design of cast bullets. John Linebaugh quoted and subscribed to many of Verals writings and phylosiphies. In my opinion they both had very valid points. Tissue Displacement and disruption.

[44man]

I have explained too many times I still learn myself. I don't understand where some come from.
I am a grouch at times but I don't see where I was here. I explained that I don't know the .444. I do know what other calibers at too fast and hard do. I also know what soft and explosive does.
Maybe I am wrong passing on things and should let you alone for 60 years to discover things. I must be wrong telling boolit construction is what to look for to match the gun you shoot.
If you buy jacketed, do you use one bullet for deer to elephant? Or do you choose wisely? 10 yards to 600, do you use the same bullet?
I will start this season with the .475 BFR, 420 gr 22 BHN boolit. WHY? Because it is the proper velocity and drops almost every deer in it's tracks with massive internal damage and no meat loss.
Then I will go the the .44 and even a BP single shot pistol with a RB. Maybe my Ruger Old Army next.
I can tell you what my boolit does at 10 yards to 50 with the .44 and also what it does at 100+ and there IS a difference. If all my shots were over 100, I would change my boolit but that is far beyond some. You need to understand remaining velocity at range means a different boolit.
If I make my boolit work at 100+, it will suck at 20 yards. But I leave you to stacks of wet paper and a few jugs of water.
Do I get it wrong? Sure. Look at this with a 440 gr boolit, half the nose cast softer, 1350 fps. Deer was moving, I led her but she stopped at hammer fall and I hit the lead point. I ruined the shoulder on entrance and also the neck on exit. Boolit is still going.178949 I wish I was perfect.
You never hurt my feelings so don't worry. You are a good bunch after all. But don't take me wrong. I want to help more then anything.

[44man]

verals theroys are solid. Only problem is hes allways a salesman and he badmouths anything but his own designs and ideas. Hes kind of a chest thumper and John Linebaugh is just totally opposite of that. Salt of the earth guy.
You know that is true but Veral has a lot of knowledge.
But Linebaugh is more for penetration with his seminars. OK for Bear or Bison to elephant but no indications for us deer hunters. Yes I love penetration most of all but at what point is energy placed? You need to do a huge amount of internal damage and still penetrate with a small hole.
I do not like to see the other side of an animal blown up. Or the entrance.
My .475 will do 37" in wet phone books but it is where energy is before exit.178950 heart shot with no meat loss. Exit hole was boolit size.
Now how about water jugs? Set up 17 and blew 4 sky high, split the fifth and went through all 17. See where energy was. 22 bhn at 1329 fps. 178951 First four were blown many yards to be picked up and set back. Picture an animal at the first jugs.

[45 Dragoon]

Lloyd, I'll take a confident "chest thumper" over a lying politician any day! Frankly, I've had enough of them (lying politicians) on both sides.(I'm afraid that while waiting for the "perfect candidate " to show up, we're handing our country to the socialists a platter!!)

44man, very informative and excellent visual!! Thank you.

Mike

[44man]

Lloyd has experience far beyond what I can hunt here. We work for you. The need to shorten the learning curve is this site.

[Ramjet-SS]

Yea Veral is as you describe but I find those in the thier respective fields that are good at what they do can be that way. After all one needs to believe in thier product to neth degree or they may not be able to get others to feel the same. I have always had excellent performance from Verals designs. Took two bull elk 50 yards shots with S&W Hunter model 44 with a 300 grain WFN both went about 75 yards down the ridge before going down. Too be expected they big tough animals. Both cases the broadside shots resulted in the bullet under the hide on the off side.

Now below to show what Lloyd and I think 44 man were getting at; two of the same bullets. They were cast from the same mould and batch of alloy. The one that is obviously deformed was from the 444 at 1800 FPS at the muzzle. The one that looks like you could shoot it again is from my 44 Ruger Back Packer snubby 800 FPS at the muzzle. The distance they were shot into the wet news print was 20 yards. The 800 FPS traveled through 28" of wet news print and had the nose sticking out the back of the 2"x10" frame the news print was sitting in. The 444 traveled 20" and really disrupted the news print. Both traveled straight 178963

[44man]

You are a good man but let me ask. Why not another hole?

[Ramjet-SS]

Not sure what you are asking?

[fiberoptik]

Ruined the 2nd best piece of meat [emoji491] on that poor bambi. [emoji53]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive looked at a lot of shot deer and heres my take on it. ANY flat nosed cast bullet at 900 fps or more does enough damage to quickly kill a deer. To me even a conversation about what flat nosed cast bullet design is best for deer is a waste of time. ANY of them do just fine. Its not till you get up into 500 lb plus animals that some bullets might do better then others. It just doesn't take much to kill a whitetail. In all reality there just a small step up from antelope or even coyotes for that matter. Bullet placement is whats the key to quick kills with a handgun. Theres much less room for slight errors compared to a high powered rifle. Most handgun hunters would be much smarter to spend the time they spend doing penetration tests and expansion tests and even finding the smallest group and instead going out and practicing in field conditions. because shooting skill is whats going to bring home the backstraps. A guy with a 357 that can put all of his shots into a 3 inch circle at hunting ranges is going to be more deadly then the guy with a 500 linebaugh who can only put them in an 8 inch circle.
You know that is true but Veral has a lot of knowledge.
But Linebaugh is more for penetration with his seminars. OK for Bear or Bison to elephant but no indications for us deer hunters. Yes I love penetration most of all but at what point is energy placed? You need to do a huge amount of internal damage and still penetrate with a small hole.
I do not like to see the other side of an animal blown up. Or the entrance.
My .475 will do 37" in wet phone books but it is where energy is before exit.178950 heart shot with no meat loss. Exit hole was boolit size.
Now how about water jugs? Set up 17 and blew 4 sky high, split the fifth and went through all 17. See where energy was. 22 bhn at 1329 fps. 178951 First four were blown many yards to be picked up and set back. Picture an animal at the first jugs.

[Ramjet-SS]

I agree. You are however missing my point. I have this beast for fun. I have many many much better handguns for hunting. This one is for fun lots of noise and power. Yes I can hit the target off hand and from a rest it really accurate. Funny BFR did this one right they run a 1:16 twist so yes I could calm it down and get accuracy from it. But it is beast to lug around in the woods for so little power. :drinks:

[44man]

Not sure what you are asking?
Only hunting, I have found the best is two holes. I made mistakes at the start using the very accurate 240 XTP and recovered all 3 bullets from 3 deer. I used my IHMSA load of 24 gr of 296. I seen the deer go down over 60 yards each but I back track every deer and I found no blood at all on the trail. In my usual thick spots I might have lost all 3. I figure the 240 XTP would be ideal in the .44 special but for the mag, the 300 gr is better.
So at the velocities you shoot, What would work best? Maybe you get just right, I don't know so I have to depend on you for what happens.
The thing I get at is a deer's lungs are mostly AIR, not wet pack or jello or water jugs. Meat and bone changes it all. I have spent years trying to kill deer very fast and get a boolit to work if shoulder shot and lung shot- both. It is a challenge. How to get the perfect boolit? Can we even do it?
My gripe is not any of you, it is the darn animal that never falls for the tests we do. How do we put them together?
I was there before I could hunt deer with revolvers. Chucks, etc. Then water jugs and catching mushroomed boolits. WOW, what would that do to deer? Could be dead wrong. It is said deer are easy to kill but you must have them in hand to eat and more are lost then I can count. I found a dozen on one property alone. I hunt morals in the spring and find many rotten deer. Sometimes 10 in a 50 yard radius.
I have lost deer with wrong and nothing is worse. I know the deer died. I hate waste over anything.

[44man]

I agree. You are however missing my point. I have this beast for fun. I have many many much better handguns for hunting. This one is for fun lots of noise and power. Yes I can hit the target off hand and from a rest it really accurate. Funny BFR did this one right they run a 1:16 twist so yes I could calm it down and get accuracy from it. But it is beast to lug around in the woods for so little power. :drinks:
NO, need to shoot at what it wants. You have rifle power. Your hard part will be finding accuracy and the powder that works. The caliber is really too large for 10".
Twists are correct in BFR's but they were Badger Barrels. Badger was bought out so MR went to Green Mountain, good barrels but will twist be the same? I never got an answer from MR.
The Badger barrels were also hand lapped.
MR was bought out too. Profit might take over.

[Lloyd Smale]

then go have fun. Knowledge is best acquired by your own shooting.
I agree. You are however missing my point. I have this beast for fun. I have many many much better handguns for hunting. This one is for fun lots of noise and power. Yes I can hit the target off hand and from a rest it really accurate. Funny BFR did this one right they run a 1:16 twist so yes I could calm it down and get accuracy from it. But it is beast to lug around in the woods for so little power. :drinks:

[44man]

then go have fun. Knowledge is best acquired by your own shooting.
True and when you get the .444 to 1/2" at 100 yards. Come back.178994 The hole in the top of this can is 5 shots from my 45-70 BFR at 100. It fell and I had to set it up after every shot. The other holes are from a rifle with the can on the ground.

[Ramjet-SS]

Lost deer is not something I relish and agree two holes make the tracking better than one with blood filling up the pounch or lungs then not getting out because fat plugged up the hook. Funny with correct bullet construction and high velocity you can drop deer where they stand. I have done it many times with the Barnes X bullet and a 220 Swift. I have run deer length wise with 475 Linebaugh a 355 grain WFN at 1200 FPS both guns the deer were bang flop. Two holes are a good thing just like with my longbow heavy cut on contact 2-blade broadhead hit em in the boiler room you get tremendous blood and quick kills.

Thats why I agree with Lloyd hit em right you get your deer.

[dubber123]

I'm probably wrong too, but I kinda agree with Ramjet, if I am gonna lug a 10" BFR, it better make a healthy bang when it goes off. A .44 mag or .445 is a better choice if less power is needed at that point.

[44man]

Lost deer is not something I relish and agree two holes make the tracking better than one with blood filling up the pounch or lungs then not getting out because fat plugged up the hook. Funny with correct bullet construction and high velocity you can drop deer where they stand. I have done it many times with the Barnes X bullet and a 220 Swift. I have run deer length wise with 475 Linebaugh a 355 grain WFN at 1200 FPS both guns the deer were bang flop. Two holes are a good thing just like with my longbow heavy cut on contact 2-blade broadhead hit em in the boiler room you get tremendous blood and quick kills.

Thats why I agree with Lloyd hit em right you get your deer.
Now you are home with me. You do understand. I said right before, good man.

[Ramjet-SS]

Ernie Stahlman ...... Bader Barrels right? Chatted with him few times he had some nteresting stories about Africa and hunting with boolits and baboons .....��

He he made a heck of barrel I think for short time he supplied Browning barrels in thier single shots as well didn't he or to Shilo or one of those rifles makers.