30-30 to Lee factory crimp or just use the 2 die set I've got?

[paraord]

Title says it all. You guys have seen from my last post this is the first jump into necked cases. I picked up an RCBS 2 die set for the 30-30, wondering if I should get the factory crimp too. What say you fellow 94 shooters?

[perotter]

I would get it.

[shoot-n-lead]

I think I have an extra factory crimp die for the 30/30.

pm if interested

[nagantguy]

it's not q bad tool to have, totally diffrence animal than the fdc dies for pistols and revolvers, if you need it and it works than it's the best sub $20 investment, my favorite 94, a thuddy thuddy from the late 1930s that I fully restored and hunt with has an unusually tight throat and a leed on the shortish side, the lee crimp die helps a lot. I also have an older 06 that has a throat about one half frog hair short or being tight, it shoots very well, I call him mr. clean cause since 2007 I have not missed a game animal with it, anyhow the crimp die also ensures smooth chambering/uniform size.

[MT Chambers]

I have been reloading for 50 years including the 30.30 and have never needed a third die when the seating die does such a good job of crimping.

[downshift]

I load a lot of 3030 for my Winchester 94 and my old H&R single shot 3030 always used the lee factory crimp die just does a great job

[Hick]

I use the 2-die set for my Win 94 30-30. After a whole lot of checking and looking every time I loaded rounds in my magazine I found that there just wasn't enough recoil to telescope the bullets into the cases. So-- I never crimp. Same for my 32 WS. Both rifles have 4000+ rounds without crimping and without issues.

[Four-Sixty]

My Marlin's chamber is very tight. The Lee FCD gives a good crimp so my boolits chamber with ease. I probably need it though cause I use the Lyman M die to.

[jaysouth]

Title says it all. You guys have seen from my last post this is the first jump into necked cases. I picked up an RCBS 2 die set for the 30-30, wondering if I should get the factory crimp too. What say you fellow 94 shooters?

I have two die sets for the 30-30 from Lyman and RCBS. Both seater dies do a good job of crimping the mouth. Easy does it, just enough to remove the bell in the mouth. Are you loading cast bullets?

[OverMax]

Just saying
The crimp supplied by most F.L. Seater Dies. Is the crimp suggested by the die manufacture for-use on that specific cartridge. There are only two styles of crimping that I know of. (Roll crimp & Taper crimp.) So OP just which style of crimp does a Factory Crimp Die resemble please?

[Wayne Smith]

I've been loading the 30-30 since I was 16, and started loading cast in it about 15 years ago. I started with the Lee thumb set and graduated to the RCBS two die set. Never had to use anything else for this cartridge in two Marlin 336 actions.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

The two die set works just fine. With careful adjustment of the seater/crimp die you can avoid an extra/separate step for crimping. I have and use the Lee Factory crimp on occasion, but it is NOT necessary for functional and accurate reloading. It does add an extra step.

[claude]

It isn't necessary, I do just fine with the RCBS cowboy die set, I used an RCBS two die set before that, and get quality ammunition. My experience with the factory collet crimp die has been people tend to over crimp with it, myself included. By the time you adjust the crimp properly, there is nothing gained in my experience by using it. I would save my money for something more essential.

This is a classic Ford/Chevy question, the answer pretty much based solely on opinion and personal preference and not a lot else, my 2¢ included.

[Ithaca Gunner]

You'll want to crimp separately from seating anyway, why not use a dedicated die for the job? I use LEE Factory crimp dies for all my reloading.

[Four-Sixty]

I too like to crimp separately. My rifle has the micro groove rifling. I use a Ranch Dog mold (by Lee) and size to .311". My rifle' s bore is pitted, but I am pleased with the accuracy I can get.

I agree the Lee collet die is excessive in the crimp it does, but 30-30 brass is common. I'm up to 5 reloads with the Lee collet die and no failures yet.

[Mk42gunner]

The RCBS seating and roll crimping die has worked fine for me in all the lever action rifle cartridges I have used them for- .30-30, .35 Remington, and .45-70. I normally adjust the die to seat and crimp in one step, I have seen no need to do it in separate steps.

Read the instructions on die adjustment and try it before you decide to spend extra money on a die that may not be needed.

Robert

[Four-Sixty]

If you buy the Lee set you get all three dies anyway. And, you get a shellholder.

[claude]

If you buy the Lee set you get all three dies anyway.

No you don't, the new Lee sets have no provision for roll crimping in the seating die, this is from the unfortunate experience of buying a Lee set only to find out the dead length seating die has no crimping capability. For those of us who enjoy a roll crimp, the change sucks. This is not a cheap shot at Lee, the dies are indeed well made, they just lack the ability to roll crimp, and shouldn't be advertised as such, by anyone. Should one have the old two die set, and then purchased the FC die, the seating die in the two die set did indeed have that ability, but they are not available any longer. One may be able to purchase the seating/crimping die separately, but they are not available in the three die set.

[Scharfschuetze]

The only third die that I use for the 30/30 (or any rifle) when loading cast boolits is either a Lyman M die or its RCBS equivalent to expand and bell the neck.

When properly used the RCBS, Redding or Lyman two die sets will seat boolits and give you a proper roll crimp without the need for the Lee Factory Crimp Die. Just my two cents, but in 45 years of loading the 30/30, I've never seen a need for it with either cast or jacketed bullets.

I generally use only purpose designed bullets in my 30/30 and 32 Special, so either cast or jacketed bullets have a crimping groove on them at the correct location for proper crimping, chambering and loading through the magazines. Perhaps if you are using a bullet designed for something else then the LFCD might be of use. I use a Redding taper crimp die in such cases to snug up the fit of the bullet and neck.

[robg]

Use one for my 223/308 and a friends 3030 they make a fine job of crimping.

[Four-Sixty]

I called Lee and confirmed that the new dies are for bullet seating only. They did remove the ability to taper crimp with them. I got lucky in that the set I have has the provision to taper crimp still. I bought my set 2-3 years ago.

[claude]

I called Lee and confirmed that the new dies are for bullet seating only.

Never doubted your integrity for a minute, thank you for the confirmation.

[44man]

I had too much accuracy problems with various dies. Mostly revolvers. I have Redding dies that work and also custom BR dies even a collar die set for the .44 mag.
I changed to Hornady dies long ago and still buy them for rifles, the inline seater is great. I never crimp separate, I have seated and crimped when needed at the same time for 62-63 years and never found a need to do it any other way.
Most Hornady dies come with a crimp die, marked taper but they do a nice roll crimp. Trouble is they are for jacketed and many fat cast will not fit through them unless lapped out so I don't use them.
Many do not like the Hornady but they equal my BR dies.
I had some problems with Redding long ago that sized too much so I would send them back with fired brass to get lapped for minimum sizing so the expander did not bend shoulders when pulled out. They did it free back then. It was the ONLY way to make Weatherby rounds accurate.
I won't fool with dies and got to the point I could almost tell you what dies you loaded with after shooting. With revolvers I will tell what primer you used too.
Now I use a lot of Lee products and Lyman, RCBS but not dies.

[44man]

I have explained many, many times that brass is the enemy of accuracy. If you can't cure it your 25 yard groups are 3X larger then my 500 meter groups.
The 30-30 is a pain for run out. Brass thickness at the neck can be all over. I actually neck turn mine just enough to even out. Many will say it is a waste with chambers for hunting but a straight start to cast is even more important then jacketed. Anyone that thinks a boolit will align when shot drinks funny juice. Seen the 30-30 with up to .025" run out. No more then .002" is wanted.
A lever gun and a pump gun can equal a bolt gun, only one I have trouble with is a semi auto but some today are superb.

[Half Dog]

Well...Some say yes and some say no. Everyone has their reasons for their choices and all I can suggest is to try it. I use a FCD with good luck.

[popper]

Get the FCD. Unless you trim after sizing, roll or taper crimps require a deft hand on the press. Even an improper set FCD can buckle the neck.

[44man]

FCD might be the worst tasting on the plate. I found a use for mine. Crimp a loose GC on a boolit.

[DougGuy]

There are only two styles of crimping that I know of. (Roll crimp & Taper crimp.) So OP just which style of crimp does a Factory Crimp Die resemble please?

The factory crimp for a bottleneck case is a collet style die which closes in on the case mouth from the sides with a 4 fingered collet and they work really good.

178995

[Shawlerbrook]

Another satisfied user of the Lee FCD. You probably could survive without it, but it sure does work. I use it for all levergun reloading. I thought it was included in the Lee Pacesetter die sets.

[44man]

It pokes dents into brass. Better a roll crimp that opens or dents to rub boolits? Brass life after?
A cure for hemorrhoids?

[Four-Sixty]

Sometime, 44man, I'd like to see your case tension tool. I'd like to learn more about brass characteristics.

[44man]

Sure, I should have a picture.179041 The long rod is piano wire (spring steel) from the model airplane store. It is 1/8" and is in an aluminum block at the bottom of the handle but my first used a hose clamp.
I drilled a hole through the handle for the short rod, sliding link on the long rod. The short one is graduated.
I just start a boolit and seat with the spring rod, it bends and pulls the short rod out, the faucet washer will stay at a graduation so I can sort by seating pressure. For each load, push the washer back.
Brand new revolver brass is the worst and I will have many groups of loads, each batch will shoot good but If I mix them, the lightest seating will be 10" from the tightest.
If you keep tension even, you get the smallest groups.
The problem is, this does not work on rifle brass because the handle is too low and even handle weight throws readings off. I need to figure a way.
I spent a long time with crimps, from none and single shot to full profile and found crimp means almost nothing. Only enough to hold boolits is all that is needed.
I bought a FCD for one caliber and it is harsh on brass and seemed to ruin boolits trying to open it. Brass does not POP open to release a boolit. I will not use an "M" die either, removes too much tension.
I use an old RCBS expander die, .44 that I made a flare button to fit to flare 30-30 brass.
Hornady revolver dies have a short expander, goes in about 3/8" so the boolit is actually the final expander and is why I shoot harder boolits.

[44man]

I have no belief at all in soft to seal and fit, years of experiments has shown to over expand to protect soft lead does not work. Soft also skids rifling and a boolit can slump way out of shape.
Even a little softer needs a GC but I have over run the GC too.
Now it is PC for softer but what does paint do to resist brass?
Light loads use a fast powder that will peak right now and even though lower then a slow powder that peaks a little farther, the pressure is more then lead can stand. Best to get the boolit moving first and add pressure. Even inches is important.
Working a semi wad cutter has shown with Unique, 231, etc, accuracy did not even begin until I got to 28 BHN. I got them to shoot tighter at 50 yards then softer did at 25.
There is just too much false info out there not based on facts.
My success is based on making cast work like jacketed, even the rifle works better with the slow powders, jacketed loads. The 30-30 likes 3031, 4895 and Varget.

[popper]

Factory canular'd ammo use A foctory crimp in the cannular. My boolits don't have a cannular so the FCD lets me crimp anywhere. I adjust it to remove the bell, not really a crimp. I tend to agree with 44man on harness & I PC. It is a tradeoff for expansion and base deformation. 36 BHN seems as accurate as 24 @ 2100 fps. Fast powders work soften Pb immediately.