How come we don't see new Cupro nickle bullets?

[kawasakifreak77]

If I'm using the wrong term, please correct me. But anyways..

6.5 Swede M41 & 7.5 Swiss GP11 have those silver looking bullets & shoot absolutely great. Better than most off the shelf ammo these days I'd say.

What happened to the silver bullets? They shoot fine & look cooler!

[daengmei]

Wild guess...cost?

[kawasakifreak77]

That's odd. I've never had a problem with fouling in my K31s & I shoot buckets of GP11.

The GP11 I'm shooting does have the wax ring, but I read that was a weather proofing measure.

Not trying arguemenatable, just I've never seen the fouling problem. At least not on the Swiss rifles, their bores are like mirrors!

[Multigunner]

Unfortunately the mirror like surface in a bore that has seen many rounds of Cupronickel jacketed ammo is most likely a thin plating of Cupro-Nickel adhering to the bore.

If the ammo you are using has non corrosive primers you may never have a problem with this sort of metal fouling. The Army Armorers manuals from the days when C-N jackets and corrosive primers were the norm give special instructions for examining rifles kept in storage to identify blooms of rust forming under the C-N fouling.

I reluctantly traded off a Krag carbine many years ago because I found enormous craters of rust under the C-N fouling, the metal peeling out of the grooves in long strips. The thick strips of C-N were hard enough to rip the bristles off a bronze brush.

I have read that C-N jackets are still used in some European countries, Spain was mentioned.

[17nut]

Copper solvents are dime a dozen, water soliable, enviromentally friendly and some actually work.
Nickel removing is a b!7ch, and unless you know an old chemestry teacher you are up a certain creek without a paddle.

Food for thought:
www.odcmp.org/1101/can.pdf

So kawafreak how many GP11's have you shot?
The probelms never arose for GI's but for highly competitive shooters with thousands of shots each year.
Maybe you're not good enough to have noticed the rifles accuracy drop off ever so slight over time?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

The most accurate bullets that I've ever fired were some C-N jacketed round nose soft point 219 gr. Norma 8mm bullets. That was back in the 1960s, and in later years I was unable to obtain more.

[Phineas Bluster]

kawasakifreak77,

I don't believe that you are being argumentative at all. You are simply stating the facts based on your experience. Depending upon the age of your ammunition, it is possible that your GP11 may not have a cupro-nickel jacket. Over the years, plated steel, tombac, copper, and brass, as well as cupro-nickel were used by the Swiss on GP11 ammunition.

The cupro-nickel fouling became an problem when rifle pressures and velocities were increased to .30/06 levels. The .30 USA and .30/03 evidently did not exhibit the same type and amount of fouling as the .30/06.

The issue of cupro-nickel fouling, its effects on accuracy, and methods or removal are addressed by Townsend Whelen in Chapter II, Care of the Rifle in his book Suggestions to Military Riflemen, also in Chapter XLII, The Cleaning and Care of the Rifle in his book The American Rifle.

Julian Hatcher addresses the issue in Chapter 14, Gun Corrosion and Ammunition Developments of Hatcher's Notebook.

Dick Culver's piece When the "Tin Can" Changed History (http://jouster.com/sea_stories/when_the_tin_can_changed_history.pdf) is an interesting account dealing with the evolution of the early .30/06 ammunition from the viewpoint of a competitive shooter.

The cupro-nickel fouling was a real enough problem that governments were quick to abandon the alloy once gilding metal came along.

PB

[bruce drake]

The best 8mm FMJs I ever shot were pulled Turkish C-N bullets.over 46gr of IMR4064. A guy had pulled down two cases of the bullets and replaced them with commercial winchester softpoints for use in his Maxim 08 at Knob Creek. Can I find them anymore...nope. Do I wish I could still? Nope. I find I get better accuracy in all 3 of my 8mm barrelled mausers with .325 cast lead bullets.

B

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You're right about the pulled Turk bullets. I also had great success with them--and still have a pile! :mrgreen: They were/are interesting because the Turks crimped them so tightly that they had a noticeable ring around them, but they shot well anyway. A friend and I bought several cases of the ammo when it was available, about $65 per case as I recall (and the rifles only cost $39!) and it came both lead and steel core. A friend and I tore down a couple of cases and salvaged both the bullets and the powder, which was reloaded into new R-P cases to avoid the corrosive primers. We weighed a sampling of the powder charges as we went along and found them to be as low as 42 gr. and as high as 52 gr., so for target purposes we settled on 48 gr. My friend shot them in one of the M-36 Turk Mausers and I used a Czech VZ-24. Great times!
178711178712
Click to enlarge.

[Char-Gar]

Cupro-nickel jackets had a tendency to leave lumps of fouling in the bore that ruined accuracy. Shooters took to greasing their bullets in a effort to reduce fouling.

A concoction known as "ammonia dope" was the only sure-fire method of removing cupro-nickel fouling from the bore. This solution, if exposed to the air whilst in contact with the steel, was very corrosive and could trash a bore in quick order.

Gilding metal is was a vast improvement over the cupro-nickel jacket.

PB

Dat be spot on correct.

[bruce drake]

You're right about the pulled Turk bullets. I also had great success with them--and still have a pile! :mrgreen: They were/are interesting because the Turks crimped them so tightly that they had a noticeable ring around them, but they shot well anyway. A friend and I bought several cases of the ammo when it was available, about $65 per case as I recall (and the rifles only cost $39!) and it came both lead and steel core. A friend and I tore down a couple of cases and salvaged both the bullets and the powder, which was reloaded into new R-P cases to avoid the corrosive primers. We weighed a sampling of the powder charges as we went along and found them to be as low as 42 gr. and as high as 52 gr., so for target
purposes we settled on 48 gr. My friend shot them in one of the M-36 Turk Mausers and I used a Czech VZ-24. Great times!
178711178712
Click to enlarge.
Yes, those wasp-waisted FMJs were awesome. All within a half grain of each other as well.

[Artful]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/GP-11.jpg/220px-GP-11.jpg
The GP 11 cartridge used double-base powder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder#Chemical_formulations) combining nitrocellulose (gun cotton) with about 30% nitroglycerin as propellants. The 11.3 gram (174 grain) Full Metal Jacket GP 11 spitzer bullet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitzer_bullet) contained a lead (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead)/antimony (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimony) core. The jacket was made of plated steel or tombac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombac).
{Tombac/Tombak, is a brass (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass) alloy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloy) with high copper (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper) content and 5-20% zinc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc) content.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombac#cite_note-market-metal.com-1)
Tin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin),lead (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead) or arsenic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic) may be added for colouration.}
Depending on the year of production the plating was made of copper , brass , nickel or copper-nickel.

[tomme boy]

If I am not mistaken if the magnet sticks to the bullet, it is C/N and probably copper washed?

[Linstrum]

If I am not mistaken if the magnet sticks to the bullet, it is C/N and probably copper washed?

Hi tomme boy, did accidentally leave out the word "not"? I would certainly agree that if a factory manufactured bullet is attracted to a magnet, then it is copper-washed soft steel, has a steel core, or both.

Nickel metal is highly magnetic just like iron and cobalt, but nickel is a bit dilute in cupro-nickel alloys. United States 5¢ "nickels" are made of a cupro-nickel alloy, the coins specifically being 75% copper and 25% nickel. They are magnetic because of the nickel in them, but it takes a very strong magnet like a cobalt-samarium rare earth magnet and a somewhat sensitive set-up to detect the magnetic attraction. So if a bullet is magnetic, then it most likely has steel in it somewhere.

[Scharfschuetze]

A friend and I bought several cases of the ammo when it was available, about $65 per case

Same here for friends and myself. Great bullets and pretty good European style flake (thin squares) powder. I too broke down a couple of cases and I'll be shooting them in my Mausers for years. I load them in either reformed Lake City Ought-Six brass or Remington brass with a reduced powder charge to avoid any issues with CN fouling.

Accuracy is great and will often will hover around 2 MOA for military Mausers with their issue sights.

The last lots of the Turk 8mm ammo had gilding metal jacketed bullets. Apparently the Turks also felt that the CN jackets were problematic at 8mm ball velocities.

[justashooter]

cupro-nickel bullets had a tendency to fuse/join to brass case in a matter of 5 years in some 30-06 military loadings in the early 20's. such ammo was surplussed off and replaced. Julian hatcher discussed this phenomenon of chemical interaction.

[Multigunner]

I think you may be confusing the internally tin plated .30-40 cartridge cases that fused to the bullet jacket rather than the Cupro-Nickel jackets.
They had tin plated the interior of these cases to reduce deterioration of stored ammo in tropical climates.

[tomme boy]

I see that Tula ammunition is now selling their 223 ammo with a silver bullet. I don't know if it is CN or just steel?

[PAT303]

Anyone know what Norma factory 156grn bullets are made with?,I've got a few old boxes of them,they look like Tombac jacketed and they got me my biggest bull camel to date. Pat

[Multigunner]

Besides the problems with Krag cases plated on the inside with Tin in 1921 a special matchgrade 180 gr flat base bullet used in military matches had a Cupro-Nickel jacket which was itself tin plated.
The Tin plating worked in preventing build up of CN in the bore, but there were pressure problems, possibly due to cold soldering of Tin to the brass casings. This was made worse because match shooters were in the habit of greasing Cupro-Nickel bullets to reduce fouling and when grease migrated to the chamber a number of the LN Springfield receivers failed.

[ironhead7544]

Anyone know what Norma factory 156grn bullets are made with?,I've got a few old boxes of them,they look like Tombac jacketed and they got me my biggest bull camel to date. Pat

Norma made some steel jacketed bullets in the 60ties. They were nickel plated and then coated with a clear paint. Werent popular here because people thought they would damage bores. I still have some 240 gr 44 cal hollowpoint and soft points. Shot a lot of them back then. Very accurate. They were called Tri-Clad.

[swheeler]

Norma made some steel jacketed bullets in the 60ties. They were nickel plated and then coated with a clear paint. Werent popular here because people thought they would damage bores. I still have some 240 gr 44 cal hollowpoint and soft points. Shot a lot of them back then. Very accurate. They were called Tri-Clad.

Federal sold loaded ammunition with nickel plated bullets not too many years ago, their safari line or dangerous game can't remember for sure the name, discontinued now I believe. I have a few 500 gr-.458 pulled from Lott ammo.

[jsn]

These are supposed to be cupro-nickel but appear to be growing rust. Any idea why?

PS--they stick to a magnet.

179390

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Besides the problems with Krag cases plated on the inside with Tin in 1921 a special matchgrade 180 gr flat base bullet used in military matches had a Cupro-Nickel jacket which was itself tin plated.
The Tin plating worked in preventing build up of CN in the bore, but there were pressure problems, possibly due to cold soldering of Tin to the brass casings. This was made worse because match shooters were in the habit of greasing Cupro-Nickel bullets to reduce fouling and when grease migrated to the chamber a number of the LN Springfield receivers failed.

General Hatcher quoted Col. Townsend Whelen on this. The tinned bullets in the National Match were .30-06, and although it did very greatly increase the bullet pull as measured by a machine gauge (actually until the gauge broke), it didn't produce excessive pressures in firing. What did was the combination of those bullets with the forbidden practice of dipping the bullet in grease.

Presumably a buildup of grease filled the space between the chamber and the neck of the cartridge. Liquids behave as solids when you hit them fast enough, which is why high-diving record attempts now almost always result in serious injury. My conjecture is that bullets don't pull or rather push out of the case-neck's grip at all. They are released like a surgeon blowing into a clinging rubber glove. With the grease in place they can't do that, and revert to pushing against that exceptional brass-to-tin adhesion.

I am not so sure I believe in cold-soldering, though. The friction required to start one substance moving against another ("stiction") is even more complicated than ordinary sliding friction. It is much higher for two sheets of polished glass than two of ground glass, which may be why a genuine mirror-bright bore may acquire nickel fouling at least as much as a lightly frosted one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction

Cupro-nickel is harder than gilding metal or copper, and it has a higher melting-point. The question why it produces worse fouling is simpler than the above, though. Firstly it has a higher coefficient of friction on steel, creating more frictional heat. It is also a much worse conductor of heat than copper or the brasses, and during the extremely short bore time frictional heat therefore remains in a thin boundary layer. The same heat in a small amount of metal, had it even been the same, produces a higher temperature.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/friction-coefficients-d_778.html

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html

So why did they use nickel at all? Maybe as a military bullet it was less likely to expand or break up, in the days when people cared about such things. It is also less likely to permit melting of the lead core, which with copper or gilding metal sometimes presents itself not at the muzzle, but in centrifugally-sprayed lead on a target card a few yards further on.

The .303 is less prone to nickel fouling than the .303, due to its lower velocity, and with 3000ft./sec. rounds such as the .280 Ross was a grave defect. In the early experiments with the .303 even cupro-nickel sometimes produced core melting, and they considered an insulating paper layer, but went for a thicker jacket as being less liable to harm the concentricity of mass.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

These are supposed to be cupro-nickel but appear to be growing rust. Any idea why?

PS--they stick to a magnet.

179390

They are steel, either electroplated or made from a hot-rolled sandwich of metal sheets like some coinage. The technique for the latter originated with Sheffield plate for cutlery etc., in which silver was hot-rolled onto cupro-nickel. A 6.5mm. Carcano bullet I have is unrusted, but much more strongly attracted to a magnet than even pure nickel would be. Some military bullets will deceive you by including a steel armour penetrator which is magnetic regardless of the jacket material. The distinction is important for anyone accused of using or selling armour-piercing bullets in jurisdictions where he shouldn't.

I used to pick up ammunition, mostly 7.62x39, around the old Iraqi positions near the beaches of Kuwait City. The imported ones had similar corrosion through copper or gilding metal on the bullets, and much more on the more thinly copper-washed cases. But the Iraqi-made rounds, although lamentably badly-made, had no steel content, presumably because forming was easier.

[Multigunner]

"I am not so sure I believe in cold-soldering, though"
NASA has experimented with cold soldering and cold welding in space.
In a vacuum polished metal plates were permanently welded together by simply crushing spots together with a hand tool similar to channel lock pliers. Dissimilar metals can also bond under pressure if the surface grain structure is compatible.
The process is somewhat like the galling of stainless steel slides and frame rails if both components are made from the same stainless alloy.
A bullet sealant such as that used for most milspec .303 ammo would most likely prevent such close contact between bullet and neck.

[swheeler]

Here's what Federal is currently loading with nickel plated bullets.

http://www.cabelas.com/assets/images/catalog/brandlogo/federalpremium_120x63.gifFederal Premium® Trophy Bonded Tip Rifle Ammunition







Polymer tip and boattail bullet for improved accuracy
Solid-copper shank ensures reliable penetration
Nickel-plated case and bullet for easier extraction


Built on the proven Trophy Bonded Bear Claw® platform, this new addition to in Federal’s Vital-Shok® line increases performance even more. A neon, translucent polymer tip and flat-shooting boattail bullet deliver improved downrange accuracy. A bone-smashing solid-copper shank ensures reliable penetration. Exterior skiving on the nickel-plated bullet provides optimum expansion at any range. The nickel-plated case and bullet make for easier extraction and helps reduce fouling. 20 cartridges per box.

[leadman]

The plating Federal is using must be of a high nickel content. Nickel is in our unleaded gas to lubricate the valves and seats in the cylinder heads.
The Army did not have problems with the cupro nickel bullets in the 30-40 Krag but did when the 30-03 and then the 30-06 were in service. Mobilube was issued to the troops so they could apply some to the exposed bullet. The 1903 Springfields did suffer some failures that were blamed on the heat treating. Shortly the gilding metal bullet was put in service and the troops were ordered to stop the use of Mobilube but some did not and this lead to a few 1903 Springfield blowing up with the gilding metal bullets. Then the issue with the 1903 Springfields seemed to fade away, so was it bad heat treat, or lube getting on the cases from the troops lubing them and not using them immediately?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Most explosions with Springfields were with early ones, below about 800,000 for Springfield Arsenal production and 285,000 for Rock Island, which had inferior heat treatment. Even so it seems to have been connected with inferior brass produced in the speeded-up wartime production, or the use of an 8x57 round, which was a not uncommon souvenir from France. General Hatcher describes a batch in which the discs stamped out to begin brass-drawing were too close together, and each had a small half-moon dent in its edge where it was made up partly of the hole left by the last one. Improper annealing, either final or among the intermediate annealings during manufacture, may also have been a factor. The heat treatment issue was resolved late in WW1, and nickel steel introduced at much the same time.

I haven't seen Col.Whelen's own account, and I don't know whether those National Match accidents involved early Springfields. Certainly tin-plating and grease (rather than tin-plating or grease) was a major factor. Marksmen are notoriously reluctant to be parted from the rifle they know, just as there are British Army regiments which have Bren guns stored away. The bullet for the 6mm. Navy Winchester-Lee was tin-plated copper, and so far as I know never changed. That is probably a weaker rifle than the Springfield, so I doubt if sailors used grease.

That is very interesting about cold-welding in space, but it sounds so convenient that there must be some good reason why we aren't doing it in the atmosphere. Crimping pliers could exert a lot more pressure than a case-neck, too. But if it works, I doubt if bullet sealant would prevent it. I may be wrong, but I think bullet sealants are applied after insertion.

[Multigunner]

" I may be wrong, but I think bullet sealants are applied after insertion. "
Depending on the time frame some .303 ammo was manufactured using a resinous sealant that the base of the bullet was dipped into before seating, the card wad prevented contamination of the cordite charge.
When bullets are pulled from these the sealant remains smeared on the bullet sides.
Early manufacture placed a smaller amount of beeswax based sealant in a canelure groove that entered the neck, the bullet then being stake crimped in place. Larger calibers used a thick solid disk of sealant at the base of the bullet over the card wad.

For cold welding to take place the surfaces must be free of any oil or other contaminants. Some alloys bond more easily than others and a relatively light pressure over the course of years can do the trick as well as heavy pressure for a matter of seconds.
Galling of stainless steel moving parts can happen despite grease in fractions of a second.

Low Number Springfields were in common use, especially on the target ranges, well into WW2.

[Multigunner]

"That is very interesting about cold-welding in space, but it sounds so convenient that there must be some good reason why we aren't doing it in the atmosphere. "

We are cold welding on earth. Its a very specialized process with greater applications according to the present level of technology.

http://www.coldpressurewelding.com/