Failure!!!

[shoot-n-lead]

This is not about CB loads, but it is about loads that I am pretty sure that a good many members here probably rely on one of these for self defense.

As some here know, I am a fan of 44 Special and as such, I carry one at times for self defense. My son, also, frequently carries a Charter Bulldog...loves the little gun and big bore. Well, I have long heard how good the Speer Gold Dot 200gr 44 Special bullet is in the Special. I have never carried that bullet..but, I got a box in trade the other day and I loaded some up this morning and with testing it in mind. I loaded this to about 900fps...could have been hotter...but I have always been under the impression that this bullet was specifically designed for the 44 Special...and that it would work at lower velocity. My testing of these loads proved...not so much...at least to me. This premium hp did not offer to open in my water pipe test.

My son wanted to test his Hornady Critical Defense carry ammo while I was at it. So, he tries some of that ammo, with exactly the same result. Did not offer to open.

This test is not meant to mimic flesh or how the bullet would perform in flesh...but it does produce expansion on most bullets tested...even a lot of cast boolits.

I am not saying that anyone should take anything away from this...test your ammo for yourself...that way you know what it will do for you. But, what I am saying is that I will not depend on either of these rounds to expand in a self defense situation. And, I will come up with a cast bullet that WILL expand an acceptable amount...for me.

Just thought that some may find these results interesting.

These bullets were recovered after 15" of continuous water penetration...not several containers.

Speer 200gr and 165gr Critical Defense
178661

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have been told that a 38 target wadcutter loaded backwards (with the hollow base facing forward) would be a super defence load in close quarters!

[shoot-n-lead]

I have been told that a 38 target wadcutter loaded backwards (with the hollow base facing forward) would be a super defence load in close quarters!

It would probably be a good as these 2 were, for us, today.

Actually, I have always carried full regular wadcutters in the 44 Special. I know the damage it would do...but I would be concerned about over penetration as they penetrate, pretty well.

[NoAngel]

A hollow point "MIGHT" expand....it might not. A healthy meplat on a solid cast bullet is more reliable. Never seen one shrink.
Holes kill stuff. I would much rather punch a good clean hole that won't close easily.

If I were carrying a .44 special as my carry gun, I would look for a well fitted bullet with at least a 75% Meplat. Cast it from a good quality alloy and work up a load I KNOW shoots well and feel secure.

[shoot-n-lead]

A hollow point "MIGHT" expand....it might not. A healthy meplat on a solid cast bullet is more reliable. Never seen one shrink.
Holes kill stuff. I would much rather punch a good clean hole that won't close easily.

If I were carrying a .44 special as my carry gun, I would look for a well fitted bullet with at least a 75% Meplat. Cast it from a good quality alloy and work up a load I KNOW shoots well and feel secure.

I would feel secure also...just not so much for some innocent that might be standing some distance behind the bad guy. I know how much cast bullets will penetrate...one person ain't gonna stop them. It is one thing to have a bullet that might pass through, as compared to one that you KNOW will pass through.

[Petrol & Powder]

I have been told that a 38 target wadcutter loaded backwards (with the hollow base facing forward) would be a super defence load in close quarters!
I actually did some testing on reversed HBWC's and I was very displeased with the results. Despite all of lore surrounding that concept, I would never carry a load with a reversed HBWC.
That large cavity may look like a great hollowpoint but it doesn't behave like one.
IF you can get it to hit the point of aim (and I found that to be a serious problem at even relatively short ranges), the skirt would frequently separate therefore reducing the mass and penetration of the remaining primary projectile. Other times it would simply peel back on itself and the penetration would still be poor.
I think the appearance of that projectile lends support for its use as an exaggerated hollow point but I found its actual performance in that role to be substandard to even solid non-hollow point designs. YMMV.

[Petrol & Powder]

I would feel secure also...just not so much for some innocent that might be standing some distance behind the bad guy. I know how much cast bullets will penetrate...one person ain't gonna stop them. It is one thing to have a bullet that might pass through, as compared to one that you KNOW will pass through.

Shoot-n-lead, While I commend you for your concern about secondary consequences of employing deadly force with a firearm; I feel that the phenomenon of over-penetration needs to be evaluated in the perspective of the situation.
IF one must use a handgun in a deadly force situation, one's primary concern is to stop the threat. While it is true that projectiles can over-penetrate and be dangerous to others, they can also miss and be deadly, fail to penetrate enough and be ineffective or they may just work as intended.
Obviously, we would like to stack the deck in favor of making the bullet work exactly as intended but a lot of things can go wrong. While the concept of over-penetration is valid, I think it is overemphasized in the realm of self-defense.
A round nose, FMJ is a poor choice for self-defense for several reasons and potential over-penetration is one of those reasons. A solid SWC may penetrate more than a SWCHP but that extra penetration may be key to terminal ballistics and stopping the threat.

I don't wish to imply that over-penetration should be discarded as a concern but I do think it needs to be held in perspective. My first goal is to survive the encounter. The odds of over-penetration being a danger to others in every SD shooting is actually pretty low and I wouldn't want to rely on a bullet design to ALWAYS prevent over-penetration.

[shoot-n-lead]

Shoot-n-lead, While I commend you for your concern about secondary consequences of employing deadly force with a firearm; I feel that the phenomenon of over-penetration needs to be evaluated in the perspective of the situation.
IF one must use a handgun in a deadly force situation, one's primary concern is to stop the threat. While it is true that projectiles can over-penetrate and be dangerous to others, they can also miss and be deadly, fail to penetrate enough and be ineffective or they may just work as intended.
Obviously, we would like to stack the deck in favor of making the bullet work exactly as intended but a lot of things can go wrong. While the concept of over-penetration is valid, I think it is overemphasized in the realm of self-defense.
A round nose, FMJ is a poor choice for self-defense for several reasons and potential over-penetration is one of those reasons. A solid SWC may penetrate more than a SWCHP but that extra penetration may be key to terminal ballistics and stopping the threat.

I don't wish to imply that over-penetration should be discarded as a concern but I do think it needs to be held in perspective. My first goal is to survive the encounter. The odds of over-penetration being a danger to others in every SD shooting is actually pretty low and I wouldn't want to rely on a bullet design to ALWAYS prevent over-penetration.

I agree with you on this...but I know how hard a cast bullet is to stop. I believe there are very effective options for us that are more responsible choices. And, the beauty of cast bullets is that you can tailor a bullet to do pretty much anything, within reason, that you want it to do. So, if I soften my bullets up, lighten them up a little and pull back on the powder charge...they will have a greater chance of not producing collateral damage and still have great terminal effect.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Perhaps if you duplicated the LSWCHP of the .38 Special FBI load but only in .44 Special if that might do what you want. Another idea I have given some thought to is trying Bruce B's soft pointing method with a handgun hollowpoint bullet. Cast the nose in pure lead that you know will expand but with a sturdy base alloy for a foundation. Might even be able to use a nice RFN boolit and drill the cavity if you don't have any HP molds for .44cal. If drilled you could tailor the cavity depth and size to get the result you want. the Maybe it's more effort than it's worth, just an idea that passed through my head and I wanted to give a whirl one of these days if for nothing other than fun/curiosity. Might be just fine with a totally soft bullet without.

Your findings with the Speer & Hornady bullet is one that can happen with any expanding type defensive bullet in the right circumstances.

[shoot-n-lead]

Chris, that is what I am going to do. My 10lb pot, that I will use specifically for this project, came today...and I am ready to start

I am not reinventing the wheel here, lots of folks on here have done this...but I never have.

And, inconsistency has always been the bane of expanding ammo.

[Petrol & Powder]

I agree with you on this...but I know how hard a cast bullet is to stop. I believe there are very effective options for us that are more responsible choices. And, the beauty of cast bullets is that you can tailor a bullet to do pretty much anything, within reason, that you want it to do. So, if I soften my bullets up, lighten them up a little and pull back on the powder charge...they will have a greater chance of not producing collateral damage and still have great terminal effect.

I think that's a responsible way to approach that issue.
I will say that in the area of self-defense with a handgun, I generally want more penetration and not less. The mechanisms involved in stopping a human with a firearm require, at a minimum, for the projectile to at least reach something vital enough to incapacitate the attacker. When constrained by the limited power of a handgun and the fact that the shot presented may not always be a perpendicular, frontal, thorax target; I want the ability to always get that projectile deep enough to work.


I think people have a tendency to seek the perfect mushroomed expanded bullet and the reality is that perfect expanded projectile isn't really key to good stopping performance. I don't care what the spent bullet looks like. I just want it to stop the guy that's trying to hurt me.

[shoot-n-lead]

I think that's a responsible way to approach that issue.
I will say that in the area of self-defense with a handgun, I generally want more penetration and not less. The mechanisms involved in stopping a human with a firearm require, at a minimum, for the projectile to at least reach something vital enough to incapacitate the attacker. When constrained by the limited power of a handgun and the fact that the shot presented may not always be a perpendicular, frontal, thorax target; I want the ability to always get that projectile deep enough to work.


I think people have a tendency to seek the perfect mushroomed expanded bullet and the reality is that perfect expanded projectile isn't really key to good stopping performance. I don't care what the spent bullet looks like. I just want it to stop the guy that's trying to hurt me.

I know what you mean about a perfect mushroom...and I sure ain't fixing to chance that rabbit down a hole. I want some decent expansion and putting a 220gr bullet out there at around 900fps...the penetration will be there...unlike some of the smaller bore concealed carry rounds.

[Petrol & Powder]

44 cal. 220gr., 900fps;
You might be onto something there.

240grain, and a soft alloy, maybe better?

[telebasher]

I have been told that a 38 target wadcutter loaded backwards (with the hollow base facing forward) would be a super defence load in close quarters!
I like a 358091 over 4 gr Bullseye. This will thump nicely. The hollowbase wadcutter will not penetrate, not even a little.

[shoot-n-lead]

44 cal. 220gr., 900fps;
You might be onto something there.

240grain, and a soft alloy, maybe better?

I am going for 220 now, I think we all agree that the 230gr 45acp does a good job...and the .44 has a greater sectional density, the 210-220 should penetrate on par with the 45 caliber 230gr. And, I think that I can play around with the mix and velocity to control the expansion.

[Petrol & Powder]

It's a little heavier than 220gr. but I think with a soft enough alloy (I'm thinking 30:1 lead/tin, maybe even softer) the 429421 would do what you're looking for.

220 gr is still plenty heavy and you might be able to get to 900 fps without exceeding the pathetic pressure limits for SAAMI 44 Special specs. However, with the 245 grain 429421 at 900 fps you would absolutely get the needed penetration and likely some expansion. It might exceed SAAMI specs for 44 Special but in a modern gun you would be fine.

OTOH, you could trade a little weight for speed and go with the 220 grain bullet. That would probably get you within SAAMI specs (or close) at 900 fps. With the right alloy and bullet style you could still get decent penetration.

The 44 Special is a GREAT cartridge but it is severely limited by the artificially low SAAMI specs for 44 Special. In the appropriate gun, 220-250 grain bullet weight at 900 fps is safe and very effective. Unfortunately, it is also beyond the SAAMI specs for 44 Special.

[shoot-n-lead]

My New Vaquero Sheriff...3.75" barrel, prefers bullets about 200-220grains...it wants to spit heavier bullets a little high...this is much to my chagrin as I love the 429421...but it is what it is.

[olafhardt]

I like to think of a 44 wadcutter as a heavy pre-expanded 38. I don't have a 44 so I have no experience with them. When a boolit expands it converts kinetic energy into heat, reducing the ability to penetrate. There is also the increase in drag. No critter is as healthy with a hole all the way through his guts as it was before. I think the cheap round or flat nose or pointed cast or jacketed boolits are about as effective as any other.

[OS OK]

Don't forget this also...we ain't using 'one' perfect round...in self defense you shoot until the perp is down...if you are blessed with steely nerves and calm when all else around you is in chaos...well, that third shot was a head shot. Don't call 911 after that, call the morgue.

[frkelly74]

Not as scientific as the OP in his writing, but in my digging for lead over the years most of the recovered hollow point jacket bullets I have gotten look surprisingly undamaged by their impact with the sand back stop. If they hit a rock that buggers them up but I have on occasion cleaned up the better looking HP bullets recovered and reloaded them just for fun for my 45. I would not buy hollow point bullets for use because in my opinion they are only about as effective as cast that I can make but cost much more. They are for people who don't reload or cast for themselves I guess.

[OS OK]

Verry true, it's disappointing to recover them and discover them looking pristine...gotta heat them up to max velocity if you want expansion.

[Ithaca Gunner]

NOE 434-235-RF HP 216gr. GC HP boolit.

[Petrol & Powder]

Bullet expansion is influenced by multiple factors, not the least of which include what it impacts and how fast was it going.

Again, don't get all wrapped around the axle when looking at spent bullets. A perfect mushroomed hollowpoint is a great marketing tool and they look cool in magazine ads but the final appearance of a bullet has little to do with anything important. Sure, it's nice to dump that energy into the target and it's equally as nice to expand the permanent wound cavity to some size larger than the initial bullet diameter but that final shape is only part of the story.

We can debate for hours (and others have) about: two holes are better than one, energy transfer, penetration and over penetration, how reliably a HP expands, at what velocity will it expand, will it defeat intermediate barriers, blah, blah, blah.....


The ultimate goal in SD use of force involving a firearm is to stop the attack. We don't care if the bad guy dies, lives, is fine but stops his attack, etc. We just want him to stop trying to hurt us.

Comments about head shots to insure the attacker goes to the morgue would be great fodder for a plaintiff's attorney in a civil suit after a shooting, regardless of whether or not the shooting was justified.


Nobody cares if the bullet expands or not or how perfect the mushroomed bullet appeared after the fact.


A bullet that expands and stops in the attacker may be preferable to one that travels through the attacker but at that point the defenders primary concern is stopping the attack.

If someone is charging you with a machete and all you have is a 9mm pistol loaded with round nose FMJ bullets and no avenue of escape, you're still going to shoot that person in an attempt to survive. Over penetration may be a problem but it's not the immediate problem.

[shoot-n-lead]

I revisited this, this morning...bumped the load up .5 gr or about 50fps...and got this repeated result. They all looked very similar to this one and all were within 18grs of the 200gr starting weight...all but one were within 3grs...had one that was 18grs under.

But, I am still going to play with the cast load.

178690

[OS OK]

So, IIRCly now you are around 950 FPS and prolly 9 BHN or a tad less? Were those other mushrooms bent back over the body of the cast like this one? You might be able to drop that .5 increase a couple tenths...just wondering?

One of the fellas suggested filling the HP with silicone or some such soft sealant and testing through layers of denim...I think I'll rig that in front of my test pipe and try that too with the .38 Special.

I tried using 4.8 grains of Unique instead of the Bullseye and got worse results in speed...my 1 7/8's snubby just ain't long enough to get a complete burn so I'm back to the Bullseye at the max of 4.2 grains for these next tests.

I noticed that the test barrel in the load book was a 4" bbl. and they had 5.0 grains of Unique as the max load for the 168 grain SWC...I divided the FPS they recorded of 860 FPS by the 5.0 grains of Unique and came up with an arbitrary number of 172 FPS/ grain of powder...a sort of horsepower rating in my mind that represents after a fashion the rated pressure of that load in that 4" barrel.

Now when I divide the 645 FPS I got out of the 4.8 grain load of Unique I tested, I get 134 FPS/ grain of powder in my 1 7/8" barrel...I think of that as the horsepower I'm getting out of that combination...do you kinda see what I'm getting at? It tells me that for the time the load was actually making pressure in that short barrel it didn't have the length or the quickness to develop enough pressure to drive the cast at what should have been a higher velocity...in other words my horsepower of that load burned in a flash in front of the barrel.

The question I have for the short barrel is this...do you think I can fudge the max load up a bit to increase my FPS/grain rating so long as I don't exceed the original 172 FPS/grain they tested in the 4" barrel?

[shoot-n-lead]

So, IIRCly now you are around 950 FPS and prolly 9 BHN or a tad less? Were those other mushrooms bent back over the body of the cast like this one? You might be able to drop that .5 increase a couple tenths...just wondering?

Those pedals don't wrap around...they just open up...I think the velocity is just about perfect.

That bullet at the top of the pic is from a different test. The side view, is the side of the bullet shown from this morning. This bullet lost almost no weight...it is still right at 200grs.

178727

[OS OK]

It opened up all it had...nothing wrong with that.

Gonna havta change the thread title from 'Failure to Success'.

[Thumbcocker]

Accurate makes a very nice 190 grain button nose wadcutter that likes red dot in .44 special

[sergeant69]

My New Vaquero Sheriff...3.75" barrel, prefers bullets about 200-220grains...it wants to spit heavier bullets a little high...this is much to my chagrin as I love the 429421...but it is what it is.

hang time.

[shoot-n-lead]

hang time.

Bingo!

[Forrest r]

I've showed this picture before it's the latest testing I did with a snubnosed 44spl (bulldog).

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/1c294e6c-d002-4b74-807e-5d6064902af9_zps8worlmj8.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/1c294e6c-d002-4b74-807e-5d6064902af9_zps8worlmj8.jpg.html)

It's hard to beat 2400 in the 44spl, it's also an excellent powder in the 38spl snubnosed p+ loads.

Unique is also 1 heck of a powder in the 44spl. But as the name implies, it is unique to other caliber/bullet combo's. It does extremely well in snubnosed 38spl p+ loads with 125gr bullets. But not so well with 150/170gr bullets in the same snubnosed pistols.

Power pistol is another choice for both calibers with short bbl's. It doesn't do as well with 44spl loads as unique does (close/withing 20fps) but really shines in snubnosed 38spl p+ loads with 150/170gr bullets.

Anyway, I've used/carried a bulldog for 30+ years and in all the load testing with different bullet/powder combo's I've tested. I keep coming back to a 180gr to 220gr lead bullet and 2400.
Buffalo bore makes a 190gr 6bhn gc swc hp that does 1000fps in 2" bbl'd revolvers.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=271

That load posted on the bottom left duplicates their load. That's a h&g 9bhn #142 200gr gc swc hp.
The load on the upper left is my version of the "fbi" 158gr 38spl bullet combined with the buffalo bore's heavy 38spl p+ 1000fps 2"bbl'd load. The fbi 158gr 38spl bullet was a hb (hollow base) swc that was also hollow pointed. My bullet was a 220gr lyman 429422 hollow based swc that I put a cupped hp in using a forster hollow point tool. The end result was a 9bhn 210gr hb swc hp doing 1000fps+ out of a snubnosed 44spl.

Anyway I've always used this simple formula as a starting point for alloys when it comes to hp expansion.
1000fps ='s 1bhn or simply put:
700fps ='s 7bhn
800fps ='s 8bhn
900fps ='s 9bhn

The design of the hp will absolutely affect how the hp performs. More 44cal hp's typically I use:
The penta point hp's ='s 800/100fps
The large round hp's ='s 1000fps/1200fps
The small round hp's ='s 1200fps/1400fps
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/93019292-24db-4523-9b6a-a1e9713f36e8_zpscuaszhrw.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/93019292-24db-4523-9b6a-a1e9713f36e8_zpscuaszhrw.jpg.html)

Another thing to consider is that you will get more velocity from a lead bullet of the same weight compared to a jacketed bullet when using traditional copper jacketed bullets.
The 44spl is 1 of those forgotten calibers that can and will easily rival a full sized 1911 in 45apc. A 210gr bullet doing 1000fps out of a snubnosed revolver is nothing to sneeze at.

[sghart3578]

I shoot one of the new Charter Arms Bulldogs and I love it. I load the Lee 200 gr bullet as cast.

I tried to get the muzzle velocity up there with you guys but after about 800 fps it gets a little hard to hold for me.

I am not recoil sensitive, I regularly shoot Ruger only loads and John Taffin loads in my 45 Colt Vaquero but that little, light framed Bulldog gives me the willies when I try heavier rounds. I also have a 357 mag Charter Arms Mag Pug and I shoot full house magnum loads in it. I think the ported barrrel helps.

I figure 5 200 gr bullets at 750 fps in my 44 Spl should do the trick. I hope.


Steve in N CA

[4given]

I think that this 250 grain full wadcutter from Matt's Bullets or something like it would be just the ticket in 44 special!

http://i.imgur.com/QH2mera.jpg

[4given]

Matt also casts a 185 grain:

http://i.imgur.com/5WYVUIa.jpg

[merlin101]

I think that this 250 grain full wadcutter from Matt's Bullets or something like it would be just the ticket in 44 special!


http://i.imgur.com/QH2mera.jpg
That pic makes it look like a 55gal. drum! Probably hits like one too.

[sergeant69]

is that mold available?? love to cast some

[sergeant69]

I shoot one of the new Charter Arms Bulldogs and I love it. I load the Lee 200 gr bullet as cast.

I tried to get the muzzle velocity up there with you guys but after about 800 fps it gets a little hard to hold for me.

I am not recoil sensitive, I regularly shoot Ruger only loads and John Taffin loads in my 45 Colt Vaquero but that little, light framed Bulldog gives me the willies when I try heavier rounds. I also have a 357 mag Charter Arms Mag Pug and I shoot full house magnum loads in it. I think the ported barrrel helps.

I figure 5 200 gr bullets at 750 fps in my 44 Spl should do the trick. I hope.


Steve in N CA

few years ago i shot a 250 gr keith i cast, loaded for my 629, out of one of my bulldogs just for fun. i was in shock for a week. i got woke up like RIGHT NOW. felt it to my toes.

[4given]

That pic makes it look like a 55gal. drum! Probably hits like one too.

It looks like this one may be it: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=37_206&products_id=2397&osCsid=r8t4uaqu2r85toqqfhmhlf72h2

[rhouser]

Wouldn't that make your brown eyes blue.

I have a selection of 44 mags but have always just used LBT's up to and including 300 gr. I will load to 44 SPC velocities sometime, but, still use the 44 Mag brass to avoid powder ringing my cylinders. I wonder if that flat meplate would feed in my Marlin Lever gun? Like slinging a frying pan.

Cast it in pure soft lead and Powder Coat it to get it down the barrel at about 900 FPS.

Great thread....
thanks rch

[sergeant69]

might make my blue eyes brown. and my pants! gonna find out soon. am casting a few now.

[RogerDat]

Have to wonder if for carry in a revolver extra soft lead especially with PC wouldn't make sense. After all in a SD situation a little leading probably wouldn't matter, if you survive you can chore boy the barrel. Soft lead expands, has more weight for a given size bullet so why not PC some "black" SD rounds out of a softer lead and then have a bunch in other colors of PC that have a bit more alloy for harder bullet used for target practice without leading. Don't really care about expansion in the backstop or on paper. Not going to shoot long range with a Bulldog so any subtle shifts in point of impact should be negligible.

Just wondering. Step son shoots a 44 and has it for home defense.

[leeggen]

This has been kicked around here many times. Penitration is a good thing. Now let,s see if the bad guy is in T shirt and slacks will the prepared boolit go all the way through the bad guy? Now winter in michigan is qiute cold so now the bad guy is wareing T shirt, a flannel shirt, and a carhart jacket, will the prepared boolit even penitrate to the vitals? Every senario is different for us. Will one type/style boolit do for every bad guy senario? Well no but we do the best we can with what we have to fight the bad guy. No one gun, no one boolit nor one powder will do everyones self defense round. HP's at times act like a wide, flat meplit boolit. Other times they will open up and peel back like never seen before.
I don't go to town much so my fight will probably be on the farm with a russeler, yours if you live in town will be on the street. As a store owner yours will probably be in the store. We just have to look at how will we react to our situation.
CD

[olafhardt]

I still maintain that if you put a hole through a critter it will be hurt.