DA Military Pistol

[miestro_jerry]

Folks,

I am a 1911 fan and have been for many years. I shoot the 9mm pistols like the Hi Power, but not a fan of other 9mm pistols.

So if you had to use decide on a DA pistol for military service which one would it be?

1) Baretta 92
2) Sig P220
3) Ruger P345
4) Other

[HeavyMetal]

I voted other!

Two good choices usually overlooked are the Taurus PT 99 (and similar guns) and the CZ 75 / CZ 85 series guns.

These allow a " skilled" shooter to carry "Cocked and Locked" during crisis rather than have to deal with a hammer drop safety while some one shoots at him!

[billyb]

i voted for the 92 i have one shoot a bunch of cast in it i like the gun Bill

[txpete]

first I was still in when we were issued the M-9 and the colts went away:roll:.
I think the 9mm is a poor choice for a military combat round as we are limited to 124 gr fmj hard ball.I have had several friends come back from iraq and stating the lack of power of this round.
since the military doesn't give you a choice on what is issued and I had to carry a 9mm there is only one the CZ75 imho.
pete

[MtGun44]

The biggest problem with the B92 is that darned safety. It works the wrong
way and gets knocked on easily. Proper manual of arms requires two or
three 'safety off' strokes in a presentation to ensure you don't 'fail to go bang'.

Sig is much better, esp .45 ACP which is a bigger deal since the military must
us FMJs.

Bill

[10-x]

Can not understand why they ever changed from the 1911..............just like back in the late 1800's when they went from the 1873 to the .38.....Learned a lession from the huks in the PI's.........same with canteens................some"enlightened idiot" used enamel to coat canteens back then........ever see one that has been dropped? I would not want to drink from it. The military never learns as the USMC had enameled canteens in WWII.
A side arm is a hell of a lot more impotant than a canteen......... but they never learn just as many Veterans from "the Sand Box" will tell you.
The 1911 will never be beat.:Fire:

[NSP64]

I voted other. I would not want anyone to rely on a 9mm.Name another Cal. and do it again.I have owned a cz75, b92and s&w 9mm I only have a .45 now.

[sundog]

I didn't vote, because anything other than a .45acp 1911 is just pissing in the wind.

[cropcirclewalker]

Sorry,

Lay out the DBs from the 1911 and then

lay out the DBs from the rest.

M1911

Is there an alternative?

[txpete]

Can not understand why they ever changed from the 1911..............just like back in the late 1800's when they went from the 1873 to the .38.....Learned a lession from the huks in the PI's.........same with canteens................some"enlightened idiot" used enamel to coat canteens back then........ever see one that has been dropped? I would not want to drink from it. The military never learns as the USMC had enameled canteens in WWII.
A side arm is a hell of a lot more impotant than a canteen......... but they never learn just as many Veterans from "the Sand Box" will tell you.
The 1911 will never be beat.:Fire:


you have to remember that the army hadn't bought any colt 1911's since WWII.alot of them were just worn out.we got stuck with the 9mm because of nato BS.
pete

[NuJudge]

I like the Beretta 92 for shooting, but I don't think I'd like to trust my life to it. I also like the Walther P-38.

CDD

[10-x]

Texpete,

Fully understand that service members usually can not pick their weapon(s).I feel for every one that is forced to carry a 9mm. The .45 may well make a come back as a side arm as many SF units are using H&K's and old 1911's.

Unless a 1911 is completely broken down, worn slam out I would still prefer a "Rattle Battle"over any other.

Most old 1911's if fired from a ransom rest will surprise everyone, remember most firearms are more accurate than the operators.

The un BS with the 9mm is the same scam that the LEAA(Law Enforcement Assistance Administration?) ran on PD's back in the 70's claiming the 9 was better. There are politics thrown in also as the euros have always been in love with the 9 and the lame excuse about ammo.

The .45 is a American "thing" and they just dont get it.

This issue will never be settled as it is based on opinion, perception ,politics,and experience (or lack there of[).

Best way I can put it is.......would you rather hit your enemy with a golf ball or a bowling ball?:drinks:

/SIZE]

[txpete]

yup I agree 110%.if they let the G.I.'s run the army and keep the civi's out of it..... the world would be perfect and our soldiers would be going into harms way with crap.
pete

[Kraschenbirn]

+1 for "other". If I had to go with a DA, it would be an H&K USP. Otherwise, I don't believe I'd feel terribly "undergunned" with 8 rounds of hardball in a 1911.

Bill

[cuzinbruce]

If you like 1911's and .45 ACP and have to have double action, may I suggest a S&W 4506. Double action trigger for the first shot, single action after that. Design is heavily influenced by the 1911, same size magazine, fixed or adjustable sights, stainless, seems pretty reliable. Also was made in a cut down version with a shorter barrel and smaller mag capacity. I like mine.

[GabbyM]

I don't want to stir the 45 VS 9mm debate. I do think the US military should be using the truncated cone flat point bullet the USAF developed for the 9mm when it first came into US service. Which is the Hornady 124gr. TCFP.
They wont meet the Nato pine board penetration test. But neither will the 45 acp.
Plus it's time to forget how they cycle through a WW-2 era blow back SMG.

My vote is for M9. But I"ve never fired a SIG.

Lighter weight is good in a 9mm. I once had a S&W 39-2. Aluminum frame great shooter. Have two heavier 9's now and niether one shoots as well or points nearly as well. They just weigh much more.

[9.3X62AL]

Given the parameters, I think the Glock 21 answers all the questions best of all. 14 rounds out of the gate, 45 caliber, and safe action. Not pretty like a Beretta, not expensive like a SIG, smaller than the HK/23.

9mm only makes sense with better bullets than the M-882 ball now carried by our troops. Why we give a rat's behind about FMJ pistol bullets when our opposition uses IEDs, body-packed Semtex and ball-bearings, and decapitates journalists with swords on al-Jazeera is a question, too.

[crabo]

Don't know if this will post large enough but this says it all for me.

[sundog]

Crabo, crabo..., crabo. Those surely are NOT jacketed bullets in that picture. Are they? Other two choices are very, how shall we say, ... nice, appropriate, tasteful.

[crabo]

Sundog, what can I say? "Oh yeah, that was before I met you guys..."

Maybe I should have just said, "your 9mm may expand, but my 45 will never shrink". How about that?

Crabo

[wolfspotter]

I've had a couple 1911's but my Sig P220 is lighter, more accurate, dependable and easier to field strip and clean.

[Ricochet]

9mm only makes sense with better bullets than the M-882 ball now carried by our troops. Why we give a rat's behind about FMJ pistol bullets when our opposition uses IEDs, body-packed Semtex and ball-bearings, and decapitates journalists with swords on al-Jazeera is a question, too.Because the U.S. and European press would have a field day writing about our troops using "inhumane dum-dum bullets, designed to maximize pain and suffering."

[GabbyM]

The flat points are better suited to combat anyway. You give up to much with a hollow point in a little pistol. this tcfp will blast a larger hole in ballistic clay than a 45 rn ball. Plus it will out penetrate the 45. I'm not saying it's better. Just that it does work. Photo is H&G #309. Camera angle distorts the shape a bit.
You can see this design in many 40 S&W bullets. Lee and Saeco both make one in 45 caliber.

[HeavyMetal]

Crabo:

Ellequintly stated!

[crabo]

Just to add some more perspective from a trainer, from John Farnam, 10 June 08

Sage follow-up comments on the 9mm- and modern times:

From Irv Stone at Bar-Sto Precision, barrel-maker- second to none:

"Recently, we've seen a big increase in 9mm barrel orders here. We have always manufactured and recommended 9mm conversion barrels for the G23, 27, 32, and 33. Nearly any 40S&W pistol can be easily and quickly converted to 9mm, and, with our barrels, they run smoothly and reliably. It's a good option for heavy training, while not beating yourself to death and/or breaking the bank!"

You can get hold of Irv directly at _barsto@eee.org_ (mailto:barsto@eee.org) Recommended!


From my long-time friend and colleague, Claude Werner, at the celebrated
Rogers School:

"Even for men, we advise bringing 9mm handguns to the Rogers School! Many
decline this advice and bring 40s and 357s. More than half of the time, we
are
compelled to provide these same optimists with 9mm loaners, starting with
the third day (five-day Program), just to get them though the balance of the
Course!

As you say, terminal performance with 40s and 357s is surely respectable,
but both are
difficult to train with, particularly in high-volume Courses such as ours.

In fact, no student has ever earned better than a 'Basic' rating' with a
357. Few can do anything better than passable work with it, and I've had to
upgrade my electronic earmuffs just to be around them, so obnoxious is the
'
over-pressure event' (our term for 'concussion') with that caliber.


From my old friend, Dave Spaulding:

"Considering the current shocking disparity in price between 9mm and 40/357,
I have seen many move to the 9mm, just so they can continue to practice with
live ammo!"


From a friend and colleague in the Philippines:

"Particularly for those who live places other than the USA, the 9mm
is
almost always the only viable pistol-caliber choice. However, unlike you spoiled
Americans, those of us from other parts of the world will have to use
hardball ammunition for the foreseeable future, if only because superior ammunition
is unavailable, or restricted by law.

This prison-of-circumstance highlights the importance of being able to
achieve multiple, precise hits on the vital areas of a human target, quickly. When
hardball is all you have, you dare not wager your life away on the unlikely

probability of a one-shot, or two-shot, stop. Rather, a definitive burst of
well-aimed shots will likely be required if the fight is to end quickly, and
in this scenario, a high-capacity 9mm will satisfactorily support the tactic,
assuming the Operator is competent. When we consider that we will not
always have two hands with which to operate the pistol, the 9mm's value becomes
even more evident.

Carrying more ammo than you think you could ever possibly need is also a
capitol idea! Figure on two, spare magazines, and more in your car.

I'm confident the foregoing sounds anything but comforting to many
Operators
in the USA, but, then again, gunfights have never been 'comforting' events,
whether your pistol is loaded with hardball or DPX!"

/John
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[Bret4207]

I'd steal my wifes EAA Witness, the CZ clone. 40, 10mm or 45ACP. Nicest DA full size auto I ever used.

Of course when I read the title I thought '17 Smiff!

[9.3X62AL]

The term "Military" (to me) didn't include 40 S&W, just 9 x 19 or 45 ACP. If we include the 40 S&W, my CZ-75B would go to head of the class. BHP/Commander size and weight, 12 round mag capacity, proven design.

[S.R.Custom]

I've had a couple 1911's but my Sig P220 is lighter, more accurate, dependable and easier to field strip and clean.

What he said.

Now if only Sig would build one that held 15 in the handle, then this story could end happily.

[exile]

Not to be blasphemous, especially since I am new to the "cast boolit" forum and have very little experience with 1911's or the .45 ACP (I love glocks though) but how about the new Glock 21 SF? Seems like a good choice to me, particularly in the sandy environment that most conflicts take place in nowadays. I think it is ridiculous that our politicians cannot see fit to provide our soldiers with firearms that function well in terms of reliability and stopping power. Our guys are forced to look for weapons that were developed before WWII to find something that functions properly. (Not meant to disparage the 1911, but rather the M-16.)The Sig 220 might be a good choice, but I never liked the long trigger reset.

[9.3X62AL]

My nephew appears to be headed back to The Sandbox for a 2nd tour, and plans to carry a P-220 x 45 ACP this trip. His mom/my sister is a range trainer at my old agency, and he grew up around her strong preference for the SIG system. He is comfy with that system, and it isn't my place to question such a personal decision. He gave my Glock 21 a test drive, and liked it a lot--but all those years of SIG-Sauer left an impression.

Both systems work VERY well, as does the 1911A1. Truth to tell, I haven't seen a "bad" choice in this entire thread.

[NSP64]

Maybee the millitary should provide a 'gun of choice' to the soldiers. Give them a list of authorized guns and let them choose/qualify with the one that fits them.:drinks: