Case filler/over powder filler

[bigted]

Well have wrestled with different fillers over the years and never been completely Satisfied with the run of the mill stuff. Friend uses packing peanuts to pretty good use. I have tried the pillow fill/polyester for fill but hate the big wad of **** that blows out with the shot.

Setting here eatin my lunch ... Munching cheese puffs and digging it out of my teeth ... I had an astonishing thought (maybe already covered) why not use these cheesy morsels as a filler?

They are light, fluffy, would fill a giant area in a big case, and I doubt that it will leave any residual crud in the bore.

What say Yee? Anybody tried these tasty Goody's for a filler substance? ... Thoughts?

[Outpost75]

Why do you need to use a filler at all? Are you loading less than a full case of black?

In what cartridge?

If using smokeless powder, if a propellant requires use of an inert filler to produce acceptable ballistic uniformity, that is an indicator that the particular powder is unsuited for those conditions of loading and that you should be using something else.

More specifics would help, but I ask again WHY????

[RPRNY]

Why do you need to use a filler at all? Are you loading less than a full case of black?

In what cartridge?

If using smokeless powder, if a propellant requires use of an inert filler to produce acceptable ballistic uniformity, that is an indicator that the particular powder is unsuited for those conditions of loading and that you should be using something else.

More specifics would help, but I ask again WHY????

Excellent points.

If topping up a BPC, it seems unlikely that cheese puffs would do the trick. Unless powdered, they would not fill the void or would leave space.Corn meal works very well as it has a similar consistency to BP and will solidly fill any void.

If intended with smokeless, in addition to the excellent points raised above, how big a case are we talking about that they could take cheese puffs? Short of mousefart loads for the 50 BMG, I'm having a hard time envisaging a case in which cheese puffs would be a viable space filler? ;-)

[bigted]

Lol ... 45-70, 43 spanish , 45 colt ... All with small doses of smokeless powder. Yes i like messin with status quo but then WHY NOT? I have various reasonsfor my madness

[RPRNY]

Well, I can't see cheese pufs working unless powdered. Dacron puffs at least hold the majority of the smokeless in place towards the base like a wad. I can't see cheese puffs doing it. But there should be no objection to the puff material itself. Might even smell nice !

[Kestrel4k]

[...] I doubt that it will leave any residual crud in the bore.
I'm to understand that you'd be using the noncorrosive variety that doesn't contain sodium chloride yes?

[Chill Wills]

The uneatable and uniform version of Cheese Puffs is called Floral Foam. :mrgreen: It is green, cheap, 99.9% air and very easy to work with. It is sold in blocks in the floral dept. of Walmart and other fine stores.
178651

You cut the block into flat pieces the thickness you intend to use. Often I start with a caliber thick piece.
I set the fence on my bandsaw for the thickness I want and it takes about 30 seconds to cut the whole package. There are other good ways of cutting the slabs also.

Like polyester Dacron fiber this has no weight and just keeps the charge back near the primer same as shooting the full moon at midnight would. This is a mainstay loading practice in many circles including Schuetzen and I was introduced and mentored in its use by my shooting partner, Jack Odor about 15 years ago.
Once you have your case filled with powder, just press the foam over the case mouth cutting the disk and seat bullet.

One would always start low and work up your load - like anything we do.

[bigted]

That is awsome. Never considered the floral foam. Bet it is the shis nis.

Heck i may need to play with my 45-120 some more. Do this work with blackpowder as well?

[bigted]

Thanks for all the suggestions

[Lead pot]

Using that Floral foam will make Chuck E Cheese happy :)

[Outpost75]

Lol ... 45-70, 43 spanish , 45 colt ... All with small doses of smokeless powder. Yes i like messin with status quo but then WHY NOT? I have various reasons for my madness


OK, now we are getting somewhere. A bulky, fast-burner, like Red Dot is your friend here and will work well in all of those.

In the .45 Colt I have gotten best accuracy with 6.5 grains of Bullseye, which I bought when I ran out of the Red Dot I had used for years. [6.5 grains of Red Dot in .45 Colt is also best]. Using less than 6.5 grains of Bullseye in the .45 Colt velocities were less uniform. Accuracy, while acceptable, was not quite as good as 6.5 grains, which proved to be the most accurate load in my Colt New Service M1909 as well. Below are summary results of my .45 Colt load development fired with Bullseye in the H&R Handi-Rifle, bullets as-cast, unsized .455" from COWW, lubricated with LSStuff 45-45-10, Starline cases, Remington 2-1/2 primers:

H&R .45 Colt 20" Classic Carbine, iron sights off sandbags

Saeco #954 230-grain FN_______ 5x5 shot groups 50 yds.
__________________Velocity_______Avg. ES
6.0 Bullseye________971 fps, 28 Sd__2.18
6.5 Bullseye________ 1125, 8 Sd_____1.63
7.2 Bullseye________ 1184, 4 Sd_____2.24

Saeco #955 255-grain FN
6.0 Bullseye_________862, 42 Sd____3.11
6.5 Bullseye________ 1093, 7 Sd_____2.08
7.2 Bullseye________ 1149, 9 Sd _____2.6

Old Western factory 255-grain Lubaloy from the 1950s averaged 1057 fps and 3.5" for five consecutive 5-shot groups fired off sandbags at 100 yards, which is a good benchmark for a .45 Colt carbine.

[bigted]

So am I correct in thinking that the floral foam would work with black power? I wouldn't mind playing with the huge 45-120 case again but the Hummer is both very hungry and gets tired of my shoulder in a hurry. It is housed in a snazzy Shiloh so either I get it rebarreled to a cal that is more user friendly ... Or figure out some loads that I can handle. Selling is not in the cards as of now.

[bigted]

Thank-you Outpost75. That is helpful info and thanks for sharing that.

[Nobade]

If you used more than just a thin sheet of floral foam I would be concerned with ringing the chamber. Think about what would happen at the shot - that foam will collapse instantly, and the mass of the powder behind it would have a significant amount of inertia. The bullet would bump up, but a lot of that power might get expended outward instead of forward and cause a ring. I couldn't guarantee that would happen, but it would be a strong consideration of mine if I was tempted to do something like that. Now cream 'o' wheat, on the other hand, is not going to compress much and can be used to take up space otherwise occupied by gunpowder. You can either use it as a filler by itself, or you can even mix it with your powder to make it less powerful by weight if you feel so inclined.

-Nobade

[Chill Wills]

So am I correct in thinking that the floral foam would work with black power? I wouldn't mind playing with the huge 45-120 case again but the Hummer is both very hungry and gets tired of my shoulder in a hurry.

Ted, I have zero experience and no knowledge of using floral foam with BP. I bet someone has but I am not the right guy.

I mostly shoot BP in everything, mostly, but all my chambers are on the small side compared to that big 3-1/4 inch 45. You already know the normal ways to tame them so I won't wear you out with that.

I have some old 1Fg Elephant powder, which might be the weakest powder ever made! If we lived close I would gift it to you. A full load of that in your 120 still might not = a 45-70 velocity with regular BP. Bullets powdered by 1F Elephant can't even get out of their own way.

I have never tried to use non- powder filler like cornmeal. I just shot the big ones I own when I needed a big rifle:)

If the rifle is a safe queen and you truly want to shoot the rifle lot more than you are but, the case is too much of a good thing, consider a barrel lining - it is a good, accurate, less expensive way to go.

Good luck

[JSnover]

I used Floral foam with light smokeless loads in a 45-70 a few years ago and had no trouble. Then I gave it up for BP.

[bigted]

Chills ... Got ahold of Shiloh few years ago and they quoted me 550 dollars to rebarrel and send back ... Since i no longer have the nice AK wages i have a bit of aproblem finding extra funds. Prolly should trade it for what would work for me but i gotta get the rite mind set to be able to let it go ... We have a little history together.

Still n all ... May need to try small doses of white powder with the floral foam or my normal corn meal/cream o wheat fillers. The corn meal smells great when shot n makes me hungry tho :drinks:

[Boolit_Head]

A lot of shotgun loaders use a cheerio when needed to fill out the load. I've tried it and it works well. Plus side is you get a snack on your loading bench while loading. :)

[Mr Humble]

1. Switch to Trail Boss
2. If using low bulk powders, I use COARSE Cuban style ground corn meal. Works very well, smells good and gently scrubs the bore.

[Old Coot]

Have the barrel set back and re-chambered to 45-70. It should make the rifle a lot more pleasant to shoot. Brass should be cheaper, and it won't cost $$$$ 550 either.
Brodie

[Chill Wills]

Have the barrel set back and re-chambered to 45-70. It should make the rifle a lot more pleasant to shoot. Brass should be cheaper, and it won't cost $$$$ 550 either.
Brodie

Hey Old Coot, Yep, if it weren't a Sharps, that is what would have been first on the list. If you own a sharps, look at the barrel next to the receiver. If it does not have a tulip but has a Hartford collar, you can set it back but if the rear barrel flairs into the tulip, the forearm is not set up for it, you have a large hole. The wood and barrel aren't a match anymore.

Ted, I have regretted almost every firearm I have ever sold! Just hold on to that rifle. There is a gentleman on here, John Taylor and (his place is in the North West, maybe close enough to you to drive) he relines barrels. I hear he is good and reliable. The cost may be about half the price of a new one. Those large cases you have for the 45-120 bring a good price even used. I don't know how many you have. They could offset a little of the Smithing cost and take some of the sting out of it.

[country gent]

What about going the old way and fiting a tube into the cases from just beow the bullet and to the case head. These could be glued in, lightly pressed in place or installed and a channelure rolled to hold them in place. SOme of the modern plastics may make a long lasting sleeve. A section of .410 shotshell might press in snug and take alot of spce away. This would be like the 45-70 carbine load with the 405 grn bullet and 55 grns of powder. It might do just what you want

[Boolit_Head]

That sounds like it could come out upon firing and lodge in the barrel.

[Huvius]

In my experience, the best case filler for reduced smokeless loads is foam backer rod.
It is the foam coil sold in hardware stores to press into gaps around windows and door jambs.
It is cheap, weighs nothing, comes in three or four diameters so fits snugly into the case and is easily cut to length.
In the 45-120 start with about 40-45grs of 4198 and fill the space with backer rod to the base of your boolit.

I have also worried about ringing chambers but I am shooting only lead with no crimp in reduced loads and my theory is that for a filler to advance toward the base of the boolit with enough energy to ring the chamber, the boolit would have to be pretty immobile for that split second before moving down the bore. I've never had any issues - knock on wood...

[bigted]

I have never had an issue with a rung chamber either ... Don't want to either.

Yes my 120 barrel has the Hartford ring on the breech end of the heavy oct barrel ... So setting it back should present no particular problem except for having to re d&t new forearm holes and moving the spring mount for the 74 action.

Boolit head ... Great avatar bubba. Gotta gawk Everytime I see it. NICE!!!

My main thrust now is putting together a barrel for the Encore. She will be a 45 Colt chamber and fairly tight to do spme smokeless patching for.

[Mr Humble]

This is beyond STUPID. I have a 450 3&1/2" Nitro Express. It's a HUGE bottle neck case and works just fine with light loads, 300 gr cast boolits and my coarse cornmeal filler. Don't screw up a nice rifle, just try what actually works for me.

178799
178800

[Nobade]

Now that's a rifle and cartridge!

[sharps4590]

Has no one read the series of articles by Sherman Bell in DGJ about pressure testing with fillers and/or Wrights book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" and the loads pressure tested by Kynoch and Birmingham Proof House? Corn meal, Cream of Wheat, cork wads and other fillers of that type raised pressures the most, sometimes to dangerous levels. Dacron, Kapok, open cell foam and of all things cotton balls, either gave a pressure readings similar to or below normal loads. I don't recall Styrofoam peanuts being tried but would expect them similar to open cell foam. I don't believe chamber ringing an issue with any of the fillers Wright and Bell found pressure acceptable. It's a fact I haven't rung a chamber yet in 50 years of reloading and using fillers.

I know for a fact corn meal WILL solidify into a solid plug and in a bottleneck case is dangerous. I didn't shoot any, thankfully, but when I pulled the bullets after 10-15 years of them being loaded I had to pick the corn meal out of the case. I don't know what would have happened had I fired any.

[rmcc]

I use corn meal in a 40/82 Winchester, works well.

[303Guy]

I have played with wheat bran and wheat germ as a filler in a bottle neck case. Both of these raise chamber pressure but wheat germ the least. Wheat germ works better in a bottle neck because it flows better and doesn't leave a ring of itself behind the shoulder.

I did find that light loads of bulky shotgun powder with wheat bran caused high pressure in the neck area. I know this because the neck would expand into rust pits which doesn't happen with normal full pressure loads. This while the primer flattening indicates low pressure.

[Mr Humble]

Well, I don't load cast boolits and let them sit for 15 years. The Cuban style cornmeal is very coarse and works better (accuracy) than the fine American stuff. Dacron also works fine but it's a pain to make those balls, stuff in the case and pack down with a stick. Coarse cornmeal works fine thru a Lyman 55 measure.