Design Questions

[pjh421]

Hi All,

I was just toying with the bullet mould design software at mountainmolds.com, trying to come up with a good, short-range .44 caliber defense boolit to be fired from a Smith 329 PD (only comes in 4 inch). I like the 300-grain weight range and the tangential ogive profile like the WFN’s and Lee’s 310-grain. I’m not trying to drill one-hole groups at 100 yards or anything like that. While I don’t enjoy being bludgeoned by guns, I don’t really mind recoil of this level since this isn’t intended to be a plinker either. I’ll load it up to a speed I can handle and stop there.

Right now it looks like a plain base WW bullet with a single lube groove for less hassle in the Star die I’m going to ask Buckshot to make, two driving bands, a .350 length nose and an 80% meplat. I could be convinced to reduce that to 70% for ease of loading via speedloader though. I think this is a really cool boolit but I’ve only shot standard designs up to this point so feel free to poke holes in my theories. I’m hoping that at the speeds I can expect to launch these boolits, they won’t fly like bumblebees. The software asks for a 1 in 27” twist and we all know Smiths have a 1 in 18 & ¾”. I don’t see why I couldn’t get an honest 900 fps or more from that stubby tube. I welcome your comments before I hit the “buy” button.

On a totally unrelated note, when I was figuring out the dimensions of the swage dies for my .308 as I spoke with Dave Corbin some years ago, the idea was to keep the bullet design balanced, that is, half nose and half body. Out of curiosity I applied that philosophy to the design of the above-mentioned boolit and by adjusting the requested weight and meplat percentage, I was able to get the nose section length to within .003” of the length of the body section. This created a problem as I noticed Dan’s software warning me of “the dreaded shrunken bullet syndrome” which ostensibly yields poorly filled out boolits. Apparently the nose has to be shorter. I have gotten poorly filled out boolits before but corrected the problem by heating the mould and or alloy to a higher temp and by cleaning vent lines as well as degreasing the mould.

I’m not trying to get a mould like this made. I was just curious as to what would happen in terms of accuracy with a balanced lead boolit if someone would care to comment. The Loverin designs were remarkable in that they all had a long bearing surface and a stubby nose and that is kind of what I was trying to accomplish with the first design I mentioned.

Paul

[Bass Ackward]

Paul,

You sound like you already have a handle on what you want. The accuracy questions only the gun can answer.

There are two ways to eat up twist rate. 1, Bullet weight / length. And 2, wide meplat.

If the twist rate becomes too slow, then velocity has to increase to stabilize. With that platform, I .... don't .... think you want to have to push the design. So if you can rationalise the smaller meplat in your mind, then I would do so. Just because of the weight of the gun. It can handle the pressure, but the bumblebees you are worried about will be in your hand. :grin:

I would go with the 70% and simply adjust the purchase for the larger blocks to minimize heat problems and hit send when you are ready. I also have had my greatest flexibility in 44s with 280 grain bullets for what ever that's worth.

Although my first recommendation would really be to buy and try the 300 Lee for $20. You can always turn around and sell that mold here for $10. Are the real answers to your questions worth $10 to ya? Or do you prefer your and my guesses? :grin:

[Lloyd Smale]

What are you defending yourself from. If its humans you surely dont need a 300 grain bulllet and overpenetration might be a consern. If its large animals Id opt for a lfn that penetrates a tad big better. At self defense ranges just about any bullet will fly fine. Its when you stretch it out to over 200 yards that bad flying bullets really show. A wfn will be tough to make fly out there. Some have done it but in my opinion theyve got lucky with there bullet design as most dont. I guess mysel if i was working up a load for defense agains man and beast in a 44 id probably load a 250 grain swc or lfn at about a 1000 fps and would feel confortable that it would take care of about any situation. Ive killed alot of game with loads like that in 44s and 45s.

[44man]

I agree with Lloyd and Bass. With the short barrel I would not go too heavy because you will have trouble loading hot enough for stability and recoil will be high. But as Lloyd stated, up close doesn't matter.
You sure do not want that type boolit for a carry gun either, only for big game, not humans. Those big boolits will go through a man, your whole house and destroy your car in the drive, or kill a neighbor.
I have shot them through 16" trees! :coffee:

[HeavyMetal]

If your looking for something a little different in a mold for your 44 you might want to take a look at group buy running right now.

It's a modification of the old Lyman 429303. It's listed as PSW44 and should have a drawing of the final design. All that's been done is add a little weight and get rid of the gas check.

I had an original 429303 and was real happy with it. Now have an NEI version and shoot it as well But gas checks a pain in the Star sizer. The pointed design is supposed to transfer "energy" as well as a flat point and will be a lot easier to speed load.

I have not shot "game" with this boolit yet but I have busted some water bottles and muddy areas with impressive results.

Check it out it may be what your looking for.

[45r]

I got a 280 grain GC OGF mold from him with a 73% metplat and a .4 inch long nose and it is very accurate.2 inch groups at 50 yards are common with my S&W PC Hunter.My RCBS 240GC will do as well with less recoil.I've heard that handloads are frowned upon in court cases.I have 200 XTP's going 1080 fps in my Kimber 45 acp for self-defence.They shoot 3 inch groups at 50 yards and I like that a lot.I think cast boolits would over-penetrate and not be the best application for self-defence purposes.There are no second place winners in a gun fight.You need all the advantages you can get to win.If it were me I'd load it with 200 grain HP's for stopping power and fast follow up shots.Don't count on one shot to always work.

[pjh421]

Thanks for all the replies. They kind of help flesh-out the idea. I originally began with 280 grains as the desired weight and will probably settle on that. I'm not real worried about over-penetration. Inside the house I rely on a 12 gauge pump and #8 shot "so I don't kill my car". That's a valid consideration, 44 Man. On the other hand, when I'm out and about, I want a gun that will actually be with me and not left in the car, etc. That's why I like the Airlite series. The .44 Magnum is my all-time favorite cartridge. I've got/had bigger stuff but it is so much more versatile for my needs.

If I am forced to pull a handgun on someone or something, I will shoot to kill with the first and any subsequent rounds...the fewer the better. When the first body drops it often has a chilling effect on the motivation of the additional assailants. I won't pull it out unless I need to fire it but that's a topic for another thread. I like the idea of a bit more weight in the boolit for the extra penetration. You never know what you're going to have to shoot through, etc. You can't pick the conditions. However you can always make the decision to not shoot.

I will check the PSW44 you mentioned, heavy Metal, but after my experience with a certain Lee 9mm 6 banger in 1995 I am reluctant to go that route. Bass Ackwards, I just love those cast iron blocks! Its hard to not get a good casting with iron.

Lloyd---That's just it. I don't know what I'll be defending against but I want to be ready (use enough gun). The big meplat transfers energy well. Whether it does it to a large degree better than the LFN is conjecture. I just don't know. More penetration is addressed, I believe, by the greater than normal boolit weight. You are probably right about the 250 grain SWC or LFN at 1000 fps being adequate and I will certainly take this under consideration.

45r, the reduction of weight to 200 grains for quicker recovery is a valid theory and in a .45 ACP might even help with over penetration. But that comes at a cost. I want one gun I can carry all the time and be ready for anything I would likely encounter. I am absolutely sold on the DA revolver as the platform I want to stake my life on. 200 grains just seems a little light to me.

Thanks everyone who responded! I have a lot more to think about now.

Paul

[HeavyMetal]

Next week end, after I find, or buy, my 44 gas checks I plan on making a run of the NEI mold I currently have. Plan on testing against the PSW44 if it gets ordered.

If you want some I would be more than happy to send up 50 or so for you to try out. This won't help with old issues and sour molds but it will let you try out an idea without spending any money.

PM me if your interested.