.22 rimfire alternative

[NavyVet1959]

Last time I bought .22LR ammo, it was around $7-8 for a brick of 500 (Remington and Federal promo loads). It seems that .22LR ammo is just not to be found at Wal-mart these days and when it is found, it's probably 3 times that price.

So, what if there was a way that you could still shoot some of your .22LR firearms, but with just a bit more effort, but quite a bit cheaper than buying commercial ammo these days? Would you be interested?

I've done a bit of research and spoken with a distributor for the powder loads that are manufactured for things like shooting nails and fasteners into concrete, starter gun blanks, or retriever dog device launches. These are the same as a .22LR piece of ammo, but do not have a projectile. Instead of a projectile, the end is crimped. They look like this:

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/da/da6c4078-557a-4c02-b0c1-77b5094bd253_400.jpg

I had noticed that even though .22LR has not been readily available over the last 8 years, the powder loads have still been available at Home Depot and such. So, I did a bit of searching and found a company that manufactures those powder loads. It took a month of going back and forth and being transferred from one person to another and long delays between sending an email and receiving a reply, but FINALLY, I got a quote on what the powder loads would cost if bought in 50K quantity (i.e. 500 boxes of 100 each).

It works out to be a $2.65 per box of 100.

So, that's $26.50 per 1000 which is about what we pay for just primers for our centerfire reloadings. That's $13.25 for the 500-round brick price, so it's a little more than what we used to pay, but with how much the dollar has decreased in value over the last 8 years, that's probably not unreasonable.

If you figure $1 per pound for lead, then 500 40gr bullets would be an additional $2.86. So, now we're up to $16.11. If you were shooting 55gr bullets, it would be $3.93 per 500 bullets or a total of $17.18.

Some people have bullet traps, so the effective cost of the bullets themselves would be pretty close to ZERO for them.

These powder loads come in various load numbers/colors -- #1 - #6 (gray, brown, green, yellow, red, purple).

http://www.ramset.com/portals/0/Images/products/Accessories/Powder%20Loads/graph.jpg

Some of these might be a bit much for some .22LR firearms. On the other hand, I think it would be possible to build an adapter for a firearm chambered in .223 that had an offset hole (because of the rimfire primer) for one of these powder loads in the base and still allowed a cast bullet to be inserted between the neck and the rifling lands. This could easily handle even the highest (i.e. purple) powder loads.

If you had a .22LR revolver, I'm thinking that you could load it like a cap and ball revolver and you would have a full cylinder of rounds that you could fire as fast as you could pull the trigger.

Now, there have been a few people on YouTube who have experimented with these powder loads in firearms, but they have been using them with .22 airgun pellets. Although they are getting impressive velocities out of them, when they exceed what the pellet can handle, the result is often the skirt of the pellet remaining in the barrel with the rest of the pellet exiting. Subsequent rounds usually don't chamber.

So, what do ya'll think? If you could get these powder loads in that quantity for that price, would you consider using that for your .22 shooting? I haven't decided yet, but I'm tempted...

[Traffer]

Very interesting idea. Have you ever taken one apart to see if there is a wad in there or measured the powder? I have been reloading 22lr now for about a year. I am getting better at it but it is still a painstakingly slow process. Anyway, if a person could figure a way to put a bullet in or on those things it would be an interesting project. Maybe you could talk those people into selling just primed brass without the crimp. That would make the process easier, I would think.

[mcdaniel.mac]

I shoot .22 all suppressed, except for one .22 rifle (15-22) that I haven't had threaded yet. For the time it would take to load cap-and-ball .22, I'd just as soon order a case of .22. Have you tried pricing 50k of .22?

[NavyVet1959]

I shoot .22 all suppressed, except for one .22 rifle (15-22) that I haven't had threaded yet. For the time it would take to load cap-and-ball .22, I'd just as soon order a case of .22. Have you tried pricing 50k of .22?

i don't think this company makes regular ammunition. This is an overseas company, but I'm supposedly currently dealing with their sole US distributor.

I think the time to load it would only be prohibitive if it was being shot in a semi-auto. For a break action, it would be nearly as fast. Open up the gun, drop a bullet in until it hits the lands, maybe tamp it a bit, then put the powder load behind it.

[Ola]

What company is it?

If I recall correctly, I have couple of similar looking powder loads that were made by CCI.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There has been a great deal on this subject on previous threads, by people who have already done it. If you do a search on eBay for "nail-gun" you will find enough names to send you to their websites. There aren't many of the cartridges you find on eBay UK, maybe because of eBay or postal regulations, but the names should be enough to put you on the track of the measurements.

[jmorris]

I have done it with pellets and got over 2000 fps with the "weak" ones once I got to #4 it melted the pellet.

I would be a little worried about pressure using heavy bullets myself. Someone with some time and Quickload could shed some more light on the subject.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/IMG_20141018_123047_071_zps959ad9ff.jpg

[merlin101]

It's an interesting idea but IMHO just not worth the time and effort in my case.
Your situation I'm sure is different.

[Walkingwolf]

It's an interesting idea but IMHO just not worth the time and effort in my case.
Your situation I'm sure is different.

Same for me, I have little use for .22 outside plinking, small game and pest control I use a magnum air rifle. Much of our plinking/handgun training is done with gas airsoft pistols. They are fun, and safe, and no need for going to a range, unless they are illegal in your community.

IIRC 5000 6mm plastic BBs was around 20 bucks, and propane cost is minimal. At ten yards accuracy is acceptable for metal pie plates. Ten yards no sights(point shooting) is most of our shooting.

The rest of our firearm needs are filled with centerfire pistols, and rifles made affordable with reloading.

[NavyVet1959]

What company is it?

If I recall correctly, I have couple of similar looking powder loads that were made by CCI.

The photo I posted was just one from the web to show what I was talking about, not from the actual company itself. The manufacturer is in China, IIRC.

[gnoahhh]

An interesting idea. The only little things I would want to know is how consistent the powder charges are (no point in it if charges wander all over the map and accuracy follows it there), and secondly, as touched upon above, is if there are wads inside the cartridges to hold the powder back against the bottom of the case. If wads are present, it follows that one would risk ringing one's chamber, no?

[NavyVet1959]

and secondly, as touched upon above, is if there are wads inside the cartridges to hold the powder back against the bottom of the case. If wads are present, it follows that one would risk ringing one's chamber, no?

Would it? Do shotgun chambers get ringed?

[mcdaniel.mac]

You'd be slowed significantly with anything magazine fed. Revolver or single shot wouldn't be too bad, but I'd worry that you'd need more careful seating, which slows things down. As mentioned, the charge consistency would also be important.

I don't think I'd buy 50k, but a few boxes might make a fun winter project, especially with a top-break revolver.

[dverna]

I like outside the box thinking!!

I have mousephart loads for my .38 Spl revolvers and rifles so these hold little interest for me.

[Baja_Traveler]

I'd be much more interested if they would supply just primed uncrimped cases.


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[NavyVet1959]

You'd be slowed significantly with anything magazine fed. Revolver or single shot wouldn't be too bad, but I'd worry that you'd need more careful seating, which slows things down. As mentioned, the charge consistency would also be important.

I don't think I'd buy 50k, but a few boxes might make a fun winter project, especially with a top-break revolver.

I'm thinking that seating could be made consistent by creating a "T" profiled bar that would seat to a specific depth when fully inserted to the hat of the "T".

A top break revolver or single shot handgun would make it easy. Even something with a removable cylinder like the NAA mini revolvers would work pretty good with this procedure. In some ways, it's kind of like the NAA "Companion" (cap and ball) revolver. Instead of loading a precussion cap, powder, and a bullet, you would just be loading the bullet and putting the .22 rimfire powder load cartridge behind it.

[NavyVet1959]

I like outside the box thinking!!

I have mousephart loads for my .38 Spl revolvers and rifles so these hold little interest for me.

I also have low velocity .38 / .357 loads, but it seems that this would have the ability to be even cheaper for someone to shoot.

[Multigunner]

In Mexico where they've had strict gun laws concerning rifled fire arms they have marketed rifles that use .22 blank cartridges to propel .177 caliber projectiles.

I have an old .177 rifled steel barrel liner I've been contemplating using for some as yet in decided project of this sort. Not sure if I'll build a rifle or a pistol with this. A .22 rifle with badly corroded bore might be relined to .177.

I've been wondering if this sort of set up could be used to build a legal cane gun. Some have built cane guns using airgun mechanisms and these seem to be exempt from regulations, though I don't know for sure just how this works so I'll have to do some research.
I also have a chamber from a multi pump pneumatic that looked like it could be precharged and used as a power source, a simple linear hammer mechanism being all that would be required.
Pneumatic cane guns have been built in the past in calibers as big as .75 and with lethal power levels.
A .177 cane gun would be more of a novelty.

When I was a youngster I fired .22 airgun pellets from a Remington No.4 rolling block using the short crimped blank gun blanks.

I picked up a full 100 round box of nail gun cartridges at a yardsale for $2. I found these were too big in diameter to fit an old blank pistol I picked up used decades earlier for $5. Not sure if the blank gun is an off brand using a smaller than average blank or if the blanks are larger than .22. They may fit my .22 WMRF revolver.

IIRC the casings of nailgun blanks are sometimes a bit thick and some don't seal the chamber very well when fired.

[richhodg66]

I bought some of these from Menards and then was told not to try it. Here's what I've thought lately;

Use those blanks as primed brass. Cut them off, figure out what a decent level charge is and either assemble ammo or breach seat a cast bullet and load one of these behind it with the right charge. I cast for .22 centerfires and a gas check design without the check just might take the place of a healed bullet the .22 LR uses.

Personally, I found it easier to get a .22 Hornet and develop light cast loads. For small game, they are better and more accurate than .22 LR anyway. For lighter work, I picked up an old Sheridan Blue Streak.

[Jniedbalski]

There is a sub caliber adapter that use the 22 blanks called the game getter.I thank they are made in canada. He can make them in a lot of differnt calibers.i was looking at the 303 British and 7.62x54R. I thank the lower power loads worked the best the brown ones and green ones. You load the back of the game getter with a power load 22 that is off set in a special made shell then load the front of the shell with a sized round ball ,sizer included in the kit . I would included the link but I don't know if it's allowed on this site. I thank the lowest power load was 500/600 fps for the 7.62x54r and round ball. They are supposed to make good 25 yard plinker loads

[Jniedbalski]

The sub adaptor is called Hammond game getter

[GhostHawk]

In my case much easier to use .223, 9mm, 7.62x39 or .357 handi rifle with zero danger.
Cheaper to load than most .22lr if you cast your own boolits and use inexpensive shotgun powders at low levels.

With slow speeds you can leave off the gas check.

[gnoahhh]

Would it? Do shotgun chambers get ringed?

Of course not. A shotshell is a tightly compacted package- no chance of a wad of some sort to get a "running start" before impinging upon a projectile, and thence creating the ring in the chamber wall adjacent to the impact point. Hence my question "is there wad inside the cartridge?" - And if so, is it down low in the case where it can get a running start before impinging on the bullet seated ahead of and separate from the case?

Breech seating a "normal" chamber such as a .32-40 is done by putting a wad flush in the case mouth to hold whatever level powder charge is beneath it. The wad is thence buttressed against the base of the pre-seated bullet or very close to it and doesn't have a chance at that running start.

[Ola]

(This might be considered OFF TOPIC, but might also considered interesting.)

Couple little stories concerning these power loads:

Some years ago a local gun rag had an article where they tried to explode the famous Ruger MKII pistol. "Can it really take anything? Is it really unbreakable?" They used lot's of these power loads to propel stuff out of the barrel. Like steel cleaning rods, drill bits etc. The barrel was of course damaged and some little parts like extractor went missing but they just could not break the pistol. The reason is the case: if there is excessive pressure, the case will rupture and release the pressure to the rear.

Another one:

Lapua ammunition factory explosion is said to be caused by super fast powder used in POWER LOADS. When that powder ignited in the loading machine, it burned so fast at by-passed all the safety measures and reached the "powder magazine" they had upstairs.. This is what happened after that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapua_Cartridge_Factory_explosion

[NavyVet1959]

There is a sub caliber adapter that use the 22 blanks called the game getter.I thank they are made in canada. He can make them in a lot of differnt calibers.i was looking at the 303 British and 7.62x54R. I thank the lower power loads worked the best the brown ones and green ones. You load the back of the game getter with a power load 22 that is off set in a special made shell then load the front of the shell with a sized round ball ,sizer included in the kit . I would included the link but I don't know if it's allowed on this site. I thank the lowest power load was 500/600 fps for the 7.62x54r and round ball. They are supposed to make good 25 yard plinker loads

I found their webpage (http://www3.telus.net/gamegetter). That's very similar to what I was talking about, but instead of actually loading the projectile in the adapter, I was thinking more along the line of inserting it in the chamber as a separate operation. Something like was done with the 16" projectiles on the Iowa-class battleship's guns.

[NavyVet1959]

Of course not. A shotshell is a tightly compacted package- no chance of a wad of some sort to get a "running start" before impinging upon a projectile, and thence creating the ring in the chamber wall adjacent to the impact point. Hence my question "is there wad inside the cartridge?" - And if so, is it down low in the case where it can get a running start before impinging on the bullet seated ahead of and separate from the case?

Breech seating a "normal" chamber such as a .32-40 is done by putting a wad flush in the case mouth to hold whatever level powder charge is beneath it. The wad is thence buttressed against the base of the pre-seated bullet or very close to it and doesn't have a chance at that running start.

It is my understanding that the brass is crimped and it appears that the paint on the end of the crimp that indicates the powder level also seals the crimp so that no powder can come out. I won't know for certain unless I get one of them and dissect it. Since some of the tools that use these powder loads have a captive bolt, I would think that if it had any wad in there, it would gum up the workings eventually.

[NavyVet1959]

Couple little stories concerning these power loads:

Some years ago a local gun rag had an article where they tried to explode the famous Ruger MKII pistol. "Can it really take anything? Is it really unbreakable?" They used lot's of these power loads to propel stuff out of the barrel. Like steel cleaning rods, drill bits etc. The barrel was of course damaged and some little parts like extractor went missing but they just could not break the pistol. The reason is the case: if there is excessive pressure, the case will rupture and release the pressure to the rear.


I have one of those with the 10" bull barrel. If you look at how thick that barrel is, you have to wonder if it is even possible to put enough powder in a .22LR case to cause damage to that barrel. From what I've read, the bull barrel has a diameter of 0.875" and the receiver is 0.993". That means a barrel wall thickness of 144% of the caliber and a receiver wall thickness of 171% of the caliber.

I have a .50BMG barrel that is 1.625" in diameter. The .50 BMG round is 0.804" at the base, so that means that the wall thickness is only 51% of the chamber diameter, but it is good for 54,800 psi according to the specs on that round. I believe that both are made from 4140 steel. That would make me think that the Mk-II's barrel and receiver should be able to handle some pretty serious pressure. I couldn't find an easy way to replace the recoil spring on a Mk-II with one that was significantly heavier though.



Lapua ammunition factory explosion is said to be caused by super fast powder used in POWER LOADS. When that powder ignited in the loading machine, it burned so fast at by-passed all the safety measures and reached the "powder magazine" they had upstairs.. This is what happened after that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapua_Cartridge_Factory_explosion

That wiki article doesn't quite say that. If you are sure of it, maybe you should edit the wiki article to reflect the additional knowledge that you have. Quote your sources in the edit, of course.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I bought some of these from Menards and then was told not to try it. Here's what I've thought lately;

Use those blanks as primed brass. Cut them off, figure out what a decent level charge is and either assemble ammo or breach seat a cast bullet and load one of these behind it with the right charge. I cast for .22 centerfires and a gas check design without the check just might take the place of a healed bullet the .22 LR uses.

Personally, I found it easier to get a .22 Hornet and develop light cast loads. For small game, they are better and more accurate than .22 LR anyway. For lighter work, I picked up an old Sheridan Blue Streak.

A pretty good rule for turning other branches of technology to firearms purposes, is that things are guaranteed for their intended purpose. There is no reason why a nail-gun blank shouldn't have small smears of primer composition on the inside walls, and you do not want to cut into that with a jewellers saw. As they are generally sealed, I wouldn't count on moistening the composition either.

I do remember from other threads that someone using them, I think for a .25 rimfire rifle, found that you could get quite useful small-game velocity with the weaker cartridges, and it escalated to alarming levels when more powerful ones were used. I don't believe he ever got to the most powerful. Some of these tools don't have any barrel to speak of, and communicate kinetic energy to a moving weight which strikes the nail. That might be done with much faster propellant than is used in firearms.

[Ola]

That wiki article doesn't quite say that. If you are sure of it, maybe you should edit the wiki article to reflect the additional knowledge that you have. Quote your sources in the edit, of course. No it doesn't. I read that theory in the book "Patruunatehtaan räjähdys" ("official" history of the explosion of the Lapua factory).

[richhodg66]

A pretty good rule for turning other branches of technology to firearms purposes, is that things are guaranteed for their intended purpose. There is no reason why a nail-gun blank shouldn't have small smears of primer composition on the inside walls, and you do not want to cut into that with a jewellers saw. As they are generally sealed, I wouldn't count on moistening the composition either.

I do remember from other threads that someone using them, I think for a .25 rimfire rifle, found that you could get quite useful small-game velocity with the weaker cartridges, and it escalated to alarming levels when more powerful ones were used. I don't believe he ever got to the most powerful. Some of these tools don't have any barrel to speak of, and communicate kinetic energy to a moving weight which strikes the nail. That might be done with much faster propellant than is used in firearms.

Probably good advice, and again, a small pistol primer, 2 grains of Bullseye and 45 grains of free lead in a .22 Hornet does what I need it to do cheaper and better.

[NavyVet1959]

I do remember from other threads that someone using them, I think for a .25 rimfire rifle, found that you could get quite useful small-game velocity with the weaker cartridges, and it escalated to alarming levels when more powerful ones were used. I don't believe he ever got to the most powerful. Some of these tools don't have any barrel to speak of, and communicate kinetic energy to a moving weight which strikes the nail. That might be done with much faster propellant than is used in firearms.

I saw a wiki article on them and it specified some velocities given a "350 gr slug from a test device".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder-actuated_tool


In brass casing:
Color coding
Velocity


Grey
315 ft/s (96 m/s)


Brown
385 ft/s (117 m/s)


Green
490 ft/s (150 m/s)


Yellow
575 ft/s (175 m/s)


Red
675 ft/s (206 m/s)


Purple
755 ft/s (230 m/s)





In nickel (silver) casings:
Color coding
Velocity


Grey
845 ft/s (258 m/s)


Brown
935 ft/s (285 m/s)


Green
1,025 ft/s (312 m/s)


Yellow
1,115 ft/s (340 m/s)


Red
1,205 ft/s (367 m/s)


Purple
1,295 ft/s (395 m/s)




I had seen the nickel cases, but I had assumed they were the same powder charge for the color as the brass cases. The ads didn't say anything about them being more powerful. That's a pretty big difference. The nickel-purple loading works out to be 1303 ft-lbs with that 350 gr projectile. Hard to believe that you could get that out of a *any* powder that you put in a .22LR case.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I saw a wiki article on them and it specified some velocities given a "350 gr slug from a test device".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder-actuated_tool



Color coding

Velocity



Grey

315 ft/s (96 m/s)



Brown

385 ft/s (117 m/s)



Green

490 ft/s (150 m/s)



Yellow

575 ft/s (175 m/s)



Red

675 ft/s (206 m/s)



Purple

755 ft/s (230 m/s)







Color coding

Velocity



Grey

845 ft/s (258 m/s)



Brown

935 ft/s (285 m/s)



Green

1,025 ft/s (312 m/s)



Yellow

1,115 ft/s (340 m/s)



Red

1,205 ft/s (367 m/s)



Purple

1,295 ft/s (395 m/s)





I had seen the nickel cases, but I had assumed they were the same powder charge for the color as the brass cases. The ads didn't say anything about them being more powerful. That's a pretty big difference. The nickel-purple loading works out to be 1303 ft-lbs with that 350 gr projectile. Hard to believe that you could get that out of a *any* powder that you put in a .22LR case.

Yes, but it doesn't say that that "device" was a barrel which imposes friction, and if not, it bears only a slight relationship to what might be achieved in a firearm. There used to be an adolescent prank of upending a blacksmith's anvil on top of another, with an ounce or so of black powder in the hardy hole which is used to hold punches, and a powder trail between them. The force would hurl an anvil in the air so fast that if liftoff wasn't straight, the beak of one anvil could be broken off against the other.

At least that was a pretty ordinary firearms propellant. But the substance in the nail-gun blank could be much faster-burning, with bore friction becoming even more important.

[jmorris]

There used to be an adolescent prank

Its now a sport with World Championships and competitions across the country.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6396886/Anvil-shooting-the-worlds-strangest-sport.html

[w30wcf]

The No. 2 contains 1.7 grs. of a powder that is very close to Bullseye in burning rate. That is a bit too much for using it with a 22 bullet in a 22 L.R. chamber. The No. 1 would be better as it would contain less powder but I don't know how much.

w30wcf

[Multigunner]

From a translation of a Finn article on the Lapua explosion.

"The machine was modified in Lapua own work in the 1960s to work in peace. It dispensed gunpowder panosnaulaimen or bolt pistol cartridges. Bolt Pistol was 60-century building tool, novelty, which can shoot steel nails or bolts in concrete or steel. "

The explosion started there. Apparently the machine dated to the 1920's and was at some point repurposed for loading nail gun blanks.

I've seen US Army grenade blank powder suggested as a substitute filler for grenades. These powders are for the most part extremely fast burning, more in the explosive category like BP.

[Hogdaddy]

The Ramset with purpul will shoot a nail thruogh 1/2 inch red iron ; )
H/D

[NavyVet1959]

The Ramset with purpul will shoot a nail thruogh 1/2 inch red iron ; )
H/D

What is the chamber diameter on that tool?

[Hogdaddy]

What is the chamber diameter on that tool?Not quite sure I got two out in garage,, I'll get bacck on that,, The Pin diameter is in or close to 30 cal ; )
H/D

[w30wcf]

I have one of those with the 10" bull barrel. If you look at how thick that barrel is, you have to wonder if it is even possible to put enough powder in a .22LR case to cause damage to that barrel. From what I've read, the bull barrel has a diameter of 0.875" and the receiver is 0.993". That means a barrel wall thickness of 144% of the caliber and a receiver wall thickness of 171% of the caliber.

I have a .50BMG barrel that is 1.625" in diameter. The .50 BMG round is 0.804" at the base, so that means that the wall thickness is only 51% of the chamber diameter, but it is good for 54,800 psi according to the specs on that round. I believe that both are made from 4140 steel. That would make me think that the Mk-II's barrel and receiver should be able to handle some pretty serious pressure. I couldn't find an easy way to replace the recoil spring on a Mk-II with one that was significantly heavier though.

Navy Vet,
Yes it is possible to load a .22 L.R. to the point of case failure. The barrel would likely be ok but, at minimum, the extractor will depart from the gun when the back of the case blows out. :shock:

I would not use anything more powerful than the No. 2 (1.7 grs. powder) which produced 1,514 f.p.s. with a 30 gr bullet that I purchased from North American Arms.
https://northamericanarms.com/shop/parts/cbb2/

In the .32 Rimfire, the No.3 (2.1 grs. powder) pushed a 90 gr bullet to 960 f.p.s. (24" barrel) effectively duplicating factory ballistics produced with 2 grs of Bullseye.

My No.2 & No.3's have the Super X head stamp and there is no wad in them, just powder.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/22Duo-Fast.jpg


w30wcf

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Its now a sport with World Championships and competitions across the country.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6396886/Anvil-shooting-the-worlds-strangest-sport.html

Fascinating, although the title of world's strangest sport is a hotly contested one. It seems they put powder in a brick-sized cavity in the underside of the anvil, not the small one on the working face. So presumably a larger charge of powder is used.

[Oyeboten]

What is the chamber diameter on that tool?

My "Bolt Shooter" or "Plate Gun" is not handy right now ( it is in another State ) but it was made I think in the 1950s, and in theory one was supposed to obtain a Licence to operate it, even though I doubt anything ever came of that.

It looks like a Pistol and breaks open with a twist, for chambering a Cartridge. One chambers the projectile first, from the breech as it were, then inserts a reducer which is in effect the Chamber as such then, and the reducer is what accepts the .22 Blank.

Mine is a Winchester Olin if memory serve and has two different Barrels, for use with two different diameter Bolts or Nails.

Nickle plated Long cases were in effect, the 'Magnum' Cartridges, and Brass, the low power range of color codes.

One used the Nickle Placed long Case Loads for the larger ( 3/8ths of in inch I think, ) diameter Bolts or larger diameter hardened Nails.

It will put a 3/8ths Hardened Steel Bolt through an I Beam flange or Wide Flane Beam Flange or Web, but I do not recall the limits, maybe 1/2 inch though.

These got going originaly in WWI for various War Production things, so there should be some interesting 'old' versions of them out there, but I think the oldest I ever came across were maybe from the late 1930s or WWII era and they were not much different than mine in design and size and operation.

Sadly now, it is very hard or about impossible to find the Nails and Bolts for the old style true direct "Gun" Type "Powder Actuated" Fastening Guns...it all went to 'piston driven' and the projectiles/Nails/Bolts are sized differently and do not fit the old Barrels, and or the fasteners have Washers on them, where, the old System, one stuck a Washer ( usualy with a dab of spit ) on to the Muzzle End, for the Nail to go through the Washer as the Nail or Bolt is exiting the Muzzle, as when attaching Wood to Conrete or Steel.

All the older ones I know of were .22 Calibre Chambers...newer ones are like 25 Calibre or something.

One never sees any Nickle Plated long .22 "Magnum" ( one might call them ) Blanks for these, or I have not seen any, anywhere in about thiry years now.

No idea if anyone even still makes them for the old style Plate Guns.

In my own experience, I never got beyond the mid power level of the short Brass Blank charges, since all I was ever using mine for was shooting Sill Plates on to Concrete Slabs, or, shooting Backing Studs on to Grouted Masonry Walls, so...I never fired any of the 'Magnum' Loads or the larger diameter Bolts/Nails.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The No. 2 contains 1.7 grs. of a powder that is very close to Bullseye in burning rate. That is a bit too much for using it with a 22 bullet in a 22 L.R. chamber. The No. 1 would be better as it would contain less powder but I don't know how much.

w30wcf

I don't suppose the makers actually say so, and the free burning rate doesn't mean a thing. With black powder the burning rate is approximately in proportion to the pressure under which it burns. But with smokeless pressure increases the burning rate much more than that. In plain terms, anything that tends to increase pressure a little, increases it a lot.

Almost nothing except a bore obstruction will burst an unflawed rifle barrel of normal proportions. It is one or other (or more) of the breech components that fails. Some of the best rifles for separate loading of the projectile, such as the Stevens 44, could liberate rim fragments or gas in a dangerous direction even if the rifle is undamaged.

General Hatcher describes how people occasionally acquired EC Blank powder, as used in blanks and grenades, and mistook it for EC shotgun powder, with disastrous results. That wasn't so very different in free burning rate either.

[Oyeboten]

Any ideas about whether an average old 1940s/1950s Sears & Roebuck Bolt Action single shot .22 woud be alright with mid range power color code "Blanks' meant for Powder Actuated Fastening Guns...using a light .22 Cal Air Rifle Pellet ahead of the Blank?

Whether this would bother or strain the Rifle?

This does sound like it wold be fun to try out!

[NavyVet1959]

Any ideas about whether an average old 1940s/1950s Sears & Roebuck Bolt Action single shot .22 woud be alright with mid range power color code "Blanks' meant for Powder Actuated Fastening Guns...using a light .22 Cal Air Rifle Pellet ahead of the Blank?

Whether this would bother or strain the Rifle?

This does sound like it wold be fun to try out!

From what I've gathered from watching the YouTube videos of people using the airgun pellets, if you put too much powder behind them, you have a chance of the head separating from the skirt of the pellet and it leaving the skirt in the barrel. I would be more inclined to use some appropriately sized round balls or a light cast bullet of around 0.225". Since I don't currently have a roundball mold of this size, I would be more inclined to try it with the Lee C225-55-RNF mold that I already have. Seating it deeper will reduce the chamber pressure.

[NavyVet1959]

Noticed an eBay sell going on and won the bid on 10K of the #1 brass power loads for $60. That would be like getting 500 rounds for $3. These are the lowest power loads, so I might need to figure out a way to open them up and add a grain or so of powder to them if I'm not satisfied with the velocity that they give me. I'm thinking a nail stuck in my drill press and then sharpened to a very fine point with a long gradual slope might just be enough to pry the crimps apart. Not with the drill running, of course -- just using it as kind of like an arbor press.

Also bought a 3500 round batch of #2 power loads for $77. That works out to be $11 per 500, or $2.20 per 100, so slightly cheaper than the manufacturer's distributor that I was mentioning originally.

So, I've got the lowest two power levels to play with.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Any ideas about whether an average old 1940s/1950s Sears & Roebuck Bolt Action single shot .22 woud be alright with mid range power color code "Blanks' meant for Powder Actuated Fastening Guns...using a light .22 Cal Air Rifle Pellet ahead of the Blank?

Whether this would bother or strain the Rifle?

This does sound like it wold be fun to try out!

The only guaranteed answer to that one is "Don't know". I am fairly sure something useful could be done, but it mightn't be what everybody wants, and it should be done carefully.

I would start with the mildest blanks available, and work up more power if that seems safe and is wanted. It is possible that the mildest will give you nothing but an indoor or backyard target performance. You could be left with a lot of unused blanks if that isn't what you want, so I would buy the smallest available pack first.

The commonest kind of air-rifle pellets can deform their skirts even in the more powerful guns which need licensing in the UK. Even if it isn't outright collapse or fragmentation, it could harm the balance of the pellet. I would rather use round balls. But a mould would be hard to get, and so is the US size F, a nominal .220in. diameter. I don't know how closely they keep to dimensions, as birdshot only has to be good for shooting birds.

I wouldn't try to open up the crimp on these blanks, and certainly not to smooth them out enough to grip the projectile. Separate loading is a possibility, but it would make for consistency if the projectile is always identically located, and doesn't slide down that longer chamber. It could be secured to the case with thin gummed paper, especially if the blank narrows down near the crimp to accommodate it. Or a more solid hollow based projectile than the air-rifle slug could be stuck to the crimp with a hard wax like sealing-wax, or superglue. Here is a pictured of a hollow-pointing device I posted recently, and you could make one of those F shot into a round-nosed, hollow based bullet with something very similar.

178689
For inserting the blanks in a rifle action with poor access, you could stick a piece of wide tape to a strip of wood or something, score it into quarter inch strips, and stick the head of a blank to each piece. Then to load, pull off a blank, insert it with the tape as a handle, and pull off the tape before closing the bolt.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Some years ago a local gun rag had an article where they tried to explode the famous Ruger MKII pistol. "Can it really take anything? Is it really unbreakable?" They used lot's of these power loads to propel stuff out of the barrel. Like steel cleaning rods, drill bits etc. The barrel was of course damaged and some little parts like extractor went missing but they just could not break the pistol. The reason is the case: if there is excessive pressure, the case will rupture and release the pressure to the rear.


That result doesn't surprise me, although I wouldn't fancy betting any portion of my anatomy on it. I don't think it was due to the case, though. I believe anything that was going to happen would happen before the bolt had moved far enough back to permit anything but escape of gas, and possibly minute fragments of metal, from a cracked rim.

[Oyeboten]

What is the chamber diameter on that tool?

On my old Winchester Olin, the Chamber is .22 RF, and more or less .22 Magnum for length for the higher power range of Cartridge Blanks.

Chamber as such is a seperate piece which one puts in after breech Loading the Nail or Bolt...Chamber then drops in, and one inserts the blank Cartridge in to the Chamber.

Short chamber for the lower range Brass Cartridges, long Chamber for the long Nickel Plated Cartridges.

Barrel is smooth bore of course, and about 3/8ths of an inch or so bore.

None of the Modern 'Guns' are Breech Loaders, all that went away decades ago and everyone went to a system where the Nail or Bolt gets put in to the end of the Muzzle, and a Piston is moved forward and against it.

This works for Fastening contexts, and pretty well prevents any real Velocity then if firing it "like a Gun".

The old ones were a Gun literally, and one could 'shoot from the hip' or whatever if one wanted, although of course that is NOT how they would be used in any fastening context.

Fastening contexts, the end of the Muzzle is always pressed "hard" against the thing one is firing in to.
It never occured to me to take mine to the outdoor Range and try shooting Targets at various distances, but, now that I am thinking about that, it would be fun to try.

[w30wcf]

I don't suppose the makers actually say so, and the free burning rate doesn't mean a thing.

General Hatcher describes how people occasionally acquired EC Blank powder, as used in blanks and grenades, and mistook it for EC shotgun powder, with disastrous results. That wasn't so very different in free burning rate either.

Actually, in this case it does because the No. 3, which contains 2.1 grs. of smokeless, produced ballistics equivalent to the same charge weight of Bullseye in the .32 LC rimfire.

w30wcf

[Oyeboten]

From what I've gathered from watching the YouTube videos of people using the airgun pellets, if you put too much powder behind them, you have a chance of the head separating from the skirt of the pellet and it leaving the skirt in the barrel. I would be more inclined to use some appropriately sized round balls or a light cast bullet of around 0.225". Since I don't currently have a roundball mold of this size, I would be more inclined to try it with the Lee C225-55-RNF mold that I already have. Seating it deeper will reduce the chamber pressure.


That makes sense, sure...

Round Balls would work very well I think.

And or one could size them down to suit, if using some slightly too large Gauge Shotgun Shot...ust run them through a sizing die.


The Videos I have seen, the Pellet is loaded form the Breech, to a depth which will have the Pellet some little bit aways from the front of the Blank Cartridge.

This distance then would in efect be one's "Loading Density", so I expect it would play a significant role in how much pressure is developed, and the FPS one will acheive.

[w30wcf]

Noticed an eBay sell going on and won the bid on 10K of the #1 brass power loads for $60. That would be like getting 500 rounds for $3. These are the lowest power loads, so I might need to figure out a way to open them up and add a grain or so of powder to them if I'm not satisfied with the velocity that they give me. I'm thinking a nail stuck in my drill press and then sharpened to a very fine point with a long gradual slope might just be enough to pry the crimps apart. Not with the drill running, of course -- just using it as kind of like an arbor press.

Also bought a 3500 round batch of #2 power loads for $77. That works out to be $11 per 500, or $2.20 per 100, so slightly cheaper than the manufacturer's distributor that I was mentioning originally.

So, I've got the lowest two power levels to play with.

Congratulations on finding some No. 1 to try. :) Using a tapered nail is how I have opened the crimp to remove the powder. Please let us know what the charge weight of powder the No. 1's hold.

I would consider the No. 2's the absolute maximum (1.7 grs. of smokeless) with a 40 gr. lead alloy bullet as it produced in excess of 1,300 f.p.s. in my Marlin 39A. With a 30 gr lead bullet - 1,514 f.p.s.

One issue you will run into is chambering a 40 gr bullet in front of the powder load as the OAL is .10" beyond the OAL of a .22 LR cartridge. As I found out, it will require a bit of force to push it into the rifling .

w30wcf

[Oyeboten]

This illustration shows a Plate Gun which is the same basic design as mine, only this one, circa 1961, is some ways newer.

This was the general lay out of the Winchester Olin 'Guns' for several decades anyway.

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/znwAAMXQlUNRPoKL/s-l225.jpg

[NavyVet1959]

The power fastener tool that I own is the most basic hammer actuated one. Something like this, IIRC:

https://content.interlinebrands.com/product/Image/Detail/10092/821750_usn.jpg

I needed it for one project about 20 years ago when closing off a section of my garage for a laundry room and needed to attach the 2x4s to the concrete at the base of the wall. I haven't needed it since then, so I have no idea where it is anymore. It's probably in the garage, *somewhere*...

[Chev. William]

RE: Number 1, or Grade 1, Nail gun blanks Propellant charge;
The ones i obtained a While back contained 1.31 grains of a 'Flake' type Propellant.
I did open the ones I measure with a Finishing Nail, sharpened, chucked in a Bench drill Press. this opened The Star Crimp enough to pour the Propellant powder out into my Balance beam Scale.

RE: Cast Projectiles availability; I have Purchased Cast "air rifle pellets" from "Hunters Supply" for my experiments they List several Round nose and Flat nose Bullets as 'Air rifle Pellets'. They Do have a Web site.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

Chev William,
Thank you for that information.:) I remembered reading your post elsewhere about that. I recently took some No.2's and reduced the powder charge to 1.3 grs. I'm going to try them under a 40 gr. bullet and see what the chronograph says.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Congratulations on finding some No. 1 to try. :) Using a tapered nail is how I have opened the crimp to remove the powder. Please let us know what the charge weight of powder the No. 1's hold.

I would consider the No. 2's the absolute maximum (1.7 grs. of smokeless) with a 40 gr. lead alloy bullet as it produced in excess of 1,300 f.p.s. in my Marlin 39A. With a 30 gr lead bullet - 1,514 f.p.s.

One issue you will run into is chambering a 40 gr bullet in front of the powder load as the OAL is .10" beyond the OAL of a .22 LR cartridge. As I found out, it will require a bit of force to push it into the rifling .

w30wcf

Here's a pic showing the extra length of the 40 gr / power load as compared to a .22 L.R. which = a press fit into the rifling.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/22%20power%20cart.jpg

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Actually, in this case it does because the No. 3, which contains 2.1 grs. of smokeless, produced ballistics equivalent to the same charge weight of Bullseye in the .32 LC rimfire.

w30wcf

While the results people are reporting with moderate power are encouraging, and unlikely to be accompanied by excessive peak pressure. But close examination of the cases is still advisable. Velocity depends on the average pressure, not peak pressure, and the time for which it is applied. It is perfectly possible for the same velocity to be obtained by moderate pressure sustained most of the way down the barrel, or by an extremely high peak pressure which falls off quickly. Centerfire handloaders do it frequently.

I don't know if you train gundogs with a dummy thrower in the US, but these blanks could be useful. I don't believe they have a star crimp. They aren't cheap but neither are nail-gun cartridges here unless bought in bulk. It seems unlikely that they are made for that rather small market, so they are probably used for something else. Presumably you would see what is inside before cutting these shorter, and I think their length and straightness would let you use a pipe-cutter.

http://www.innerwolf.co.uk/22-dummy-launcher-blanks.html

Lodging the bullet in the rifling demands care. If you deliberately or accidentally unload a live case you might leave the bullet there and ram it ahead of the next one. It should be good for accuracy, though. That is why the Stevens 44 with its tilting block was a front runner as a British rimfire target rifle, when the only Martinis available were the converted large military ones. But the trigger pull wasn't subject to much improvement, and then the small Martinis with Francotte's removable action frame came along.

[jmorris]

From what I've gathered from watching the YouTube videos of people using the airgun pellets, if you put too much powder behind them, you have a chance of the head separating from the skirt of the pellet and it leaving the skirt in the barrel.

I haven't seen that in my use but I have seen them "spray" the pellet out.

[Chev. William]

I believe the "Pellets" used in the videos are the very light "wasp waist" skirted Types.
There are Also some Solid cylindrical body pellets out there along with true 'bullet shape" Pellets with Grooves in them that can carry Lubricant.

Check the offerings of "Hunters Supply" (http://hunters-supply.com/shop/index.php?osCsid=foljarld672be66pj4lu6heuc1) as they list many.

Best Regards
Chev. William

[Oyeboten]

I believe the "Pellets" used in the videos are the very light "wasp waist" skirted Types.
There are Also some Solid cylindrical body pellets out there along with true 'bullet shape" Pellets with Grooves in them that can carry Lubricant.

Check the offerings of "Hunters Supply" (http://hunters-supply.com/shop/index.php?osCsid=foljarld672be66pj4lu6heuc1) as they list many.

Best Regards
Chev. William

Looks like "Hunters Supply" has quite a few really nice Bullets.

I was wondering lately if there are any suppliers of Hollow Point Lead Bullets for .380 and 9mm and there they are!

Your timing was perfect with sharing this link...thanks!

[NavyVet1959]

Well, the 3500 "brown" load power loads came in today, so I had to a bit of evaluation tonight.

Since I had an NAA .22LR/.22mag revolver that I had bought my wife probably 25-30 years ago and it rarely gets carried anymore, I decided to use it as my first attempt. The C225-55-RF bullet would slide into the .22LR cylinder, but only go as far as the base of the bullet being flush with the base of the cylinder. To seat it deeper, I will need to use mechanical means to push it a bit deeper. So, I decided to just try firing one of the blank rounds in the gun. I loaded a single round into the cylinder and then installed the cylinder in the gun. Installing the cylinder back into the gun seems slightly more difficult and then when I tried to rotate the cylinder, it was somewhat tight during the rotation. I removed the cylinder and I could see where the base of the cartridge was scraping the frame of the gun. So, I put the bullet back in the cylinder and examined it sitting in the cylinder. It seems that it sits slightly higher than a normal .22LR cartridge, so I figured that it is either not seating all the way in the chamber or the rim is just slightly thicker. I will need to check it with my calipers.

Now, if I dropped the C225-55-RF bullet in the .22mag cylinder, it goes nearly all the way to the front of the cylinder. It would take very little pressure to seat it and still stay shy of the front end of the cylinder. I'm not so certain that the .22 power loads will expand enough to seal the .22mag chamber though. Considering how close our hand is to the cylinder on a small revolver like that, I'm hesitant to find out what it feels like to have the hot gases hitting my hand.

So, my next experiment was with a 10" barrel Ruger Mk-II. Because of the small ejection port opening, it's not easy to seat a bullet, so I decided to just test it with feeding the powder load and seeing if it would eject. When I pulled back the bolt and let it go, it picked up a cartridge and chambered it like it should. I then tried to eject the live cartridge and it ejected without a problem. I then reloaded it and went outside and fired it. It fired, but did not eject. As can probably be expected, there was ZERO recoil. The bolt did not lock back, so I figured that it just did not develop the back pressure to cause the bolt to lock back. When I pulled the bolt back manually, the empty brass remained in the chamber. So, I pushed a rod down the end of the barrel and the spent brass came out easily.

Examination of the spent brass showed that the crimped portion expanded to chamber diameter, but a small portion of the botttleneck area between the crimp and the main diameter of the cartridge did not expand as much. There were one split in the case, but it was on one of the crimp lines and only extended to the bottleneck portion that did not expand. It did not extend into the main body of the cartridge. So, I'm thinking that the rest of the cartridge expanded and acted as a seal to the pressure, just like it was supposed to do. I had been concerned that the additional power in one of these loads might cause the bolt to slide back too far and thus need a heavier spring to prevent it from doing damage to the bolt or frame, but at least without a bullet in the chamber, that is not a concern.

If I end up having to use a rod to remove the spent casing each time, that wouldn't be an issue for me. Hell, the muzzle loader folks have to use rods to seat their bullets all the way down the barrel -- having to use one to eject the brass is a lot less effort. :)

I have a Ruger 10/22, but I'm thinking that the ejection port opening on it would not make it any easier to set a bullet from the breech, so I'll probably avoid testing with that one. I have a Ruger Mini-14 and a .22LR conversion kit for it. I'm thinking that it might be a bit easier to set a bullet from the breach with that one. I'll have to look at the kit a bit to see if it will work.

[6mm win lee]

Is there any chance the nail blanks could be corrosive? I might have missed that bit of info in the previous posts.

[retread]

Some power loads are 27 cal, such as the ones I have for my "Molecat" mole killer.

[Traffer]

I think that the idea of making a gun that shoots nail gun charges as propellant with a separate bullet is a great idea. Don't know if strictly the 22 is the anwser. There are bigger shells out there And you could could makd a gun say a 22lr barrel with the chamber reamed to accept a biger nail gun charge. I believe that Winchester makes a 25 or 26 caliber nail gun shell. It is the one they necck down to make Id I didn't have so many irons in the fire i would have been pursud this new fun game..I am getting really tired falling asleep at the desk, have to stop. by fellas. Will chat more tomorrow

[jmorris]

NavyVet, you have larger ones than I do. I used one of my Savage 24's when I was playing around.

The cylinder on my NAA is so thin I wouldn't have felt comfortable and wouldn't have wanted to blow out an extractor on a semiauto either.

You are right to be cautious, a good rest and long string might save a trip to the ER...

[NavyVet1959]

NavyVet, you have larger ones than I do. I used one of my Savage 24's when I was playing around.

The cylinder on my NAA is so thin I wouldn't have felt comfortable and wouldn't have wanted to blow out an extractor on a semiauto either.

You are right to be cautious, a good rest and long string might save a trip to the ER...

The .22 mag and .22LR cylinders look to be the same diameter. Since the .22mag cartridge diameter is slightly larger than the .22LR cartridge diameter, that made me start wondering, so I checked the SAAMI pressure for each. Turns out that they are the *same* -- 24,000 psi. As such, that means that the .22LR cylinder would be *slightly* stronger on the NAA revolver.

I would prefer to be using a break action rifle though. Unfortunately, I don't have one chambered in .22LR at this time. What I do have though is an old 12-gauge single shot shotgun that I had stumbled across for a really cheap price. I had thought it might make a wall hanger if it didn't function, but surprisingly, it worked very well -- just needs a new butt plate. If I had a lathe, I would be tempted to get one of the Green Mountain "gunsmith special" .22LR "raw" barrels and machine it down to the point where it would fit exactly in the entire length of the barrel, perhaps silver soldering it to the 12-gauge barrel to make it permanent.

One thing that I did notice when I fired the powder load out of the Ruger Mk-II was that the sound had the sort of "crack sound" that you associate with a rifle when the projectile is supersonic, even though there was no projectile being expelled.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

While I don't trust cutting into one of those blanks, it would be possible to make a safe device for squeezing the rim a little thinner. If its diameter is excessive I don't think you could do much about that except widen the rim recess in the gun slightly. Unlike deepening the recess, that wouldn't impair its performance or safety with normal .22LR.

The shotgun idea would work, but it would become exceedingly heavy for a .22. You should try weighing it down to the same amount, and seeing if that is acceptable. You could install a much shorter barrel, in which the .22LR and very likely its substitutes comes close to developing full velocity. It would be much quieter than an ordinary .22 rifle, but you should check the legality in case that counts as a suppressor. You could even fill the rest of the barrel with baffles. I wouldn't use high melting-point silver solder, though. Epoxy, Loctite or soft solder would all be better, and let you out of refinishing the barrel.

Of course doing all this with one of the often advocated centerfire .22 alternatives would let you out of a tricky job on the firing-pin.

[jmorris]

What I do have though is an old 12-gauge single shot shotgun that I had stumbled across for a really cheap price.

I have used drops from barrels to make inserts.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151110_173054_193_zpsv7rbpnbt.jpg

Just remember it will need to be off center for a rimfire.

http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server1700/37586/products/61/images/506/22_LR__20653.1457992323.1280.1280.PNG?c=2

These are pretty cheap.

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/881160.htm

I think that would be a safer way to go at least until you know what your dealing with.

[w30wcf]

CAUTION! I would suggest NOT USING THE NO. 2 WITH A 55 gr bullet.

Pressures would be beyond .22 L.R. I consider the No. 2 maximum with a 40 gr. bullet as it went over 1,300 f.p.s.

I have used the power loads in my 39A and the fired cases ejected normally from the rifle.

w30wcf

[dverna]

jmorris,

The insert idea is excellent. It would allow a user to inexpensively deepen the chamber (home made reamer) so that seating the bullet would be a simple "drop in" without buggering up the barrel on a .22 gun. Standardizing on one bullet would allow the chamber to be a perfect fit yielding the same power load and bullet relationship every time. That is easier than having a tool to push the bullet into the rifling.

Of course, one needs a cheap single barrel 12 ga but those are not difficult to find.

I wonder how difficult it will be to remove the spent case? There appears to be a shallow cut out in the photo (at 12:00). It that for flicking it out with a fingernail?

Good thread

Don Verna

[Chev. William]

Very good information on the Adapters.
I would think a 20 ga. Single Shot shot gun would be more easily Located/obtained.

Also Don't rule out the "long barrel" Adapter just yet.
For a 12Ga., it would be possible to fit a .22RF "liner" with a 12 ga chamber adapter and a Bore sized Support at the Muzzle end (possibly fine threaded as a "Nut" to secure the Inserted adapter liner in tension). The Liners I have seen seem to be about 1/2 inch diameter which should be plenty strong for a .22 Bore rifle. that would leave most of the 12 ga. Bore free of steel contact and easily cleaned by removing the adapter/liner setup.
A clearance Cut for 12 ga. extractor clearance on the chamber end of the adapter might be a good idea. and a cut to access the rim for extraction of the spent cartridge case would also be nice.

Just some thoughts on the subject,
Chev. William

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Tension will still vary as it heats up. I think a better idea would be a screw-in bushing in which the liner slides freely, like a half-inch bored choke tube if you are lucky enough to find a single threaded for them. It would make liner heat totally uniform. A 20ga would indeed be better than a 12 for this purpose, and a good .410, with the bore reamed and no air-space, should be strong enough if the firing-pin is good.

[NavyVet1959]

While I don't trust cutting into one of those blanks, it would be possible to make a safe device for squeezing the rim a little thinner. If its diameter is excessive I don't think you could do much about that except widen the rim recess in the gun slightly. Unlike deepening the recess, that wouldn't impair its performance or safety with normal .22LR.

I measured the rim thickness of 8 .22LR cartridges and 8 .22 power loads. The power loads were definitely thicker. I don't have the measurements handy, but IIRC, it was something like 0.042 vs 0.050. I left the paper that I had written the numbers on over at my reloading "shack'. When I get a chance, I'll get them and update these numbers.

I took a small nut that was just slightly too small for the round to slide into it and drilled it out with a drill bit that was close to the size of the .22 power load. That was too small for the slots in my arbor press, so I took one of my condiment cup ingots and drilled a hole in it so that the nose of the power load could go into it. The ingot was wide enough to bridge the slot in the arbor press. I then used the arbor press to put a bit of pressure on the base of the power load while in this holder and measured it. I didn't want to go too far, so I would give it a nudge and then measure it again. After about three attempts, it was within the range of thicknesses that I had encountered on the .22 LR ammo. When I later tried it out with the NAA mini revolver, the cylinder rotated freely, so it was definitely an issue with that particular brand of power loads with the NAA cylinder. I think the NAA uses pretty tight tolerances on their cylinders though. I've had a similar problem with the .22 mag cylinder with normal .22 mag ammo.

So, I tried firing the reformed power load in the NAA, but no luck. It would not fire even after I rotated it in the chamber multiple times hoping to get a new strike spot under the hammer. I then tried putting one of the unmodified power loads in the .22 mag chamber. It rotated freely, so apparently the rim area on it is recessed just slightly more than the .22LR cylinder. I tried firing it in the .22mag cylinder, but it would not fire. I'm guessing that it is just not getting enough support under the rim to cause the primer to go off. I then took that load and put it in the Ruger Mk-II, but it would not fire either, even though the Ruger had not had a problem with a fresh power load yesterday. I tried a fresh load and it fired without a problem. I'm thinking that the act of the hammer in the NAA hitting the rim in the NAA might knock some of the primer loose if it doesn't set off the primer.


The shotgun idea would work, but it would become exceedingly heavy for a .22. You should try weighing it down to the same amount, and seeing if that is acceptable. You could install a much shorter barrel, in which the .22LR and very likely its substitutes comes close to developing full velocity. It would be much quieter than an ordinary .22 rifle, but you should check the legality in case that counts as a suppressor. You could even fill the rest of the barrel with baffles. I wouldn't use high melting-point silver solder, though. Epoxy, Loctite or soft solder would all be better, and let you out of refinishing the barrel.


I'm not worried about the weight. It probably wouldn't be any heavier than the old Winchester Model 90 with the thick octagon barrel that I have and I killed a lot of squirrels and crows with it when I was a kid.

Installing a chamber adapter / barrel insert would not qualify as sound suppressor, but if someone was so inclined, I could see how they *could* make an integral sound suppressor out of a 12-gauge barrel with a .22LR insert in it. You could start out with a barrel insert that was 10" or so long, attaching it basically permanently to the 12-gauge barrel. From there, you could create a series baffles and spacers that you could slide into the barrel from the muzzle end. Keep this up until you get to the muzzle end of the barrel. The muzzle end of the barrel could be threaded (either internally or externally) so that you could screw a cap / plug into it that would put pressure on the baffles and spacers to keep them tight. This cap / plug would then have the same diameter hole in the center of it as the baffles did (i.e. for whatever caliber you are converting it to).

At least that would seem like it would work for an internal suppressor from what I've seen of suppressor design on YouTube. :)


Of course doing all this with one of the often advocated centerfire .22 alternatives would let you out of a tricky job on the firing-pin.

The purpose of this experiment is to find a way for someone to be able to shoot a .22LR firearm for less than the current cost of .22LR ammo AND even less than the cost of centerfire alternatives. If I just wanted a centerfire alternative, I would use my .223 barrel for my Encore and load a couple of grains of Red Dot / Promo in it.

[NavyVet1959]

CAUTION! I would suggest NOT USING THE NO. 2 WITH A 55 gr bullet.

Pressures would be beyond .22 L.R. I consider the No. 2 maximum with a 40 gr. bullet as it went over 1,300 f.p.s.

I have used the power loads in my 39A and the fired cases ejected normally from the rifle.


The #1 loads should come in tomorrow, so I'll wait for them before trying any actual bullets.

I'm thinking though that the stronger power loads could still possibly be used if you were to seat the bullet a bit further out.

[Chev. William]

Is there any chance the nail blanks could be corrosive? I might have missed that bit of info in the previous posts.

To The best of my Knowledge and belief All Modern Powder Tool Loads are "non-mercuric, non-corrosive, and non-sulfurous" as all are commercially loaded with modern primer material and Modern Smokeless Propellants.

Blank Cartridges on the other hand are sometimes loaded with Black Powder which is corrosive if not cleaned out soon after Use.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[jmorris]

Maybe a visual is in order. I can't think of a firearm with as small a margin of safety for something like this than the mini revolvers. The thinnest part of the cylinder is only .030" thick.

Not to mention when the case blows it's going to go out the firing pin notch, hit the top strap and go both directions or even righ out the top, even if the cylinder is unharmed the odds of your hand(s) being damaged are drastically increased.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=178972&d=1476731321

[jmorris]

The chamber adapter I made was just a drop of barrel I turned to the right shape.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20151110_173149_255_zpspfufb8v0.jpg

[NavyVet1959]

The chamber adapter I made was just a drop of barrel I turned to the right shape.

Yet another reason why it would be really nice to get a lathe one of these days... :)

[Hick]

With my CZ in 223 remington I play with Lyman 225646 boolits, no gas check, Tumble-lubed using Ben's T/L, over 3.5 grains of W231 and get 22LR performance for a nickle a round-- including the cost of the primers. That's less that what most 22LR cartridges cost these days. That my 22 LR alternative.

[NavyVet1959]

The 10,000 power loads did not come in today, even though they were listed as "out for delivery" on the USPS site. So, no testing with the #1 level loads in any of the firearms.

Instead, I dug out a Ruger Mini-14 from the back of my gun safe and installed the .22LR conversion kit on it. It's been at least 8 years since I had it installed and it took awhile to figure out how it goes together. Ended up with one small piece leftover though. :(

I'm hoping that was for a different generation of the Mini-14. It seems to cycle manually OK, so I decided to get it a test.

I tried dropping a bullet in the chamber adapter and then putting the powder load behind it, but the bullet would not slide far enough down the chamber adapter for that to work. So, I just tried it with just the power load. It fired, but like the Ruger Mk-II, did not eject. Probably needs the bullet to give it a bit of back pressure. One difference though was that the extractor did not have a problem removing the spent brass from chamber when I operated it manually. Also, the crimped neck did not split this time.

Oh well... Another test, another data point...

[NavyVet1959]

With my CZ in 223 remington I play with Lyman 225646 boolits, no gas check, Tumble-lubed using Ben's T/L, over 3.5 grains of W231 and get 22LR performance for a nickle a round-- including the cost of the primers. That's less that what most 22LR cartridges cost these days. That my 22 LR alternative.

I've done similar with Alliant Promo (Red Dot) powder. This experiment is just to see if their is a way to actually use a .22LR firearm and for it to be cheaper than even just buying primers for centerfire loads.

[NavyVet1959]

Well, the 10,000 #1 level (gray) power loads were in the mailbox late this morning. The USPS site said they were delivered yesterday, but I checked late last night and nothing was there. So, either the USPS tracking system was designed by wannabe programmers or the delivery person marked the items as delivered even though he had not delivered them.

The rim looked thinner even to the unaided eye, so I suspected that they might now work in the NAA mini revolver. I loaded one in the cylinder and the cylinder rotated without any resistance, so apparently it is not a power load issue, but rather just that particular brand that I got in the previous eBay auction. This brand is Bostitch -- I'm not sure what the other brand is.

So, went outside to see if it would fire. Fired without a problem. Still have a slight split in the mouth of the case where the case is crimped in the star shape. Not really surprising given how much the brass has to be bent when they have to crimp it completely closed. The splits have never gone further than the start of the bottleneck though. As such, I don't consider it an issue.

[Chev. William]

Definitely good News for You.
The batch of Grade 1 PTL I bought a while back are Boxed and marked "Simpson Strong Tie P22AC1" on the box and "Made in U.S.A. by Winchester" with a 'Super X' head stamp. They measure .6021" Overall Length (using a .0001" resolution Micrometer) and I found hold 1.31 grains of a Flake type Propellant. these are like a Short Shot type of Bottleneck and Star Crimped case.

I am Looking forward to what you report you find is YOUR Grade 1 PTL Dimensions and Average Propellant Charge.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

NavyVet1959,
Please let us know what the head stamp on your No. 1's is.

I did a bit of testing a couple of days ago. I used the No. 2 with .4 grs removed (1.7-.4=1.3grs) to = the charge weight that Chev William (thank you) indicated was in his No.1's. I used a sharpened nail .09" dia. to open the crimp.

With a 40 gr bullet I fired 3 rounds in a 24" barrel and they averaged 1,111 f.p.s. (1094 / 1138 / 1100)

I also fired 3 rounds with the standard No. 2's which averaged 1,369 f.p.s. (1344 / 1308 / 1455!!)
Note the higher velocity of round 3. Whoa!

Maybe I need to weigh the individual No. 2's to try and eliminate any with a titch more powder in them (assuming the cases weigh the same)......

w30wcf

[NavyVet1959]

NavyVet1959,
Please let us know what the head stamp on your No. 1's is.

There is an "H" on the bottom and a circle around it. The bottom and the crimped nose is painted gray.



Maybe I need to weigh the individual No. 2's to try and eliminate any with a titch more powder in them (assuming the cases weigh the same)......


That would also be assuming that the paint on the nose weighs the same.

One thing to note though is that these two loads are just some that I managed to get off of eBay and they were a one-off type of auction. I have not ordered any from the company that I have contacted in China, so I do not know if their dimensions would be acceptable in the tight fitting NAA cylinder. From talking with their US representative, it seems that they would be open to selling power loads that only have primer and no powder in them and are not crimped.

[w30wcf]

NavyVet1959,

Thank you. "H" is one of the head stamps that Winchester has used. It will be interesting to learn what the powder charge is contained therein.

" From talking with their US representative, it seems that they would be open to selling power loads that only have primer and no powder in them and are not crimped. " If the front portion is not necked down, that would be great.

w30wcf

[NavyVet1959]

If the front portion is not necked down, that would be great.


They make both the necked down and straight products, so that should not be a problem. I'm thinking that it should just be a matter of taking some of the product off the manufacturing line before it get the powder added to it and putting them in the boxes at that point. I've relayed the information concerning the SAAMI max rim thickness and overall length for the case since it's not like you would be wanting to have to trim the length of cases that have already been primed.

[Chev. William]

NavyVet1959,
For Specifications of cartridge dimensions for use in China, I would suggest referring to CIP Standards rather than SAAMI Recommendations.
I am not sure, but I believe China Leans toward following CIP already.

I note that "industrial Cartridges" are listed in "Tab VI" on their web page.
There are several different entries for "22" size ones.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[kopperl]

#2 charge, #4 buckshot and an old Stevens single shot work just fine.

[NavyVet1959]

Well, I went to my reloading "shack' last night and did some testing while listening to the debates. Yeah, I know that is a dangerous thing to do since it makes me want to shoot the TV every time Hitlery come on. It's an old CRT type TV, so no big loss... :(

The bullet I'm using is the Lee C225-55-RF (.225 Bator). It has been powder coated using the ASBBDT method. It has then been tumble lubed with some cable pull lube and run through the Lee 0.225" sizer.

Installed a bullet in the NAA mini revolver and put a #1 power load in the chamber, but the bullet did not seat deep enough for the power load to go all the way into the chamber. So, I got a small piece of brazing rod and used my arbor press to seat it just a bit deeper. Took the gun out to the garage and shot it into my bullet trap. End result is that it did NOT blow up in my hand. :)

I think it would be easy enough to create a hand tool like NAA has for their cap and ball mini revolver so that you could have a consistent seating depth each time. Their seater tool is only $7.50, so if it would work for this bullet, that's also a cheap solution.

For the next test, I used the Mini 14 with the Ciener .22LR conversion kit. Because the chamber adapter is made of steel and I didn't want to force the larger .225" bullet down it, I decided to seat the bullet on the end of the chamber adapter instead. The chamber adapter looks like a .223 casing, but with a 3/4" or so chamber extension on the base of the casing that also fills up the receiver and mates with their replacement bolt. Their replacement bolt is shorter than the factory bolt. Normally, you use a set screw to locak the chamber adapter into the receiver. I did not use the set screw so that I could put the bullet in front of the .223 adapter for the testing.

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/ciener-mini-14-chamber-adapter.jpg

The #1 power load and the Lee 55 gr bullet in the Mini 14 is pretty quiet, but does not completely eject the brass. Since is being seated in front of the .233 chamber adapter, the pressure is probably a bit lower. The #2 load is louder and ejected enough to drop the spent brass into the mag well.

I don't have my chrony set up for , so I can't check velocity.

I also disassembled the two different power loads.

The #1 load (gray) consisted of 1.0gr of a typical charcoal colored flake powder.

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/power-load-gray-320w.jpg

The #2 load (brown) was 1.9 gr of a very fine greenish yellow powder.

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/power-load-brown-320w.jpg

Photos taken inside and at night and with a cell phone camera, so not the best quality.

Uncrimping the rounds to remove the powder was easy enough. Just took a nail, put it in the drill press, and then while it was rotating, used a file to make it into a long gradual point.

I also disassembled the rounds that didn't fire the other day after the resizing. There were some noticeably larger chunks in there which probably confirms my suspicion that the resizing of the rim caused the primer compound to break apart and away from the rim, causing it to not fire when hit by the hammer.

[Chev. William]

NavyVet1959,
Thank you for that very good data report.

The Flake 'gray' powder seems similar to what I saw but of a more powerful Batch as the Grade Level Power is Specified And controlled by Industry Standards.

The 'Greenish Yellow' powder sounds like one without Coatings to control its Burn Rate nor graphite for ease of Charge Dispensing.

Interesting in and of itself as a Propellant use.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

NavyVet1959,
Thank you for the information & pics. I found some No.1's on eBay today and bought them. They were made by CCI. I'll break a few down and see what the powder looks like and the charge weight.

As Chev William indicated, there are industry standards for the different power levels. The various manufacturers can and do use different powders & charge weights to meet those standards as the comparison between his No. 1's (1.3 grs.) and yours (1.0 grs.) indicates.

w30wcf

[GrayTech]

I measured the rim thickness of 8 .22LR cartridges and 8 .22 power loads. The power loads were definitely thicker. I don't have the measurements handy, but IIRC, it was something like 0.042 vs 0.050. I left the paper that I had written the numbers on over at my reloading "shack'. When I get a chance, I'll get them and update these numbers.

I took a small nut that was just slightly too small for the round to slide into it and drilled it out with a drill bit that was close to the size of the .22 power load. That was too small for the slots in my arbor press, so I took one of my condiment cup ingots and drilled a hole in it so that the nose of the power load could go into it. The ingot was wide enough to bridge the slot in the arbor press. I then used the arbor press to put a bit of pressure on the base of the power load while in this holder and measured it. I didn't want to go too far, so I would give it a nudge and then measure it again. After about three attempts, it was within the range of thicknesses that I had encountered on the .22 LR ammo. When I later tried it out with the NAA mini revolver, the cylinder rotated freely, so it was definitely an issue with that particular brand of power loads with the NAA cylinder. I think the NAA uses pretty tight tolerances on their cylinders though. I've had a similar problem with the .22 mag cylinder with normal .22 mag ammo.

So, I tried firing the reformed power load in the NAA, but no luck. It would not fire even after I rotated it in the chamber multiple times hoping to get a new strike spot under the hammer. I then tried putting one of the unmodified power loads in the .22 mag chamber. It rotated freely, so apparently the rim area on it is recessed just slightly more than the .22LR cylinder. I tried firing it in the .22mag cylinder, but it would not fire. I'm guessing that it is just not getting enough support under the rim to cause the primer to go off. I then took that load and put it in the Ruger Mk-II, but it would not fire either, even though the Ruger had not had a problem with a fresh power load yesterday. I tried a fresh load and it fired without a problem. I'm thinking that the act of the hammer in the NAA hitting the rim in the NAA might knock some of the primer loose if it doesn't set off the primer.



I'm not worried about the weight. It probably wouldn't be any heavier than the old Winchester Model 90 with the thick octagon barrel that I have and I killed a lot of squirrels and crows with it when I was a kid.

Installing a chamber adapter / barrel insert would not qualify as sound suppressor, but if someone was so inclined, I could see how they *could* make an integral sound suppressor out of a 12-gauge barrel with a .22LR insert in it. You could start out with a barrel insert that was 10" or so long, attaching it basically permanently to the 12-gauge barrel. From there, you could create a series baffles and spacers that you could slide into the barrel from the muzzle end. Keep this up until you get to the muzzle end of the barrel. The muzzle end of the barrel could be threaded (either internally or externally) so that you could screw a cap / plug into it that would put pressure on the baffles and spacers to keep them tight. This cap / plug would then have the same diameter hole in the center of it as the baffles did (i.e. for whatever caliber you are converting it to).

At least that would seem like it would work for an internal suppressor from what I've seen of suppressor design on YouTube. :)



The purpose of this experiment is to find a way for someone to be able to shoot a .22LR firearm for less than the current cost of .22LR ammo AND even less than the cost of centerfire alternatives. If I just wanted a centerfire alternative, I would use my .223 barrel for my Encore and load a couple of grains of Red Dot / Promo in it.
I think when you bump the rim thickness youre breaking the dried ring of primer compound in the rim.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

When I converted 9mm. rimfire shotshells into .32 rimfire I at first dampened the composition for safety, and let it dry out afterwards. That was for safety, but I soon took to doing it dry, with a piece of soft plastic tubing hose-clipped to the die and extending above my head. None ever exploded, and there was a good enough view inside those larger cases to show that none ever fell out. It was a thicker ring of dried compound, of course.But I think dampening would solve any such problem.

Bore erosion can't be much of a problem in a nail gun, as there isn't any real bore. So it could be that the powder has a higher nitroglycerin content than ordinary double-based powders. With some cartridges that would produce accelerated erosion, but I don't believe that would be a problem with such a small amount of powder in a .22.

[NavyVet1959]

I think when you bump the rim thickness youre breaking the dried ring of primer compound in the rim.

Yeah, that's what I was suspecting had happened when I saw a couple of slightly larger yellow chunks in the powder that I dumped from the rounds that would not fire after the resizing of the rim thickness.

On the other hand, the #1 (gray) loads work acceptably in the NAA mini revolver and both the #1 and #2 (brown) loads work in the Mini 14 .22LR chamber adapter. I did some tests with the #1 and #2 loads today with the loads seated about halfway down the chamber adapter instead of on the end of it like I had done previously. Even the #1 was able to clear the barrel and the tight fit of the chamber adapter.

[NavyVet1959]

Well, I remembered to bring back the notes that I had made on the rim thickness on the two brands of power loads.

#1 (gray) -- 0.041 0.037 0.041 0.039 0.038 0.039 0.040 = 0.0392857 avg
#2 (brown) -- 0.047 0.047 0.050 0.047 0.049 0.050 0.049 0.048 = 0.048375 avg

That was enough of a difference that the #2 loads would not allow the NAA mini revolver's cylinder to rotate.

Both work great in the Mini-14 chamber adapter though.

To seat the bullets consistently and allow the depth to be adjusted, I came up with something today. I took a brass 2" #12 machine screw (bolt) and put two nuts on it. If you tighten the nuts against each other (i.e. stop nut), they lock into place and you can use it as a punch to seat the bullet to the same depth in the chamber adapter or cylinder each time.

[Chev. William]

Excellent "Shade Tree" Solution for your bullet seater.
That might work also for my Stevens Favorite And my model 44 rifles.
Thank you for the Idea.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[NavyVet1959]

Excellent "Shade Tree" Solution for your bullet seater.
That might work also for my Stevens Favorite And my model 44 rifles.
Thank you for the Idea.

Apparently the #12 brass machine screws are not that common. Tried Lowes and they didn't have them. Ended up eventually finding them at Sears Hardware, but not any choices in head profile or length. Ended up getting a flat head recessed standard screwdriver head 2" one since that was the only choice. Ideally, I would have preferred a hex head bolt or a machine screw where the bottom of the head was flat (like in the pan head design) so that it could be used for even deeper bullet seating without the nuts, but you gotta work with what is available.

I had considered going with a brass 1/4" bolt, putting it in the drill press, and while it was turning, use a file to decrease the diameter for the portion that would go into the chamber, but that would not allow for an adjustable length. It might be a good solution once you settle on a particular seating depth for all rounds though. You would basically be making a hex head non-threaded pin out of the bolt and cutting / filing down the length of the bolt to your fixed seating depth.

I also took a Forstner bit that was just the size of the cylinder of the NAA mini revolver and drilled a hole / pocket in a short piece of 2x4 board to act as a holder for the cylinder as I placed it in the arbor press.

[w30wcf]

NavyVet1959,
Could you use a fired case to set the bullet?

w30wcf

[NavyVet1959]

NavyVet1959,
Could you use a fired case to set the bullet?


Probably, but if I was trying that, I would probably try filling the fired case with lead to make it a bit more solid.

In my case, I'm setting the bullet a bit deeper than a .22LR would normally be set due to the fact that I'm using a 55 gr bullet.

[w30wcf]

One of your #1's or #2's would, I think, be plenty stiff to seat the bullet.

Here I am using a live #2 power load to seat and then shoot a 40 gr. bullet from my rifle.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/22%202%20power%20load%2040%20gr%20bullet.jpg

w30wcf

[NavyVet1959]

Well, the experiments that I did today were with a Ruger 10/22.

It was quite a bit more difficult to insert the 55 gr bullet into the chamber of the 10/22 than it was in the Mini-14 chamber adapter. I tried using one of the power loads to seat the bullet, but I had to drop the bolt on it a few times and by the time I got through, when I pulled the trigger, it would not fire. When I removed the power load and rotated it a bit and tried again, it did fire.

The 55 gr bullet with the #1 load worked.

The 55 gr bullet with the #2 load resulted in a case head separation and quite a bit of fire coming out the ejection port.

I figured that I just was seating the bullet too deeply, so I decided to muzzle load the bullet instead. Pushed the bullet about halfway down the barrel and a #2 load would not push the bullet back out the barrel. Didn't get a case head separation though. The brass ejected quite a way. Tried a #1 load to clear the barrel, but no luck. Ended up having to hammer the bullet all the way to the chamber since due to the design of the chamber on the 10/22, there is not a way to hammer it from the chamber to the end of the barrel.

It's possible that I might just need to resize the bullet to the next smaller size to get it to work in the 10/22.

All in all though, I think a break action or bolt action (where the bolt can be easily removed) would be better for this.

[w30wcf]

NavyVet1959,
Thank you for the range report. "The 55 gr bullet with the #2 load resulted in a case head separation and quite a bit of fire coming out the ejection port." :shock:

Definitely some high pressure there! Since the #2 with a 40 gr bullet is pretty much maximum, as you found, it is too, too much for your heavier 55 gr. bullet.

If you made the bullets from a 50/1 lead tin or softer mix it would be easier to push into position, but accuracy with the 55 gr. bullet will likely be somewhat dismal due to the twist rate which is suited to the lighter 40 gr. bullets.

w30wcf

[NavyVet1959]

If you made the bullets from a 50/1 lead tin or softer mix it would be easier to push into position, but accuracy with the 55 gr. bullet will likely be somewhat dismal due to the twist rate which is suited to the lighter 40 gr. bullets.


These bullets are cast from 50:50, powdercoated, tumbled in electrician cable lube, and resized.

It's possible that I would get different results if I could seat the bullets deeper in the 10/22, but it's just difficult to do given the small opening (regardless of whether you come in from the ejection port or underneath via the mag well).

Unfortunately, I do not have a break action or bolt action to experiment with.

[w30wcf]

"It's possible that I would get different results if I could seat the bullets deeper in the 10/22..."
Yes, if the 55 gr. bullet could be seated further ahead from the power load, in effect, to increase cartridge capacity, the No.2 load could be used successfully without incident. The question is though, how much further into the barrel and how to put it there?

Ideally though, a 37-40 gr. cast bullet will work much better since it is the proper weight and may just chamber without too much effort since its engagement length is shorter.

The NOE 37 gr mold would be pretty ideal for your application.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=24_117&products_id=413

50/1 alloy would be a bit softer than 50/50 (assuming lead / ww) and much softer than if the mix were of lino/lead. My 50/1 has a bhn of 5.5, or only about 1 point above pure lead. I made it with known sources of lead and tin.

I am sending you a PM

w30wcf

50/1 bullets are pretty soft (5.2 bhn), only 1 point above pure lead. I used known pure lead and known pure tin

[Chev. William]

IF, and I do mean IF, You have a series of Sizing Dies to use, you might consider the 35 Grain JHP .257" Diameter bullets.
I guess it would take time to get them down to .224" in .005" steps.
Alternatively the Lighter weight .223" bullets might work if sized down to match the bore of your rifle (i believe it may be .219", you might need to check that).

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Multigunner]

I tried the blanks I got at a yard sale in my Ruger single six .22 magnum and my High Standard Sentinel revolvers and they worked fine, not vey loud really.
Neither of these well worn revolvers has tight heaspace, but I didn't notice any protusion of the case head past the rear face of the cylinders.

I'll try firing a few .22 pellets later if I can find my stash of these. I haven't obtained a new exhaust valve for my 78g yet so I've only been using my .177 pellet guns lately.

[jmorris]

The 55 gr bullet with the #2 load resulted in a case head separation and quite a bit of fire coming out the ejection port.


The 10/22 will spit out its extractor if you keep doing that.

Might order another one and extra spring too as it generally takes off with it.

[Chev. William]

I tried the blanks I got at a yard sale in my Ruger single six .22 magnum and my High Standard Sentinel revolvers and they worked fine, not vey loud really.
Neither of these well worn revolvers has tight heaspace, but I didn't notice any protusion of the case head past the rear face of the cylinders.

I'll try firing a few .22 pellets later if I can find my stash of these. I haven't obtained a new exhaust valve for my 78g yet so I've only been using my .177 pellet guns lately.

What are the "Blanks" you bought at a Yard sale??
Any marking on the container(s) or on the Blanks themselves?
Any Grade PTL will sound 'weak' if it is Discharged with out any 'projectile' or restriction to build pressure against.
A 'Starting Pistol' blank, on the other hand, should make 'Noise' without a restriction.
Please Enlighten us.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[NavyVet1959]

The 10/22 will spit out its extractor if you keep doing that.

Might order another one and extra spring too as it generally takes off with it.

I found someone on TexasGunTrader.com who had an old Westpoint Cotter & Company Model 40 single-shot .22LR for sale. Looking it up on the web seems to indicate that it was made my Marlin. Using the Marlin numbering scheme, it appears that it was made in 1969.

I met him today and verified that it would fire by using one of the power loads while pointing it at the ground. There was so much traffic noise that no one even noticed it.

The rifle is a little on the "rough side". It looks like it was either a "truck gun" or had been sitting up in a closet or attic and neglected for quite a few years. Looks like he might had taken a bit of mineral spirits and a piece of steel wool to remove some rust on the exterior of the barrel, but the bore looked good. The wood looks more of a black color, so I'm thinking that it was either coated in black grease in the back of a truck or someone along the way thought that using some black paint to stain the wood would be a good option. It definitely does not look like the brown color that I see in other photos of this gun on the web.

For example, this image (that I captured off the web from someone trying to sell one):

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/westpoint-cotter-and-co-model-40.jpg

But, when I take some mineral spirits and steel wool to the wood, it looks like there might be a nice grain hiding under there waiting for a little TLC.

Not that it really matters... This is just so I can do some testing and not risk any of my more expensive firearms. :)

Also, the bolt is easily removable, so it makes it easier to run a rod up there to seat one of the AR bullets during testing. Ideally, I should make the chamber a bit deeper so that I do not have to hammer the bullet into the rifling.

So, I got home and tested it. Had to hammer the bullet into the rifling a bit for both tests. The test with the #1 (gray) power load worked acceptably. The brass ejected without a problem. The test with the #2 (brown) power load would not eject. The extractor popped off the rim of the brass and I had to run a brass rod down the barrel to get the cartridge to eject. Both rounds are pretty quiet in my garage without hearing protection.

[Chev. William]

Is there any difference in The Length of the two fired PTLs?

i am wondering if the #2 is longer as fired than the Previous use Cases (.22 RF of whatever). This MIGHT be it sticking due to Crud or Corroded Chamber giving teh fired case something to 'lock onto'.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[NavyVet1959]

Well, I finished the quick "refinish" -- basically just scrubbing it down successively in mineral spirits, turpentine, and acetone and then putting a coat of Danish Oil and Minwax on it. It looks a lot better than it did. Not anywhere close to a "great" refinish job, but it at least looks good enough that I would not be embarrassed if someone saw me shooting it.

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/westpoint-cotter-and-co-model-40-01-480w.jpg

Previously, the entire gun was about the color of the trigger guard -- in other words, it looked like axle grease.

[NavyVet1959]

Is there any difference in The Length of the two fired PTLs?

i am wondering if the #2 is longer as fired than the Previous use Cases (.22 RF of whatever). This MIGHT be it sticking due to Crud or Corroded Chamber giving teh fired case something to 'lock onto'.


Nope, they look to be exactly the same length. I'm thinking that the #2 loads are just generating more pressure and they are forming themselves to the chamber quite well. With both loads, the bullet is being seated just forward of the crimp nose of the power load. I'm having to use a rod and a small hammer to tap the bullet that far into the chamber. Maybe a 0.224" resizing die would allow the bullet to drop further. If I had a .22 chamber reamer, I would try making the chamber a bit deeper.

[Multigunner]

The blanks I found at a yard sale come in a grey box marked on the front "12CW 100 grey power level" with a circular chart showing the various power levels and one side is marked Brass while the other is marked Nickel.. Theres a pointer pointing to the number 1 on the chart on the brass side.
The end flap is marked 12CW 100 grey power level Ramset Piston Tool Powder Charge.

The box looks pretty old but there's no date on it.

The case head is coated with grey paint. The headstamp looks like a stylized cursive W.
The blank case is crimped and about as long altogether as a .22 short cartridge.
The case is necked down quite a bit 1/3rd the way up to the crimp.

I'll try reaming out the chamber of the old blank revolver I found. The length of the blank is probably why it doesn't fit.
The blank revolver seems to be one of those intended for launching the soft sock puppet like birds used to train bird dogs to retrieve fallen birds in the field. The bore is not blocked in any way.
The cylinder looks to be of cast zinc or some similar very grainy pot metal. A blank with any higher power than the number 1 would probably crack this cylinder.

Still haven't found my .22 pellet stash. I'll let you guys know if I try firing a pellet with these blanks in the High standard. The Ruger is a stronger gun but its a .22 Magnum so the blank case is a loose fit and would likely cause some gas escape at the breech.
When fired the necked portion does not expand and the crimp while opened evenly isn't ironed out much.

[NavyVet1959]

The blanks I found at a yard sale come in a grey box marked on the front "12CW 100 grey power level" with a circular chart showing the various power levels and one side is marked Brass while the other is marked Nickel.. Theres a pointer pointing to the number 1 on the chart on the brass side.
The end flap is marked 12CW 100 grey power level Ramset Piston Tool Powder Charge.

The box looks pretty old but there's no date on it.

The case head is coated with grey paint. The headstamp looks like a stylized cursive W.
The blank case is crimped and about as long altogether as a .22 short cartridge.
The case is necked down quite a bit 1/3rd the way up to the crimp.

I'll try reaming out the chamber of the old blank revolver I found. The length of the blank is probably why it doesn't fit.
The blank revolver seems to be one of those intended for launching the soft sock puppet like birds used to train bird dogs to retrieve fallen birds in the field. The bore is not blocked in any way.
The cylinder looks to be of cast zinc or some similar very grainy pot metal. A blank with any higher power than the number 1 would probably crack this cylinder.

Still haven't found my .22 pellet stash. I'll let you guys know if I try firing a pellet with these blanks in the High standard. The Ruger is a stronger gun but its a .22 Magnum so the blank case is a loose fit and would likely cause some gas escape at the breech.
When fired the necked portion does not expand and the crimp while opened evenly isn't ironed out much.

You have a #1 brass load, so it's the lowest power of the power loads. It should be about .22LR in power. If the cylinder is zinc, I don't think I would chance putting a bullet in the chamber with the power load.

Using the #2 loads definitely expands the crimp a lot more. That's probably why it is sticking in the chamber of the single shot rifle that I tested with yesterday.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

So, I got home and tested it. Had to hammer the bullet into the rifling a bit for both tests. The test with the #1 (gray) power load worked acceptably. The brass ejected without a problem. The test with the #2 (brown) power load would not eject. The extractor popped off the rim of the brass and I had to run a brass rod down the barrel to get the cartridge to eject. Both rounds are pretty quiet in my garage without hearing protection.

This sounds like just the sort of rifle you needed, and much better than letting everything you do work on the extractor of a fairly expensive semiauto. The brown blanks are obviously too much, as it is unlikely they make the brass any weaker than in firearms rounds.

It would probably be possible to make up a sort of dummy blank on a metal strip or tape, to use the bolt to force home the bullet exactly the same distance each time.

[Chev. William]

For "Pushing" bullets in to a repeatable depth, consider trimming a 'snap cap' length to what you Need and using it to Push the bullet in using the Rifle bolt.

If that is not robust enough, you could make up a Steel or Brass duplicate to use in place of your Blanks as a Push Tool.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Multigunner]

"If that is not robust enough, you could make up a Steel or Brass duplicate to use in place of your Blanks as a Push Tool."
A lot of the old single shot target rifles worked much the same way. Some inserted the bullet into the rifling from the breech with a wooden probe while others loaded the bullet from the muzzle using a false muzzle and lever action ramrod , both using a powder charge housed in a non bulleted cartridge case with only a card wad in the case mouth.

Those that loaded the bullet from the muzzle did so to prevent the formation of a fin at the base at each indented groove in the bullet.

If I can legally make a cane gun by mounting the .177 barrel in an adapter that chokes down just ahead of the chamber so that the barrel is not capable of chambering a .17 cartridge either factory or wild cat it would in effect be a muzzle loader that can't chamber fixed ammunition. Much like the Mexican .177/.22 blank small game rifles.
I really can't see any practical use for such a small caliber cane gun. it certainly wouldn't stop a vicious dog though it would kill a snake easily enough at point blank range. Like a switchblade in some states it might be legal to own but still be illegal to carry.
I really don't know the ins and outs of the legality. if anyone does I'd appreciate some input.

[NavyVet1959]

For "Pushing" bullets in to a repeatable depth, consider trimming a 'snap cap' length to what you Need and using it to Push the bullet in using the Rifle bolt.

If that is not robust enough, you could make up a Steel or Brass duplicate to use in place of your Blanks as a Push Tool.


I tried pushing the bullets with one of the .22 power loads and even with more force than I really wanted to put on the bolt, it wouldn't seat deep enough for the bolt to close. The 55gr Lee Bator bullets that I'm using are cast from either straight wheelweight or at 50:50 mix of WW and pure lead and are water dropped. They are powdercoated and sized to 0.225". Maybe a softer alloy would allow me to seat them with just the force of my hand on the bolt.

From what I understand though, the new Lee C225-55-RF has a longer nose on it, so it's possible that it might seat deeper and allow the power load to push the bullet in without needing any force.

I think I'll try casting some of my Lee .225 Bator bullets tonight with pure lead and see if it will seat.

I was kind of wanting to be able to use my existing stock of powdercoated harder bullets though since they could handle more velocity if needed.

Another option might be to get a 0.225" reamer and extend the chamber a bit. Maybe something like one of these:

http://www.victornet.com/subdepartments/Chucking-Reamers-Metric-and-Decimal/1784.html

[NavyVet1959]

If I can legally make a cane gun by mounting the .177 barrel in an adapter that chokes down just ahead of the chamber so that the barrel is not capable of chambering a .17 cartridge either factory or wild cat it would in effect be a muzzle loader that can't chamber fixed ammunition. Much like the Mexican .177/.22 blank small game rifles.
I really can't see any practical use for such a small caliber cane gun. it certainly wouldn't stop a vicious dog though it would kill a snake easily enough at point blank range. Like a switchblade in some states it might be legal to own but still be illegal to carry.
I really don't know the ins and outs of the legality. if anyone does I'd appreciate some input.

If I was wanting to make a "cane gun" for supposed defense against dogs, I would want it to be heavy enough that it could be used as a *club* after that first shot. :) Maybe something like a baseball bat, drilled out, and a barrel epoxied into the center of it? :)

[psweigle]

My son and I have been doing this very thing in an old Stevens favorite with 22 pellets and powerloads for a while now. It is actually pretty darn accurate and a lot of fun. We put the pellet on with a cleaning rod and then put the powerloads behind it. Tape on a cleaning rod assures properly seated pellet. Never bothered to chrony it though.

[NavyVet1959]

I tried more of the bullets that I had previously cast (either 50:50 WW:Pb or straight WW) tonight to see how much I would need to shorten the bullets before they could chamber by just hand pressure. I ended up needing to remove about 0.15" from the base of the bullet to get it to chamber. This ended up removing over 5 gr of weight from the bullet. Another option that I tried was chucking the bullet in my drill press and tapering the front a bit. I didn't have great luck with that until I tried just putting the file flat against the bullet and removing the front driving band. That actually would allow it to chamber, but you could see where the rifling was touching the bullet as it was seated.

I tried casting some pure lead bullets (air-cooled) and gave them a try. There was a bit of resistance, but it was possible to close the bolt with just hand pressure on the bolt. Seating a bullet this way and then removing it showed rifling pretty much the entire length of the bullet.

Another thing I tried tonight was to load a normal copper jacketed bullet bullet that was originally for a .223 / 5.56 and try to fire it. I tried it with the #1 load and it would not exit the barrel. I tried an additional #1 load, still stuck. I then tried two #2 loads, but it was still stuck. It was stuck about halfway down the barrel. Interestingly, when firing the #1 and #2 loads, it was VERY quiet. I actually thought that the primer had not even fired. I could hear the gases slowly exhausting though and when I pulled back on the bolt, a bit more gas escaped. When I used a rod to knock the bullet back out the breech, I could see all the micro grooves from the rifling.

[Chev. William]

I tried pushing the bullets with one of the .22 power loads and even with more force than I really wanted to put on the bolt, it wouldn't seat deep enough for the bolt to close. The 55gr Lee Bator bullets that I'm using are cast from either straight wheelweight or at 50:50 mix of WW and pure lead and are water dropped. They are powdercoated and sized to 0.225". Maybe a softer alloy would allow me to seat them with just the force of my hand on the bolt.

From what I understand though, the new Lee C225-55-RF has a longer nose on it, so it's possible that it might seat deeper and allow the power load to push the bullet in without needing any force.

I think I'll try casting some of my Lee .225 Bator bullets tonight with pure lead and see if it will seat.

I was kind of wanting to be able to use my existing stock of powdercoated harder bullets though since they could handle more velocity if needed.

Another option might be to get a 0.225" reamer and extend the chamber a bit. Maybe something like one of these:

http://www.victornet.com/subdepartments/Chucking-Reamers-Metric-and-Decimal/1784.html

Using a 'chucking Reamer' of Straight design would leave a Sharp face to the Lands in your barrel, which would cut chunks out of the bullet rather than squeezing it down into the bullet via the tapered throat. This would leave Lead 'chunks' in your bore in front of the next bullet to be inserted and fired.

Chev. William

[NavyVet1959]

Using a 'chucking Reamer' of Straight design would leave a Sharp face to the Lands in your barrel, which would cut chunks out of the bullet rather than squeezing it down into the bullet via the tapered throat. This would leave Lead 'chunks' in your bore in front of the next bullet to be inserted and fired.


I wonder if the end of the chucking reamer could be tapered a bit by putting it in a drill press and sliding a whet stone along it at a slight angle while it rotated. Assuming that the steel that they use is too hard for using a file...

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I tried more of the bullets that I had previously cast (either 50:50 WW:Pb or straight WW) tonight to see how much I would need to shorten the bullets before they could chamber by just hand pressure. I ended up needing to remove about 0.15" from the base of the bullet to get it to chamber. This ended up removing over 5 gr of weight from the bullet. Another option that I tried was chucking the bullet in my drill press and tapering the front a bit. I didn't have great luck with that until I tried just putting the file flat against the bullet and removing the front driving band. That actually would allow it to chamber, but you could see where the rifling was touching the bullet as it was seated.

I tried casting some pure lead bullets (air-cooled) and gave them a try. There was a bit of resistance, but it was possible to close the bolt with just hand pressure on the bolt. Seating a bullet this way and then removing it showed rifling pretty much the entire length of the bullet.

Another thing I tried tonight was to load a normal copper jacketed bullet bullet that was originally for a .223 / 5.56 and try to fire it. I tried it with the #1 load and it would not exit the barrel. I tried an additional #1 load, still stuck. I then tried two #2 loads, but it was still stuck. It was stuck about halfway down the barrel. Interestingly, when firing the #1 and #2 loads, it was VERY quiet. I actually thought that the primer had not even fired. I could hear the gases slowly exhausting though and when I pulled back on the bolt, a bit more gas escaped. When I used a rod to knock the bullet back out the breech, I could see all the micro grooves from the rifling.

A firearm is just the simplest kind of heat engine, like your car or a steam engine, except that you use the piston only once and don't need a crank. General Hatcher actually experimented with a fully plugged .30-06, from a safe distance, and found it held together. He left it for some time before knocking up the bolt handle. I don't remember whether he felt the outside immediately after firing, but I should think it was remarkably hot for a single shot. It opened with no more than a sharp pop, revealing a dirty, partly liquid residue. When the heat is dissipated, the energy is gone with it.

[Chev. William]

Yes, that would work slowly but it would leave the Reamer "dull" in that the stoned tapered section would not cut cleanly, leaving poor finish to the surface it 'cut'.

If you examine a reamer carefully you will find the "Cutting Edges" are very Carefully shaped to present a smooth Sharp edge without the area 'behind' the edge Dragging on the cut Surface.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[NavyVet1959]

Yes, that would work slowly but it would leave the Reamer "dull" in that the stoned tapered section would not cut cleanly, leaving poor finish to the surface it 'cut'.

If you examine a reamer carefully you will find the "Cutting Edges" are very Carefully shaped to present a smooth Sharp edge without the area 'behind' the edge Dragging on the cut Surface.

I think that another issue that I would have would be that the reamer is not long enough to reach the chamber if I go in through the receiver with the bolt removed. That means I would need to remove the barrel and I would prefer to not have to do that.

[NavyVet1959]

Decided to try an experiment with a muzzle loaded "shot shell" today using the .22 power load. I loaded the power load first. I then took a small chunk of paper towel and rammed it down the barrel as a sort of wad to separate the powder from the pellets. I then dropped two small dippers of shot down the barrel. I had previously measured it to be 50 gr of pellets. I then took another piece of paper towel and rammed it down the barrel over the top of the pellets so that if I tilted the barrel, the pellets wouldn't just roll out.

From about 10 ft away, the pattern was probably about 6" in diameter. As far as I could tell, all of the pellets ended up hitting the piece of 8.5"x11" 20-lb paper that I was using as a target. I could see this possibly being useful for close in shots on pests.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I think that another issue that I would have would be that the reamer is not long enough to reach the chamber if I go in through the receiver with the bolt removed. That means I would need to remove the barrel and I would prefer to not have to do that.

The reamer makers generally sell extensions, but they are expensive for occasional use. I've used an ordinary socket wrench extension a centrefire reamer, but I don't know if rimfire ones have a square, a flat or what. You could temporarily epoxy it into a metal tube. With bottlenecked cases it should be fairly thick walled, or torsional vibration might cause chatter. But that is unlikely with a rimfire.

[NavyVet1959]

Saw a listing on a site the other day for a rolling block in a .25 Stevens Rimfire. Given the experiments with the .22 power loads, I'm curious if the .25 power loads would fit in that rifle.

I think he's wrong about it being a rolling block though. It looks more like a falling block rifle.

EDITED:
Interestingly, it looks like the .27 power loads would be a better fit for that chamber...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?152247-25-cal-nail-gun-blanks-for-Steven-s-SS

[fiberoptik]

Decided to try an experiment with a muzzle loaded "shot shell" today using the .22 power load. I loaded the power load first. I then took a small chunk of paper towel and rammed it down the barrel as a sort of wad to separate the powder from the pellets. I then dropped two small dippers of shot down the barrel. I had previously measured it to be 50 gr of pellets. I then took another piece of paper towel and rammed it down the barrel over the top of the pellets so that if I tilted the barrel, the pellets wouldn't just roll out.

From about 10 ft away, the pattern was probably about 6" in diameter. As far as I could tell, all of the pellets ended up hitting the piece of 8.5"x11" 20-lb paper that I was using as a target. I could see this possibly being useful for close in shots on pests.

Back on the farm we used .22 lr shot loads in the barn for rats up close, especially in the cow feed were they liked to tunnel. Left no damage. I believe gramps .22 was a smoothbore. It was an old single shot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[snowtigger]

You guys might try contacting Bullshop. When he was in Alaska I was in his shop. He showed me a Ruger 22 pistol that had been converted to 22 Cooper. It used a Cooper case with a 22 cast bullet. I don't remember the primer or the powder load, but he said at that time (before Obama) it was cheaper to load than 22 rimfire. If I remember right the cases were expensive, but should last a lifetime.

[Chev. William]

I think that another issue that I would have would be that the reamer is not long enough to reach the chamber if I go in through the receiver with the bolt removed. That means I would need to remove the barrel and I would prefer to not have to do that.

There are Chamber Reamers designed to be PULLED using a rod down through the Bore instead of PUSHED from Behind.
I have a Used one for .30 Carbine I bought on Ebay a couple of years ago. It currently is at my gunsmith's shop to chamber a New LONG Rifle barrel for a M1 Carbine Receiver.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Traffer]

I have been loading 22lr for over a year. I use the same 55 grain bullet BUT I CUT IT DOWN TO 40 GRAINS. Also, you never need lead harder than 7 or 8bhn. If I were you I would not water drop. You can cut them down using a "tube" that is just bigger in diameter than the bullet with a narrowing bore to hold the bullet. Then using a #2 drill bit spin the drill on the base of the bullet cutting it to the size you want. Here are some pictures of the way I used to do it:
181021181022181023181020

[NavyVet1959]

Well, I finally got around to testing the #1 and #2 power loads with the 55 gr cast (pure lead) bullets today...

With the #1 load, I was getting 959 fps and extraction was possible via the bolt. That works out to be 112 ft-lbs.

With the #2 load, I was getting 1349 fps and extraction was not possible via the bolt (I had to use a rod). That works out to be 222 ft-lbs.

So, the #1 load is looking like 10 ft-lbs more muzzle energy than the CCI Standard Velocity rounds, but a bit less than the "high velocity" or "hyper velocity" offerings.

The #2 load looks to be definitely above any of the .22LR offerings, but not quite in the .22 mag power range.

Now, on a side note... I had installed a Daisy 4x scope from an air gun on the rifle, but I couldn't see to see where the bullets were hitting. They were definitely not hitting the steel plate I was aiming at. Eventually, I just gave up on it and switched to iron sights. I didn't want to be shooting through the chrony with a scope that I was not sure where it was placing bullets. It was getting late and I wanted to test the velocity before the sun went down. Surprisingly, those old iron sights were pretty accurate. At 25 yards, the lead splatters on the steel plate were touching. Not bad considering my old eyes and the fact that I was shooting into the sun. :)

[Duckdog]

Old West bullet molds sells an outstanding mold for 22 LR in the 40 grain range that is already heeled. I bought one and it is a 3 banger and casts perfect, heeled 22 LR bullets. I also bought one of his shell holders and bullet crimp dies. I made my own sizing die. With this setup, a guy can crank out a quite a few loaded rounds in a relatively short time. I use the old H48 primer mix, so that is very simple, too. All and all, it is a fun thing to mess with.

[smkummer]

richodge66 has hit the nail on the head with a light loaded 22 hornet. I have a Colt/Sako 461 in 223 which is a dandy of a rifle that I am shooting lymans 225415 (50 grain) at about 2200 FPS. So its in-between 22 magnum and 22 hornet. I will try the 3.5 231 load next to see if I can shoot that one in the back yard. I guess I need to start a post on low powered 223. And I will.

Of course that doesn't solve the problem of how to shoot some of our beloved 22 LR rifles for less than 10 cents a round that scalpers are charging. So this is a good thread for those of use that must go this route. I am lucky that I have a friend that works for Cabela's and can occasionally get a deal (normal price on bulk 22 ammo .05 each) when I need.

[Multigunner]

Just had an idea.
Awhile back I experimented with making a .22 LR chamber adapter for my .22 Magnum Ruger Single Six. I simply cut the rim/base off a fired magnum case and loaded the LR round in through the case mouth using the former base of the mag case as the mouth of the adapter.
It worked okay but the fired LR case stuck tight in the adapter making the adapter a single use proposition.

I'm thinking that the No.1 blank probably would not expand enough to stick tight if I used the adapter to hold a .22 pellet.

Since I have no other use for the once fired magnum cases cutting or grinding away the base on a dozen or so cases to keep for use as lower noise short range pest removal loads might be worth the effort. There should be no problem preloading the pellet in the proper position, perhaps securing it with a thick bullet lube or wax. Should work for .22 Magnum rifles as well.

[Traffer]

I was just thinking... the 17 WSM is derived from the 27 caliber nail gun cartridge. Wouldn't it be interesting to make a single shot 27 Caliber rimfire rifle? Shoot maybe a 65 or 70 grain bullet? I would love to see something like that. Or even use the primed case to make 27 cal rimfire rounds and make a 27 caliber rifle for that. That makes my mouth water.

[NavyVet1959]

I was just thinking... the 17 WSM is derived from the 27 caliber nail gun cartridge. Wouldn't it be interesting to make a single shot 27 Caliber rimfire rifle? Shoot maybe a 65 or 70 grain bullet? I would love to see something like that. Or even use the primed case to make 27 cal rimfire rounds and make a 27 caliber rifle for that. That makes my mouth water.

Well, here's a barrel for you...

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/17-blank-17-caliber-1-9-raw-barrel-blank-21-x-1/

Just $45...

Just need to chamber it...

And build the rest of the gun around it... :)

The thought of casting for .17 makes my eyes and fingers hurt...

[trooperdan]

I see there is a seller in Oregon on eBay that has 8 5,000 rd cases of .25 cal power loads for $40 each and free shipping... tempting. Heck, 5,000 of just about anything for $40 is tempting!

[trooperdan]

Double tap, sorry!

[prsman23]

Last time I bought .22LR ammo, it was around $7-8 for a brick of 500

What year was that?
Have you taken into account inflation?
9/10 on these types of threads if you factor inflation into the equation .22 is noticeably cheaper in today's money. It's nice to reflect and say that you bought it for $7. But in what wages were for the time it's not as good of a deal as you might think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Traffer]

If I had 5k rounds of 25 cal nail gun charges, I would make a gun to shoot them.

I see there is a seller in Oregon on eBay that has 8 5,000 rd cases of .25 cal power loads for $40 each and free shipping... tempting. Heck, 5,000 of just about anything for $40 is tempting!

[Traffer]

The cutting edges of chucking reamers have a taper to the sharp edges so there is clearance for the cutting edge. Much like a drill bit. I have tapered chucking reamers by spinning them in a drill press and tapering the end with a dremel and a diamond wheel. After tapering, took a stone and gave the flutes a slight bevel on the taper. Had to use a 10x loupe to see what I was doing though. I tried to make a chucking reamer smaller in diameter the full length once. Free hand with a dremel. Not such a good idea. lol But I buy the reamers on eBay that are under $5 in price. So no big loss. Here is a link of a guy who does it on a lathe. There are lucky people in this world that have lathes.
https://youtu.be/lt_8yCLdnOE



I wonder if the end of the chucking reamer could be tapered a bit by putting it in a drill press and sliding a whet stone along it at a slight angle while it rotated. Assuming that the steel that they use is too hard for using a file...

[NavyVet1959]

I see there is a seller in Oregon on eBay that has 8 5,000 rd cases of .25 cal power loads for $40 each and free shipping... tempting. Heck, 5,000 of just about anything for $40 is tempting!

Looks like the .25 caliber power loads are very close to the diameter of a .22 mag (WMR / Winchester Magnum Rimfire) and the .22 Winchester Rimfire, depending upon how tight or loose the particular firearm's chamber might be.

[trooperdan]

The .25 cal power loads are listed on eBay for as cheap as $40 shipped for 10K loads! Why so cheap? Is the .25 cal power tool obsolete or something? Surely we can find a use for 10K rounds for $40 total coat!

[Traffer]

Anybody have a picture of these things. How long are they? Maybe I could turn them into full cartridges with bullets. I have a gun that I am in the process of making. A 22 Mag. At this point it wouldn't take anything at all to make it into a 25 cal necked down to .224" for 22 bullets.




The .25 cal power loads are listed on eBay for as cheap as $40 shipped for 10K loads! Why so cheap? Is the .25 cal power tool obsolete or something? Surely we can find a use for 10K rounds for $40 total coat!

[Traffer]

I looked around on eBay could not find those. All the ones I saw were fairly expensive. No Wait...Found them. Yup 5K loads for $40 alright.


I see there is a seller in Oregon on eBay that has 8 5,000 rd cases of .25 cal power loads for $40 each and free shipping... tempting. Heck, 5,000 of just about anything for $40 is tempting!

[NavyVet1959]

The .25 cal power loads are listed on eBay for as cheap as $40 shipped for 10K loads! Why so cheap? Is the .25 cal power tool obsolete or something? Surely we can find a use for 10K rounds for $40 total coat!

Didn't see any listings for 10K for $40, but saw a couple of 5K for $40.

They are probably fairly old stock. The ones that I bought back toward the beginning of this thread appeared to be from perhaps quite a few years ago from the style of packaging, but they all work well. With the .25 caliber ones that the person is selling, I would say that they are probably pretty old stock also. Just for curiosity's sake, I ordered 5K of the black ones and 5K of the brown ones. Maybe the brown ones will work in the .22 mag NAA cylinder. The black ones are probably the same power as the purple ones. They don't use the black color code anymore as far as I can tell, but I did find a web page that seemed to indicate that both black and purple were for the same power level. I'm not sure what I'll use the black ones for. The purple are listed as 755 fps with a 350 gr projectile, so 443 ft-lbs. I'm thinking some sort of chamber adapter with an offset hole for the rimfire power load to be inserted in so that the firing pin will strike the edge might work.

[trooperdan]

Well, my Omark .25 cal power loads arrived today, S4 power. These are small, .297 rim, .246 body and only .383 in length. Now to find a use for them!

[NavyVet1959]

Well, my Omark .25 cal power loads arrived today, S4 power. These are small, .297 rim, .246 body and only .383 in length. Now to find a use for them!

Do you have any .22 mag firearms that you can see if they will fit? They look pretty close and with the SAAMI tolerances, it's entirely possible that a firearm chambered for .22 mag might work with the .25 caliber power loads.

If I had the rimfire firing pin conversion on my Thompson Encore, I would know exactly how I would use them. I would create chamber adapters that would work with my .223 and .300 WinMag barrels that I have for the Encore.

[Traffer]

If you have the right sized head on the case of cartridge, you could drill a hole in the cartridge just big enough to fit these. If the hole was offset and the dimensions were correct the normal firing pin would hit the rim of the nail gun cartridge no matter how it was placed in the chamber. I don't know the magic diameter of head for that, but someone mentioned 303 British. Then they could be used as kind of a primer/some of the powder substitute. Maybe a 45acp or 45 colt. You might have to make up some dummy shells that did not have center holes for the primer if the primer holes got in the way of doing this...just a thought.
I have a 22 mag and I ordered some of these so when they come I will try them in the mag and let you folks know.

[NavyVet1959]

If you have the right sized head on the case of cartridge, you could drill a hole in the cartridge just big enough to fit these. If the hole was offset and the dimensions were correct the normal firing pin would hit the rim of the nail gun cartridge no matter how it was placed in the chamber. I don't know the magic diameter of head for that, but someone mentioned 303 British. Then they could be used as kind of a primer/some of the powder substitute. Maybe a 45acp or 45 colt. You might have to make up some dummy shells that did not have center holes for the primer if the primer holes got in the way of doing this...just a thought.
I have a 22 mag and I ordered some of these so when they come I will try them in the mag and let you folks know.

The only .22 mag that I have is a .22 mag cylinder for the NAA mini-revolver. I'll try the #2 (brown) load in it, but I would be rather hesitant to try the black load in it. Assuming it really is the same as the purple loads, that's probably a bit high.

According the the estimated delivery time on the UPS website, my 10K of the .25 caliber power loads should be in on Wednesday. I'll at least get a chance to see if it will fit in the .22 mag cylinder at that time. I don't think that the NAA cylinder has that loose of tolerances since I had normal .22 mag ammo whose rim was thick enough that it prevented the cylinder from rotating. It's quite possible that I'm going to have to attempt to make a chamber adapter on my mini-lathe.

[rbuck351]

I have been reading this thread and it got me to thinking. So, having a contender in 256win and a box of #3 Ramset 22 blanks, I drilled out the back end of a 256 case. Thats when I realized the back end of the case isn't thick enough to support the entire length of the blank case and the mouth will probably open up like a rivit and won't push back out. I then made a chamber adapter with a short neck and dropped a 75gr cast boolit in the chamber loaded the #3 load and fired it. It made a loud bang and the empty load came out of the adapter without much effort. I fired another lengthwise into a piece of semi dry spruce fire wood to check for penetration. It made it 6 inches. My order for 5000 of the 25cal loads is supposed to be here Fri. and I will open the adapter to fit those. I didn't check the velocity of the #3 22cal ramset loads but I'm guessing somewhere around 1500 fps with the 75gr bullet. This is going to be some cheap shooting.

[NavyVet1959]

I have been reading this thread and it got me to thinking. So, having a contender in 256win and a box of #3 Ramset 22 blanks, I drilled out the back end of a 256 case. Thats when I realized the back end of the case isn't thick enough to support the entire length of the blank case and the mouth will probably open up like a rivit and won't push back out. I then made a chamber adapter with a short neck and dropped a 75gr cast boolit in the chamber loaded the #3 load and fired it. It made a loud bang and the empty load came out of the adapter without much effort. I fired another lengthwise into a piece of semi dry spruce fire wood to check for penetration. It made it 6 inches. My order for 5000 of the 25cal loads is supposed to be here Fri. and I will open the adapter to fit those. I didn't check the velocity of the #3 22cal ramset loads but I'm guessing somewhere around 1500 fps with the 75gr bullet. This is going to be some cheap shooting.

I was at Wal-mart today and went over to the ammo cabinet to see if .22LRs were becoming more available. Surprisingly, I saw a pretty good assortment, most going for around $3.50-4.50 per 50. I did see 2 of the 500-round bricks of Remington Thunderbolts and they were going for $24.95. The last I paid was around $7-8, so that's quite a jump, but I suspect that is probably as good as you'll find currently.

On the other hand, these power loads were $40 for 5K of them, so that mean $4 per 500. Let's assume $1.25 per pound of lead (most of my lead is $1 per pound or less when I buy it though). That works out to be $4.91 per 500 55gr bullets using the Lee "Bator" mold that I have. So, I'm looking at $8.91 per 500 rounds. I guess I can live with that. I'll probably fire a lot of those at a bullet stop / recovery barrel, so I suspect that the majority of the lead will be recovered and as such, the lead costs will go down quite a bit.

And besides, it's not like you can actually *buy* loaded .22LR rounds with 55gr bullets in them anyway. :)

I'm thinking those black color code power loads might lend themselves to a my 7.7x58 Arisaka or .300 WinMag Thompson Encore if I can just create a chamber adapter for them.

The Thompson Contender that you have supposedly has the ability as it comes from the factory to fire both rimfire or centerfire ammo. They didn't do that with the Encore. The two different rimfire firing pin conversions that I've seen so far go for $50 and $75 each.

Of course, I'll need to open up one of each of the power loads and weigh the powders before shooting them. I'm not that concerned about the #2 (brown) load, but the black colored power load is probably something that I should look at a bit more carefully before just trying it out in a revolver with cylinder walls that might not be thick enough. :)

I'm thinking that a chamber adapter could be made for the 7.7x58 or .300 WinMag by drilling a 0.25" hole straight down the center of the chamber adapter, but stopping maybe 1" from the base of the adapter. Then another hole could be drilled off-center from the base at whatever diameter is necessary for the .22 or .25 caliber power loads. I'll have to draw it out to see, but I'm thinking the two holes will intersect well enough to allow the gases to get redirected with minimal loss in velocity.

[Texas by God]

A late and short example concerning the OP; my Rossi break open single shot is perfect for playing like this. I used a Yellow .22 power load and regular .22 pellets- accuracy was ok across the 40 ft workshop. I filed it under Useful Knowledge.
Best, Thomas.

[rbuck351]

Navyvet
When you drill the hole for the power load, make sure you fit the rim rebate close in size to the rim of the power load or it will split the rim off. My first chamber adapter is in the trash. The Encore and for that matter the Contender I think are both strong enough to handle about any power load with any reasonable boolit weight. I suspect that anything but the lightest power load would split rims in any 22LR firearm that does not closely enclose the rim. I also have a 22H that I will build an adapter for and use a cast 37gr boolit. That should get some fair velocity.

[Traffer]

My batch of 5k will be here next Monday. I still don't know exactly how big or long these things are. But the excitement is building. This is so much fun, to see all the interesting ideas that castboolit members are coming up with. By the way people are talking (including the guy I bought these from) the black loads are really powerful. I bought the black. My process is to be making an almost necked down version for the rifle that I am building. I have it chambered for a 22 mag right now but am going to change the chambering for these .25 cal loads. I am hoping to actually attach a bullet to them, or in them. One thing I thought of was to drill about a .15" hole in the very middle of the crimp and either expand the crimp back open to accept a 22cal slug or to make something that will attach on top of the crimp and hold on to the charge well enough to make the powder charge and bullet a single round. But that is just some wild speculation at this time as I do not even know what these guys actually look like yet. But by hook or by crook I will get them shooting.

[NavyVet1959]

I am hoping to actually attach a bullet to them, or in them.

I'm not really concerned with that. I figure separating powder charge from projectile was good enough for the 16" guns on the Iowa class battleships, it's good enough for me. :)

[Traffer]

Now if we had one of those powder charges we would never have to buy powder again! Wonder how many grains (lol) of powder a 16" gun would load?


I'm not really concerned with that. I figure separating powder charge from projectile was good enough for the 16" guns on the Iowa class battleships, it's good enough for me. :)

[NavyVet1959]

Now if we had one of those powder charges we would never have to buy powder again! Wonder how many grains (lol) of powder a 16" gun would load?

According to the wiki page:



The D839 propellant (smokeless powder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder)) grain used for full charges issued for this gun was 2 inches long (5.08 cm), 1 inch in diameter (2.54 cm) and had seven perforations, each 0.060 inches in diameter (0.152 cm) with a web thickness range of 0.193 to 0.197 inches (0.490 to 0.500 cm) between the perforations and the grain diameter. A maximum charge consists of six silk bags–hence the term bag gun–each filled with 110 pounds of propellant.


So, the powder could vary depending upon the distance needed and the weight of the projectile being used. With the full 660 lb powder load, you would be looking at 4,620,000 grains (weight).

Now, the *physical* powder grain obviously weighed more than a single (unit of weight) grain.

[Chev. William]

Don't forget the five pound Black Powder Booster attached to the breech end of each Bag of Powder for the 16" Guns. That makes the Total Charge 690 Pounds. Then there is the "Primer and Initiator Charge" Weights to add also.

All in All a 'Mighty Big Bang' of a Charge. And there were Three guns in each turret.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Traffer]

That's more powder than I use in a WEEK. hah hah

Don't forget the five pound Black Powder Booster attached to the breech end of each Bag of Powder for the 16" Guns. That makes the Total Charge 690 Pounds. Then there is the "Primer and Initiator Charge" Weights to add also.

All in All a 'Mighty Big Bang' of a Charge. And there were Three guns in each turret.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Traffer]

If I could fit the grains of powder from the 16" guns of the Battle ship. I could load 2 million 70 thousand rounds of 22lr with one charge of a 16" gun. That put's things in perspective. huh?

[Traffer]

I wonder if you can get milsurp bags o' powder from the battle ships? Um, I would like to order one 110 lb bag of powder please.

[NavyVet1959]

I wonder if you can get milsurp bags o' powder from the battle ships? Um, I would like to order one 110 lb bag of powder please.

I wouldn't mind having a couple of the physical grains of that power just to put on display. That's some pretty big grains.

Grinding those grains down to a size that would be usable in any firearms that I have though might end up being an exercise in blowing up kitchen blenders. :)

[BAGTIC]

Physical powder grains are called granules.

[Traffer]

Then it might go like this "I would like to purchase one granule of 16" battle ship gun powder. I need to load a couple hundred 22lr cartridges."

[NavyVet1959]

Then it might go like this "I would like to purchase one granule of 16" battle ship gun powder. I need to load a couple hundred 22lr cartridges."

I'm thinking "granule" just sounds too small when you're talking about that type of powder. Maybe "pellets" would be a better term... :)

[Traffer]

Perhaps one of these:
block (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/block)
noun. mass of material


bar (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/bar)
brick (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/brick)
cake (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/cake)
chunk (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/chunk)



cube (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/cube)
hunk (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/hunk)
ingot (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/ingot)
loaf (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/loaf)



lump (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/lump)
oblong (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/oblong)
piece (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/piece)
section (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/section)



segment (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/segment)
slab (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/slab)
slice (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/slice)
solid (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/solid)



square (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/square)









I'm thinking "granule" just sounds too small when you're talking about that type of powder. Maybe "pellets" would be a better term... :)

[Multigunner]

Dad's Blue Jackets Manual described an unusual shell for the 16 inch guns. It was from other sources I found a 4,500 pound hull buster, intended for shelling convoys of merchant ships. The concussion of the blast wherever it hit in the water was enough to cave in the thinner hulls of freighters at quite some distance. It could sink two or more ships if they were not too far apart.
Probably also good for sinking destroyers and torpedo boats too fast and maneuverable for making direct hits likely.
Range was about half that of the standard 16 inch shells.

I don't know if these were even still in inventory during WW2. I don't remember reading of any being used in that war.

[sirAIG]

Wait... So you bought your last brick of 22lr 15 years ago, and have gone through all of this to find a way to save 14-18 bucks a brick??? It is called inflation, as well as supply and demand. Last I checked, it is still the cheapest ammo to buy (per round) at wally. I'm just curious how you expect to remove the crimp, resize the case, and seat/crimp the projectile (another expensive custom mold) you've cast.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[NavyVet1959]

Wait... So you bought your last brick of 22lr 15 years ago, and have gone through all of this to find a way to save 14-18 bucks a brick??? It is called inflation, as well as supply and demand. Last I checked, it is still the cheapest ammo to buy (per round) at wally. I'm just curious how you expect to remove the crimp, resize the case, and seat/crimp the projectile (another expensive custom mold) you've cast.


Don't think it was 15 years ago... Probably 8 years ago... At least that seems about right on how long it's been since I've seen .22LR bricks so readily available that the stores were running ads with sales on them. And it wasn't just about saving money, it was about finding an alternative that might be available during times when .22LR ammo was not to be found. When .22LR ammo is more expensive than I can reload .38 and 9mm, then I don't shoot any of my .22LR firearms.

Actually, I don't expect to remove the crimp, resize the case, or seat and crimp the projectile. I'm experimenting with an alternative solution where the bullet and powder charge is loaded into the chamber separately. I also don't plan on using any other mold than the 55gr one that I already have. My testing so far with the .22 power loads (#1 and #2 power levels) has been good in a .22LR bolt action rifle. And the NAA mini-revolver works well with the #1 loads. With the #2 loads that I have, the rim is a bit thick and the cylinder will not rotate.

[Texas by God]

Bolus is a good word. A pill for sick cows. They are thumb size.

[Chev. William]

Trivia:
I believe "Cake" was the Term used when Black Powder was Made in Wet processing, with Water, to prevent it exploding while be mixed in a Mill/Grinder. The Final material was still wet when removed from the Mill/Grinder and was rolled out in Thin 'cake' on drying sheets and left alone until most Water had Drained/Evaporated off. at which time it was CAREFULLY Broken up and sieved to separate into various sizing groups/Batches for packaging into storage/shipping containers.
Also in 'wet condition' it could be formed in to sized, premeasured 'charge' 'grains' or 'shapes', for somewhat easier handling later.
Additionally, when mixed with additional Chemicals (Binders and Colorants) it is formed wet into shapes to be used as 'Stars' in fireworks.
From My Memory,
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[rbuck351]

The 22mag is where the savings can be considerable. Also, if the 25cal power load will fit the mag chamber, it will be as simple as dropping a boolit in the chamber followed by a power load. Pretty simple in a Contender and for a per round cost of about 1 cent rather than 25-30 cents for factory loads. And, you can use different weight boolits. Sounds like a win to me.

[Traffer]

I like bolus. Yup, good word. "Ill take one bolus of 16" Naval Gun Powder Please. Don't bother wrapping it I'll eat it here"
I think we have a winner here folks. In my mind from this time on a "granule" of 16" Naval gun powder will be known as a "Bolus" of propellant.
Thank you Texas by God.


Bolus is a good word. A pill for sick cows. They are thumb size.

[dverna]

The 22mag is where the savings can be considerable. Also, if the 25cal power load will fit the mag chamber, it will be as simple as dropping a boolit in the chamber followed by a power load. Pretty simple in a Contender and for a per round cost of about 1 cent rather than 25-30 cents for factory loads. And, you can use different weight boolits. Sounds like a win to me.

That is the way I see it as well.

I can reload 9mm and .38's inexpensively but the brass still needs to be salvaged, tumbled, and put through the Dillon. For a single shot rifle/pistol, loading a separate bullet and power load is not too inconvenient. And less than $.02 a shot is hard to beat.

[NavyVet1959]

The 22mag is where the savings can be considerable. Also, if the 25cal power load will fit the mag chamber, it will be as simple as dropping a boolit in the chamber followed by a power load. Pretty simple in a Contender and for a per round cost of about 1 cent rather than 25-30 cents for factory loads. And, you can use different weight boolits. Sounds like a win to me.

Well, the UPS guy just delivered the package... I didn't hear him ring the door bell, but it was left at the front door. Both 5K packages (brown and black color codes) were packaged in another box that was exactly the size of the two boxes. No additional packing materials whatsoever.

The brand of the power loads is "Omark" -- Brown is S3 Part #40171 and Black is S4 #40172. I believe that they were made by CCI. They have the "C" on the base of the power load and my research seems to indicate that CCI made the loads for Omark.

I'm curious though on what the power levels might actually be. According to the color charts that I've seen, brown should be a #2 load. Looking on the back of the .25 caliber power load box, it shows a circle with numbers from 1 to 12 (starting at 1 in the 7 o'clock position and ended with 12 in the 5 o'clock position. It has a large "3" in the middle and an arrow pointing to the smaller 3 that is on the edge of the circle. I interpret this to mean that it is a #3 load, but the brown color is supposed to be a #2 load.

I'll disassemble one of each and weigh the powders and post the powder weights, dimensions, and a photo them in a later post.

Searched around and found the NAA .22 mag cylinder to see if it would fit. My wife is off doing her stuff and I think she has the NAA with the .22LR cylinder with her so I won't be able to test fire it yet.

The .25 power loads fit in the .22 mag cylinder. They fit snugly though, no wobble in them at all once inserted. They are a close enough fit that once you put the power load in the cylinder, they will not drop out if you turn the cylinder upside down. They can still be removed with a small dowel pressed in from the front end of the cylinder with only slight pressure. The rim of the power load fits the cutout for the rim in the .22 mag cylinder very well. I would say that the power loads fit the cylinder well enough that you could carry a spare cylinder in your pocket for a way to "quickly" reload the NAA mini-revolver if you so desired without having to be concerned that the loads would fall out of the cylinder.

So far, I'm satisfied and believe it was a worthwhile gamble to buy 10K of these.

[Traffer]

I worked a little on the gun that will house these little gems today. Mine should be on Monday. Trying to thread the barrel by hand. Threading it to 3/4 10 NC. Really really hard to turn the die on the barrel. I might have to go to a 3/4 16 to be able to thread this thing. Once I get threaded I am going to make a receiver out of a 3/4" rod coupler. I hope it will hold. The barrel is from an old Marlin 60 with the chamber cut off. The bore was pretty bad so I honed it a little with grinding compound. Haven't slugged it but It doesn't seem to have gotten much bigger. You can still see the microgroove rifling easily. Just want to hurry up and get it done so I can shoot me some nail gun rounds.

[Lucky Joe]

I lightly load these .358 cal., 74 gr., boolits and replace the .22 with my .38 revolvers and rifle.
191435

[rbuck351]

The UPS guy got here late this evening with my case of black power loads. They fit nicely in my 22mag barrel for my contender. They are tight in three of my Ruger single six 22mag chambers and won't go in the other three so I put some 600 wet or dry on a dowel and honed them lightly until all were a push fit. I fired one in the Contender and all is well. I hope to set up the chrony tomorrow and see what they will do with 40 and 55gr boolits. I haven't shot the 22mags in several years because it costs about 5 times as much for the same results as my Hornets.

[flyer1]

The UPS guy got here late this evening with my case of black power loads. They fit nicely in my 22mag barrel for my contender. They are tight in three of my Ruger single six 22mag chambers and won't go in the other three so I put some 600 wet or dry on a dowel and honed them lightly until all were a push fit. I fired one in the Contender and all is well. I hope to set up the chrony tomorrow and see what they will do with 40 and 55gr boolits. I haven't shot the 22mags in several years because it costs about 5 times as much for the same results as my Hornets.

How will you keep the bullet from falling out of the front of cylinder of the single six? Thanks.

[rbuck351]

Cast and sized at .225 it's a snug fit in the cylinder throat. My 55gr nose rider boolit won't work because the nose sticks out the front of the cyl but I have a 40gr RN that stops about 1/8 inch short of the front of the cyl.

[flyer1]

Thank you.

[NavyVet1959]

The UPS guy got here late this evening with my case of black power loads. They fit nicely in my 22mag barrel for my contender. They are tight in three of my Ruger single six 22mag chambers and won't go in the other three so I put some 600 wet or dry on a dowel and honed them lightly until all were a push fit.

Kind of illustrates the inconsistencies in manufacturing when 6 holes that are done on the same gun at the same time are slightly different. Probably would have never noticed with regular ammo, but since we're right at the edge of manufacturing tolerance, we see the difference. On my NAA, I would say that the force required to put the power load in the cylinder is about like what it would be pushing it into a wet clay. Just enough resistance that it's not going to fall out, I guess. :) I didn't notice any difference in the 5 chambers.

[Traffer]

Wow, I just got mine. I measured one the diameter is .2420". A 22 mag Hornady 22 V-max measures .2360" That is .006" difference in the physical size. The Specs on 22 mag is .2420". That like everyone has been saying makes them either a very tight fit or just a fraction of a thousanth too large. My guess is that just about any 22 mag gun that has been fired quite a bit will chamber these charges. The bullet diameter on a 22mag is .224" the same as a 22lr and a Remington .223. And a quite a few other rounds. So .224 and .225 bullets and molds are plentiful.

[NavyVet1959]

I won a bid on eBay for a Remington 514 barrel (24.5" long) that is chambered in .22LR. No one else was bidding on it and I thought that just maybe I can use it to make a test barrel for the .25 or .22 power loads. Supposedly, the chamber end of those barrels are about 3/4" in diameter, so they would probably not have a problem with the pressure for *any* of the possible power loads, even the nickle cased ones (which I've never actually even *seen*).

[Traffer]

Wow I have a Remington 514 with a not so good barrel. Would you consider selling or trading that one? I have another Marlin 60 barrel (older version longer barrel) that has what looks to me a flawless bore. The barrel looks new except for a few bb sized rust spots. Let me know what you think.

[NavyVet1959]

Wow I have a Remington 514 with a not so good barrel. Would you consider selling or trading that one? I have another Marlin 60 barrel (older version longer barrel) that has what looks to me a flawless bore. The barrel looks new except for a few bb sized rust spots. Let me know what you think.

Shipping would make it not worthwhile. I sent you a link to another one that the seller had listed.

[NavyVet1959]

Assuming the original ad was correct, the breech end of the Remington 514 barrel looks like this:

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/remington-514-barrel.jpg

I'm thinking that could reduced section could be threaded and then a "chamber" could be screwed onto it that was just the size necessary for the .25 caliber power loads. I don't think my mini-lathe could do that though.

According to Lar45 in this post (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?41362-M95-Convert-Advice&p=447023&viewfull=1#post447023), the dimensions on the Remington 514 barrel are:
Max Barrel Width: 0.755"
Shank Width: 0.590"
Shank Length: 0.755"

[Traffer]

I don't know about threading with a lathe but if you tried to thread that with a hand die it would not go to but up to the ridge because the die thread cutters are tapered and you lose some. What I did was cut off the end, (marlin 60 is similar with a smaller chamber end) then take the taper off the barrel and then see what size I had for threading. My Model 60 barrel is 3/4". Regular rod couplers are 3/4- 10 so I am trying to thread 3/4-10 so I can screw a rod coupler on the end and either use it for the receiver or use it to connect a receiver to the barrel. It is dang hard to thread 3/4 10 on a barrel though without marking up the barrel. I figured out a way to hold everything but I do not have the strength to turn the barrel and die on each other. Next I will try longer handles on the barrel end to see if I can twist it with longer handles. If nothing works I am going to thread it to 3/4-16 which does not cut as deeply and should be easier to turn the die on the barrel.
I may try heating the barrel first also.

[Chev. William]

3/4-10 is UNC, 3/4-16 is UNF, so you are probably thinking of easy to find taps and dies.
My personal thought is to go with 3/4-20 UNEF as even easier, just takes more Looking for the tap and die to cut them. generally a 3/4 diameter Length of thread will give full fastener strength but a full diameter length would yield a 'safety margin' against stripping.

By turning a "root diameter" Groove for the die to run its tapered section on to at the End of the threaded section you can end up with full depth threads for the full threaded length of the barrel tenon and a Square face to tighten the "receiver" against.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Traffer]

Thank you very very much. What a great advantage it is to get advise from an expert. I have to restate this to make sure I understand what you are saying: Basically 3/4-20 would meet the strength needs of this project. And the conventional reasoning in tapping and threading says that the same length of threads as the diameter is as strong as it gets. 3/4 the diameter may be strong enough. And turning a groove at the end of the threaded area to the root depth of the thread will give me a square end to tighten up to. In my mind I see the threaded area having the threads matching the die being not quite as deep at the end of the threading as the beginning. and I see this as a good thing causing a very tight fit on the last half turn or so of the tightening. I can also increase the width of the cut root diameter groove to allow me to cinch the receiver to top dead center to get the sight and tap holes on the barrel to be in the right spot. I am going to go with the full diameter of the barrel as the length of the threads. I already priced out the 3/4-20 tap and die on eBay. I can get them both for a total of $18. Please correct any of this that I may have misunderstood. This is exciting. You just took 90% of the uncertainty of this project out for me.


3/4-10 is UNC, 3/4-16 is UNF, so you are probably thinking of easy to find taps and dies.
My personal thought is to go with 3/4-20 UNEF as even easier, just takes more Looking for the tap and die to cut them. generally a 3/4 diameter Length of thread will give full fastener strength but a full diameter length would yield a 'safety margin' against stripping.

By turning a "root diameter" Groove for the die to run its tapered section on to at the End of the threaded section you can end up with full depth threads for the full threaded length of the barrel tenon and a Square face to tighten the "receiver" against.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[NavyVet1959]

Well, I finally got around to disassembling the .25 caliber power loads tonight and weighed the powder charges.

The Omark "brown" S3 load had 1.4 gr of a charcoal colored flake powder in it and the Omark "black" S4 load had 1.6 gr of a powder that looked the same.

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/25-cal-omark-brown-s3-power-load-320w.jpg

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/25-cal-omark-black-s4-power-load-320w.jpg

Fired both of them in the NAA .22 mag revolver with no bullet and they were very quiet. Probably not enough back pressure being generated even with the crimped case.

Since the powder charges seem somewhat in line with the previous .22 caliber test, I decided to give it a try with bullets loaded in the .22 mag cylinder.

Apparently the cylinder is slightly larger deeper into the cylinder since the bullets loaded deeper than when I was using the same bullets in the .22LR cylinder. The bullets ended up being all the way to the end of the cylinder and that was with them just barely pressed into the cylinder. I test fired it this way and then test fired it with the bullets loaded base first. Loading them base first let me push them firmly into the chamber and still have around 1/8" to the front of the cylinder.

End result -- gun shows no damage and my fingers are still attached.

[Traffer]

I was planning on opening some of the ones I received. I got the S2 orange one weighed and had a medical interruption. However. I weighed the powder 3 times in different environments and got 1.88 to 1.9 grains each time. My scale could be bad, not sure. But this is a disturbing development for me. Here are comparison pictures to 22rf powder.

191624 191625191626191627191629

[Traffer]

And here is a video of me burning some Winchester Super X powder, Some Hodgdon HS-6 Powder (which is what I use to reload 22rf) and the Powder from the Omark nail gun power load S2. I don't know much about speed of powder burning and these were not all the same amounts of powder but it does show some difference. It appears that the speed of the burns are from fast to slow...Omark S2, Hodgdon HS-6, and the slowest being Winchester Super X 22lr powder. Again I am waaay no expert. What do you think?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lo74oatngjqtj9c/RimFire%20Powder%20Burns.MP4?dl=0

[rbuck351]

Unfortunately burning powder in the open doesn't tell much about it's relative burn speed in a cartridge or for that matter it's power output. I shot my Ruger single six 22mag with a couple cyls of 40gr boolits and 48gr boolits. No signs of extreme pressure and the cases pushed out reasonably easy and no split cases. Accuracy at about 20 feet was as good as I can do with iron sights and this gun. I still have to chrony them but they appear to be doing as well as 22lr if not better.

[NavyVet1959]

When I used the gradually tapered nail in the (non-rotating) drill press to open up the .25 caliber power load, it just opened it a small amount, so it took a few taps to get it all the power into the powder measure tray. I was thinking that if I had wanted to add powder to the power loads for even more power, I would need to make a very small powder funnel and the opened up crimp could be resealed with a small drop of hot melt glue from a glue gun.

I measured one of the .25 caliber power loads and the body of it was 0.242". I searched through my miscellaneous drill bits and came across one that measured 0.246". I think that means it's a size #D. I have no idea where I came across a drill bit in that size. I don't remember ever having a set of drill bits that were *that* extensive in their sizes. The #C drill bit is 0.242", so it would probably be better and then if I needed a bit more space, a bit of 600 grit paper on the chamber walls of whatever I was building.

[Texas by God]

I like bolus. Yup, good word. "Ill take one bolus of 16" Naval Gun Powder Please. Don't bother wrapping it I'll eat it here"
I think we have a winner here folks. In my mind from this time on a "granule" of 16" Naval gun powder will be known as a "Bolus" of propellant.
Thank you Texas by God.

You are welcome. A bolus will teach you where the molars of a bovine are.

[Chev. William]

Thank you very very much. What a great advantage it is to get advise from an expert. I have to restate this to make sure I understand what you are saying: Basically 3/4-20 would meet the strength needs of this project. And the conventional reasoning in tapping and threading says that the same length of threads as the diameter is as strong as it gets. 3/4 the diameter may be strong enough. And turning a groove at the end of the threaded area to the root depth of the thread will give me a square end to tighten up to. In my mind I see the threaded area having the threads matching the die being not quite as deep at the end of the threading as the beginning. and I see this as a good thing causing a very tight fit on the last half turn or so of the tightening. I can also increase the width of the cut root diameter groove to allow me to cinch the receiver to top dead center to get the sight and tap holes on the barrel to be in the right spot. I am going to go with the full diameter of the barrel as the length of the threads. I already priced out the 3/4-20 tap and die on eBay. I can get them both for a total of $18. Please correct any of this that I may have misunderstood. This is exciting. You just took 90% of the uncertainty of this project out for me.

Traffer,
your recapitulation reads like you understand correctly.
Best Regards,
Chev. william

[Chev. William]

When I used the gradually tapered nail in the (non-rotating) drill press to open up the .25 caliber power load, it just opened it a small amount, so it took a few taps to get it all the power into the powder measure tray. I was thinking that if I had wanted to add powder to the power loads for even more power, I would need to make a very small powder funnel and the opened up crimp could be resealed with a small drop of hot melt glue from a glue gun.

I measured one of the .25 caliber power loads and the body of it was 0.242". I searched through my miscellaneous drill bits and came across one that measured 0.246". I think that means it's a size #D. I have no idea where I came across a drill bit in that size. I don't remember ever having a set of drill bits that were *that* extensive in their sizes. The #C drill bit is 0.242", so it would probably be better and then if I needed a bit more space, a bit of 600 grit paper on the chamber walls of whatever I was building.

NavyVet1959,
In my experience twist drills seem to make holes slightly larger than their Measured drill body diameter.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Traffer]

Letter drills are available at a good hardware store for not much money. You should be able to get a "C" or "D" size for a couple of bucks each. What I would do is cut the hole smaller (if you are making a new hole) and enlarging it with a hand reamer. I plan to open the bore of a 22rf with reamers to the correct size. I have purchased many reamers in the size range of .195" to .226" and some metric starting at 5mm, I think i have 5.2mm. 5.6mm, and 5.7mm along with the decimal sizes. I think the most I have paid for a reamer is about $5.50 delivered. That is bought on eBay usually from China. It is probably easier to get metric sizes at cheap money because being made in China that is the standard there. I am including a really handy chart that I use all the time for working on making dies for the .22rf that I use. This chart is extremely handy. I must use this at a few times every day.

https://www.imperialsupplies.com/pdf/I_DrillSizeDecimalEquivalent&TapDrillChart.pdf


QUOTE=NavyVet1959;3997039]When I used the gradually tapered nail in the (non-rotating) drill press to open up the .25 caliber power load, it just opened it a small amount, so it took a few taps to get it all the power into the powder measure tray. I was thinking that if I had wanted to add powder to the power loads for even more power, I would need to make a very small powder funnel and the opened up crimp could be resealed with a small drop of hot melt glue from a glue gun.

I measured one of the .25 caliber power loads and the body of it was 0.242". I searched through my miscellaneous drill bits and came across one that measured 0.246". I think that means it's a size #D. I have no idea where I came across a drill bit in that size. I don't remember ever having a set of drill bits that were *that* extensive in their sizes. The #C drill bit is 0.242", so it would probably be better and then if I needed a bit more space, a bit of 600 grit paper on the chamber walls of whatever I was building.[/QUOTE]

[Traffer]

I opened up one of these so far. I drilled a 3/32 hole in the tip to start and inserted a pic to open it up. That worked pretty well. I have figured a way to attach a bullet to these things, I think. I am going to drill a hole in the tip as big as I can and still maintain the integral strength of the crimped area. Then I am going to fashion a die to swage bullets that have a shaft or tail on them that is slightly larger than the hole and stuff them in. They should hold good enough to be a one piece round. I love doing stuff like this. lol.

[NavyVet1959]

I opened up one of these so far. I drilled a 3/32 hole in the tip to start and inserted a pic to open it up. That worked pretty well. I have figured a way to attach a bullet to these things, I think. I am going to drill a hole in the tip as big as I can and still maintain the integral strength of the crimped area. Then I am going to fashion a die to swage bullets that have a shaft or tail on them that is slightly larger than the hole and stuff them in. They should hold good enough to be a one piece round. I love doing stuff like this. lol.

I think you could open them up to 3/32" easy enough without drilling and thereby adding brass chips to your powder. Just taper a 1/8" diameter nail very gradually and push it down into the center of the crimped area with a drill press. You might need to make two of them and on one of them have the starting diameter a little greater. Of course, set the stop on the drill press so that you don't end up hitting bottom on the brass with the point of the tool. :)

If we're talking single shot guns, I don't really see the advantage of reloading .22LR with the bullets attached to the power loads vs just loading them separately when you are shooting them. If you factor in the time it takes to create the rounds at home, then just having the separate and putting them together right as you are shooting them probably takes less time.

[Multigunner]

Why not just glue a hollow base bullet to the crimped area?
A air rifle pellet could be mounted this way ( .22 and .25 anyway), but I'm sure most want something more substantial when using the higher powered blanks.

[rbuck351]

I got a chance to play with some of the #4 power loads today for a bit. I haven't been able to get accuracy from my Ruger single six. I have a 22mag and a 256win barrel for my contender. Just dropping a bullet in the chamber followed by a power load doesn't give me very good accuracy. I made a wooden dowel with a stop, to push a bullet into the rifling a bit. This shows quite good accuracy at the 25feet or so that I was testing. The chamber insert I made for the 256Win pushes a boolit slightly into the rifling as well and fits against the base of the boolit when ready to fire. This shoots quite well also. I tried tipping the barrel up with the 22mag to get the boolit to sit against the power load when fired but accuracy was poor. Also, some of the loads had a weak report when not seated into the rifling. I think this is going to be necessary to get accuracy. So far breach seating the boolit into the rifling a bit has given consistant and fairly good accuracy.

[NavyVet1959]

Why not just glue a hollow base bullet to the crimped area?
A air rifle pellet could be mounted this way ( .22 and .25 anyway), but I'm sure most want something more substantial when using the higher powered blanks.

With anything other than the lightest power loads, you would end up with the skirt separating from the head of the bullet.

[rbuck351]

Yep I tried the 22cal pellets in front of a small pistol primer and had some leave the skirt right where it started.

[rbuck351]

I just checked vel on the #4 Black power loads behind a 70gr 25cal cast boolit in a 14" TC barrel and got the following:
948
965
967
962
965
average of 961 I quite happy with the results and for a cost of less than 1 cent per shot, I'll be using this a lot more than 22lr.

[Traffer]

Wow I would say that is outstanding for a 70 grain bullet. I feel like breaking out the bubbly. I just made my first prototype swaging die for making 40 grain .225" bullets that attach to the power loads. I am excited to see if they work.


I just checked vel on the #4 Black power loads behind a 70gr 25cal cast boolit in a 14" TC barrel and got the following:
948
965
967
962
965
average of 961 I quite happy with the results and for a cost of less than 1 cent per shot, I'll be using this a lot more than 22lr.

[Traffer]

OK, here are some pictures of my first prototype .25 cal power load with an attached swaged .224" (22lr) 40 grain bullet. They hold nicely. Seating places pressure back on the crimp of the power load cinching it around the shaft in the base of the bullet. I have the dies ready. Ready to start production. I need to make a die to open the power load cases yet. They are hard to open concentrically so I will make a die. These are high res so you can expand them for good detail.
191999192000192001192002

[rbuck351]

Good job Traffer
It will be interesting to see if they will handle the long jump through the .242 chamber and start straight in the barrel unless you are going to make your own chamber in a cutoff 22 barrel. The #4 power load should get a 40gr boolit moving pretty good.

[Traffer]

Pictures of the dies. first the base die. second the inner part of the base die, third base die with nose die, fourth base and nose dies together, and last the dies in the press.

192003192004192005192006192007

[dverna]

Nice work Traffer. Having the power load "clinch" the base of the bullet is genius. It should reduce pressure in the chamber and the skirt formed will act like a HB to seal the bore. Looking forward to seeing how these shoot.

[rbuck351]

I tested vel on 6 48gr .255 boolits using an 8" 22mag barrel on my TC and the Black #4 power loads. Average was 1249fps with a low of 1204 and a high of 1292.

[NavyVet1959]

I tested vel on 6 48gr .255 boolits using an 8" 22mag barrel on my TC and the Black #4 power loads. Average was 1249fps with a low of 1204 and a high of 1292.

.255 bullets in a .22 mag barrel? Seems a bit large... Did you resize them to something like 0.225" first?

According to the data over at BallisticsByTheInch, that looks to be a bit better than than .22LR and a bit less than .22 mag for that length barrel.

Emailed CCI about the color codes and power numbers a few days ago and got a response back today. They said that I should rely on the numbers, not the colors since the colors have changed over the years.

[rbuck351]

Yeah, I fat fingered the numbers and didn't proof read. Should have been .225.

[NavyVet1959]

Well, the Remington 514 barrel came in today and it looks to be in pretty good shape. It turns out that it is 24.75" long, which might actually end up being long enough that that with one of the .22LR rounds it is chambered for, you might actually end up *losing* velocity. :)

I think I'll initially test it with the .22 power loads. I would prefer not to modify the existing .22LR chamber, so I'm thinking that for the .25 caliber power loads, I'll create a sleeve that fits over the barrel's breech shank which also extends another half inch or so and that sleeve will be chambered for the .25 caliber power load. Ideally, this would be threaded and I would have an identical one for .22 caliber power loads so I could make direct comparisons, but I have not gotten to the point where I'm comfortable enough with my mini-lathe to try single point threading on it. So, for initial testing, I'll probably just make a slam-fire "receiver" for it. I'm not concerned with the inaccuracy that a slam fire design will give me since this is going to just be a hard mounted test barrel and the only accuracy it needs is to NOT hit the chrony from 10 ft or so. :)

[Traffer]

Well, the Remington 514 barrel came in today and it looks to be in pretty good shape. It turns out that it is 24.75" long, which might actually end up being long enough that that with one of the .22LR rounds it is chambered for, you might actually end up *losing* velocity. :)

I think I'll initially test it with the .22 power loads. I would prefer not to modify the existing .22LR chamber, so I'm thinking that for the .25 caliber power loads, I'll create a sleeve that fits over the barrel's breech shank which also extends another half inch or so and that sleeve will be chambered for the .25 caliber power load. Ideally, this would be threaded and I would have an identical one for .22 caliber power loads so I could make direct comparisons, but I have not gotten to the point where I'm comfortable enough with my mini-lathe to try single point threading on it. So, for initial testing, I'll probably just make a slam-fire "receiver" for it. I'm not concerned with the inaccuracy that a slam fire design will give me since this is going to just be a hard mounted test barrel and the only accuracy it needs is to NOT hit the chrony from 10 ft or so. :)
Sounds like a good plan. Could you make two extensions to pin on instead of threading? What is the diameter of the tenon? on the barrel? Hopefully it is a size that can be copied easily. If you are making an extension I think you will need a reamer the right size.

I wonder if the losing velocity thing would be lessened or done away with by using powder coated bullets. Since they are slicker than lubed lead it seems logical that they would not have as much of that affect. I just bought a new Chronograph. It is in the mail now. When it comes and when I can get everything together, I will compare everything identical except the powder coat to see if there is a difference from my 514.

I used an old die that I had set aside to make the 22cal bullets to crimp onto the .25" power loads. Just realized that it was discarded because it makes .228" bullets. Do you think it would be dangerous to drive those big bullets down a 22lr barrel with a #4 power load?

[Chev. William]

Run those .228" bullets through a sizing Die to bring their diameter down. Lee Makes Custom "Lube and Size Kits" that allow Pushing the Bullet straight though using a "Punch mounted on your reloading Press ram.
I found that I needed custom punch of about 1.520" length to push the bullets all the way through in one movement. Lee made me two of the Longer Punches as a Special order.
Perhaps you could make a special shape and longer punch to 'protect' the swaged base of your bullets?
Also, a CAUTION: Lube any bullet you intend to resize so it does NOT 'gall' and leave a residue in the die. I found this out when I tried to size some Jacketed bullets without any lube. a .250 sizing die became a .251" sizing die after cleaning the Copper out.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Well, the Remington 514 barrel came in today and it looks to be in pretty good shape. It turns out that it is 24.75" long, which might actually end up being long enough that that with one of the .22LR rounds it is chambered for, you might actually end up *losing* velocity. :)

I think I'll initially test it with the .22 power loads. I would prefer not to modify the existing .22LR chamber, so I'm thinking that for the .25 caliber power loads, I'll create a sleeve that fits over the barrel's breech shank which also extends another half inch or so and that sleeve will be chambered for the .25 caliber power load. Ideally, this would be threaded and I would have an identical one for .22 caliber power loads so I could make direct comparisons, but I have not gotten to the point where I'm comfortable enough with my mini-lathe to try single point threading on it. So, for initial testing, I'll probably just make a slam-fire "receiver" for it. I'm not concerned with the inaccuracy that a slam fire design will give me since this is going to just be a hard mounted test barrel and the only accuracy it needs is to NOT hit the chrony from 10 ft or so. :)

NavyVet1959,
Will your 'mini-lathe' handle turning a 2" chamber adapter?
If so, it would make things slightly easier overall.
You could bore a flat internal face at the bottom of a about 1-1/4" deep hole of suitable ID to take whatever thread you have on the Barrel tenon.
turn a 'groove in the ID at the internal Face to 'clear the Major thread diameter and about
1/4" long, leaving about 1" of the ID for threads.
Use a Taper tap to start the threads until the tip of the tap touches the flat internal face.
Replace The Taper tap with a Plug tap and cut the threads further until the tip of the Plug tap touches the internal face.
Replace the Plug tap with a Bottoming tap and finish threading by again touching the internal face with the end of the tap.
This should result in about 1" of complete Threads with no taper depth end threads in the bore.
if your Barrel tenon will not allow the 'Breech face of the Barrel to screw into this so it is in contact with the internal face, bore the outer end of the adapter Threads a little at a time until the Barrel Breach face and the internal face make contact.

Now Center drill the internal face and extend the center, with a stiff Drill bit, to a suitable depth of Hole concentric with the Bore.
Part off the Bored and Threaded section and reverse in in your chuck to machine the other end for your chamber Adapter.

The remainder of the machining would depend upon your choice of chamber and 'Breech' and 'bolt' design.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[rbuck351]

Navyvet
To make it simple,get a coupler nut ( very long nut) with the inside threads a little smaller than the OD of your barrel stub. Machine it out halfway through at the stub OD. Install it on the barrel stub using set screws installed in the machined out part of the nut. Now get a bolt that fits the inside thread of the nut. cut it off so that it fits against the back end of your barrel when screwed in and sticks the back end of the long nut far enough to add another nut. Drill the bolt through a little bigger than .225. Cut a chamber in the back end of the bolt for either the 22 power load or the 25 cal load. Or cut a second piece of bolt for a secong cal chamberNow another nut with a piece of bolt inside that has been drilled through for a firing pin. After loading you screw on the second nut with bolt and firing pin and hit the firing pin with a hammer. No threading and only a couple of simple lathe operations. If you have one of the Chineese 7x10 lathes, your chuck only has about a 5/8 through hole. Your head stock through hole is about .800 so the chuck will limit the size barrel you can work on with the 3 jaw chuck they come with.

[Traffer]

@ rbchuck and Chev.William
Those are both great ideas for me too. I have yet another extra barrel from a Marlin 60. I could use this as a .25 cal power load test barrel and continue the work on a 22mag for the other. That way I could use the test barrel for other projects as well. The idea of using a rod coupler reamed to the diameter of the tennon is real nice. Could use that to make a bolt for a regular 22lr also. As long as the barrel is already chambered for that. A person may even be able to mill slots in the coupler and on the bolt so it would work like regular locking lugs on a bolt gun... may not be strong enough for that.

[scarry scarney]

Ok, I broke down and bought my Grandaughter a cricket. It will be put away for a little while (she's only 18 mos). Found it on Gunbroker for $99. I just spent another $99 online getting accessories for it! Keystone even has "My first rifle" book, and a case made just for the little cricket and everything else. Maybe now I need to buy the case of 22 ammo (10 boxes of 325) from Midway @ $209 so Grandpa (me) will be ready. I am so looking forward to it......

[Traffer]

Ok, I broke down and bought my Grandaughter a cricket. It will be put away for a little while (she's only 18 mos). Found it on Gunbroker for $99. I just spent another $99 online getting accessories for it! Keystone even has "My first rifle" book, and a case made just for the little cricket and everything else. Maybe now I need to buy the case of 22 ammo (10 boxes of 325) from Midway @ $209 so Grandpa (me) will be ready. I am so looking forward to it......
Bless you, Happy Grandpa! Hope you and her have years of lovely time together with the little cricket.

[NavyVet1959]

Well, I tried putting the Remington 514 barrel in my lathe today, but it would not go in very far. The taper of the barrel increases quickly enough that the end of the barrel is till well beyond the end of my lathe. I think the limiting factor is the hole in the 3-jaw chuck.

But I did a test to see if a firing pin was necessary for the test rig and determined that having a flat surface against the rim and striking the other end of the flat surface will in fact cause the primer to fire. I had suspected as much, but I needed to test it to be sure. To keep my hand away from the brass in case it blew out, I used a piece of 1" diameter aluminum bar that was 2 ft long as the combination breech and firing "pin". I'll make the actual breech out of steel for the test rig, but this was just something that I had handy and required no modifications to use. Pretty quiet, even in my garage -- didn't even bother with ear plugs. Tested it with the #2 (brown) .22 caliber power loads.

[Traffer]

It can easily be an open bolt style gun. Much simpler than installing a firing pin. What did you use to ream the chamber? When you "shot" it with the aluminum breech block, was there a bullet in the barrel and did you have the breech block secure so it wouldn't "bounce" back? I thought the chucks on those lathes had a 2" hole. That should be plenty big for that barrel. Maybe it is getting stuck in the spindle?

[NavyVet1959]

It can easily be an open bolt style gun. Much simpler than installing a firing pin. What did you use to ream the chamber? When you "shot" it with the aluminum breech block, was there a bullet in the barrel and did you have the breech block secure so it wouldn't "bounce" back? I thought the chucks on those lathes had a 2" hole. That should be plenty big for that barrel. Maybe it is getting stuck in the spindle?

I did not ream the chamber, this was with the .22 caliber power loads that I previous had. I used the highest power that I had which normally causes extraction problems with the firearms that I've tested it in so far. No extraction problem from the Remington 514 barrel -- I could remove the brass from the chamber easily with a fingernail grabbing the edge of it.

I was using a 55gr bullet in the barrel for the test. It was seated about an inch deep. I had nothing to keep the "breech block" secure, just the inertia of it and the hammer with which I tapped the end of the aluminum rod and my fingers which were holding the end of the aluminum rod to keep it steady when I hit it. I tried another test with just a power load and no bullet to see how light of a hit directly on the primer would still make it fire. I used a small machinists hammer and what I considered a pretty light tap and no "breech block" and it still went off. You really don't need much of a hit to cause the primer to go off even when you are distributing the entire force of the blow around the entire edge of the primer. It might be interesting to create a vertical test rig with the barrel pointing downwards and drop a fixed weight from various heights to see what the minimum height would be in order to set off a rimfire primer when the striking force is distributed across the entire rim of the cartridge.

[NavyVet1959]

If you have one of the Chineese 7x10 lathes, your chuck only has about a 5/8 through hole. Your head stock through hole is about .800 so the chuck will limit the size barrel you can work on with the 3 jaw chuck they come with.

Yeah, that's what I discovered today when I tried to put the barrel in the lathe.

[Multigunner]

I made a similar test stand barrel many years ago using a pinned on tube with a flat faced bolt. I filed the breech end of the barrel so that a nub stood up to take the place of a firing pin. A throttle cable spring from an older model Volkswagon provided the striker power.
Before that I had also simply rapped the rim with a hammer firing it with no ill effects.

Slam fire .22 and .32 ACP caliber small game rifles were marketed in Europe long ago, a few found their way to the states. These rifles are way too easily converted to full auto so I guess they are on the BATF do-do list.

I think H&R once made slamfire .22 rifles, or perhaps it was High Standard. These were single shot with the bolt latching back after every shot.

[rbuck351]

Navyvet
Get a 4 jaw 4" for your lathe. If you have to, you can open the inside of the chuck to your mini lathe head stock through hole and be able to put anything in the lathe that will fit through the headstock. I bought the 14" bed for mine from "Little Machine Shop" which make the little lathe much easier to work with and about doubles the usable length of the bed. I also bought the 5" 4jaw chuck but found it to be so heavy that it sometimes trips the reset just getting things moving. I have done a lot of small projects on my mini and found it to be a very useful machine. Single point threading is a bit of an issue on the mini as there is no back gear and 60 rpm is about as slow as it will turn making pulling out at the end of a cut a bit touchy.
I'm having very good results with the 256Win chamber adapter, a black #4 load and a 70gr boolit. I won't be working with the 22lr but plan to continue working with the 22mag to see if I can get usable accuracy. Keep up the good work guys, there has to be a way to make this work.

[NavyVet1959]

I think H&R once made slamfire .22 rifles, or perhaps it was High Standard. These were single shot with the bolt latching back after every shot.

Apparently a couple of different manufacturers made open bolt .22s at one time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XZE_C5YCi4

[NavyVet1959]

Navyvet
Get a 4 jaw 4" for your lathe. If you have to, you can open the inside of the chuck to your mini lathe head stock through hole and be able to put anything in the lathe that will fit through the headstock. I bought the 14" bed for mine from "Little Machine Shop" which make the little lathe much easier to work with and about doubles the usable length of the bed. I also bought the 5" 4jaw chuck but found it to be so heavy that it sometimes trips the reset just getting things moving. I have done a lot of small projects on my mini and found it to be a very useful machine. Single point threading is a bit of an issue on the mini as there is no back gear and 60 rpm is about as slow as it will turn making pulling out at the end of a cut a bit touchy.
I'm having very good results with the 256Win chamber adapter, a black #4 load and a 70gr boolit. I won't be working with the 22lr but plan to continue working with the 22mag to see if I can get usable accuracy. Keep up the good work guys, there has to be a way to make this work.

Is that 14" in addition to whatever your current bed is measured or does it just replace what you have with 14"? Mine is already a 7x14.

[rbuck351]

It's a 14" bed like yours. I started with a 7x10 but by the time you add the chuck and tail stock there wasn't much space left to work with.

[NavyVet1959]

It's a 14" bed like yours. I started with a 7x10 but by the time you add the chuck and tail stock there wasn't much space left to work with.

It would be nice if they could make extension bed, but I can see how that would be difficult to get in perfect alignment with the original bed.

[rbuck351]

I saw pictures of one that someone had grafted a 7x10 bed on the end of a 7x14 bed. He had access to a milling machine which made things a lot easier to get straight. Even then there was a bit of shimming involved.

[Tracy]

I put a 5 inch 3-jaw chuck on my mini lathe, using an adapter from Little Machine Shop. It works fine. LMS also has a 4 inch 3-jaw chuck that has a .87 inch diameter through hole.

I thought they used to sell a 16 inch replacement bed, but couldn't find it when I looked a few minutes ago.
ETA: Here it is. http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=5000&category=

[Multigunner]

"Apparently a couple of different manufacturers made open bolt .22s at one time."

Neat video.

I saw one of those Marlin open bolt rifles many years ago.
A guy at the Stock yards had one he wanted to sell. From the looks of it the rifle had been used as a Hog rifle for killing hogs sent to slaughter for decades. It was black with grease and probably had no rifling left, but still worked or so I was told. I did not know till now that it was an open bolt gun.

The French gun in the video was also made in .32 ACP.