Colt police positive

[Tom W.]

I traded my RIA .45 for a lightly used Colt Police Positive in .38. I looked at some of the photos on Google and it showed some that look a whole lot different than what I bought. My understanding is that it is a 1977 model, no scratches that I saw and it locks up tight as a drum. I'll pick it up today or tomorrow. Now to get some brass and some bullets, then find a mold I like.........

[Outpost75]

You can go to the Colt website http://www.colt.com/Customer-Services/Serial-Number-Lookup and input your revolver serial number and it will tell you its year of manufacture.

Post 1972 guns are +P rated, but not the earlier ones: the following from http://www.grantcunningham.com/2006/05/can-my-colt-use-p-ammunition/

What Colt says
Post-1972 (shrouded ejector rod) models: The owner’s manual says that these guns are rated for +P ammunition. The manual calls for a factory (gunsmith) inspection every 1,000 rounds for the alloy models (Cobra and Agent), and every 3,000 rounds for the steel-framed guns (Detective Special, Police Positive Special, Diamondback.)

Pre-1972 (unshrouded ejector rod) models: None of the Colt guns with unshrouded ejector rods are rated by Colt for +P use. These guns, made prior to 1972, were sold before the advent of +P ammunition.

However, there are some other things to consider before you load your gun with that hot ammo!

What happens?

+P ammunition is loaded to higher pressures than standard .38 Special ammunition. This results in increased muzzle velocity and recoil.
When this ammunition is fired, it puts increased stress on the chambers and cylinder, and the frame is subjected to more force than normal. Colt “D” frame cylinders are certainly up to the task of containing the pressure, but the frames and action parts really take a beating. This means that the ratchet (ejector) and hand experience increased wear, shortening their life and requiring more frequent replacement.

For the alloy frames, not only do the action parts wear but the frame itself will stretch slightly. After a number of rounds, the frame may be so deformed as to result in headspacing problems. While the steel frames don’t generally stretch so much, the alloy frames will require replacement after a diet of +P. This increased wear is the reason for the re-inspection intervals given in the owner’s manual. To put it another way, your gun probably won’t suffer catastrophic failure from the use of +P ammunition (it’s SAFE to use), but wear will be greatly increased (it may not be very SMART to use.)

Should you use it?

First, if you plan to use +P ammunition in any Colt, it is imperative that the gun is within factory specifications in every respect. If there is any deficiency, the increased wear patterns from +P use can render the gun unusable or even unsafe in short order. Regardless of the model, you will experience increased wear if you use +P ammunition. Colt revolvers are not cheap to work on, and some parts are becoming quite scarce, so use should probably be restricted.

What do I recommend?
(What follows is based on my experience shooting, repairing and customizing Colt revolvers. Nothing written here is intended to be predictive, but is simply a recap of what I’ve observed. Use what follows at your own risk and expense.) For steel-frame models, I’d limit +P use to a few hundred rounds a year, and observe the 3,000 round inspection interval. I’ve found that, if the maintenance is done properly, this will result in many years of shooting service.

Regarding the alloy models, frame stretch is a major concern. In addition, the alloy frames will suffer more wear in the action than the steel guns because their lessened mass results in a higher recoil pulse. Since the alloy guns are so scarce, and replacing a stretched frame is essentially impossible these days, I recommend that you shoot very few +P rounds in them. If you plan to carry it, you can certainly shoot two or three cylinders full just to acquaint yourself with the increased recoil – then practice with regular pressure loads. Absolutely observe the 1,000 round inspection schedule, and make certain that the gun is in perfect condition beforehand.

What about the older models?
In general, I wouldn’t. Any of the pre-72 guns are now so collectible that it just doesn’t make sense to subject them to the pounding that +P ammo will give them.
But, should you insist…if the gun is a steel model made in the mid-50’s to late 60’s, it is probably strong enough that it won’t suffer catastrophic failure with +P loads. However, in my experience the pre-72 models have slightly softer metallurgy, which results in increased frame wear. Thus, it’s not a question of “will the gun handle it,” it’s more a question of how much expensive maintenance it will require! If it’s earlier than that period, or any pre-72 alloy frame model, “just say no.”

The bottom line
You don’t have to be afraid of +P ammunition, just understand that each +P round you put through your Colt will result in more wear than a standard pressure load.
It is up to you to maintain the gun appropriately.

[bedbugbilly]

Tom - go here - it will tell you quite a bit on the Colt PPs

http://www.coltfever.com/Police_Positive_Special.html

[Scharfschuetze]

Nice write up outpost. Thanks.

[reddog81]

Is the gun a Police Postive or Police Positive Special? There's a big difference.

[Tom W.]

Gonna pick it up today after work. I went to the shed and found some .38 special loads I had from the Security Six I used to have, as well as a box of factory loads. It may save on my lead costs now, I'll be making lighter boolits.

[Petrol & Powder]

Excellent write-up by Outpost.

Tom - I would recommend staying near the 158 grain bullet weight. While it's true that you can shoot lighter bullets in a 38 Special revolver and save a little lead, there are advantages to staying in the 150-160 grain range. For starters, the sights are regulated for 158 grain bullets.

The Colt Police Positive Special is a fine gun and at standard pressures the 158 grain bullets will do no harm. Outpost gave good info.

Good Luck !

[Outpost75]

Nice write up outpost. Thanks.

Thank Grant Cunningham. It's his writeup from his blog.

Very solid information which agrees with my experience as a 50-year Colt user.

Post 1972 shrouded barrel guns do well with the lighter 110-grain non+P loads like the Winchester Silvertip and will be to point of aim at 20 yards with those. AVOID +P+ LE loads like the Q4070 even in the post 1972 guns!

The 146-148-grain wadcutters will hit very slightly high in later guns, but close to the sights, and will be slightly low, but also close to the sights, in earlier pre-1972 guns.

[Tom W.]

I found a bit of history on the revolver. It is a police positive .38 special and was part of a collection that a local man had. He died and his kids spread his collection all over two or three cities. I'm going to wait and pick it up in a few more days, as I have a cardiologist appointment that needs to be tended to first.. and I just don't feel like shooting right now.

I do have to say that the revolver is probably NRA 95 % or so. Looks like it was a Safe Queen, with absolutely no holster wear. When I bring it home I'll try to post some pictures. Yes, I'm a bit excited.

Outpost, I was wondering about those lighter bullets, as there is a Lee mold that I can get that can be used in my 9 mm as well. My Ruger likes boolits sized .358 and the Glock eats anything.

[Outpost75]

Lee 105-grain SWC is one which is popular, but to me it is a bit light, because less than 115-grains may be problematic for reliable functioning in the 9x19mm pistols. Are you shooting cast in your factory Glock barrel or do you have one of the after-market Storm Lake barrels?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/458304/lee-6-cavity-bullet-mold-358-105-swc-38-special-357-magnum-38-colt-new-police-38-s-and-w-358-diameter-105-grain-semi-wadcutter

For .357, .38 Special and .380 ACP I use this one from Accurate. Weight is correct to shoot to the sights of later Colts. Use 5 grains of Bullseye in .357 brass, 4 grains in .38 Special, 2.5 grains in .380 ACP:
178606

[longranger]

Gem of a revolver,you did good with your trade.

[Tom W.]

My Glock 19 is stock, I haven't changed a thing on it. I use White Label Lube's carnauba red for bullet lube. Haven't seen any leading either....

[Tom W.]

Gem of a revolver,you did good with your trade.
Thank you. It's not often I get lucky. I seldom buy used firearms, but the few that I did buy were good. I'd class this one above good.....

[Tom W.]

178705178705. This is it. I ain't much on working this tablet though.

[Outpost75]

That is a terriffic revolver and one of the later +P-rated ones. Great score!

[Tom W.]

Thinking about getting a six cavity Lee wadcutter mold and babying this revolver. Never loaded any before, so I'll have to read up to see where the crimp goes. I'll size to.358 and see how that goes. I wanna shoot it but have to wait as I have to work Saturday......

[Outpost75]

A full-charge wadcutter with 3.5 grains of Bullseye is a great, basic load. Pick a double-end, bevel-based design which lets you seat the beveled band outside the case mouth so that eounds enter the cgambers easily with speed loaders.

[Petrol & Powder]

That's a beautiful revolver. I think you did really well.

[Blackwater]

I'm envious of you, Tom! Have always liked those guns. They're just such a nice size & wt. for carrying, and with good loads, can do most things a man might need to do when he's out and about in the woods, on the waters, or for CCW. I have a pre-72 DS, and it's a real gem, but can't take +P stuff. I keep it because I just love the little gun and its very slick action. Don't know if mine's been worked on or not, but it sure is smooth! I'd really feel a lot better if it'd take +P's, but I guess you can't always have everything, like you do with yours. Be careful if you have it worked on to slick it up. There are things that can be done to it that really knowledgeable 'smiths know not to do, that many still don't, that can create problems, and I believe parts are hard to come by for them. If you have it worked on, be sure you get a really good, Colt knowledgeable 'smith to do any and all work on it. I'll be exstatic if I ever fine one as nice as the one you have. But I keep looking. Congratulations! You've truly been smiled on in getting this one!

[Tom W.]

Thank you guys........ I'm really tickled about it. I still haven't had a chance to fire it yet, but I have fondled it a lot! I have two speed loaders that I used with my security six I had. One works fairly well with this revolver, the other can be wiggled around to work, but it isn't the right one. I have to find the proper ones for it..

[Outpost75]

Thank you guys........ I'm really tickled about it. I still haven't had a chance to fire it yet, but I have fondled it a lot! I have two speed loaders that I used with my security six I had. One works fairly well with this revolver, the other can be wiggled around to work, but it isn't the right one. I have to find the proper ones for it..

HKS 10-K loaders for the S&W Model 10 work with the Colt D-frame, but the DS loader optimized for it.

Correct HKS speed loader for the Ruger Security Six, Speed Six and Service Six is the M3, but the PY intended for Colt Python, Official Police and Officers Model Match will also work.

[Tom W.]

What is this I've been seeing about W C brass? What is different about it and where is it to be found? I've been loading since the early 70's, but I still get surprised every now and then.

[rintinglen]

I carried one of those when I was on the U.S. Customs Service. They are dandies!

[Outpost75]

What is this I've been seeing about W C brass? What is different about it and where is it to be found? I've been loading since the early 70's, but I still get surprised every now and then.

Wadcutter brass is thinner walled down to the approximate location of the base of the seated HBWC bullet, and is usually identified by a cannelure or two at about the mid-point of the case body. Its purpose is to prevent deformation of a soft lead bullet.

178863

More recent production brass is thicker walled in order to achieve heavier bullet pull with lighter weight jacketed bullets. The interior of the case wall starts getting thicker closer to the case mouth. When a soft lead bullet is seated in which seating depth impinges against the body wall taper where the case begins to thicken, soft bullet bases will be deformed and the bullet base may cause a bulge in the case body.

If you are unable to find once-fired wadcutter brass, the easiest thing is to measure and sort cases using a tubing micrometer, to identify those having a mouth wall thickness of 0.010" or less being uniform to a depth approximating the location of the base of the seated bullet. Better is to outside neck turn cases to a uniform 0.010" wall thickness to a depth of approximately 1/2".

[Tom W.]

I just got back from a local gun show. It wasn't the best I've ever been to, but I did come home with a box of S&B 148 gr. Wadcutter factory loads. First box of factory loads I've bought in many years.. I felt guilty........

[Blackwater]

For speed loaders, the HKS do a good job and are easier to load, but the Safariland ones are MUCH superior in action. They hold the ammo more rigidly, too, but take a little more time to learn to load quickly and reliably. Keeping a ball point pin in your pocket can help. But once the Safarilands click the rounds in place, they are significantly more secure, and they load into a gun MUCH faster and more reliably than the HKS models. When I shot PPC using full WC's, nobody used the HKS for very long, and they always got Safariland and never looked back. They're that much quicker, especially with WC's and SWC's. Align to rounds, shove them in until the centerpiece clicks and actually kicks them into the chambers, drop it & close the cylinder in one motion as you bring it back up to fire again, and you're back on target significantly faster than with the HKS. For SD and EDC, there'd really be no contest between them. I have 4 for my DS. I think you'll like them once you learn to load them, and that shouldn't take very long.

[FergusonTO35]

Anybody have an idea of which speed loader works for the six shot Rossi .38 and .357 revolvers? HKS 10's will function but the rounds are spaced a little wide to be optimal.

[Tom W.]

Shot some old loads I had after my hospital stint this afternoon . Mostly shot to the left. I didn't know what to expect , but I emptied some brass for reloading .. now to get a mold.....

[Petrol & Powder]

I committed to Safariland Speedloaders years ago and never looked back. Unfortunately they are not as common as the HKS type and I don't recall ever seeing Safariland loaders for a Colt. Not saying they don't exist, just cannot recall seeing them. I do have some HKS "DS" style loaders for the Detective Special or Police Positive Special Colts.

Once you've used Safariland Loaders and they become ingrained in your mind, you'll never go back to HKS unless you are forced to do so.

[35remington]

Call me a Luddite. I have Safariland and can use them effectively but I prefer the HKS for "beat on 'em" durability that the EDC speedloader needs. They are somewhat less fragile. The very slightly slower reload bothers me not at all because the difficult thing is the initial seating of the rounds and not in releasing them.

Practice with whatever you select in the dark. Reloads have to be sure and smooth and reliable. If they are then whatever speedloader you are using is suitable. I admit my reloads are the 358311 loaded to around 820 or better.

[Petrol & Powder]

35remington, I will not call you a Luddite because that would make me a hypocrite :drinks: .

The HKS loaders are clearly a simpler design and there is strength in simplicity. However, after years of using both types I settled on Safariland. The Safariland loaders are durable and in my experience, a little easier to use under stress (YMMV).
The HKS loaders are almost always less expensive than the Safariland types. The HKS loaders are far more common and they are available for more types of revolvers than the Safarilands. So there's some advantage there as well.

[robertbank]

I just got back from a local gun show. It wasn't the best I've ever been to, but I did come home with a box of S&B 148 gr. Wadcutter factory loads. First box of factory loads I've bought in many years.. I felt guilty........

Tom if you have initial problems seating primers in the S&B brass, toss them and save yourself a headache. I picked up 250 of them off our range, after running into their tight, possible crimped pockets I foolishly ran the batch through my Dillon pocket swagger and continued to use them. It was a fight not worth winning. Being frugal, I prefer frugal over cheap, I shot them until they split which took just over a year to get rid of all but about 50 I have left. I probably wasted more primers then the brass was worth.

If you are short I can send down 100 cases for you. I have quite a bit of 38 spl brass laying around that I can spare. PM me if you are interested.

Take Care

Bob

[Tom W.]

Thanks, Bob. I tried to send a pm, but it's been so long that I'm not sure if I did it right.

[robertbank]

Got it Tom and will get the pkge together over the week-end. Probably two weeks to your place.

Take Care

Bob

[Low Budget Shooter]

Safariland and HKS speedloaders for K frame work in Colt D frames like Detective Special, Cobra, Agent, and your PPS. I'm also a convert from HKS to Safariland.

[Tom W.]

I obtained a Lyman 2 cavity 148 gr. wadcutter mold in a trade. A set if my RCBS handles fit, so now when I get a chance I'll cast some boolits and figure out how to seat some.

[Blackwater]

35, your comments are appreciated here, too. And you're right, I do think the HKS are a bit tougher. After all, they're made of metal while the Safarilands are made of some polymer. The Safari's aren't delicate at all, but I'm pretty sure the HKS are tougher. For PPC, you never knew who you'd be shooting against, so you tried for every "advantage" you could. And thoe FNWC's seated even with the case mouth are notoriously hard to get in the chambers. The HKS have just enough play in them to let the rounds "rattle around" and move a bit, and this makes it more difficult to load those WC's into the cylinders. One or more rounds would wiggle just far enough to keep them from chambering readily. Some were better at using them with WC's than I was, and that had my lips pooched out for a while. I learned to align the tip of my right forefinger between two rounds as I shoved the loader toward the cylinder, and that helped me align it and speeded me up a bit.

The Safari's held the rounds more rigidly, and were faster to seat them, plus they tend when mashed down on the cylinder pin to shove the rounds into the chambers, which I liked. But I was with parole, and if I got into anything, it would likely be mine and mine alone to solve it, and I just wanted all the time advantage I could get. A street cop would likely go more for the HKS since they wrestle a lot more than I'd ever have been likely to have to do. So you make a good point. I think I still have all my HKS loaders somewhere, so it's not like I didn't like and respect them at all. So the toughness factor CAN make a significant difference one day. At my age, and with my infirmities, I still prefer the Safaris, but I don't have any quarrel at all with those who prefer the HKS's. They sure beat loose ammo or speed strips! I use the speed strips where I can to just carry extra ammo, and .38 WC's for snakes. Those loads leave a bigger hole in their heads, and drain the poison sacs better. I like that in a snake load. And if practiced, it only takes a couple of seconds to change out your ammo to take a snake when using the speed strips. In some matches, we used to be limited to those speed strips, and learning to load 2 at a time was a challenge at first with them.

As they say about getting to Carnegie Hall, the "secret" is "practice, practice, practice." It really does matter.