Drilling hollow point Lee 457-500 How Big?

[cumminsnut76]

Wanting to drill hollow points into my Lee 457-500gc book it. How big of a hole can I go realist ally? Can I end up with something.close to that 405-425 gun? Also with a very large HP what would be the best alloy to use? Shooting a TC Encore 20" carbine barrel. Hoping to shoot around 1500+ fps. What's your thoughts?

[PositiveCaster]

I drilled my RSBS 400 FNGC with a 3/16" drill about 3/8" deep. Can't remember the exact final weight, but I think it was about 40 grains less. You could use a 1/4" drill and drop more, or just drill deeper. I use air-cooled wheelweights, at a MV of 1400 fps the boolit expanded to the bottom of the hollowpoint, blowing off some pieces.


.

[Buckshot]

.............I assume you're planning on using a drill bit? The alloy of your boolit will play a part in how large (OD) or deep you can go. How do you plan on checking the boolit's performance expansion wise? Your velocity (1500 fps) isn't too far beyond BP ballistics (plus it has a GC) so the lead doesn't have to be any harder then WW type alloy. Say 11 - 15 bhn. Decide your means of checking expansion, then fire 3 rounds into it and see what you get. The harder you go the more likely the boolit will be to fracture and shed pieces of itself if it does expand. The closer to pure lead it is will yield a more malleable it will be, and less apt to shed petals.

I used to shoot my 577-450 Martini in our club's 200 meter silhouette 'Fun' events. My load was the 405gr Lee solid as cast then paper patched. It was cast of pure (very soft in any event) lead over 38.0grs of IMR 3031. This gave a velocity of 1250 fps. It would fetch the 200 meter ram with any hit. However, my point is that one time shooting that load at paper targets I could easily see where they were impacting in the sand berm. At the next line break I went out and managed to find 2 of the slugs. This was before digital cameras so no photos. Both of those slugs looked like miniature tea cups. Looking down inside them you could see the base of the boolit :-) They had mushroomed back perfectly. I never thought to weigh them, and there was obvious signs of scouring due to their passing through the sand. I'd estimate they were 6-8" behind the face of the berm?

So, that too might be an idea, paper patching pure lead slugs instead of HPing. Cast'em of soft lead, squirt them up through a Lee .452" size die and then paper patch them up to .458".

................Buckshot

[Outpost75]

Cavity geometry is important to proper performance. A center drill will work better than a straight drill bit.
On a .45 use a No.2 center drill run in just enough to cut a cup-point to the full diameter of the countersink and stop there.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The question is why you want to drill it. If it is to lighten the bullet to minimise recoil in a light firearm, I'd say about 1/10in. smaller than the lube grooves and up to about 1/4in. from the rear end. If there is any doubt about its standing up to the shock, you could fill the cavity with wax or hot melt glue.

If it is to produce an expanding bullet, however, that is far too much. Expansion beyond that of an ordinary medium-soft .457 bullet isn't really needed on anything deer-sized, and would make the bullet unreliable on anything larger and dangerous. I might drill it with an engineer's centre-drill, which has a short pilot drill of about 1/16in. diameter, followed by a 60 degree conical hole, extending close to the edge of the meplat.

[OS OK]

178481
[upside down again photos, sorry but I can't fix this problem, it just does it when it wants...cyberspace...huh!]

You can play with the hole size/depth easy enough, though drilling lead takes some control as it's not like drilling hard metals.
The thing about BHN...Me, I'd start around 10-11 BHN and would prefer PC'ing it too.

Yesterday I was trying a home brew mix of 30:1 made from primarily pewter for the tin part...I wanted 9 BHN to try in a Lyman .38/.357" HP mold where I had two different pin sizes/depths to look at in mushroom performance at low velocity, here 725-750 FPS. The mix measured 9.2 BHN on the day I made it and the next day, aprox. 24 hours later it was 9.8 when I cast and PC'd the HP's. I would imagine it will harden further to about 10.4 give or take some tenths...anyway it was too hard for the low-vel expansion however the larger hole that was shallower did fare better though they were both disastrous.
I shoot down a 10' long X 4" grey pvc pipe that is full of water...yeah, I get wet too with every shot it blows about a half gallon on me and I top it off and get wet again but it affords me a way to get the casts back 100% of the time.

good luck...hope you will report back with pics and data

charlie

[cumminsnut76]

Primarily it is to lighten the book it and reduce felt recoil. Also less gn's per boolit means more book its per pound. Mainly here in Missouri it is just to hunt deer and to mess around with. Not wanting to spend a lot on a custom mold so HP with a center drill sounds like a pretty cheap and affective way to do it. Also I have a large container full of rubber mulch to catch the boolit and check expansion.

[OS OK]

I use a mulch container too but it will not allow my HP's to expand like they do in water having the hydraulic force open the HP just as it would going into an animal or perp.

[44man]

Be very careful with the 45-70. The proper alloy or a soft nose with a hard base might be best. I stopped wanting to see a red mist block the sun and toss half a deer out.
That old timer will show you right quick what you have in your hands. You can make wrong choices and poke a hole and lose a deer or need a sponge to get your meat.

[Tackleberry41]

Might not get the performance you want. The whole needs to be centered to keep the balance. Something thats not easy to do in a drill press on a bullet. I have a lathe and while its easy to drill them centered, still alot of wasted effort. I have the same lee 500gr mold, tho not really in use as it needs to be leemented some more to cast proper sized bullets. If you want less weight, just get a lighter mold. I have the lee 405gr HB mold its $25. But I get really really nice HP bullets out of my NOE mold. They are 425gr solid and 390gr with a HP.

Not sure what your shooting those 45-70 out of. I can get that 390gr powder coated up to 2200fps out of an H&R.

[Forrest r]

It's the 1500fps/hole size that is going to mandate how your hp performs. You're thinking about taking around 75gr out of the bullet to make a hp cavity??

A little perspective:
I took a 220gr hb swc (429422) and used a forster hp tool to make a 3/16 hp with a 60* center drill and drilled the cupped hp deep enough to make a 10gr hp hole (drilled to the end of the drill/60* angle where the smooth shaft starts). The alloy for the 429422hp was 9bhn, did the same hp drilling for the raphine 195gr hbfn turning it into a 185gr hp hbfn that was 15bhn. As you can see the 9bhn expanded and the 15bhn did not.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/1c294e6c-d002-4b74-807e-5d6064902af9_zps8worlmj8.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/1c294e6c-d002-4b74-807e-5d6064902af9_zps8worlmj8.jpg.html)

The 220gr hbwc (upper right) has a 50gr hb. Solid wc='s 270gr/hollow base wbwc ='s 220gr. As you can see the 220gr hbwc 12bhn bullet shattered rather than expanded.

Same bullet/same load/same pistol, this time the bullet was 9bhn.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44hbwcaround.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/44hbwcaround.jpg.html)

More 44cal hp's:
The penta points (left) 800fps to 1000fps
The large round hp's 1000fps to 1200fps
The small round hp's 1200fps to 1400fps.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/93019292-24db-4523-9b6a-a1e9713f36e8_zpscuaszhrw.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/93019292-24db-4523-9b6a-a1e9713f36e8_zpscuaszhrw.jpg.html)

I know the op is asking about a different animal/caliber, the lyman 457122 is a 330gr bullet that has a .140" (5/32) hp pin and casts a 290gr bullet. Lyman mold pin sizes.
Pistol
30cal .100”
9mm/38/357 .125”
41/44/45 .140”
44/45 .156”
Rifle
22cal .070”
25cal .078”
32cal .100”
35cal .125”
.375 .125”
40cal & above .140”

The alloy is the easy part, 12-14bhn. Taking around 75gr out of a 500gr bullet to make a hp that will function at 1500fps, that's another story.

A link to a mihec mold (512-525gr bullet) it weighs 525gr with a solid nose, 495gr with a large hp pin & 510gr with a small hp pin. There's that 30/40gr hp range for the big hp lead bullets.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?284931-512-525gr-LFN-by-Mihec-in-Brass

Another heavy bullet (477-410gr) that has a 385gr hp. More big bullets with a 30/40gr hp hole.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?287389-MIHEC-477-640-CRAMER-HP-MOLD-(480-Ruger-475-Linebaugh)

Anyway a 75gr hole for a hp, absolutely.
1500fps from that bullet in a 20" bbl, absolutely.

Getting that huge hp to perform @ 1500fps, good luck.

[OS OK]

Well, there's your empirical data...wish there was one thread that had all this together in one place. I enjoy learning all the nuances of HP craft.

Those who purchase them and want to use std. WW's as usual are not realizing what is really going on until you read a post like Forrest r's here.

It's also proving that leading barrels is not all BHN, [shoot harder lead]...it's fit and lube or PC all working together.

Very nice work Forrest r.

[44man]

Shoot animals, not anything else. Then make an assessment. Your dead flat quarter size prizes might be the worst thing ever even on a little deer. What will it do on a huge, tough Buf? Grizzly. You live in fantasy with fairies. Sure look pretty with huge holes.
Never found any animal that agrees. Takes work that never ends. Most are in the jugs of water, sand and jello phase. WOW, destructive. But lost animals from stupid.

[Forrest r]

Shoot animals, not anything else. Then make an assessment. Your dead flat quarter size prizes might be the worst thing ever even on a little deer. What will it do on a huge, tough Buf? Grizzly. You live in fantasy with fairies. Sure look pretty with huge holes.
Never found any animal that agrees. Takes work that never ends. Most are in the jugs of water, sand and jello phase. WOW, destructive. But lost animals from stupid.

Nice post!!!
Glad to see your spidey senses are still working.[smilie=b: [smilie=b: [smilie=b:

I do find it interesting that you call yourself 44man and claim to be an authority on the 44cal's. But for some odd reason you can't even identify snubnosed loads/bullets from a 44spl. But that's what happens when you live in fantasy with fairies. You hunt Buf & grizzly with a snubnosed 44spl.

As far as the test media for those "quarter size prizes" as you call them. You guessed 3 times and all 3 are wrong. Can't fool you and that trained eye of yours!!!! Care to guess again??? Sooner or later you just might get lucky and guess correctly. :kidding:

To everyone else:
I'm doing nothing more than pointing out hole sizes in hp's from either pins/drill bits/center drills. Along with what 1 mfg has been using/selling for over 100+ years to make their hp bullets with. My results are just that, my results. Everyone should do their own testing. But it does help to do a little research and see what other people/mfg's are doing to try to find a starting point.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

178481


The left-hand of the two red bullets shows the sort of accidental flattening that can easily happen if the hole is large. A slice of bread doesn't fall as dependably with the buttered side down, as cartridges fall on their noses. I still think hollow points only have any point on the size and type of animals for which they aren't adequately consistent.

I agree, a drill press isn't accurate enough to give sufficient concentricity. I've made up a Morse taper socket to fit the hole where the circular table normally fits, and I have a Morse adapter to put my lathe chuck there. But while it is good enough for making dies, expansion and contraction are too much for this job. A lathe is needed to drill bullet cavities, front or rear.

It would be possible to make a simple die in which the bullet fits closely, and is pressed between a flat punch at the rear and one with a conical pimple at the front. You would end up with a slightly different ogive shape, but I think it would be more concentric than you could get by any improvised drilling technique. Such a die could be used in a loading press, or squeezed in a large vice.

178552

[Ballistics in Scotland]

On the subject of swaging with relatively little power, or hitting a die with a hammer, it is easier to get rid of big malformation than small ones. I think swaging from a flat-fronted but smooth cylinders would produce better bullets than starting with a wrinkly bullet. I also think it would take something more powerful than a reloading press, unless the product was to be small and soft, to control the weight by extruding surplus lead though a bleed hole.

[44man]

Nothing much to do with caliber as most work. It is velocity that changes what you shoot.
Too slow or too fast both benefit from some expansion. There is a point where a HP is an advantage and also a place where they fail.178557
I shot this one with a 420 gr HP, 50-50 oven hardened to 18 BHN, 45-70 revolver at about the velocity the OP wants. The shoulder was ruined and about fell off.
Then an entrance hole shot with the .500 JRH, 22 BHN boolit with just half the nose cast softer. 178558 1350 fps. 178559 Full hard 22 BHN boolit, .44 mag, 1316 fps.
I figure I know when to quit.

[44man]

Seems as if the HP fellas quit. Need to do more work on animals. I started with 240 XTP's on deer. I shot 3 and had no blood trails at all, backtracking. I seen them fall at 60 yards or more. Bullets recovered against the rib cage.178644
I learned a lesson. you think ENERGY DUMP kills, Get real. It is no better then the recoil you feel. Your HP's can have you crawl on the ground with tears. You killed but can't find.

[OnHoPr]

@ 44man post 17 - do you always aim for the shoulder? Do different boolits perform differently from varying shots and angles like broadside and quartering to in the shoulder? Or, broadside behind the shoulder through the slats and for the double lung? I would think the HP would work well for quartering away and broadside shots for the double lunger. The solid would be more apt for quartering to and generally any raking angle.

[44man]

@ 44man post 17 - do you always aim for the shoulder? Do different boolits perform differently from varying shots and angles like broadside and quartering to in the shoulder? Or, broadside behind the shoulder through the slats and for the double lung? I would think the HP would work well for quartering away and broadside shots for the double lunger. The solid would be more apt for quartering to and generally any raking angle.
No, shoulder hit was tracking a moving deer and she stopped at trigger break.
45-70 was more of a quarter then I seen so exit was the shoulder. I prefer behind the shoulder. Double lung and exit. Control energy inside the animal and get an exit hole is what works.
The old saw that a .45 is bigger then a .44 sucks.